Discussion:
Daswan Dwar
(too old to reply)
Etznab
2009-07-12 01:25:46 UTC
"When the physical body dies, and Soul passes
the Angel of Death, It goes upward discarding each
body, and finally leaves the mind, or casual body on
the casual plane, in the lower part of the Third World.
Then in the regions above, called Daswan Dwar, It
beholds Itself as pure spirit and knows all things,
rejoices in all things by direct perception without the
bodies of communication or contemplation."

Dialogues With The Master, p. 205, Ninth Printing
1987, Paul Twitchell

That was from one of Paul Twitchell's earliest
manuscripts, I presume.

If Daswan Dwar is on the level of the Astral Plane,
or the "lower worlds" then how is it that Soul beholds
itself as pure spirit without bodies of communication
or contemplation in that region?

It is curious, IMO, that earlier illustrations for the
"God-Worlds" appear to list Anami Lok as the tenth
plane and the word there as HU.

When the Eck Master Rebazar Tarzs takes Paul
Twitchell to "Anami" in Dialogues With The Master,
it reads like that is the highest plane and the home
of SUGMAD ("God").

I wonder if any connection between Anami Lok &
Daswan Dwar. It wasn't very clear to me after reading
Dialogues With The Master and The Tiger's Fang.

If there is time, my hunch is to read The Path of
The Master's (1939) by Julian Johnson and look to
see if Paul Twitchell got any of his information and
quotes about Daswan Dwar from there. That way I
could better trace the origin and the source for this
mythology.

269 - 270: Path of the Masters (last paragraph):

"[....] Finally, when an individual rises from the
physical to the astral, then the casual, and finally
leaves the casual on his upward journey, he dis-
cards all three instruments. This is because he no
longer needs them. When he reaches the region
next above the casual plane, he finds himself clear
of all instruments and beholds himself as pure spirit.
He then knows all things, rejoices in all things, by
direct perception - without instruments of commun-
ication or meditation. That region is known to
Masters as Daswan Dwar."

Farther down the page (p. 270):

"[....] For this reason, when the soul rises to
Daswan Dwar and above, it has no need of the
mind or any of the material bodies. It knows,
as said before, by direct perception. All know-
ledge is open to it without any sort of instrument."

From 1997 hardcover version Path of the
Masters. Those who have the book can read
for further context. The book was written more
than 25 years before the official founding of
Eckankar in 1965.

I think if someone wanted to trace recorded
history for Daswan Dwar they might want to
consider Path of The Masters and where from
its author Julian Johnson (a former Christian
Missionary from America) got his information
about it.

Paul Twitchell appears to get some of his
information (the Eckankar quote beginning
this thread) from Eck Master Rebazar Tarzs.

Etznab
wernertrp
2009-07-12 09:13:23 UTC
   "When the physical body dies, and Soul passes
the Angel of Death, It goes upward discarding each
body, and finally leaves the mind, or casual body on
the casual plane, in the lower part of the Third World.
Then in the regions above, called Daswan Dwar, It
beholds Itself as pure spirit and knows all things,
rejoices in all things by direct perception without the
bodies of communication or contemplation."
Dialogues With The Master, p. 205, Ninth Printing
1987, Paul Twitchell
   That was from one of Paul Twitchell's earliest
manuscripts, I presume.
   If Daswan Dwar is on the level of the Astral Plane,
or the "lower worlds" then how is it that Soul beholds
itself as pure spirit without bodies of communication
or contemplation in that region?
   It is curious, IMO, that earlier illustrations for the
"God-Worlds" appear to list Anami Lok as the tenth
plane and the word there as HU.
   When the Eck Master Rebazar Tarzs takes Paul
Twitchell to "Anami" in Dialogues With The Master,
it reads like that is the highest plane and the home
of SUGMAD ("God").
   I wonder if any connection between Anami Lok &
Daswan Dwar. It wasn't very clear to me after reading
Dialogues With The Master and The Tiger's Fang.
   If there is time, my hunch is to read The Path of
The Master's (1939) by Julian Johnson and look to
see if Paul Twitchell got any of his information and
quotes about Daswan Dwar from there. That way I
could better trace the origin and the source for this
mythology.
"[....] Finally, when an individual rises from the
physical to the astral, then the casual, and finally
leaves the casual on his upward journey, he dis-
cards all three instruments. This is because he no
longer needs them. When he reaches the region
next above the casual plane, he finds himself clear
of all instruments and beholds himself as pure spirit.
He then knows all things, rejoices in all things, by
direct perception - without instruments of commun-
ication or meditation. That region is known to
Masters as Daswan Dwar."
"[....] For this reason, when the soul rises to
Daswan Dwar and above, it has no need of the
mind or any of the material bodies. It knows,
as said before, by direct perception. All know-
ledge is open to it without any sort of instrument."
   From 1997 hardcover version Path of the
Masters. Those who have the book can read
for further context. The book was written more
than 25 years before the official founding of
Eckankar in 1965.
   I think if someone wanted to trace recorded
history for Daswan Dwar they might want to
consider Path of The Masters and where from
its author Julian Johnson (a former Christian
Missionary from America) got his information
about it.
   Paul Twitchell appears to get some of his
information (the Eckankar quote beginning
this thread) from Eck Master Rebazar Tarzs.
Etznab
Ordinary humans did not have a Soul.
The Soul is installed when creating the Kedschan body in the body,
maybe.
How do you create a Kedschan body ?
Dennis
2009-08-05 19:19:23 UTC
Post by Etznab
"When the physical body dies, and Soul passes
the Angel of Death, It goes upward discarding each
body, and finally leaves the mind, or casual body on
the casual plane, in the lower part of the Third World.
Then in the regions above, called Daswan Dwar, It
beholds Itself as pure spirit and knows all things,
rejoices in all things by direct perception without the
bodies of communication or contemplation."
If Daswan Dwar is on the level of the Astral Plane,
or the "lower worlds" then how is it that Soul beholds
itself as pure spirit without bodies of communication
or contemplation in that region?
From strictly my pov, the first time I was taken out of my body my first
thought was "I'm awake again. It's over, finally! The dream is over, I'm a
spirit again. I'm awake and free again". (I wasn't of course), but after
leaving the body, I suddenly realized that everything has gotten very quiet
(the body is a very noisy place), there was no more warm or cold, feeling or
fear. No more "thinking" either. (The brain is constantly chattering like a
busy computer performing work to keep the body running in the background. We
are used to this activity and completely ignore it. But, as soon as your
out-of-body you notice the peacefulness of awareness without the mechanical
drumming of the brain and chatter of the mind).

To me, spirit was like being a small ball of light, only unlike light,
uninhibited from trespassing anywhere. Pure spirit seems to be exactly what
is experienced. But it did have a sort of form and did take-up space
nonetheless. The upper regions you speak of, I believe is where one has no
spirit at all. There is just a viewpoint, no form. Soul travel is exactly
the same procedure as what is experienced in death, only the body is
retained buy a connection of energy to the ethereal body (or Astral Body)
and remains alive. On my first time I was taken out, the process, although I
had never experienced it before, was completely familiar. Movement, once out
however, was a little awkward. Growing larger and watching this universe
vanish within is somewhat unnerving.
Post by Etznab
rejoices in all things by direct perception
Perception in spirit is different from I was used to here in human form.
Thoughts seemed to travel out of me, like waves when a pebble is tossed into
a stream. Unlike human communication where we pick up each word, one after
the other in serial form and them put them together to form a "picture" in
the mind; thoughts seem to be received as a complete "vision" (for lack of a
better word) and then are "opened", like pealing an onion, to see the
smaller pieces. (Somewhat similar to the difference between a serial port
and a parallel port on a computer).
We can hear all of the thoughts of all souls near us (they seem to be
polarized to follow the ground contour), but we tend to ignore them as being
unneeded. Taken as a whole, they form sort of back-ground "noise". Near
Earth, all of the thoughts that one hears sounds like a combination of loud,
rumbling thunder & static, only without direction. Climb to a few thousand
feet in altitude and it quiets down nicely. The higher you go, the more
peaceful it becomes. Point is, direct perception can't be shut off, but it
can be attenuated by moving upwards. Eckankar refers to this as the "sound
current". It was my experience that it's the mental activity of all souls at
any given level. (I know the party line, that it is a stream like a water
stream, running from a high distant place down into the worlds below. One
enters and "swims" back to the source. This is not what I experienced. The
sound does change depending where you are, but it doesn't beckon in quite
that way; one is in all of it at all times and one does seek to finer
"notes", turning in the "direction" where they seem to emulate. Whether it
eventually leads one to God or not, I can't say. All I can say is what I
experienced was different than what's in the Eck books).
I wonder, if the mental activity of all souls form the sound currents, and
we are continuously bathed in its ambiance by direct perception, why can't
we simply choose to tune into it in human form? In all creation, we, here in
human form, are the only one's blocked from its influence. Or do we still
hear it and have chosen to block it out? In re-entering the body, the sounds
of the body, the heart, lungs breathing, blood rushing around in the pipes,
digestion, and muscles moving, are all overwhelming. Add the that the
inundation of the "thought current" of the mind working incessantly,
complete blocking out the fineness of the spirit, and I think I have my
answer. We are bewitched by the mind and must live by Law in a
serial-perception cognizance.
Ah, enough, time to get back to work, by all means, begin your counter
attack.
Etznab
2009-08-06 00:58:37 UTC
Post by Dennis
  "When the physical body dies, and Soul passes
the Angel of Death, It goes upward discarding each
body, and finally leaves the mind, or casual body on
the casual plane, in the lower part of the Third World.
Then in the regions above, called Daswan Dwar, It
beholds Itself as pure spirit and knows all things,
rejoices in all things by direct perception without the
bodies of communication or contemplation."
  If Daswan Dwar is on the level of the Astral Plane,
or the "lower worlds" then how is it that Soul beholds
itself as pure spirit without bodies of communication
or contemplation in that region?
From strictly my pov, the first time I was taken out of my body my first
thought was "I'm awake again. It's over, finally! The dream is over, I'm a
spirit again.  I'm awake and free again". (I wasn't of course), but after
leaving the body, I suddenly realized that everything has gotten very quiet
(the body is a very noisy place), there was no more warm or cold, feeling or
fear. No more "thinking" either. (The brain is constantly chattering like a
busy computer performing work to keep the body running in the background. We
are used to this activity and completely ignore it. But, as soon as your
out-of-body you notice the peacefulness of awareness without the mechanical
drumming of the brain and chatter of the mind).
To me, spirit was like being a small ball of light, only unlike light,
uninhibited from trespassing anywhere. Pure spirit seems to be exactly what
is experienced. But it did have a sort of form and did take-up space
nonetheless. The upper regions you speak of, I believe is where one has no
spirit at all. There is just a viewpoint, no form.  Soul travel is exactly
the same procedure as what is experienced in death, only the body is
retained buy a connection of energy to the ethereal body (or Astral Body)
and remains alive. On my first time I was taken out, the process, although I
had never experienced it before, was completely familiar. Movement, once out
however, was a little awkward. Growing larger and watching this universe
vanish within is somewhat unnerving.
rejoices in all things by direct perception
Perception in spirit is different from I was used to here in human form.
Thoughts seemed to travel out of me, like waves when a pebble is tossed into
a stream. Unlike human communication where we pick up each word, one after
the other in serial form and them put them together to form a "picture" in
the mind; thoughts seem to be received as a complete "vision" (for lack of a
better word) and then are "opened", like pealing an onion, to see the
smaller pieces. (Somewhat similar to the difference between a serial port
and a parallel port on a computer).
We can hear all of the thoughts of all souls near us (they seem to be
polarized to follow the ground contour), but we tend to ignore them as being
unneeded. Taken as a whole, they form sort of back-ground "noise". Near
Earth, all of the thoughts that one hears sounds like a combination of loud,
rumbling thunder & static, only without direction. Climb to a few thousand
feet in altitude and it quiets down nicely. The higher you go, the more
peaceful it becomes. Point is, direct perception can't be shut off, but it
can be attenuated by moving upwards. Eckankar refers to this as the "sound
current". It was my experience that it's the mental activity of all souls at
any given level. (I know the party line, that it is a stream like a water
stream, running from a high distant place down into the worlds below. One
enters and "swims" back to the source. This is not what I experienced. The
sound does change depending where you are, but it doesn't beckon in quite
that way; one is in all of it at all times and one does seek to finer
"notes", turning in the "direction" where they seem to emulate. Whether it
eventually leads one to God or not, I can't say. All I can say is what I
experienced was different than what's in the Eck books).
I wonder, if the mental activity of all souls form the sound currents, and
we are continuously bathed in its ambiance by direct perception, why can't
we simply choose to tune into it in human form? In all creation, we, here in
human form, are the only one's blocked from its influence. Or do we still
hear it and have chosen to block it out? In re-entering the body, the sounds
of the body, the heart, lungs breathing, blood rushing around in the pipes,
digestion, and muscles moving, are all overwhelming. Add the that the
inundation of the "thought current" of the mind working incessantly,
complete blocking out the fineness of the spirit, and I think I have my
answer. We are bewitched by the mind and must live by Law in a
serial-perception cognizance.
Ah, enough, time to get back to work, by all means, begin your counter
attack.
That was all very interesting.

My guess - to some of the questions - is that it has
to do with gravity and the curving of space. All of the
thought forms combined in a certain area, region, or a
plane can act like a form of gravity warping space and
time.

Just a thought.

Etznab
wernertrp
2009-08-06 13:19:04 UTC
Post by Dennis
  "When the physical body dies, and Soul passes
the Angel of Death, It goes upward discarding each
body, and finally leaves the mind, or casual body on
the casual plane, in the lower part of the Third World.
Then in the regions above, called Daswan Dwar, It
beholds Itself as pure spirit and knows all things,
rejoices in all things by direct perception without the
bodies of communication or contemplation."
  If Daswan Dwar is on the level of the Astral Plane,
or the "lower worlds" then how is it that Soul beholds
itself as pure spirit without bodies of communication
or contemplation in that region?
From strictly my pov, the first time I was taken out of my body my first
thought was "I'm awake again. It's over, finally! The dream is over, I'm a
spirit again.  I'm awake and free again". (I wasn't of course), but after
leaving the body, I suddenly realized that everything has gotten very quiet
(the body is a very noisy place), there was no more warm or cold, feeling or
fear. No more "thinking" either. (The brain is constantly chattering like a
busy computer performing work to keep the body running in the background. We
are used to this activity and completely ignore it. But, as soon as your
out-of-body you notice the peacefulness of awareness without the mechanical
drumming of the brain and chatter of the mind).
To me, spirit was like being a small ball of light, only unlike light,
uninhibited from trespassing anywhere. Pure spirit seems to be exactly what
is experienced. But it did have a sort of form and did take-up space
nonetheless. The upper regions you speak of, I believe is where one has no
spirit at all. There is just a viewpoint, no form.  Soul travel is exactly
the same procedure as what is experienced in death, only the body is
retained buy a connection of energy to the ethereal body (or Astral Body)
and remains alive. On my first time I was taken out, the process, although I
had never experienced it before, was completely familiar. Movement, once out
however, was a little awkward. Growing larger and watching this universe
vanish within is somewhat unnerving.
rejoices in all things by direct perception
Perception in spirit is different from I was used to here in human form.
Thoughts seemed to travel out of me, like waves when a pebble is tossed into
a stream. Unlike human communication where we pick up each word, one after
the other in serial form and them put them together to form a "picture" in
the mind; thoughts seem to be received as a complete "vision" (for lack of a
better word) and then are "opened", like pealing an onion, to see the
smaller pieces. (Somewhat similar to the difference between a serial port
and a parallel port on a computer).
We can hear all of the thoughts of all souls near us (they seem to be
polarized to follow the ground contour), but we tend to ignore them as being
unneeded. Taken as a whole, they form sort of back-ground "noise". Near
Earth, all of the thoughts that one hears sounds like a combination of loud,
rumbling thunder & static, only without direction. Climb to a few thousand
feet in altitude and it quiets down nicely. The higher you go, the more
peaceful it becomes. Point is, direct perception can't be shut off, but it
can be attenuated by moving upwards. Eckankar refers to this as the "sound
current". It was my experience that it's the mental activity of all souls at
any given level. (I know the party line, that it is a stream like a water
stream, running from a high distant place down into the worlds below. One
enters and "swims" back to the source. This is not what I experienced. The
sound does change depending where you are, but it doesn't beckon in quite
that way; one is in all of it at all times and one does seek to finer
"notes", turning in the "direction" where they seem to emulate. Whether it
eventually leads one to God or not, I can't say. All I can say is what I
experienced was different than what's in the Eck books).
I wonder, if the mental activity of all souls form the sound currents, and
we are continuously bathed in its ambiance by direct perception, why can't
we simply choose to tune into it in human form? In all creation, we, here in
human form, are the only one's blocked from its influence. Or do we still
hear it and have chosen to block it out? In re-entering the body, the sounds
of the body, the heart, lungs breathing, blood rushing around in the pipes,
digestion, and muscles moving, are all overwhelming. Add the that the
inundation of the "thought current" of the mind working incessantly,
complete blocking out the fineness of the spirit, and I think I have my
answer. We are bewitched by the mind and must live by Law in a
serial-perception cognizance.
Ah, enough, time to get back to work, by all means, begin your counter
attack.
   That was all very interesting.
   My guess - to some of the questions - is that it has
to do with gravity and the curving of space. All of the
thought forms combined in a certain area, region, or a
plane can act like a form of gravity warping space and
time.
   Just a thought.
Etznab- Zitierten Text ausblenden -
- Zitierten Text anzeigen -
Gravity is the most less understood function in physics.
Neither it's resolved in the GUT.
(grand unified theorie)
Dennis
2009-08-11 19:01:00 UTC
Post by wernertrp
Post by Etznab
Post by Dennis
I wonder, if the mental activity of all souls form the sound currents, and
we are continuously bathed in its ambiance by direct perception, why can't
we simply choose to tune into it in human form? In all creation, we, here in
human form, are the only one's blocked from its influence. Or do we still
hear it and have chosen to block it out? In re-entering the body, the sounds
That was all very interesting.
My guess - to some of the questions - is that it has
to do with gravity and the curving of space. All of the
thought forms combined in a certain area, region, or a
plane can act like a form of gravity warping space and
time.
Gravity is the most less understood function in physics.
Neither it's resolved in the GUT.
(grand unified theorie)
I'm not at all convinced that any of this is related to gravity.

Thoughts radiate out in all directions like waves, (even though they can
only be measured at a few feet away from the head), but seem to follow the
curvature of the earth; like VLF electromagnetic waves. Inasmuch as thoughts
are VLF, it would almost appear that there is a correlation; but I'm not
aware that any research has ever turned up this as an absolute (except for
classifiied military operations used in Viet Nam.)

Whether thoughts are true electromagnetic waves or not, my own feelings run
along the lines of being related to wavelength.
Etznab
2009-08-12 01:30:22 UTC
Post by Dennis
Post by wernertrp
Post by Etznab
Post by Dennis
I wonder, if the mental activity of all souls form the sound currents, and
we are continuously bathed in its ambiance by direct perception, why can't
we simply choose to tune into it in human form? In all creation, we, here in
human form, are the only one's blocked from its influence. Or do we still
hear it and have chosen to block it out? In re-entering the body, the sounds
That was all very interesting.
My guess - to some of the questions - is that it has
to do with gravity and the curving of space. All of the
thought forms combined in a certain area, region, or a
plane can act like a form of gravity warping space and
time.
Gravity is the most less understood function in physics.
Neither it's resolved in the GUT.
(grand unified theorie)
I'm not at all convinced that any of this is related to gravity.
Thoughts radiate out in all directions like waves, (even though they can
only be measured at a few feet away from the head), but seem to follow the
curvature of the earth; like VLF electromagnetic waves. Inasmuch as thoughts
are VLF, it would almost appear that there is a correlation; but I'm not
aware that any research has ever turned up this as an absolute (except for
classifiied military operations used in Viet Nam.)
Whether thoughts are true electromagnetic waves or not, my own feelings run
along the lines of being related to wavelength.
Have you read the chapter "Maya, The Queen
Of Illusion"? from Dialogues With The Master?

What do you suppose curves time and space?
If not gravity?

Perhaps thought is a form of gravity? Perhaps
even has magnetic properties?

How else do you capture Soul and imprison it
in all those bodies? Doesn't Soul need Mental,
Emotional & Physical bodies to function on the
lower planes?

I think it is gravity and a form of attachment
that creates the bodies. It might be what the
older teachings called nature, or prakriti. How-
ever, I believe they also said that prakriti was
created for purusha and that the two existed
in mutual relationship.

Most of the Hindu deities had a counterpart.
There were two sides to both of them. Female
and male. Is this basically prakriti & purusha?

If we haven't a GUT (Grand Unified Theory)
How can one rule out the function and even
the "origin" of gravity?

These are some of the questions I would
ask myself.


Etznab