JJ-0013 Jan 9, 2009 - Re - The fear-based curse that HK put on Darwin's materials

[Jonathan Johns]

This is a cross-post from the message board Eckankar Survivors
Anonymous
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous/message/4253
Jan 9, 2009 at 6:23 AM EST
The double line marks the beginning and end of the post

==========

Re: The fear-based curse that HK put on Darwin's materials

Prometheus,

I only carried your text forward, and not my original post.

"When Harold said that Darwin's photo and written materials were
dangerous or harmful, it was a fear-based curse that Klemp put on all
Eckists." Because from that point on, Eckists would be afraid of
Darwin's
materials. The fact that you and another person threw them out so
promptly
proves that the curse worked. The curse worked on me in the same
manner
because I had the same reaction. A short while ago I bought a copy of
"Your Right To Know." As soon as I unwrapped the package I went into a
severe state of fear and panic. So I put the book away and went to my
healer. It turned out that my fear was caused by the fear-based curse
that Harold Klemp put on Darwin's materials. My healer cleared
that "energy" from me. A few days later, I picked up Darwin's book
and read the first half of it with no problems. I was as calm as can
be. So these curses that Eckankar uses are real, but they can be
healed. The healing technique used was NET (Neuro-Emotional
Technique).

Regarding Harold's photo showing him much younger than he really is.
I agree with you. It might be his ego, but my take on it is that this
is a type of Madison Avenue Marketing that Eckankar Headquarters
dreamed up: "We want a young guy heading our religion, not some old
guy."

Your comment about Eastern gurus always having a photo and flowers is
right on. I was in TM before Eckankar and the way you described it is
absolutely right. I believe that this very common in India, and they
don't even think about it. But people should realize that not all
Hindus follow a guru, and I would say that the vast majority do not.
They go to the local Hindu temple. There are priests there. The
followers worship their supreme, omnipresent God (Ik onkaar). They
worship the Hindu Deities. There are rituals at the temple. They read
the Hindu scriptures. And that's about it. There are no gurus at the
temple.

I don't know specifically about Sikhism, but I would guess that it
might be similar. Sikhism certainly has gurus because Paul
Twitchell's teacher Kirpal Singh was a Sikh guru, not a Hindu guru.

Jonathan

==========

[wernertrp]

Post by Jonathan Johns
This is a cross-post from the message board Eckankar Survivors
Anonymoushttp://groups.yahoo.com/group/EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous/message/4253
Jan 9, 2009 at 6:23 AM EST
The double line marks the beginning and end of the post
==========
Re: The fear-based curse that HK put on Darwin's materials
Prometheus,
I only carried your text forward, and not my original post.
"When Harold said that Darwin's photo and written materials were
dangerous or harmful, it was a fear-based curse that Klemp put on all
Eckists." Because from that point on, Eckists would be afraid of
Darwin's
materials. The fact that you and another person threw them out so
promptly
proves that the curse worked. The curse worked on me in the same
manner
because I had the same reaction. A short while ago I bought a copy of
"Your Right To Know." As soon as I unwrapped the package I went into a
severe state of fear and panic. So I put the book away and went to my
healer. It turned out that my fear was caused by the fear-based curse
that Harold Klemp put on Darwin's materials. My healer cleared
that "energy" from me. A few days later, I picked up Darwin's book
and read the first half of it with no problems. I was as calm as can
be. So these curses that Eckankar uses are real, but they can be
healed. The healing technique used was NET (Neuro-Emotional
Technique).
Regarding Harold's photo showing him much younger than he really is.
I agree with you. It might be his ego, but my take on it is that this
is a type of Madison Avenue Marketing that Eckankar Headquarters
dreamed up: "We want a young guy heading our religion, not some old
guy."
Your comment about Eastern gurus always having a photo and flowers is
right on. I was in TM before Eckankar and the way you described it is
absolutely right. I believe that this very common in India, and they
don't even think about it. But people should realize that not all
Hindus follow a guru, and I would say that the vast majority do not.
They go to the local Hindu temple. There are priests there. The
followers worship their supreme, omnipresent God (Ik onkaar). They
worship the Hindu Deities. There are rituals at the temple. They read
the Hindu scriptures. And that's about it. There are no gurus at the
temple.
I don't know specifically about Sikhism, but I would guess that it
might be similar. Sikhism certainly has gurus because Paul
Twitchell's teacher Kirpal Singh was a Sikh guru, not a Hindu guru.
Jonathan
==========

Remember:
Those who fear the daemons should not join a cult.

[Jonathan Johns]

Those who do not want fear-based curses put on them should not join
Eckankar. Eckankar's "Bible," the Sharyat Ki-Sugmad, says that those
who leave Eckankar will suffer through the astral Hells.

[Rich?]

Face the fearful with no fear, and its fearfulness disappears.
- Chinese proverb.

<chuckle>
Trying to scare new people away from Eckankar by parroting Prometheus' fear
mongering about getting cursed? Watch out for your livers! You can't trick
the Gods and get away with it. Truthfully, if detractor stuff like this work
on someone, they are not ready for Eckankar anyway.

There were several fearful types here a long time ago that seemed to think
all Eckists were literalists and literally scared like them. I imagine they
still may be consoling each other at EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous

"To enter into the realm of God, one must be spiritually bold and
adventuresome!"
- Paul Twitchell The Flute of God pg.124

Post by Jonathan Johns
Those who do not want fear-based curses put on them should not join
Eckankar. Eckankar's "Bible," the Sharyat Ki-Sugmad, says that those
who leave Eckankar will suffer through the astral Hells.

[Jonathan Johns]

Rich,

This has nothing to do with parroting Prometheus. I figured out that
Eckankar's writings put curses on its members long before I left
Eckankar. I did not look at any of the anti-Eckankar message boards
such as ET (EckankarTruth) or ESA (Eckankar Survivors anonymous)
(Prometheus) until after I had left Eckankar.in December, 2008. I had
seen the homepage of ET, but I only saw the first five messages, and I
though there were only five messages on the entire message board. I
never saw ESA before I left Eckankar in December of 2008 So your
assertion that I am parroting Prometheus is completely wrong. I
figured ot Eckankar's curses by myself, years and years before I ever
saw any of Prometheus' post on ESA.

It was probably in the 1980s when I noticed that Paul's threats of the
astral Hells first adversely affected me. My first confirmation that
somebody else had noticed the same thing was when I read parts of Ford
Johnson's book "Confessions Of A Godseeker) sometime in the 2000-2008
time frame. But I had already figured out some of Eckankar's curses at
least ten years before I read Ford's book. Funny how I figured it out
independently of Ford Johnson. Funny how I figured it out
independently of Prometheus. I don't know whether Prometheus figured
it out independently of Ford Johnson, but I suspect that he did.

I discovered the same thing with regard to Prometheus over at ESA.
When I first started reading ESA I found out that Prometheus and I had
noticed a lot of the same things about Eckankar independently,
including Harold Klemps copying of Christianity.

Jonathan

[Jonathan Johns]

I forgot one thing. It is Eckankar who is doing the fear mongering.
Prometheus is doing a service to humanity by pointing out Eckankar's
curses before they join Eckankar.

But your reaction of blaming Prometheus fits in with how Eckankar
always blames anyone who speaks out and tells the truth about their
awful practices, instead of Eckankar taking responsibility for them

[Jonathan Johns]

A PDF version of Ford Johnson's book "Confessions Of A Godseeker can
be downloaded here:

http://www.archive.org/details/ConfessionsOfAGodSeeker
On the left side of the screen, click on 'PDF' and download it.

Ford Johnson was a member of Eckankar for nearly 29 years before he
left. He was THE most prominent speaker in Eckanka for much of the
time when he was a member. He was a seventh initiate when he left, and
had been a on Eckankar's Board of Trustees. I personally remember
around 1981-1983 Eckists at the local center raving about Ford Johnson
like he was Harold Klemp's right-hand man.

I personally saw him speak outside Eckankar around 1984 and found him
to be an honest, love-based individual. Unlike Paul Twitchell who
gladly put fear-based curses on people in order to control them and
keep them trapped in Eckankar.

[Jonathan Johns]

Correction. I saw Ford speak at the Rockville, Maryland Community
Center around 1994, not 1984.

[Rich?]

Post by Jonathan Johns
A PDF version of Ford Johnson's book "Confessions Of A Godseeker can
http://www.archive.org/details/ConfessionsOfAGodSeeker
On the left side of the screen, click on 'PDF' and download it.

I've got a hard copy.

Post by Jonathan Johns
Ford Johnson was a member of Eckankar for nearly 29 years before he
left. He was THE most prominent speaker in Eckanka for much of the
time when he was a member.

I went to most seminars for many years and that was not my experience. In
fact, when his book came out I didn't know who he was, but finally did
vaguely recall seeing him once, and not being impressed with his mental
approach.

Post by Jonathan Johns
He was a seventh initiate when he left, and
had been a on Eckankar's Board of Trustees. I personally remember
around 1981-1983 Eckists at the local center raving about Ford Johnson
like he was Harold Klemp's right-hand man.
I personally saw him speak outside Eckankar around 1984 and found him
to be an honest, love-based individual. Unlike Paul Twitchell who
gladly put fear-based curses on people in order to control them and
keep them trapped in Eckankar.

Like I said, you have created a different reality than mine. It seems you
made some unpleasant choices, but that's only what I know from what you have
written here.

[Rich?]

Post by Jonathan Johns
I forgot one thing. It is Eckankar who is doing the fear mongering.
Prometheus is doing a service to humanity by pointing out Eckankar's
curses before they join Eckankar.

LOL Threatening curses from Eckankar is not fear mongering? Suuure...

Post by Jonathan Johns
But your reaction of blaming Prometheus fits in with how Eckankar
always blames anyone who speaks out and tells the truth about their
awful practices, instead of Eckankar taking responsibility for them

Tell us what curses ex-Eckist have suffered? How many have found themselves
in Astral Hells?

I've asked this before and, except for a few that have psychological issues,
it seems none have actually had those experiences. Granted, fear can be a
big issue for some people even when the reality doesn't warrant it. Everyone
has little fears, but this? I and most all Eckists and ex-Eckists I know
were not trepidacious about karmatic reactions. In fact facing and resolving
karma is a basic part of the teachings.

I'm curious, how old were you when you joined Eckankar?

[Rich?]

Ok, my mistake. It sounded exactly like the same sort of thing I've seen
before, trying to scare newbies away from Eckankar.

So you are another one of the fearful types that are literalists? You really
believed you were going to suffer from a curse?

What has been the results of those curse(s) so far? What have the astral
Hells been like for you?

Post by Jonathan Johns
Rich,
This has nothing to do with parroting Prometheus. I figured out that
Eckankar's writings put curses on its members long before I left
Eckankar. I did not look at any of the anti-Eckankar message boards
such as ET (EckankarTruth) or ESA (Eckankar Survivors anonymous)
(Prometheus) until after I had left Eckankar.in December, 2008. I had
seen the homepage of ET, but I only saw the first five messages, and I
though there were only five messages on the entire message board. I
never saw ESA before I left Eckankar in December of 2008 So your
assertion that I am parroting Prometheus is completely wrong. I
figured ot Eckankar's curses by myself, years and years before I ever
saw any of Prometheus' post on ESA.
It was probably in the 1980s when I noticed that Paul's threats of the
astral Hells first adversely affected me. My first confirmation that
somebody else had noticed the same thing was when I read parts of Ford
Johnson's book "Confessions Of A Godseeker) sometime in the 2000-2008
time frame. But I had already figured out some of Eckankar's curses at
least ten years before I read Ford's book. Funny how I figured it out
independently of Ford Johnson. Funny how I figured it out
independently of Prometheus. I don't know whether Prometheus figured
it out independently of Ford Johnson, but I suspect that he did.
I discovered the same thing with regard to Prometheus over at ESA.
When I first started reading ESA I found out that Prometheus and I had
noticed a lot of the same things about Eckankar independently,
including Harold Klemps copying of Christianity.
Jonathan

[Etznab]

Post by Rich?
Ok, my mistake. It sounded exactly like the same sort of thing I've seen
before, trying to scare newbies away from Eckankar.
So you are another one of the fearful types that are literalists? You really
believed you were going to suffer from a curse?
What has been the results of those curse(s) so far?  What have the astral
Hells been like for you?

Post by Jonathan Johns
Rich,
This has nothing to do with parroting Prometheus. I figured out that
Eckankar's writings put curses on its members long before I left
Eckankar. I did not look at any of the anti-Eckankar message boards
such as ET (EckankarTruth) or ESA (Eckankar Survivors anonymous)
(Prometheus) until after I had left Eckankar.in December, 2008. I had
seen the homepage of ET, but I only saw the first five messages, and I
though there were only five messages on the entire message board. I
never saw ESA before I left Eckankar in December of 2008 So your
assertion that I am parroting Prometheus is completely wrong. I
figured ot Eckankar's curses by myself, years and years before I ever
saw any of Prometheus' post on ESA.
It was probably in the 1980s when I noticed that Paul's threats of the
astral Hells first adversely affected me. My first confirmation that
somebody else had noticed the same thing was when I read parts of Ford
Johnson's book "Confessions Of A Godseeker) sometime in the 2000-2008
time frame. But I had already figured out some of Eckankar's curses at
least ten years before I read Ford's book. Funny how  I figured it out
independently of Ford Johnson. Funny how  I figured it out
independently of Prometheus. I don't know whether Prometheus figured
it out independently of Ford Johnson, but I suspect that he did.
I discovered the same thing with regard to Prometheus over at ESA.
When I first started reading ESA I found out that Prometheus and I had
noticed a lot of the same things about Eckankar independently,
including Harold Klemps copying of Christianity.
Jonathan

"Ok, my mistake. It sounded exactly like the same
sort of thing I've seen before, trying to scare newbies
away from Eckankar."

Hey Rich, you think any "newbies" might happen to
read a.r.e.?

And how about those curses? Are there any curses
to speak of in the Eckankar writings?

My, oh my. Ex-Eckists writing about any Eckankar
curses for people who leave Eckankar? OMG, it's a
freaking no-brainer!

And you, Rich, don't like to hear about it? Because
it might scare new people away?

Umm... this is something people dialogue about at
a.r.e. The writings of Paul Twitchell and Eckankar,
etc.

Personally speaking, I think it would be helpful that
people discover and explain why any such "curses"
were written into the works. Was it something that
Paul compiled? along with the other stuff he came
across in his life? Was it original to Paul Twitchell?
What was the context, etc? These are the type of
questions I would consider contemplating and then
researching before discussing, or dismissing them
in detail.

Lots of things get put into the Eckankar writings -
including plagiarized materials from other authors.
It's not pretty to realize this for the first time, IMO,
but learning more about WHY it happened is what
can help to some extent, for some people. It gives
more of the whole truth.

Speaking about the whole truth, Doug Marman
gave a whole chapter to the subject in his book
The Whole Truth. Chapter Six:

THE MATTER OF PLAGIARISM p. 253

The Roots of Eckankar; More than Just Plagiarism;
Looking at it From Paul's Perspective; Plagiarism versus
Copyright Infringement; Another Reference Point; Journal-
ism's Disregard of Plagiarism; The Shifting Line of Ethics;
Steal Everything, then Create Something New; Engineers
Copy, then Improve; Puritanical Plagiarism; A Trip Back
Through Time; Plagiarism Is Not Universally Accepted;
Dialogue in Education; The Ethical Foundation of Plagiarism;
Plagiarism in the Age of Criticism; Paul's Own Words; Many
Sources; We Are Not Guilty; Spiritual Leadership versus
Moral Leaders.

****************************************************************

In my opinion, The Whole Truth DID include things
that were controversial. Including plagiarism. The book
did NOT dismiss the idea that Paul compiled from the
works of other people. In fact, the author mentioned a
number of sources. The author also illustrated places
where names were changed to Eck Masters. Does the
book go into the area of WHY Paul Twitchell - founder
of Ekankar - did those things? Does it give the "whole
truth" on those matters? or does it give the opinions &
speculations of so many people along with what might
be the truth? I thought it did both.

So what about the "curses" for people who leave the
path of Eckankar? I thought there were other things by
the leader of Eckankar (now) that did not amount to a
curse. Things even by the founder that did not amount
to a curse, but the idea that the Master has to let the
person go, that they don't try to "keep them" against
their will, and that the Master (in so many words) does
not wish them any ill will. Was Paul just compiling a
whole lot of stuff? from a whole lot of places? and as a
result it was natural for contradictions to appear in the
writings? Could that have been, at least, a part of the
reason? It's a very real possibility, IMO. But if people
think the whole dogma and outer writings came from
Eck Masters only, this is where I suspect people are
missing the boat and are like stranded on an island
surrounded by the whole truth.

If it were me, I would look at the books where the form
of "curses" appear. Look at the year they were printed
and compare with the earlier writings by Paul Twitchell.
Including Letters to Gail. But to be fair, I would also do
a check of the several groups that Paul Twitchell wrote
for and was affiliated with prior to Eckankar - including
Scientology - and research what were the teachings in
those other groups about people who left. I have to say
it this way, IMHO, because not everything the founder
of Eckankar illustrated and shared was original to him,
or never illustrated and shared before. To be frank, it is
common in a host of organized religions to see clergy
"curse" people who leave the church. And it is common
in organized religious dogma to read about "curses" for
people who leave.

All of this is not to state I know exactly WHY certain
things entered into the writings, dogmas, or beliefs of
others. I rather think it might take some research to
separate fact from fiction with regard to versions of the
whole truth. However, I don't think it uncommon in the
world of today, where there is generally more liberty &
freedom (compared to the Dark Ages), that people do
bring up the subject of "curses" by their former church
upon those who leave it.

What I see happening in public dialogue between the
members of a church and the former members are 2
basic things. The members painting pretty pictures of
the church, even painting over anything negative from
a former member (or anybody) who finds an issue of
controversy, contradiction, etc. On the other side of
the fence I see people critically looking at the dogma
and history of organized religion. I see researchers
turning up credible information that not even a whole
lot of people in the church knew before. Along with it
I see people who go to war over personal beliefs, and
whether those beliefs are based on actual truth or not.

It took hundreds of years for relationships between
differing religious factions to develop in the world. To
the point that today people are being killed on a daily
basis. Eckankar has existed less than half a century
since it's founding in 1965, yet already one can find
schisms and similar competing sects. If the root of
all this amounts to people arguing over what is true,
or not. If it comes down to clarifying fact from fiction
then maybe civil well-meaning dialogue and debate
would be better than feeding into World War III.

Etznab

[Rich?]

Post by Etznab

Post by Rich?
Ok, my mistake. It sounded exactly like the same sort of thing I've
seen before, trying to scare newbies away from Eckankar.
So you are another one of the fearful types that are literalists?
You really believed you were going to suffer from a curse?
What has been the results of those curse(s) so far? What have the
astral Hells been like for you?

Post by Jonathan Johns
Rich,
This has nothing to do with parroting Prometheus. I figured out that
Eckankar's writings put curses on its members long before I left
Eckankar. I did not look at any of the anti-Eckankar message boards
such as ET (EckankarTruth) or ESA (Eckankar Survivors anonymous)
(Prometheus) until after I had left Eckankar.in December, 2008. I
had seen the homepage of ET, but I only saw the first five
messages, and I though there were only five messages on the entire
message board. I never saw ESA before I left Eckankar in December
of 2008 So your assertion that I am parroting Prometheus is
completely wrong. I figured ot Eckankar's curses by myself, years
and years before I ever saw any of Prometheus' post on ESA.
It was probably in the 1980s when I noticed that Paul's threats of
the astral Hells first adversely affected me. My first confirmation
that somebody else had noticed the same thing was when I read parts
of Ford Johnson's book "Confessions Of A Godseeker) sometime in the
2000-2008 time frame. But I had already figured out some of
Eckankar's curses at least ten years before I read Ford's book.
Funny how I figured it out independently of Ford Johnson. Funny how
I figured it out independently of Prometheus. I don't know whether
Prometheus figured it out independently of Ford Johnson, but I
suspect that he did.
I discovered the same thing with regard to Prometheus over at ESA.
When I first started reading ESA I found out that Prometheus and I
had noticed a lot of the same things about Eckankar independently,
including Harold Klemps copying of Christianity.
Jonathan

"Ok, my mistake. It sounded exactly like the same
sort of thing I've seen before, trying to scare newbies
away from Eckankar."
Hey Rich, you think any "newbies" might happen to
read a.r.e.?

Very rarely.

Post by Etznab
And how about those curses? Are there any curses
to speak of in the Eckankar writings?

Not in my perception. First of all "curses" implies intent by Eckankar or
ECK Masters. That is starting off with a very false representation. Why
people who should know better present karma as a curse is their own
perceptive failing, out of control emotions, or a purposeful deception. Can
you give an example of any other reason? For spiritually immature, and/or
fearful types, yes, they see curses.

The perspective from a more expansive view gives a greater understanding of
why such things were written. Sometimes it take years of patience to get
that though. Personally, I was never scared or even bothered by any of them.
But that's just me. Others mileage may vary.

Post by Etznab
My, oh my. Ex-Eckists writing about any Eckankar
curses for people who leave Eckankar? OMG, it's a
freaking no-brainer!

Yes, common knowledge here. http://bit.ly/dmuP72

Post by Etznab
And you, Rich, don't like to hear about it? Because
it might scare new people away?

No, I find it boring and somewhat empathically sad. Same 'ol same 'ol
dis-function that I have been hearing from apostates trying to justify their
lack of self-responsibility for many years here.

If it's not the intent to scare people away, specifically what do you think
is the motivation to make such posts? As I wrote elsewhere, if it does scare
people away, they are not ready for Eckankar anyway. So it's a good thing.

I am doing is challenging the people who make the assertions to support
their fear, to supply real examples of what these so called curses actually
did. IOW, did the curse actually manifest in their life? Or was their fear
much to do about nothing?

Post by Etznab
Umm... this is something people dialogue about at
a.r.e. The writings of Paul Twitchell and Eckankar,
etc.
Personally speaking, I think it would be helpful that
people discover and explain why any such "curses"
were written into the works.

Been there done that many times over. You don't like mine or any others
explanations. Fine. It's really OK with me. But you keep asking me the same
questions over and over and over again and expecting different results? For
people like Jonathan it's also been my experience that it is a waste of
time. He can find the answers in the archives, but it appears that he is in
attack mode and isn't interested in answers anyway. And still I answer
him...


<SNIP unrelated stuff that has been discussed with you hundreds of times>

Post by Etznab
this is where I suspect people are
missing the boat and are like stranded on an island
surrounded by the whole truth.

I agree. People keep looking around the island of their limited perspective,
researching for physical proof, instead of sailing off on the limitless
cosmic sea.


<SNIP generalities about religions>