Repost -- Eckankar plagiarism debate

[m***@yahoo.com]

JOEY writes:


Let's look at the line of the so-called evidence that Paul was being untruthful
or conducting a wholesale copying of someone elses ideas.

Paul wrote DOZENS of books.....on the subject of spirituality and how to reach
it in this lifetime.

In the precious few that are to have been alleged to be "copied" there are
certain passages which are remarkable similar.

DAVID LANE REPLIES:

Precious few? Here is just a partial list of books which contain
plagiarized material:

1. FAR Country
2. Tiger's Fang
3. Letters to Gail, volume one
4. Letters to Gail, volume two
5. Letters to Gail, volume three
6. Shariat-Ki-Sugmad, book one
7. Shariat-Ki-Sugmad, book two
8. Dialogues with the Master
9. The Flute of God
10. Herbs the Magic Healers
11. ECK-Vidya

and even more..........


JOEY writes:

O Not his entire
collection.....just a precious few.

DAVID LANE REPLIES:

SEE above.


JOEY writes:

The theme on which Paul stayed and the
theme of the so-called copied writings are distinctly different. Some topics
are the same but the general thrust is different.

Now if someone were to look ONLY at the writings there would be some credence
to possibility of copying a small smattering of topics. In other words, if
this were a footprint in the sand we wouldn't be able to distinguish who made
the footprint or which direction it was headed.

But if we go back to Paul's theme----spiritual liberation, knowledge, and
wisdom in this lifetime........firsthand knowledge by the way........then we
can begin to see a direction. Now we must ask the question---can these
techniques be implemented by folks so that they too can achieve the same
results.

So, regardless of who put them on paper, the big question is---do they work????
If they work then at the very minimum we have a valid teaching.

DAVID LANE REPLIES:

Hmm, plagiarism is still plagiarism.....
And, remember, Joey, Paul Twitchell threatened to sue J.R. over
"plagiarism."

And Eckankar today would most likely sue Michael Turner if he did a
Twitchell on them (he hasn't, since he could write much better than
Twitchell.... and I am serious on this point, since M.T. knows how
to put an original sentence together; I won't even mention Darwin's
wonderful writing ability here.)


JOEY WRITES:

There are tens of thousands of Eckists who attest to the first hand knowledge
of spiritual journeys, out of body experiences, and one to one contacts with
inner spiritual masters and esoteric truths from inner realities......this does
not even begin to address the positive, benevolent effect that the Eck
teachings have on ones day to day life.

DAVID LANE REPLIES:

Yes, so do most religions............ yet, plagiarism is still
plagiarism.............


JOEY writes:

Now we have another footprint. There are those who may attempt to invalidate
this footprint by saying that these experiences are the result of "believing"
what someone else has said. But this theory falls apart completely when it is
discovered that many Eckists had remarkable "inner experiences" before ever
hearing of Eckankar or Paul Twitchell. The contact with Eckankar and
tremendous acceleration of the inner experiences because of its implementation
only validates its authenticity. This I can speak of with unarguable authority
because it is my experience.

DAVID LANE REPLIES:

EAch shabd yoga path I have encountered (there are tens of them) say
almost the same thing, Joey.

Are they "all" right?

Or, are they tapping into something already pre-existing:

our brains?


JOEY WRITES:

So, now we have two footprints in the sand going in a specific direction. We
are left with question. Are Paul Twitchell's writings authentic or is he a
master counterfitter? We know the teachings are valid....because they
work.....not for everyone....but they do work amazingly well for those who seem
to have the innate or learned skills to implement them.

DAVID LANE REPLIES:

Try reading Wilber on this point: differentiating issues of
legitimacy with those of authenticity.

Geez, I even wrote a whole section on it in the MAKING....

Chapter 8.

THE MANIFESTATION OF REBAZAR TARZS


Authenticity, Legitimacy, and Deception

in the Study of Religion


Many followers within Eckankar today feel that the truth or underlying
message of their founder, Paul Twitchell, is valid, regardless of
whether or not his (or their) beliefs fit a historic and objective
purview. To such Eckists, the inner core of the teachings relates
a truth and a reality far superior to the shadowy contradiction it
casts in a fact-oriented world. Thus, when accusations of plagiarism,
cover-up, and fraud are labeled against their founder, devout
members dismiss the allegations under the pretext that it has
nothing to do with the real path, which is the ascension of the
soul into the higher "God Worlds."

But is this truly the case? Can we separate the factual world from
the inner spiritual realms? According to Ken Wilber, perhaps the
premier transpersonal philosopher in the world today, the answer
is no . Reality is not the exclusion of one conditional part from
another (as we find in the extreme case of dualistic Zoroastrianism),
but the very ground of being from which all conditions and events
arise. In this light, the material world and the spiritual planes
cannot be arbitrarily dissociated--rather they are inseparable and
complementary.

Therefore, any comprehensive study of new religious groups like
Eckankar, according to Wilber, must take into account two important
factors: 1) legitimacy , the degree of integration that a particular
religion offers. That is, how well does the group harmonize its
follower with the teachings, the membership, and the society at
large? And 2) authenticity , the determination of the
religion's real goals. Is it aiming for just a better world? Or
is it trying for the realization of higher planes of consciousness?
Wilber, in A Sociable God , elaborates more on these two important
elements:

Corollary: "Degree of legitimacy" refers to the relative degree
of integration, meaning-value, good mana, ease of functioning,
avoidance of taboo, and so forth within any given level. This is
a horizontal scale ; "more legitimate" means more integrative-meaningful
within that level.

Corollary: "Degree of authenticity" refers to the relative degree of
actual transformation delivered by a given religion (or world view).
This is a vertical scale ; "more authentic" means more capable
of reaching a higher level (and not merely integrating the present
level).

Ken Wilber, A Sociable God (New York: McGraw-Hill Book
Company, 1983), pages 60-61.


Wilber's methodology is important because it judges religious groups
on both its spiritual aims and its worldly interactions.
When we apply such a scale to Eckankar, we find that the group
is essentially an illegitimate expression (because of its
founder's denial of his real theopneusty) of an authentic
religious aspiration, the attainment of higher levels of
consciousness.
It is most likely on account of Eckankar's lofty aims that it draws
such an extensive following. However, what the group finally
delivers
is not the same as what it advertises.
First, Eckankar is not a unique path unduplicated anywhere in
the world, since, as we have previously noted, almost all of its
teachings and practices are derived from pre-existing movements.
And secondly, its founder, Paul Twitchell, does not qualify as a
genuine spiritual master since he not only disqualifies his
verdicality by copious lying, cover-ups, and plagiarism, but because
he also cannot live up to his own self-made criterion for a true Eck
Master.

Refer to SCP Journal: Eckankar--A Hard Look at a New Religion
(Berkeley, September, 1979) for a comprehensive breakdown of
Twitchell's inconsistencies in Appendix Number One.


Thus, in Wilber's critical model, Eckankar is illegitimate
simply because it cannot integrate its claim for a unique
revelation within the objective-rational world without contradicting
and ultimately invalidating itself. On the other hand,
Eckankar's claim for authenticity is a more complex issue.



The Manifestation of Rebazar Tarzs



Documented research indicates that Paul Twitchell created the
character Rebazar Tarzs, basing the monk's life story on the
biographies of Kabir, Shiv Dayal Singh,
Sawan Singh, Kirpal Singh, and several other real life gurus.
This finding, however, is known only to a few members in Eckankar.
Others, not conscious of this fact (and who are allegedly adept at
"soul travel"), claim to have extraordinary visions of the Tibetan,
describing in detail his appearance and peculiar dress.

The preceding issue raises an important question with regard to
Eckankar's claims for authenticity .
Can a religion which is proven illegitimate still be
authentic ?
More precisely, can Eckankar, though it is founded upon fraudulent
lines, nevertheless, deliver genuine spiritual experiences?
Surprisingly, the answer is both yes and no.

Yes , because it is theoretically conceivable that an earnest
devotee may have an authentic experience of a fabricated mystic in
higher planes of consciousness beyond the waking state.

For more on this issue, see "The Hierarchical Structure of
Religious Visions," Journal of Transpersonal Psychology
(Volume 15, Number 1); "The Himalayan Connection: U.F.O.'s and the
Chandian Effect," Journal of Humanistic Psychology (Fall
1984); and The Unknowing Sage: The Life and Work of Baba Faqir
Chand (forthcoming).

However, it is important to remember that the authenticity of
such an encounter has nothing to do with the image-content as such.
Rather, it is the structure of consciousness itself which
gives
numinous power to the experience. Whether or not a guru is a
literary invention or a historical personage matters very little
in terms of authenticity . (It does have an important role,
though, in determining the ultimate legitimacy of the encounter.)

Ken Wilber, A Sociable God , op. cit., pages 61-64.

Near-Death experiences, which are
replete with culturally bound visions, indicates that the
content of one's experiences may be unconscious projections
(Christians see Jesus, not Buddha; Sikhs see Guru Nanak, not
Mohammed; and so on), whereas the context or field of such
transpersonal interplay is superconscious and not due to cultural
restrictions.

Therefore, an Eckankar member may achieve a higher state of
consciousness and behold a vision of what he/she believes to be
Rebazar Tarzs.
But it is not the Tibetan monk who is bestowing the elevated
experience; rather, it is the devotee's own inherent capability for
advanced structural adaptation (manifested, for example, in
N.D.E.'s) which allows for such mystical heights.
Hence, the important point concerning the authenticity of
religious visions, as Wilber clearly points out, is not one of
content (structurally speaking, it matters little if one beholds the
Virgin Mary, Buddha, Krishna, or Fubbi Quantz), but of context.

See "The Hierarchical Structure of Religious Visions."


No , since Eckankar is illegitimate it has an inborn tendency
to
validate its spiritual claims in less than truly authentic ways.
For instance, many so-called religious visions reported by Eckankar
members of Rebazar Tarzs are nothing more than vivid images which
manifest quite normally while one is dreaming .
Simply because an image is of a holy or revered personage does not
qualify it automatically as a Divine manifestation.
A distinction must be made between subconscious (pre/dream-like) and
superconscious (trans/transcendent) manifestations.
If this is not done--as is often the case in Eckankar where most
dreams are elevated to spiritual experiences--a "pre/trans fallacy"
occurs, resulting in the confusion of infantile image with genuine
spiritual apparitions.

Ken Wilber has written a superb article on the
"pre/trans fallacy" in Revision (Volume 3, Number 2, 1980).


JOEY writes:


There is an individual who posts in this newsgroup from time to time who speaks
very fondly of his departed master and how none who have claimed to be his
predecessor are, in his words, a true genuine guru.

DAVID LANE REPLIES:

What does this mean?

I am completely lost by your point here.


JOEY writes:


Whereas when one Master in Eckankar serves his term, it becomes obvious to the
vast majority of Eckists who the next true teacher is......not because they are
asked to believe----but because they can see and know because of first hand
experience.

This then becomes the third and final footprint that proves that the writings
and teachings of Paul Twitchell are valid in their entirity.

Its just like standing at the edge of a sand dune. You look out across the
sand. You see the footprints leading directly to the ocean......the Ocean of
Love and Mercy. There may be those who attempt to blur the edges of an
individual print but there is no doubt to the source, the direction, and the
final destination of those footprints.

DAVID LANE REPLIES:

Joey, I realize that this post was more or less a rationale for your
beliefs and as such you are entitled to them.

But as a justification for plagiarism, it is just plain lame.....

sorry, but it is much easier to simply say,

"yep, Twitchell plagiarized and he shouldn't have."

[Galuuk]

Mahahaha extracts bits and pieces of some of my writings from 4 years ago. He
uses David Lane's attempted arguments to discount what I say, BUT as David Lane
did 4 years ago, Maha conveniently leaves out large sections of what was an
ongoing, much more detailed account from my end.
Specifically, although he mentioned it briefly, a very large and detailed part
of my message about the validity of the ECK teachings is that many, MANY
ECKISTS, like myself, had huge, very significant experiences with individual
ECK Masters PRIOR to ever hearing about ECKANKAR. Finding the identity and
names of these spiritual masters is a life altering event. David Lane has the
audacity to suggest that Rebezar Tarz is a fictiously produced character of
Paul Twitchell's imagination. David Lane's long winded explanation, citing
theories of Wilbur, doesn't take into consideration the hundreds, perhaps
thousands of ECKISTS who had very detailed and memorable experiences with
Rebezar PRIOR to ever hearing about ECKANKAR. All the theories in Medieval
Europe that postulated the flatness of earth didn't change the fact that
Magellan sailed all the way around the world in the early 16th Century.

David and Maha.....don't you realize how utterly stupid your theories and
opinions are when they don't match up with thousands of witness accounts. And
I'm just talking about the ones who had the experiences BEFORE hearing about
ECKANKAR.

Neither does Maha's account here nor David Lane's excuses years ago address how
I had significant out of body experiences that allowed me glimpses into the
future. The only place I've seen those same accounts is in Paul Twitchell's
writings. His writings verified what I saw. Events in our nation's history
over the past 30 plus years have verified some of what I saw. Other events
have yet to come to pass.

All David Lane's excuses and theories can't change that. Nor can any of Maha's
adolescent whinings refute them. Maha has blindly accepted David Lane's
theories and postulations and has become a true believer. As believers almost
always are, they can be the most fervant. It's when you experience truth in
its raw form and then later see it appear does truth lend itself to quiet calm
conviction.

It's what frustrates the Mahas and Kents and Jadoos of the world. They can't
shake someone who truly knows. They are destined to live their lives in utter
frustration with the brief exception of a highly unstable Sharon or delusioned
Colleen as their only claims to victory.

There's too many ECKISTS out there who've had their own experiences with the
teachings and the spiritual masters. Theories can't make them disappear. Once
a thousand people had sailed around the world, no Fuedal cleric, no matter how
demonstrative his actions, how threatening his words, was able to change the
tide of what people thought, and more importantly, was the real truth WAS and
IS.

Life is good. Any one life time is limited, but Soul is eternal and it always
prevails.


Joey

[Jadoo941]

Subject: Re: Repost -- Eckankar plagiarism debate
Date: 11/8/2004 4:28 PM Pacific Standard Time
Mahahaha extracts bits and pieces of some of my writings from 4 years ago.
He
uses David Lane's attempted arguments to discount what I say, BUT as David Lane
did 4 years ago, Maha conveniently leaves out large sections of what was an
ongoing, much more detailed account from my end.
Specifically, although he mentioned it briefly, a very large and detailed part
of my message about the validity of the ECK teachings is that many, MANY
ECKISTS, like myself, had huge, very significant experiences with individual
ECK Masters PRIOR to ever hearing about ECKANKAR. Finding the identity and
names of these spiritual masters is a life altering event. David Lane has the
audacity to suggest that Rebezar Tarz is a fictiously produced character of
Paul Twitchell's imagination. David Lane's long winded explanation, citing
theories of Wilbur, doesn't take into consideration the hundreds, perhaps
thousands of ECKISTS who had very detailed and memorable experiences with
Rebezar PRIOR to ever hearing about ECKANKAR. All the theories in Medieval
Europe that postulated the flatness of earth didn't change the fact that
Magellan sailed all the way around the world in the early 16th Century.
The first instance was found in an article in a copy of the old EWN (Eck World

News Magazine) from the early 70's.

Excuse me, calling "information" from an EWN letter "evidence", doesn't that
seem really strange even to yourself ? Come on...I personally know one person
who made one experience with "Tarzs" public in the "Letter of Light" a number
of years ago and who now admits that that
encounter was never as convincingly clearly Tarzs as he had described in the
article. PLUS the articles keep being edited to eradicate the last sources of
doubt. Some stories are downright
invented.

I no longer have the magazine
to refer to. The story was about a fellow who claims to have met Rebazar
Tarz (he did not have any prior knowlege of Rebazar or Eckankar at the
time of this meeting) in the parking lot of the church he was attending.

We'd have to get the fellow talk on the net today before we can even begin to
test his report on its quality as evidence. A thousand very vague cases doesn't
make even one piece of evidence.

Rebazar invited him to attend a meeting that Paul Twitchell was
conducting in a building across the street. And that was how he was
introduced to Eckankar.

It was probably Galib Yilmabazar, he looks a bit like the painting of Rebazar
Tarzs :)

So please, I asked for EVIDENCE !!!

The fellow related a story where he was a 'Center tender' at
the local Eckankar Center in San Diego, CA. A man came into the ECK
Center who looked just like Rebazar Tarz (according to his picture and
common Eckankar description).

Bill. Is this "evidence" ? Looked like Tarzs according to the picture. Please
look at the picture and tell me how unique that face is. Give me a rough
estimation on how many people in the world would fit inwith that picture. If
you ask me, I'd say, at least one out of ten thousand of the Spanish male
population would. That would amount up to at least 10 000 people on the planet
of Spanish decent only, which could go for Tarzs in the view of one who wants
to believe.

If your aquaintance would have been sure that the man had been Tarzs, why
didn't he prompt him for that ? Why didn't he say "Oh Tarzsji, how nice to meet
you" and ask for his blessing. Wouldn't that be the natural joyful reaction of
a chela who recognizes a master in his lineage ? What would have been wrong
with that ? I can tell you: the fellow didn't want to see his dream shattered
by getting proof that the guy is not Tarzs. He really didn't recognize Tarzs at
all, and how
could you, when all you have are those comic-book pictures.

He walked around the Center making small
talk with the Center tender. The Center tender offered his hand for
Rebazar to shake and Rebazar responded somewhat hesitantly but then
accepted the offer to shake hands. Rebazar left the Canter shortly
there-after. The Center tender believes this incident to be a result
of his personal wish to meet an ECK Master in the flesh.

Ok, here's an Eckist with a personal wish to meet an Eck Master in the flesh.
All-knowing Tarzs comes along to fulfill that wish and accepted the shake-hand
HESITANTLY ??????? Come on, Bill, let's use common sense. That man was
surprised by that unmotivated hand-shake offer, slightly enstranged, and left
pretty soon. If you were Tarzs and would show up to satisfy the man's wish, why
wouldn't you act a little more unmistakeable ? Doesn't make much sense, Bill,
besides you'd agree by now that that wouldn't pass for "evidence".

I will try and findthat wouldn't pass for "evidence".
I will try and find this fellow's name/address and forward it to you.

Spare me, I've seen "evidence" of that kind myself.

I appologize for not
taking better notes of these occations...

That's ok, you should apologize for calling that "evidence".

you can be sure I will in the
future :-)

Yes, please do so. Ask the persons very precise questions, some can remember
the size of the person, particular marks, and so on. You'll "find" much less.
Then, if you get to some core cases, look at the person's character. Is it
reliable ? Is his a sound mind. Can he recognize
faces pretty well ? My mother, e.g., wouldn't know the actor who played Spok in
Star Trek (what was his name ?) from David Caradine, even with glasses on,
that's not an exaggeration. Then we can take a closer look and begin with
investigation, which when tested may yield evidence. There's not one such case
in the history of eckankar, or eckankar would have made it public, as they do
with all those other experiences.

Cheers
Gunnar

[Ken]

Post by Jadoo941
So please, I asked for EVIDENCE !!!

You've already found the evidence you need, within.

Heck you write here about what you've found all the time. To expect
more, is (IMO) to misunderstand the nature of life. It's all subjective
and personal.

That's all that there is.

[Jadoo941]

Post by Galuuk
All David Lane's excuses and theories can't change that. Nor can any of Maha's
adolescent whinings refute them. Maha has blindly accepted David Lane's
theories and postulations and has become a true believer. As believers almost
always are, they can be the most fervant. It's when you experience truth in
its raw form and then later see it appear does truth lend itself to quiet calm
conviction.
It's what frustrates the Mahas and Kents and Jadoos of the world. They can't
shake someone who truly knows. They are destined to live their lives in utter
frustration with the brief exception of a highly unstable Sharon or delusioned
Colleen as their only claims to victory.
There's too many ECKISTS out there who've had their own experiences with the
teachings and the spiritual masters. Theories can't make them disappear.
Once
a thousand people had sailed around the world, no Fuedal cleric, no matter how
demonstrative his actions, how threatening his words, was able to change the
tide of what people thought, and more importantly, was the real truth WAS and
IS.
Life is good. Any one life time is limited, but Soul is eternal and it always
prevails.
Joey

Perhaps you'll listen to one of your former Elders in Eckankar if you can't
take the truth from us, Lane and Ford:

Dear friends,

I have been away from ARE for a number of years now, rarely stopping
in to see what is happening. During those rare moments, I saw the same
people saying the same thing all again, and thanked the Almighty that
I only wasted 6 years of my life being the resident swordsman of the
Sugmad defending the ECK teachings against the detractors.

In the last couple of weeks or so, I have started visiting again,
because I heard about Ford Johnson's book and wanted to see some
comments for or against. I did order the book, but it hasn't arrived
yet, hopefully any day now. In Canada where I live, it is taking
longer to get the book than if I were living in the US. I did read
through the links in some depth and perused a number of issues that
were presented by Ford in his excerpts of his book, and in some of the
links on his site. I was also glad to read some other excerpts that
were posted here on ARE that were not on his site.

I asked a long question that was eloquently answered by Ford about the
validity of ECK Masters that was posted on his site. Since someone
took the liberty of posting these questions on ARE, I presume that
this question will also make its way here in the next day or so. You
can identify my questions under the pen name, "Sparkle". Or, if you
don't want to wait, you can visit his site to see my questions and his
answers.

It may surprise some or all of you to know that I have recently left
the teachings of Eckankar. Actually, I sent in my official resignation
by fax only yesterday. I didn't ask for a 5 year leave of absence.
Just a final exit.

I enjoyed 30 years of what, to me, was the best path to God that I
could find on the planet. I still can't find anything better, to be
perfectly honest. However, I don't think it's any better than any
other one, that they are all pretty much what we make of them. So, a
disciple of Kirpal Singh would feel exactly the same about his path,
as would any Christian, Jew, or Mormon. Who was I to judge another and
say that my path was superior to his? I resonated very strongly with
Eckankar for about 27-28 years more or less, although I did have my
doubts and run-ins with the ESC hierarchy a few times which left a
sour taste in my mouth. Essentially, I internalized the path, and,
even though I was very active in the organization for around 25 years,
I never became too attached to the outer organization, preferring to
put my attention to my innermost experiences and sense of higher
consciousness. Nonetheless, recently I realized that I had, in a most
profound and subtle way, adopted many concepts of life and death that
were taught in Eckankar, none of which I have ever managed to prove
for myself. I did it anyways, because it seemed like a good idea at
the time, and it seemed to resonate with truth. However, now I am not
so sure what is truth, half-truth, and what is flat out lies. I am not
sure about a lot of things anymore. And I love being in this state!
Because at least I am standing on solid spiritual ground!

I have no intentions of becoming an anti-Eckist or detractor on ARE
telling everyone all the bad things about Eckankar. What I have found
is my own experience, and I am not angry, nor do I have any need to
share any of my ideas, other than in a generic sense as I am doing
here. I take full responsibility for all my actions, and I have never
been forced to accept anything from the Eck teachings. I did
everything with 100% free will, and have no regrets whatsoever. I
gained enormously in many areas of life from the tools that Eckankar
offered to me, including the meditation and contemplation techniques,
the leadership skills that I developed from helping the organization,
the increase in self-confidence, and spiritual awareness that I lacked
from previous paths that I followed. The list goes on and on what I
could say about the benefits that I came to experience and that made
me the person who I am today, which I am very happy with.

That being said, I now find it absolutely necessary to disassociate
myself with any spiritual path or religion that has a guru, God-man,
or leader who makes any kind of claim to exclusivity, or who states
that God has appointed him as a special agent, or anything else that
smacks of superiority in any way. It's all a bunch of garbage, as far
as I am concerned, and makes no sense whatsoever, in my present view
of the cosmos. There is only God and there is only love, and no one is
higher than another except through one's actual state of
consciousness, and not because of any association with any particular
organization.

I also cannot ever again associate myself with any organization whose
leadership is built on lies, cover-ups, half-truths, or any attempt to
coerce its students to remain on the path for fear of damnation if
they leave, and who use tactics of control, fear, and intimidation
with the students if the students don't follow the guidelines of the
organization 100%. This does not apply to Eckankar in particular, but
to ALL religions and spiritual paths that I have known and studied in
this life. In fact, most organizations and associations are like that,
even if they have nothing whatsoever to do with religion.a

I also find it necessary to find my own way back to God without any
intermediary telling me that I can't do it without someone else's
intercession. There are plenty of inner guides around and plenty of
Divine love around-more than enough- actually, to assist all souls on
their spiritual journeys home to God. Sure, we are oftentimes guided
by these inner beings to join a particular religion or spiritual path,
but that may be for a limited time only. Life was a spiritual journey
for me before Eckankar, and it continues uninterruptedly after
Eckankar. Whatever the "Mahanta" is or was, it was never anything that
was outside my own higher self, and that higher self, or Oversoul, has
never left me and is still with me, and the "ECK", or Divine spirit,
whatever that is, is still with me, and will never withdraw from me,
unless I personally allow it. It never belonged to Eckankar, and never
will. Eckankar cannot get any credit for anything that involved
raising or lowering consciousness. It can only receive credit for the
tools and assistance it offered, and we either used these tools wisely
or not, and made spiritual progress or not with or without these
tools. Some long time Eckists that I know didn't seem to use these
tools wisely, and, no matter how many initiations they have received,
they are still very much assholes to me, as shown by their behaviour
in their relationship with other people. One cannot hide one's true
state of consciousness behind an initiation or years belonging to an
organization. It takes a lot of work to develop true mastery, and
whatever path you are on, you can either make huge progress or none at
all. You can find your way back to the higher planes or not at all.
Showing your Eckankar or any other membership card at the door between
the lower planes and the higher planes is worth diddly-squat. It's
what you really are inside that counts, and that doesn't have anything
to do with God-men and organizations. It has to do with your own
ability to use any spiritual tools wisely and learn to achieve control
over your passions and learn unconditional love and experience the
truth of life, both by inner medidation and outer wise thinking and
right living.

Although I have not as yet read Ford's book, I do agree with most of
the issues that he has presented, and I do greatly look forward to
reading the whole book shortly. I do, however, disagree, to an extent,
with his explanation of why we see ECK masters when they are all
supposedly created by Paul Twitchell's vivid imagination. Although I
very much agree with Ford's (and David Lane's) explanation that we see
images according to our belief system), I find it presumptuous to
place all experiences including physical manifestation, lumped into
the same category of self-created experiences. That would mean
invalidating everything one experienced in the inner worlds, and would
be literally impossible to differentiate the real from the imagined.
Therefore, I am not as convinced as Ford that these "ECK Masters"
don't exist quite the way he explains it, although I certainly
understand where he is coming from. If, for example, Paul actually
invented Rebazar Tarz (I haven't read the book so I don't know as yet
what the proof is that he is invented, nor about any of the other
popular "ECK" masters that are alleged to be invented), and some
people actually experienced this being in the inner worlds or in the
flesh, I am hard pressed to find an accurate explanation for this
phenomenon. Although I entertain the possibility that it might be a
self-created thought form, I cannot be absolutely certain, and, as
long as I am not certain, then who am I to invalidate the experience
that someone had with this apparently non-existent being? The world
is full of unexplained phenomenon, and speculating about these things
is not very productive for me. What I am sure is that these ECK
masters, if they, in fact, exist, are not members of Eckankar, and
don't necessarily associate themselves with only members of Eckankar.
I am sure that members of Darwin's group have the same identical
experiences with these same "masters" as Eckists do, and many other
people, as reported in the various ECK publications, also have
experiences with them long before they join Eckankar, and I am sure
many have had such experiences that decided not to join Eckankar, but
we will never hear about them because they aren't around to send in
their testimonials for publishing.

Bottom line is that whether they are our own creation or not, they are
spirit's way to teach us something we need to learn, and they have
nothing whatsoever to do with any religion or path. They are simply
helpers, just like angels or any other inner guides are. Whether they
belong to some kind of higher inner order is another matter. I highly
doubt that, but it is possible, and if it is possible, again, this
order would not ever be exclusive to any group, path, or religion, but
would be a loose brotherhood (or sisterhood) of highly conscious being
who would help anyone who needs help. The idea that one must join an
organization or group to receive special spiritual benefits is
completely ridiculous to me, as is the idea that one can have one's
consciousness (a.k.a. initiations) lowered or raised by another person
or being, by giving or removing initiations. What I do believe is that
one earns one's right into the higher planes by spiritual living and
demonstration of higher consciousness living in every waking moment of
life. The very idea of initiations is meaningless to me, either inner
or outer. And looking at the behaviour of people who have been given
"higher initiations", it's plain to see that these initiations are
quite meaningless. There is absolutely no correlation between
initiations and personal spiritual conduct or consciousness. Of that,
I am very convinced, and, if I am wrong, then it's worth it for me to
challenge this idea and find out otherwise.


I just want to say one more thing. I want to offer a personal apology
to David Lane for trying to make fun of him for the 6 years I was on
ARE. I understand now that he was perfectly justified in what he did.
Sure, his research was sloppy, and there were plenty of half-truths,
but Eckankar was guilty of far more than that, and, for the most part,
Lane did bring out a lot of important points that are beyond dispute
that Ford has elaborated on. I was a different person then, pretty
much the zealot, as Kent Livingston put it (although no apologies to
Kent the way he tried to assassinate my character in vile ways-which
Lane never did!). So, David, my humble apologies to you for the
harassment I gave you all those years. At least, most were done with a
lot of humor and I never sent you any negative psychic energy or
otherwise tried to attack you that way (even though I did believe the
Kal had you deeply in his grip!!!!). I hope that you forgive me.

I think I have said enough. I will hang around for a few days or so to
answer any questions that I may feel like answering, and, after that,
I will be gone.


Cheers!

Nathan (Zafran)

[Jadoo941]

Subject: Re: Repost -- Eckankar plagiarism debate
Date: 11/8/2004 4:28 PM Pacific Standard Time
Mahahaha extracts bits and pieces of some of my writings from 4 years ago.
He
uses David Lane's attempted arguments to discount what I say, BUT as David Lane
did 4 years ago, Maha conveniently leaves out large sections of what was an
ongoing, much more detailed account from my end.
Specifically, although he mentioned it briefly, a very large and detailed part
of my message about the validity of the ECK teachings is that many, MANY
ECKISTS, like myself, had huge, very significant experiences with individual
ECK Masters PRIOR to ever hearing about ECKANKAR. Finding the identity and
names of these spiritual masters is a life altering event. David Lane has the
audacity to suggest that Rebezar Tarz is a fictiously produced character of
Paul Twitchell's imagination. David Lane's long winded explanation, citing
theories of Wilbur, doesn't take into consideration the hundreds, perhaps
thousands of ECKISTS who had very detailed and memorable experiences with
Rebezar PRIOR to ever hearing about ECKANKAR. All the theories in Medieval
Europe that postulated the flatness of earth didn't change the fact that
Magellan sailed all the way around the world in the early 16th Century.
David and Maha.....don't you realize how utterly stupid your theories and
opinions are when they don't match up with thousands of witness accounts.
And
I'm just talking about the ones who had the experiences BEFORE hearing about
ECKANKAR.
Neither does Maha's account here nor David Lane's excuses years ago address how
I had significant out of body experiences that allowed me glimpses into the
future. The only place I've seen those same accounts is in Paul Twitchell's
writings. His writings verified what I saw. Events in our nation's history
over the past 30 plus years have verified some of what I saw. Other events
have yet to come to pass.
All David Lane's excuses and theories can't change that. Nor can any of Maha's
adolescent whinings refute them. Maha has blindly accepted David Lane's
theories and postulations and has become a true believer. As believers almost
always are, they can be the most fervant. It's when you experience truth in
its raw form and then later see it appear does truth lend itself to quiet calm
conviction.
It's what frustrates the Mahas and Kents and Jadoos of the world. They can't
shake someone who truly knows. They are destined to live their lives in utter
frustration with the brief exception of a highly unstable Sharon or delusioned
Colleen as their only claims to victory.
There's too many ECKISTS out there who've had their own experiences with the
teachings and the spiritual masters. Theories can't make them disappear.
Once
a thousand people had sailed around the world, no Fuedal cleric, no matter how
demonstrative his actions, how threatening his words, was able to change the
tide of what people thought, and more importantly, was the real truth WAS and
IS.
Life is good. Any one life time is limited, but Soul is eternal and it always
prevails.

Young Kangaroo,

Read the following study & substitute "eck masters" for aliens. Even you will
get the point. Something is happening but it ain't Reb and it ain't Fubbi and
it ain't Wah Z. Actually, I'd say you experienced 'brain paralysis' rather than
'sleep paralysis'. If you get real spunky, compare Love, Phluff Michael
Wallace's bedroom rendevous with reb with the average abduction. Eerily similar
experiences.

Think, son, think. It's not too late....yet.

Abduction by Aliens or Sleep Paralysis?
Susan Blackmore

A Roper Poll claimed that nearly four million Americans have had
certain "indicator" experiences and therefore had probably been
abducted by aliens. But a study of 126 school children and 224
undergraduates shows knowledge of aliens is related more to watching
television than to having the relevant experiences.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------
------
If you believe one set of claims, nearly four million Americans have
been abducted by aliens. This figure has been widely publicized and is
often assumed to mean that millions of people have been visited by
members of an alien species and, in some cases, physically taken from
their beds, cars, or homes to an alien craft or planet.
Personal accounts of abduction by aliens have increased since the
publication of Budd Hopkins's books Missing Time (1981) and Intruders
(1987) and Whitley Strieber's Communion (1987). There is considerable
variation among the accounts, but many fit a common pattern. Wright
(1994) summarized 317 transcripts of hypnosis sessions and interviews
from 95 separate cases and concluded, "Numerous entity types have been
visiting our planet with some regularity" (Part 2, p. 6). However, the
"gray" is clearly the most common alien and over the years a typical
account has emerged (see, e.g., Mack 1994; Schnabel 1994; Thompson
1993).

The experience begins most often when the person is at home in bed
(Wright 1994) and most often at night (Spanos, Cross, Dickson, and
DuBreuil 1993), though sometimes abductions occur from a car or
outdoors. There is an intense blue or white light, a buzzing or
humming sound, anxiety or fear, and the sense of an unexplained
presence. A craft with flashing lights is seen and the person is
transported or "floated" into it. Once inside the craft, the person
may be subjected to various medical procedures, often involving the
removal of eggs or sperm and the implantation of a small object in the
nose or elsewhere. Communication with the aliens is usually by
telepathy. The abductee feels helpless and is often restrained, or
partially or completely paralyzed.

The "gray" is about four feet high, with a slender body and neck, a
large head, and huge, black, slanted, almond-shaped eyes. Grays
usually have no hair and often only three fingers on each hand. Rarer
aliens include green or blue types, the taller fair-haired Nordics,
and human types who are sometimes seen working with the grays.

The aliens' purpose in abducting Earthlings varies from benign
warnings of impending ecological catastrophe to a vast alien breeding
program, necessitating the removal of eggs and sperm from humans in
order to produce half-alien, half-human creatures. Some abductees
claim to have seen fetuses in special jars, and some claim they were
made to play with or care for the half-human children.

Occasionally, people claim to be snatched from public places, with
witnesses, or even in groups. This provides the potential for
independent corroboration, but physical evidence is extremely rare. A
few examples of stained clothing have been brought back; and some of
the implants have reportedly been removed from abductees' bodies, but
they usually mysteriously disappear (Jacobs 1993).


Theories
How can we explain these experiences? Some abductees recall their
experiences spontaneously, but some only "remember" in therapy,
support groups, or under hypnosis. We know that memories can be
changed and even completely created with hypnosis (Laurence, et al.
1986), peer pressure, and repeated questioning (Loftus 1993). Are
"memories" of abduction created this way? Most of Wright's ninety-five
abductees were hypnotized and/or interviewed many times. Hopkins is
well known for his hypnotic techniques for eliciting abduction
reports, and Mack also uses hypnosis. However, there are many reports
of conscious recall of abduction without hypnosis or multiple
interviews, and the significance of the role of false memory is still
not clear.
Another theory is that abductees are mentally ill. This receives
little or no support from the literature. Bloecher, Clamar, and
Hopkins (1985) found above-average intelligence and no signs of
serious pathology among nine abductees, and Parnell (1988) found no
evidence of psychopathology among 225 individuals who reported having
seen a UFO (although not having been abducted). Most recently, Spanos
et al. (1993) compared forty-nine UFO reporters with two control
groups and found they were no less intelligent, no more fantasy prone,
and no more hypnotizable than the controls. Nor did they show more
signs of psychopathology. They did, however, believe more strongly in
alien visitations, suggesting that such beliefs allow people to shape
ambiguous information, diffuse physical sensations, and vivid
imaginings into realistic alien encounters.

Temporal lobe lability has also been implicated. People with
relatively labile temporal lobes are more prone to fantasy, and more
likely to report mystical and out-of-body experiences, visions, and
psychic experiences (Persinger and Makarec 1987). However, Spanos et
al. found no difference in a temporal lobe lability scale between
their UFO reporters and control groups. Cox (1995) compared a group of
twelve British abductees with both a matched control group and a
student control group and, again, found no differences on the temporal
lobe lability scale. Like Spanos's subjects, the abductees were more
often believers in alien visitations than were the controls.

A final theory is that abductions are elaborations of sleep paralysis,
in which a person is apparently able to hear and see and feels
perfectly awake, but cannot move. The International Classification of
Sleep Disorders (Thorpy 1990) reports that sleep paralysis is common
among narcoleptics, in whom the paralysis usually occurs at sleep
onset; is frequent in about 3 to 6 percent of the rest of the
population; and occurs occasionally as "isolated sleep paralysis" in
40 to 50 percent. Other estimates for the incidence of isolated sleep
paralysis include those from Japan (40 percent; Fukuda, et al. 1987),
Nigeria (44 percent; Ohaeri 1992), Hong Kong (37 percent; Wing, Lee,
and Chen 1994), Canada (21 percent; Spanos et al. 1995), Newfoundland
(62 percent; Ness 1978), and England (46 percent; Rose and Blackmore
1996).


The Sleep-Paralysis Experience
In a typical sleep-paralysis episode, a person wakes up paralyzed,
senses a presence in the room, feels fear or even terror, and may hear
buzzing and humming noises or see strange lights. A visible or
invisible entity may even sit on their chest, shaking, strangling, or
prodding them. Attempts to fight the paralysis are usually
unsuccessful. It is reputedly more effective to relax or try to move
just the eyes or a single finger or toe. Descriptions of sleep
paralysis are given in many of the references already cited and in
Hufford's (1982) classic work on the "Old Hag." I and a colleague are
building up a case collection and have reported our preliminary
findings (Blackmore and Rose 1996).
Sleep paralysis is thought to underlie common myths such as witch or
hag riding in England (Davis 1996-1997), the Old Hag of Newfoundland
(Hufford 1982), Kanashibari in Japan (Fukuda 1993), Kokma in St. Lucia
(Dahlitz and Parkes 1993), and the Popobawa in Zanzibar (Nickell
1995), among others. Perhaps alien abduction is our modern sleep
paralysis myth.

Spanos et al. (1993) have pointed out the similarities between
abductions and sleep paralysis. The majority of the abduction
experiences they studied occurred at night, and almost 60 percent of
the "intense" reports were sleep related. Of the intense experiences,
nearly a quarter involved symptoms similar to sleep paralysis.

Cox (1995) divided his twelve abductees into six daytime and six
nighttime abductions and, even with such small groups, found that the
nighttime abductees reported significantly more frequent sleep
paralysis than either of the control groups.

I suggest that the best explanation for many abduction experiences is
that they are elaborations of the experience of sleep paralysis.

Imagine the following scenario: A woman wakes in the night with a
strong sense that someone or something is in the room. She tries to
move but finds she is completely paralyzed except for her eyes. She
sees strange lights, hears a buzzing or humming sound, and feels a
vibration in the bed. If she knows about sleep paralysis, she will
recognize it instantly, but most people do not. So what is she going
to think? I suggest that, if she has watched TV programs about
abductions or read about them, she may begin to think of aliens. And
in this borderline sleep state, the imagined alien will seem extremely
real. This alone may be enough to create the conviction of having been
abducted. Hypnosis could make the memories of this real experience
(but not real abduction) completely convincing.

(Note how similar the first part of this story is to Phluff's
purported meeting with Rebazar.) - Astral

The Roper Poll
The claim that 3.7 million Americans have been abducted was based on a
Roper Poll conducted between July and September 1991 and published in
1992. The authors were Budd Hopkins, a painter and sculptor; David
Jacobs, a historian; and Ron Westrum, a sociologist (Hopkins, Jacobs,
and Westrum 1992). In its introduction John Mack, professor of
psychiatry at Harvard Medical School, claimed that hundreds of
thousands of American men, women, and children may have experienced
UFO abductions and that many of them suffered from distress when
mental health professionals tried to fit their experiences into
familiar psychiatric categories. Clinicians, he said, should learn "to
recognize the most common symptoms and indications in the patient or
client's history that they are dealing with an abduction case" (8).
These indications included seeing lights, waking up paralyzed with a
sense of presence, and experiences of flying and missing time. The
report was published privately and mailed to nearly one hundred
thousand psychiatrists, psychologists, and other mental health
professionals encouraging them to "be open to the possibility that
something exists or is happening to their clients which, in our
traditional Western framework, cannot or should not be" (8).
The Roper Organization provides a service for other questions to be
tacked on to their own regular polls. In this case, 5,947 adults (a
representative sample) were given a card listing eleven experiences
and were asked to say whether each had happened to them more than
twice, once or twice, or never. The experiences (and percentage of
respondents reporting having had the experience at least once)
included: seeing a ghost (11 percent), seeing and dreaming about UFOs
(7 percent and 5 percent), and leaving the body (14 percent). Most
important were the five "indicator experiences": 1) "Waking up
paralyzed with a sense of a strange person or presence or something
else in the room" (18 percent); 2) "Feeling that you were actually
flying through the air although you didn't know why or how" (10
percent); 3) "Experiencing a period of time of an hour or more, in
which you were apparently lost, but you could not remember why, or
where you had been" (13 percent); 4) "Seeing unusual lights or balls
of light in a room without knowing what was causing them, or where
they came from" (8 percent); and 5) "Finding puzzling scars on your
body and neither you nor anyone else remembering how you received them
or where you got them" (8 percent).

The authors decided that "when a respondent answers `yes' to at least
four of these five indicator questions, there is a strong possibility
that individual is a UFO abductee." The only justification given is
that Hopkins and Jacobs worked with nearly five hundred abductees over
a period of seventeen years. They noticed that many of their abductees
reported these experiences and jumped to the conclusion that people
who have four or more of the experiences are likely to be abductees.

From there, the stunning conclusion of the Roper Poll was reached. Out
of the 5,947 people interviewed, 119 (or 2 percent) had four or five
of the indicators. Since the population represented by the sample was
185 million, the total number was 3.7 million -- hence the conclusion
that nearly four million Americans have been abducted by aliens.

Why did they not simply ask a question like, "Have you ever been
abducted by aliens?"? They argue that this would not reveal the true
extent of abduction experiences since many people only remember them
after therapy or hypnosis. If abductions really occur, this argument
may be valid. However, the strategy used in the Roper Poll does not
solve the problem.

With some exceptions,1 many scientists have chosen to ignore the poll
because it is so obviously flawed. However, because its major claim
has received such wide publicity, I decided a little further
investigation was worthwhile.


Real Abductions or Sleep Paralysis?
The real issue raised by the Roper Poll is whether the 119 people who
reported the indicator experiences had actually been abducted by
aliens.
Since the sampling technique appears to be sound and the sample large,
we can have confidence in the estimate of 2 percent claiming the
experiences. The question is, Have these people really been abducted?
The alternative is that they simply have had a number of interesting
psychological experiences, the most obviously relevant being sleep
paralysis. In this case, the main claim of the Roper Poll must be
rejected. How do we find out?

I reasoned that people who have been abducted (whether they
consciously recall it or not) should have a better knowledge of the
appearance and behavior of aliens than people who have not. This leads
to two simple hypotheses.

The Roper Poll assumes that people who have had the indicator
experiences have probably been abducted. If this assumption is
correct, people who report the indicator experiences should have a
better knowledge of what aliens are supposed to look like and what
happens during an abduction than people who do not report indicator
experiences. If the assumption is not correct, then their knowledge
should be no greater than anyone else's -- indeed, knowledge of aliens
should relate more closely to reading and television-watching habits
than to having the indicator experiences if abductions do not really
occur.

I decided to test this using both adults and children here in
Bristol. It might be argued that genuine abductees wouldn't be able to
remember the relevant details so I needed to use a situation that
would encourage recall. I decided to relax the subjects and tell them
an abduction story, and then ask them to fill in missing details and
draw the aliens they had seen in their imagination.


Method
Subjects were 126 school children aged 8 to 13 and 224 first-year
undergraduates aged 18 and over. The children came from two schools in
Bristol. They were tested in their classrooms in groups of 22 to 28.
The first group of 22 children had a slightly different questionnaire
from the other groups and, is therefore, excluded from some of the
analyses. The adults were psychology and physiotherapy students at the
University of the West of England tested in three large groups. The
procedure for the children is described below. The procedure was
slightly simplified and the story slightly modified for the adults.
I first spent about half an hour talking to the children about
psychology and research so that they got used to me. I then asked them
to relax -- as much as they could in the classroom. Many laid their
heads on the desks, some even lay down on the floor. I asked them to
imagine they were in bed and being read a bedtime story. I suggested
they try to visualize all the details of the story in their minds
while I read it to them. I then read, slowly and clearly, a story
called "Jackie and the Aliens," in which a girl is visited in bed at
night by a strange alien who takes her into a spacecraft, examines her
on a table, and brings her back unharmed to bed. The story includes
such features as traveling down a corridor into a room, being laid on
a table, seeing alien writing, and catching a glimpse of jars on
shelves. However, precise details are not given.

At the end of the story, I asked the children to "wake up" slowly and
to try to remember as much as they could of the details of the story.
I then handed out the questionnaires. Each questionnaire contained
five multiple-choice questions about the alien, the room, and table;
and the children were asked to describe what was in the jars and to
draw the alien writing. There were also six questions based on those
in the Roper Poll: Have you ever seen a UFO? Have you ever seen a
ghost ? Have you ever felt as though you left your body and could fly
around without it (an out-of-body experience, or OBE)? Have you ever
seen unusual lights or balls of light in a room without knowing what
was causing them, or where they came from? Have you ever woken up
paralyzed, that is, with the feeling that you could not move? And,
Have you ever woken up with the sense that there was a strange person
or presence or something else in the room? (Note that in the Roper
Poll, the question about paralysis was compounded with the question of
the sense of presence. Here, two separate questions were asked. Note
also that the last four of these questions were based on the indicator
questions from the Roper Poll.) The questions were slightly altered to
make them suitable for young children, and I did not ask about scars
or missing time. A question about false awakenings (dreaming you have
woken up) was also included, and two questions about
television-watching habits.

Finally, all groups except one of the adult groups were asked to draw
pictures of the alien they had imagined in the story.



Figure 1. Examples of a "gray" and several other imagined aliens,
drawn by children aged 8 to 13.

Results
Experience Adults Kids
Ghosts 14% 33%
OBEs 35% 33%
UFOs 8% 28%
False Awakenings 83% 57%
Sleep Paralysis 46% 34%
Presence 68% 56%
Lights 17% 28%
Table 1. Results of two surveys, with percentage of people answering
"Yes" for having had the experience indicated. See text for full
wording of questions.
Large numbers of both adults and children reported having had most of
the experiences. The percentages are shown in Table 1.
For each person, an "alien score" from 0 to 6 was given for the number
of "correct" answers to the questions about the alien (that is,
answers that conformed to the popular stereotype), and another score
for the number of Roper Poll indicator experiences reported (0-4).

For the children, the mean alien score was 0.95, and the mean number
of experiences 1.51. There was no correlation between the two measures
(rs = - 0.03, n = 101, p = 0.78). The drawings of aliens were roughly
categorized by an independent judge into "grays" and "others" (for
almost all drawings the category is obvious; see Figure 1). Twelve (12
percent) of the children drew grays and 87 did not. Not surprisingly,
those who drew a gray also achieved higher alien scores (t = 3.87, 97
df, p < 0.0001), but they did not report more of the experiences (t =
0.66, 95 df, p = 0.51).

Those children who drew grays did not report watching more television.
Nor was there a correlation between the amount of television watched
and the alien score (rs = 0.002, n = 101, p = 0.98). Oddly, there was
a small positive correlation between the amount of television watched
and the number of experiences reported (rs = 0.25, n = 101, p = 0.01).

For the adults, mean alien score was 1.23 and mean number of
experiences 1.64. Again, there was no correlation between the two
measures (rs = 0.07, n = 213, p = 0.29). Seventeen of the adults drew
grays, and 103 did not. Again those who drew a gray achieved higher
alien scores (t = 6.11, 118 df, p < 0.0001) but did not report more
experiences (t = 0.14, 115 df, p = 0.89).

Among the adults, those who drew grays were those who watched more
television (U = 534, n = 100, 17, p < 0.01), and the amount of
television watched correlated positively with the alien score (rs =
0.20, n = 217, p = 0.003).


Discussion
These results provide no evidence that people who reported more of the
indicator experiences had a better idea of what an alien should look
like or what should happen during an abduction. If real gray aliens
are abducting people from Earth, and the Roper Poll is correct in
associating the indicator experiences with abduction, then we should
expect such a relationship. Its absence in a relatively large sample
casts doubt on these premises.
Among the adults (though not the children), there was a correlation
between the amount of television they watched and their knowledge
about aliens and abductions. This suggests that the popular stereotype
is obtained more from television programs than from having been
abducted by real aliens.

Our sample certainly included enough people who reported the indicator
experiences. Although not all the indicator experiences were included,
for the four questions that were used, the incidence was actually
higher than that found by the Roper Poll. Presumably, therefore, many
of my subjects would have been classified by Hopkins, Jacobs, and
Westrum as having been abducted. The results suggest this conclusion
would be quite unjustified.

These findings do not and cannot prove that no real abductions are
occurring on this planet. What they do show is that knowledge of the
appearance and behavior of abducting aliens depends more on how much
television a person watches than on how many "indicator experiences"
he or she has had. I conclude that the claim of the Roper Poll, that
3.7 million Americans have probably been abducted, is false.

[Ken]

Post by Jadoo941
Abduction by Aliens or Sleep Paralysis?
Susan Blackmore

I've found Susan Blackmore to be a waste of time.

[cher]

Post by Ken

Post by Jadoo941
Abduction by Aliens or Sleep Paralysis?
Susan Blackmore

I've found Susan Blackmore to be a waste of time.

You too? I tried to read some of her works, but gee... what a closed
mind!

[Ken]

Post by cher

Post by Ken

Post by Jadoo941
Abduction by Aliens or Sleep Paralysis?
Susan Blackmore

I've found Susan Blackmore to be a waste of time.

You too? I tried to read some of her works, but gee... what a closed
mind!

I'm not surprised though that some of the critics here like her. She
claims to have all of the answers for everyone else, regardless of
personal experience.

[cher]

Post by Ken

Post by cher

Post by Ken

Post by Jadoo941
Abduction by Aliens or Sleep Paralysis?
Susan Blackmore

I've found Susan Blackmore to be a waste of time.

You too? I tried to read some of her works, but gee... what a closed
mind!

I'm not surprised though that some of the critics here like her. She
claims to have all of the answers for everyone else, regardless of
personal experience.

True! Odd how she actually started out with experiences and they lead to
these conclusions of hers. Seems like some people are just comfortable
with a sign on the door that says "door". Some change the sign to say
"do not enter". Others chose to walk through it as often as they can.

[sean]

Post by cher

Post by Ken

Post by cher

Post by Ken

Post by Jadoo941
Abduction by Aliens or Sleep Paralysis?
Susan Blackmore

I've found Susan Blackmore to be a waste of time.

You too? I tried to read some of her works, but gee... what a closed
mind!

I'm not surprised though that some of the critics here like her. She
claims to have all of the answers for everyone else, regardless of
personal experience.

True! Odd how she actually started out with experiences and they lead to
these conclusions of hers. Seems like some people are just comfortable
with a sign on the door that says "door". Some change the sign to say
"do not enter". Others chose to walk through it as often as they can.

LOL What may work in that situation is an automatic trap door in the floor,
right in front of the door. <smile>

[JS]

Post by cher

Post by Ken

Post by cher

Post by Ken

Post by Jadoo941
Abduction by Aliens or Sleep Paralysis?
Susan Blackmore

I've found Susan Blackmore to be a waste of time.

You too? I tried to read some of her works, but gee... what a closed
mind!

I'm not surprised though that some of the critics here like her. She
claims to have all of the answers for everyone else, regardless of
personal experience.

True! Odd how she actually started out with experiences and they lead to
these conclusions of hers. Seems like some people are just comfortable
with a sign on the door that says "door". Some change the sign to say
"do not enter". Others chose to walk through it as often as they can.

Nicely put!

--JS

[cher]

Post by JS

Post by cher

Post by Ken

Post by cher

Post by Ken

Post by Jadoo941
Abduction by Aliens or Sleep Paralysis?
Susan Blackmore

I've found Susan Blackmore to be a waste of time.

You too? I tried to read some of her works, but gee... what a closed
mind!

I'm not surprised though that some of the critics here like her. She
claims to have all of the answers for everyone else, regardless of
personal experience.

True! Odd how she actually started out with experiences and they lead to
these conclusions of hers. Seems like some people are just comfortable
with a sign on the door that says "door". Some change the sign to say
"do not enter". Others chose to walk through it as often as they can.

Nicely put!
--JS

Thank you sir. <smile>

[JS]

Post by cher

Post by JS

Post by cher

Post by Ken

Post by cher

Post by Ken

Post by Jadoo941
Abduction by Aliens or Sleep Paralysis?
Susan Blackmore

I've found Susan Blackmore to be a waste of time.

You too? I tried to read some of her works, but gee... what a closed
mind!

I'm not surprised though that some of the critics here like her. She
claims to have all of the answers for everyone else, regardless of
personal experience.

True! Odd how she actually started out with experiences and they lead to
these conclusions of hers. Seems like some people are just comfortable
with a sign on the door that says "door". Some change the sign to say
"do not enter". Others chose to walk through it as often as they can.

Nicely put!
--JS

Thank you sir. <smile>

Sir?

You are welcome, of course.

--JS

[Jadoo941]

Golly, what incisive and insightful deconstruction of the Alien Abduction cum
Eck Master Experience theory.


NOT!

If Hardly Klump told you eek masters come on spaceships you'd all be wearing
nike shoes and purple shrouds, now wouldn't you?

[Bee]

Post by Jadoo941
Golly, what incisive and insightful deconstruction of the Alien Abduction cum
Eck Master Experience theory.
NOT!
If Hardly Klump told you eek masters come on spaceships you'd all be wearing
nike shoes and purple shrouds, now wouldn't you?

Nuh!

[cher]

Geez gary... this one excited you so much you couldn't even write the
sentence coherently. <shaking her head> I wonder... if david lane told
you that the only way to disprove Eckankar was to drink koolaide while
wearing tennis shoes and a purple shroud if you wouldn't be the first in
line! <smile>

So what did you think of Susan Blackmore's role as "psychologist" to
UK's Big Brother show? Hmmmmm? <smiling> I guess when people start to
ingore your skeptic work, any big bucks gig will fill the checkbook...
hey? LOL.....

Post by Jadoo941
Golly, what incisive and insightful deconstruction of the Alien Abduction cum
Eck Master Experience theory.
NOT!
If Hardly Klump told you eek masters come on spaceships you'd all be wearing
nike shoes and purple shrouds, now wouldn't you?

[Rich]

One can debate about plagiarism endlessly. Joe, et al sure will.
But what are the facts with regard to Eckankar?



About twenty-five years ago I read David Lane's "The Making of a
Spiritual Movement". Like many that read it, for years I believed that
his information and conclusions on the plagiarism issue were accurate.

Fast forward to early 1998 where I had been going back and forth with
David on A.R.E. for more than a year. I was beginning to recognize that
some of David's opinions, couched as facts, where exaggerations. What
sparked a search for the unadulterated facts was when he said that 1/2
of The Far Country was plagiarized and that "was merely the tip of the
iceberg." So I picked up the book, counted how many paragraphs there
were and compared that to how many he listed in his book. It turned out
that it was less than a 1/3, but he refused to back off from his "tip of
the iceberg' claim, so I challenged him to put up all the paragraphs
side by side with those from other's books.

The criteria for the 'Plagiarism Contest'(his term) is as follows:

"To be submitted in the Plagiarism Contest, comparison quotes must be
posted here, or on the web, for all to see. No hearsay, suspicions,
guesses, opinions, page numbers, or unsubstantiated claims can be
accepted in the total number of paragraphs."

"Every benefit of the doubt is given to David Lane and detractors.
Numbers will be rounded off in their favor, and questionable paragraphs
will always err on their side. Partial paragraphs and even one sentence
quotes will be counted as a whole paragraph."


Many eagerly jumped in to help him. If it turned out that this was the
"tip of the iceberg",(only 10%) then they would gleefully be able to
cite thousands of paragraphs that could be documented as plagiarized.

Over three years later I did ballpark math on the totals as follows:

By my count there are about 1500 paragraphs in The Far Country. Most of
Paul's other major books are about the same size. Of course the
discourses and a few other things are smaller in size. To remove any
doubt, by erring in the extreme for fairness, I decided to use his
average writings as only 750 paragraphs.

According to David Lane, in his five years as ECK Master, Paul wrote
about 60 manuscripts. Like many of David's claims I suspected that might
be an exaggeration too, so I decided to again go to the extreme, to bend
over backwards in using only 30 as the number he wrote. In effect, that
would _double_ the percentage total.

At that time right around 100 paragraphs had been documented.(As of
today, maybe 60 more have been documented) Assuming that David was
accurate with the about 400 paragraph numbers he cited in his book, I
decided to include those too, and came up with this:

750 paragraphs
X 30 works
-----------
22,500 paragraphs that Paul wrote.

500 ÷ 22,500 = 2.2%

However, recently Doug did what no one has bothered to do before. He
actually checked the paragraph numbers David has given at the beginning
of Chapter One, against the two Julian Johnson books David referred to.
Out of the first 32 paragraphs that David identified as plagiarisms,
only 20% of what David claimed actually showed plagiarisms!

Be that as it may, the 400+ that David claims in "The Far Country" have
never be documented except as shown above. So if we add the 7(20%) from
above, with the additional 60 more, here's what we get.

167 ÷ 22,500 = .7%


Less that 1% of what Paul wrote has been *proven* to be plagiarized!


Keep in mind that _all_ these figures have been skewed _in favor_ of
plagiarism.

Some will certainly continue to find even this miniscule amount
egregious. Some will continue to imagine that vast amounts of what Paul
Twitchell wrote was plagiarized.
` o
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(___________/
Rich~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Sailing the CyberSea~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Post by m***@yahoo.com
Let's look at the line of the so-called evidence that Paul was being untruthful
or conducting a wholesale copying of someone elses ideas.
Paul wrote DOZENS of books.....on the subject of spirituality and how to reach
it in this lifetime.
In the precious few that are to have been alleged to be "copied" there are
certain passages which are remarkable similar.
Precious few? Here is just a partial list of books which contain
1. FAR Country
2. Tiger's Fang
3. Letters to Gail, volume one
4. Letters to Gail, volume two
5. Letters to Gail, volume three
6. Shariat-Ki-Sugmad, book one
7. Shariat-Ki-Sugmad, book two
8. Dialogues with the Master
9. The Flute of God
10. Herbs the Magic Healers
11. ECK-Vidya
and even more..........
O Not his entire
collection.....just a precious few.
SEE above.
The theme on which Paul stayed and the
theme of the so-called copied writings are distinctly different. Some topics
are the same but the general thrust is different.
Now if someone were to look ONLY at the writings there would be some credence
to possibility of copying a small smattering of topics. In other words, if
this were a footprint in the sand we wouldn't be able to distinguish who made
the footprint or which direction it was headed.
But if we go back to Paul's theme----spiritual liberation, knowledge, and
wisdom in this lifetime........firsthand knowledge by the

way........then we

Post by m***@yahoo.com
can begin to see a direction. Now we must ask the question---can these
techniques be implemented by folks so that they too can achieve the same
results.
So, regardless of who put them on paper, the big question is---do they work????
If they work then at the very minimum we have a valid teaching.
Hmm, plagiarism is still plagiarism.....
And, remember, Joey, Paul Twitchell threatened to sue J.R. over
"plagiarism."
And Eckankar today would most likely sue Michael Turner if he did a
Twitchell on them (he hasn't, since he could write much better than
Twitchell.... and I am serious on this point, since M.T. knows how
to put an original sentence together; I won't even mention Darwin's
wonderful writing ability here.)
There are tens of thousands of Eckists who attest to the first hand knowledge
of spiritual journeys, out of body experiences, and one to one

contacts with

Post by m***@yahoo.com
inner spiritual masters and esoteric truths from inner

realities......this does

Post by m***@yahoo.com
not even begin to address the positive, benevolent effect that the Eck
teachings have on ones day to day life.
Yes, so do most religions............ yet, plagiarism is still
plagiarism.............
Now we have another footprint. There are those who may attempt to invalidate
this footprint by saying that these experiences are the result of "believing"
what someone else has said. But this theory falls apart completely when it is
discovered that many Eckists had remarkable "inner experiences" before ever
hearing of Eckankar or Paul Twitchell. The contact with Eckankar and
tremendous acceleration of the inner experiences because of its implementation
only validates its authenticity. This I can speak of with unarguable authority
because it is my experience.
EAch shabd yoga path I have encountered (there are tens of them) say
almost the same thing, Joey.
Are they "all" right?
our brains?
So, now we have two footprints in the sand going in a specific

direction. We

Post by m***@yahoo.com
are left with question. Are Paul Twitchell's writings authentic or is he a
master counterfitter? We know the teachings are valid....because they
work.....not for everyone....but they do work amazingly well for those who seem
to have the innate or learned skills to implement them.
Try reading Wilber on this point: differentiating issues of
legitimacy with those of authenticity.
Geez, I even wrote a whole section on it in the MAKING....
Chapter 8.
THE MANIFESTATION OF REBAZAR TARZS
Authenticity, Legitimacy, and Deception
in the Study of Religion
Many followers within Eckankar today feel that the truth or underlying
message of their founder, Paul Twitchell, is valid, regardless of
whether or not his (or their) beliefs fit a historic and objective
purview. To such Eckists, the inner core of the teachings relates
a truth and a reality far superior to the shadowy contradiction it
casts in a fact-oriented world. Thus, when accusations of plagiarism,
cover-up, and fraud are labeled against their founder, devout
members dismiss the allegations under the pretext that it has
nothing to do with the real path, which is the ascension of the
soul into the higher "God Worlds."
But is this truly the case? Can we separate the factual world from
the inner spiritual realms? According to Ken Wilber, perhaps the
premier transpersonal philosopher in the world today, the answer
is no . Reality is not the exclusion of one conditional part from
another (as we find in the extreme case of dualistic Zoroastrianism),
but the very ground of being from which all conditions and events
arise. In this light, the material world and the spiritual planes
cannot be arbitrarily dissociated--rather they are inseparable and
complementary.
Therefore, any comprehensive study of new religious groups like
Eckankar, according to Wilber, must take into account two important
factors: 1) legitimacy , the degree of integration that a particular
religion offers. That is, how well does the group harmonize its
follower with the teachings, the membership, and the society at
large? And 2) authenticity , the determination of the
religion's real goals. Is it aiming for just a better world? Or
is it trying for the realization of higher planes of consciousness?
Wilber, in A Sociable God , elaborates more on these two important
Corollary: "Degree of legitimacy" refers to the relative degree
of integration, meaning-value, good mana, ease of functioning,
avoidance of taboo, and so forth within any given level. This is
a horizontal scale ; "more legitimate" means more

integrative-meaningful

Post by m***@yahoo.com
within that level.
Corollary: "Degree of authenticity" refers to the relative degree of
actual transformation delivered by a given religion (or world view).
This is a vertical scale ; "more authentic" means more capable
of reaching a higher level (and not merely integrating the present
level).
Ken Wilber, A Sociable God (New York: McGraw-Hill Book
Company, 1983), pages 60-61.
Wilber's methodology is important because it judges religious groups
on both its spiritual aims and its worldly interactions.
When we apply such a scale to Eckankar, we find that the group
is essentially an illegitimate expression (because of its
founder's denial of his real theopneusty) of an authentic
religious aspiration, the attainment of higher levels of
consciousness.
It is most likely on account of Eckankar's lofty aims that it draws
such an extensive following. However, what the group finally
delivers
is not the same as what it advertises.
First, Eckankar is not a unique path unduplicated anywhere in
the world, since, as we have previously noted, almost all of its
teachings and practices are derived from pre-existing movements.
And secondly, its founder, Paul Twitchell, does not qualify as a
genuine spiritual master since he not only disqualifies his
verdicality by copious lying, cover-ups, and plagiarism, but because
he also cannot live up to his own self-made criterion for a true Eck
Master.
Refer to SCP Journal: Eckankar--A Hard Look at a New Religion
(Berkeley, September, 1979) for a comprehensive breakdown of
Twitchell's inconsistencies in Appendix Number One.
Thus, in Wilber's critical model, Eckankar is illegitimate
simply because it cannot integrate its claim for a unique
revelation within the objective-rational world without contradicting
and ultimately invalidating itself. On the other hand,
Eckankar's claim for authenticity is a more complex issue.
The Manifestation of Rebazar Tarzs
Documented research indicates that Paul Twitchell created the
character Rebazar Tarzs, basing the monk's life story on the
biographies of Kabir, Shiv Dayal Singh,
Sawan Singh, Kirpal Singh, and several other real life gurus.
This finding, however, is known only to a few members in Eckankar.
Others, not conscious of this fact (and who are allegedly adept at
"soul travel"), claim to have extraordinary visions of the Tibetan,
describing in detail his appearance and peculiar dress.
The preceding issue raises an important question with regard to
Eckankar's claims for authenticity .
Can a religion which is proven illegitimate still be
authentic ?
More precisely, can Eckankar, though it is founded upon fraudulent
lines, nevertheless, deliver genuine spiritual experiences?
Surprisingly, the answer is both yes and no.
Yes , because it is theoretically conceivable that an earnest
devotee may have an authentic experience of a fabricated mystic in
higher planes of consciousness beyond the waking state.
For more on this issue, see "The Hierarchical Structure of
Religious Visions," Journal of Transpersonal Psychology
(Volume 15, Number 1); "The Himalayan Connection: U.F.O.'s and the
Chandian Effect," Journal of Humanistic Psychology (Fall
1984); and The Unknowing Sage: The Life and Work of Baba Faqir
Chand (forthcoming).
However, it is important to remember that the authenticity of
such an encounter has nothing to do with the image-content as such.
Rather, it is the structure of consciousness itself which
gives
numinous power to the experience. Whether or not a guru is a
literary invention or a historical personage matters very little
in terms of authenticity . (It does have an important role,
though, in determining the ultimate legitimacy of the encounter.)
Ken Wilber, A Sociable God , op. cit., pages 61-64.
Near-Death experiences, which are
replete with culturally bound visions, indicates that the
content of one's experiences may be unconscious projections
(Christians see Jesus, not Buddha; Sikhs see Guru Nanak, not
Mohammed; and so on), whereas the context or field of such
transpersonal interplay is superconscious and not due to cultural
restrictions.
Therefore, an Eckankar member may achieve a higher state of
consciousness and behold a vision of what he/she believes to be
Rebazar Tarzs.
But it is not the Tibetan monk who is bestowing the elevated
experience; rather, it is the devotee's own inherent capability for
advanced structural adaptation (manifested, for example, in
N.D.E.'s) which allows for such mystical heights.
Hence, the important point concerning the authenticity of
religious visions, as Wilber clearly points out, is not one of
content (structurally speaking, it matters little if one beholds the
Virgin Mary, Buddha, Krishna, or Fubbi Quantz), but of context.
See "The Hierarchical Structure of Religious Visions."
No , since Eckankar is illegitimate it has an inborn tendency
to
validate its spiritual claims in less than truly authentic ways.
For instance, many so-called religious visions reported by Eckankar
members of Rebazar Tarzs are nothing more than vivid images which
manifest quite normally while one is dreaming .
Simply because an image is of a holy or revered personage does not
qualify it automatically as a Divine manifestation.
A distinction must be made between subconscious (pre/dream-like) and
superconscious (trans/transcendent) manifestations.
If this is not done--as is often the case in Eckankar where most
dreams are elevated to spiritual experiences--a "pre/trans fallacy"
occurs, resulting in the confusion of infantile image with genuine
spiritual apparitions.
Ken Wilber has written a superb article on the
"pre/trans fallacy" in Revision (Volume 3, Number 2, 1980).
There is an individual who posts in this newsgroup from time to time who speaks
very fondly of his departed master and how none who have claimed to be his
predecessor are, in his words, a true genuine guru.
What does this mean?
I am completely lost by your point here.
Whereas when one Master in Eckankar serves his term, it becomes obvious to the
vast majority of Eckists who the next true teacher is......not because they are
asked to believe----but because they can see and know because of first hand
experience.
This then becomes the third and final footprint that proves that the writings
and teachings of Paul Twitchell are valid in their entirity.
Its just like standing at the edge of a sand dune. You look out across the
sand. You see the footprints leading directly to the ocean......the Ocean of
Love and Mercy. There may be those who attempt to blur the edges of an
individual print but there is no doubt to the source, the direction, and the
final destination of those footprints.
Joey, I realize that this post was more or less a rationale for your
beliefs and as such you are entitled to them.
But as a justification for plagiarism, it is just plain lame.....
sorry, but it is much easier to simply say,
"yep, Twitchell plagiarized and he shouldn't have."
--
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