Discussion:
Doug, tell me...
(too old to reply)
simon
2004-08-22 06:41:02 UTC
Permalink
Doug, is what you say your perception of yours Truth, or is it just
Truth for you?

Is there such a thing as truth of all that exist and is your
perception that.

Or perhaps you believe that there is always a plus element so ultimate
Truth does not exist?

Do you believe that one cannot find truth in such a way that there is
no more plus eliment to seek?
Drmarman
2004-08-22 19:38:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by simon
Doug, is what you say your perception of yours Truth, or is it just
Truth for you?
Is there such a thing as truth of all that exist and is your
perception that.
Or perhaps you believe that there is always a plus element so ultimate
Truth does not exist?
Do you believe that one cannot find truth in such a way that there is
no more plus eliment to seek?
DOUG RESPONDS:
These are interesting questions.

I got into a discussion like this with David Lane once, but I think you have a
much better grasp of the subtleties than he seemed interested in.

I know lots of religions like to act as if Truth, the universal Truth that is,
can be stated in nice clear terms, but I don't see it that way. This is the way
the Mind likes to work, so those religions that believe they can explain
universal Truth in clearly set principles are really only dealing with the Mind
truths.

However, I do think it is important to differentiate between something that is
right for us in the moment, which is what personal truth is about, and
universal Truth, which is something that is true for all of Life.

David Lane and a lot of the modern philosophers seem to feel that there is no
way to know the universal Truth, so nothing we talk about is universal Truth.
It is all relative truth.

I don't agree with this. I think the whole meaning of universal Truth is
something that we know in our core being. Soul knows it exists instinctively
and this is why we search for Truth. However, it always seems like we are
learning more about it, and we never quite get to the end of it all.

I do think we can speak FROM a state of consciousness where universal Truth is
the reality, but the way we each express it will never capture the whole of it.
So our expression is relative and incomplete. But anyone who can catch the hint
knows what we mean. So, our words are only symbols of something else and do not
need to be exact.

I believe that the whole of universal Truth is composed of the realizations of
Soul. We inherit these awarenesses from those who passed these ways before us.
Our own realizations become a part of it. Thus the source of this Truth is Soul
and it comes from Soul's recognition of God, or the whole of reality.

This means that as Soul awakens to this Truth, the Truth itself grows. Soul
realizes more of God and the Truth of God grows at the same time. This is why
there is always the plus factor.

So, there is no ultimate Truth that we can arrive at and say we've gone the
whole distance and there is nothing more to learn.

That's how I see it anyway.

How do you see it?

Doug.
neuralsurfer
2004-08-23 04:58:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Drmarman
Post by simon
Doug, is what you say your perception of yours Truth, or is it just
Truth for you?
Is there such a thing as truth of all that exist and is your
perception that.
Or perhaps you believe that there is always a plus element so ultimate
Truth does not exist?
Do you believe that one cannot find truth in such a way that there is
no more plus eliment to seek?
These are interesting questions.
I got into a discussion like this with David Lane once, but I think you have a
much better grasp of the subtleties than he seemed interested in.
I know lots of religions like to act as if Truth, the universal Truth that is,
can be stated in nice clear terms, but I don't see it that way. This is the way
the Mind likes to work, so those religions that believe they can explain
universal Truth in clearly set principles are really only dealing with the Mind
truths.
However, I do think it is important to differentiate between something that is
right for us in the moment, which is what personal truth is about, and
universal Truth, which is something that is true for all of Life.
David Lane and a lot of the modern philosophers seem to feel that there is no
way to know the universal Truth, so nothing we talk about is universal Truth.
It is all relative truth.
I don't agree with this. I think the whole meaning of universal Truth is
something that we know in our core being. Soul knows it exists instinctively
and this is why we search for Truth. However, it always seems like we are
learning more about it, and we never quite get to the end of it all.
I do think we can speak FROM a state of consciousness where universal Truth is
the reality, but the way we each express it will never capture the whole of it.
So our expression is relative and incomplete. But anyone who can catch the hint
knows what we mean. So, our words are only symbols of something else and do not
need to be exact.
I believe that the whole of universal Truth is composed of the realizations of
Soul. We inherit these awarenesses from those who passed these ways before us.
Our own realizations become a part of it. Thus the source of this Truth is Soul
and it comes from Soul's recognition of God, or the whole of reality.
This means that as Soul awakens to this Truth, the Truth itself grows. Soul
realizes more of God and the Truth of God grows at the same time. This is why
there is always the plus factor.
So, there is no ultimate Truth that we can arrive at and say we've gone the
whole distance and there is nothing more to learn.
That's how I see it anyway.
How do you see it?
Doug.
Relative truth?

No, maybe I could more accurately say, relative perception.

And, yes, I think we have relative or limited perceptions.... even in
our intuitions, even in our mystical states, even in our claims of
"being" or oneness or whatever descriptive nexus we impute upon it.

I have always liked Nicholas of Cusa's famous dictum,

The unattainable is attained by its unattainment.
simon
2004-08-23 06:50:55 UTC
Permalink
I am still only at the "believing" level that the Whole can be
experienced but without the experiencing mechanism. In other words
not by "ME". The "ME" who I think I am. Doug, I do have sometimes on
a daily basis, Inner plane experiences Light and Sound and all. I do
have the experience of "Divine Love" in contemplation. I have had
experiences with "Masters" on the inner but my inagination about their
relivance has changed. I am a pretty spaced out individual.
Something tells me that the "thing" that all of these experiences sit
in, including the experience that I call "ME'...something tells me
that that thing is real and upon getting "there" there is nothing else
to do, nowhere to go. Since I know that I am not Awake to this, I can
only imagine and believe. Now you know i am shure that the world of
the imagination can take you into indescribable experiences. I have
those experiences but the fact that there is always another step in
them tells me that they are relative to something else. That makes
two. Me and My experience. Seeing two where there is One is always
the endless relm of games to me. If I had to guess I would say the
plus element is what reincarnation is all about.
Jadoo941
2004-08-24 05:02:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by simon
Something tells me that the "thing" that all of these experiences sit
in, including the experience that I call "ME'...something tells me
that that thing is real and upon getting "there" there is nothing else
to do, nowhere to go.
Shhhhh. Don't tell the secret...people will be out of a job...religions will
shut down...initiations will be laughed about. Shhhhhh.
cher
2004-08-24 15:35:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jadoo941
Post by simon
Something tells me that the "thing" that all of these experiences sit
in, including the experience that I call "ME'...something tells me
that that thing is real and upon getting "there" there is nothing else
to do, nowhere to go.
Shhhhh. Don't tell the secret...people will be out of a job...religions will
shut down...initiations will be laughed about. Shhhhhh.
Gee... no need for religions. No need for anything... kind of sounds a
bit like a marxist dream come true, before the work details are handed
out. <smile>
Ken
2004-08-24 16:20:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jadoo941
Post by simon
Something tells me that the "thing" that all of these experiences sit
in, including the experience that I call "ME'...something tells me
that that thing is real and upon getting "there" there is nothing else
to do, nowhere to go.
Shhhhh. Don't tell the secret...people will be out of a job...religions will
shut down...initiations will be laughed about. Shhhhhh.
But is the 'me' that is experienced . . . the real 'me'? When is the
onion fully peeled, all of the layers gone?

Are you sure?
cher
2004-08-24 16:37:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ken
Post by Jadoo941
Post by simon
Something tells me that the "thing" that all of these experiences sit
in, including the experience that I call "ME'...something tells me
that that thing is real and upon getting "there" there is nothing else
to do, nowhere to go.
Shhhhh. Don't tell the secret...people will be out of a job...religions will
shut down...initiations will be laughed about. Shhhhhh.
But is the 'me' that is experienced . . . the real 'me'? When is the
onion fully peeled, all of the layers gone?
Are you sure?
Shhhhhhh.... <grinning>
Jadoo941
2004-08-24 17:42:27 UTC
Permalink
Subject: Re: Doug, tell me...
Date: 8/24/2004 9:37 AM Pacific Standard Time
Post by Ken
Post by Jadoo941
Post by simon
Something tells me that the "thing" that all of these experiences sit
in, including the experience that I call "ME'...something tells me
that that thing is real and upon getting "there" there is nothing else
to do, nowhere to go.
Shhhhh. Don't tell the secret...people will be out of a job...religions
will
Post by Ken
Post by Jadoo941
shut down...initiations will be laughed about. Shhhhhh.
But is the 'me' that is experienced . . . the real 'me'? When is the
onion fully peeled, all of the layers gone?
Are you sure?
Shhhhhhh.... <grinning>
While I dont' expect you two to grok this at your current level of development
let me just say that whatever it is you are looking for is what's looking...

"The unattainable is attained by its unattainment."

You end up where you are because you never left. It's what you're left with
after you grok this:

"The Bible of the Christians, like the Koran of the Moslems, never seems to
consider that the spiritual experiences in the form of hallucinatory visions by
prophet or devotee, reported therein, may, in the last analysis, not be real.
But the Bardo Thodol is so sweeping in its assertions that it leaves its reader
with the clear-cut impression that every vision, WITHOUT ANY EXCEPTION
WHATSOEVER, in which spiritual beings, gods or demons, or paradises or places
of torment and purgation play a part, in a Bardo or any Bardo-like dream or
ecstasy, is purely illusionary, being based upon sangsaric (transitory and
conditioned) phenomena.

"The whole aim of the Bardo Thodol teaching, as otherwise stated elsewhere, is
to cause the Dreamer to awaken into Reality, freed from all the obstructions of
karmic or sangsaric illusions, in a supramundane or Nirvanic state, beyond all
phenomenal paradises, heavens, hells,
purgatories, or worlds of embodiment."
(The Tibetan Book of the Dead, Oxford University Press, 1978, p. 35.)

Tell everybody who will listen.
cher
2004-08-24 19:35:11 UTC
Permalink
This post might be inappropriate. Click to display it.
Jadoo941
2004-08-25 15:40:19 UTC
Permalink
Subject: Re: Doug, tell me...
Date: 8/24/2004 12:35 PM Pacific Standard Time
Post by Jadoo941
Subject: Re: Doug, tell me...
Date: 8/24/2004 9:37 AM Pacific Standard Time
Post by Ken
Post by Jadoo941
Post by simon
Something tells me that the "thing" that all of these experiences sit
in, including the experience that I call "ME'...something tells me
that that thing is real and upon getting "there" there is nothing
else
Post by Jadoo941
Post by Ken
Post by Jadoo941
Post by simon
to do, nowhere to go.
Shhhhh. Don't tell the secret...people will be out of a
job...religions
Post by Jadoo941
will
Post by Ken
Post by Jadoo941
shut down...initiations will be laughed about. Shhhhhh.
But is the 'me' that is experienced . . . the real 'me'? When is the
onion fully peeled, all of the layers gone?
Are you sure?
Shhhhhhh.... <grinning>
While I dont' expect you two to grok this at your current level of
development
Post by Jadoo941
let me just say that whatever it is you are looking for is what's
looking...
Post by Jadoo941
"The unattainable is attained by its unattainment."
You end up where you are because you never left. It's what you're left with
"The Bible of the Christians, like the Koran of the Moslems, never seems to
consider that the spiritual experiences in the form of hallucinatory
visions by
Post by Jadoo941
prophet or devotee, reported therein, may, in the last analysis, not be
real.
Post by Jadoo941
But the Bardo Thodol is so sweeping in its assertions that it leaves its
reader
Post by Jadoo941
with the clear-cut impression that every vision, WITHOUT ANY EXCEPTION
WHATSOEVER, in which spiritual beings, gods or demons, or paradises or
places
Post by Jadoo941
of torment and purgation play a part, in a Bardo or any Bardo-like dream or
ecstasy, is purely illusionary, being based upon sangsaric (transitory and
conditioned) phenomena.
"The whole aim of the Bardo Thodol teaching, as otherwise stated elsewhere,
is
Post by Jadoo941
to cause the Dreamer to awaken into Reality, freed from all the
obstructions of
Post by Jadoo941
karmic or sangsaric illusions, in a supramundane or Nirvanic state, beyond
all
Post by Jadoo941
phenomenal paradises, heavens, hells,
purgatories, or worlds of embodiment."
(The Tibetan Book of the Dead, Oxford University Press, 1978, p. 35.)
Tell everybody who will listen.
Wow... and if you honestly lived this, you would't be here heckling
people everyday! I just love how some sad people can take anything they
read and use it as weapon without ever being directly effected by it's
substance. Amazing. Absolutely amazing. Reading your posts is like a
reflection of Buddha with a big stick, wacking everyone on his path that
says "hello"!
Thank you! Must be working..
All I can say is I sure am glad I don't go to the places
you do. <shudder>
You wouldn't be welcome right now at the places I go...

You give Nirvana a bad rap! LOL..... Tell Kurt Cobain
we said hi! LOL......
I will. He killed the wrong guy, btw.

OK Cher, ready?

"here we are now, entertain us"
cher
2004-08-25 18:45:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jadoo941
Subject: Re: Doug, tell me...
Date: 8/24/2004 12:35 PM Pacific Standard Time
Post by Jadoo941
Subject: Re: Doug, tell me...
Date: 8/24/2004 9:37 AM Pacific Standard Time
Post by Ken
Post by Jadoo941
Post by simon
Something tells me that the "thing" that all of these experiences sit
in, including the experience that I call "ME'...something tells me
that that thing is real and upon getting "there" there is nothing
else
Post by Jadoo941
Post by Ken
Post by Jadoo941
Post by simon
to do, nowhere to go.
Shhhhh. Don't tell the secret...people will be out of a
job...religions
Post by Jadoo941
will
Post by Ken
Post by Jadoo941
shut down...initiations will be laughed about. Shhhhhh.
But is the 'me' that is experienced . . . the real 'me'? When is the
onion fully peeled, all of the layers gone?
Are you sure?
Shhhhhhh.... <grinning>
While I dont' expect you two to grok this at your current level of
development
Post by Jadoo941
let me just say that whatever it is you are looking for is what's
looking...
Post by Jadoo941
"The unattainable is attained by its unattainment."
You end up where you are because you never left. It's what you're left with
"The Bible of the Christians, like the Koran of the Moslems, never seems to
consider that the spiritual experiences in the form of hallucinatory
visions by
Post by Jadoo941
prophet or devotee, reported therein, may, in the last analysis, not be
real.
Post by Jadoo941
But the Bardo Thodol is so sweeping in its assertions that it leaves its
reader
Post by Jadoo941
with the clear-cut impression that every vision, WITHOUT ANY EXCEPTION
WHATSOEVER, in which spiritual beings, gods or demons, or paradises or
places
Post by Jadoo941
of torment and purgation play a part, in a Bardo or any Bardo-like dream or
ecstasy, is purely illusionary, being based upon sangsaric (transitory and
conditioned) phenomena.
"The whole aim of the Bardo Thodol teaching, as otherwise stated elsewhere,
is
Post by Jadoo941
to cause the Dreamer to awaken into Reality, freed from all the
obstructions of
Post by Jadoo941
karmic or sangsaric illusions, in a supramundane or Nirvanic state, beyond
all
Post by Jadoo941
phenomenal paradises, heavens, hells,
purgatories, or worlds of embodiment."
(The Tibetan Book of the Dead, Oxford University Press, 1978, p. 35.)
Tell everybody who will listen.
Wow... and if you honestly lived this, you would't be here heckling
people everyday! I just love how some sad people can take anything they
read and use it as weapon without ever being directly effected by it's
substance. Amazing. Absolutely amazing. Reading your posts is like a
reflection of Buddha with a big stick, wacking everyone on his path that
says "hello"!
Thank you! Must be working..
Kind of leaves one wondering where the whole concept of nonviolence
slipped into the mix, hey? I mean if big sticks are all the rage
<grinning> then how did Tibet end up Chinese?
Post by Jadoo941
All I can say is I sure am glad I don't go to the places
you do. <shudder>
You wouldn't be welcome right now at the places I go...
That's good to know.... considering you're <ahummm> anonymous and all.
<lol>
Post by Jadoo941
You give Nirvana a bad rap! LOL..... Tell Kurt Cobain
we said hi! LOL......
I will. He killed the wrong guy, btw.
Another judgment from you? You're filled with judgments. Is that part of
your path?
Post by Jadoo941
OK Cher, ready?
"here we are now, entertain us"
In another lifetime. You can't afford the tickets right now. <wink>
Ken
2004-08-25 01:22:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jadoo941
While I dont' expect you two to grok this at your current level of development
let me just say that whatever it is you are looking for is what's looking...
"The unattainable is attained by its unattainment."
You end up where you are because you never left. It's what you're left with
"The Bible of the Christians, like the Koran of the Moslems, never seems to
consider that the spiritual experiences in the form of hallucinatory visions by
prophet or devotee, reported therein, may, in the last analysis, not be real.
But the Bardo Thodol is so sweeping in its assertions that it leaves its reader
with the clear-cut impression that every vision, WITHOUT ANY EXCEPTION
WHATSOEVER, in which spiritual beings, gods or demons, or paradises or places
of torment and purgation play a part, in a Bardo or any Bardo-like dream or
ecstasy, is purely illusionary, being based upon sangsaric (transitory and
conditioned) phenomena.
"The whole aim of the Bardo Thodol teaching, as otherwise stated elsewhere, is
to cause the Dreamer to awaken into Reality, freed from all the obstructions of
karmic or sangsaric illusions, in a supramundane or Nirvanic state, beyond all
phenomenal paradises, heavens, hells,
purgatories, or worlds of embodiment."
(The Tibetan Book of the Dead, Oxford University Press, 1978, p. 35.)
Tell everybody who will listen.
Yes, yes, yes. All that is form and manifestation is illusory because it is
based in the perception of transitory phenomena and conditioned existence.

Basic stuff.

The interesting question (and whole point of the journey) is, what is the
'reality' behind what the Buddhists call dependent origination?

Here's a quote I like a lot ...

"The Buddha said, 'Men come and go with empty hands. Then where
do they come from and where are they going? Life is like a cloud
floating across the sky and death is like its disappearance over the
mountain. As the cloud is without substance, so is man's life and death.
It is all empty."

"The categories of existence and non-existence are applicable only in
the realm of the conditioned and phenomenal world. Nevertheless, there
is a seed innate in every man that never dies, that is crystal-clear and
intrinsically pure."

- Zen Master Seung Sahn
cher
2004-08-25 02:40:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ken
Post by Jadoo941
While I dont' expect you two to grok this at your current level of development
let me just say that whatever it is you are looking for is what's looking...
"The unattainable is attained by its unattainment."
You end up where you are because you never left. It's what you're left with
"The Bible of the Christians, like the Koran of the Moslems, never seems to
consider that the spiritual experiences in the form of hallucinatory visions by
prophet or devotee, reported therein, may, in the last analysis, not be real.
But the Bardo Thodol is so sweeping in its assertions that it leaves its reader
with the clear-cut impression that every vision, WITHOUT ANY EXCEPTION
WHATSOEVER, in which spiritual beings, gods or demons, or paradises or places
of torment and purgation play a part, in a Bardo or any Bardo-like dream or
ecstasy, is purely illusionary, being based upon sangsaric (transitory and
conditioned) phenomena.
"The whole aim of the Bardo Thodol teaching, as otherwise stated elsewhere, is
to cause the Dreamer to awaken into Reality, freed from all the obstructions of
karmic or sangsaric illusions, in a supramundane or Nirvanic state, beyond all
phenomenal paradises, heavens, hells,
purgatories, or worlds of embodiment."
(The Tibetan Book of the Dead, Oxford University Press, 1978, p. 35.)
Tell everybody who will listen.
Yes, yes, yes. All that is form and manifestation is illusory because it is
based in the perception of transitory phenomena and conditioned existence.
Basic stuff.
The interesting question (and whole point of the journey) is, what is the
'reality' behind what the Buddhists call dependent origination?
Here's a quote I like a lot ...
"The Buddha said, 'Men come and go with empty hands. Then where
do they come from and where are they going? Life is like a cloud
floating across the sky and death is like its disappearance over the
mountain. As the cloud is without substance, so is man's life and death.
It is all empty."
"The categories of existence and non-existence are applicable only in
the realm of the conditioned and phenomenal world. Nevertheless, there
is a seed innate in every man that never dies, that is crystal-clear and
intrinsically pure."
- Zen Master Seung Sahn
Ken, you never cease to amaze me. wow.....
Ken
2004-08-25 03:22:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by cher
Post by Ken
Post by Jadoo941
While I dont' expect you two to grok this at your current level of development
let me just say that whatever it is you are looking for is what's looking...
"The unattainable is attained by its unattainment."
You end up where you are because you never left. It's what you're left with
"The Bible of the Christians, like the Koran of the Moslems, never seems to
consider that the spiritual experiences in the form of hallucinatory visions by
prophet or devotee, reported therein, may, in the last analysis, not be real.
But the Bardo Thodol is so sweeping in its assertions that it leaves its reader
with the clear-cut impression that every vision, WITHOUT ANY EXCEPTION
WHATSOEVER, in which spiritual beings, gods or demons, or paradises or places
of torment and purgation play a part, in a Bardo or any Bardo-like dream or
ecstasy, is purely illusionary, being based upon sangsaric (transitory and
conditioned) phenomena.
"The whole aim of the Bardo Thodol teaching, as otherwise stated elsewhere, is
to cause the Dreamer to awaken into Reality, freed from all the obstructions of
karmic or sangsaric illusions, in a supramundane or Nirvanic state, beyond all
phenomenal paradises, heavens, hells,
purgatories, or worlds of embodiment."
(The Tibetan Book of the Dead, Oxford University Press, 1978, p. 35.)
Tell everybody who will listen.
Yes, yes, yes. All that is form and manifestation is illusory because it is
based in the perception of transitory phenomena and conditioned existence.
Basic stuff.
The interesting question (and whole point of the journey) is, what is the
'reality' behind what the Buddhists call dependent origination?
Here's a quote I like a lot ...
"The Buddha said, 'Men come and go with empty hands. Then where
do they come from and where are they going? Life is like a cloud
floating across the sky and death is like its disappearance over the
mountain. As the cloud is without substance, so is man's life and death.
It is all empty."
"The categories of existence and non-existence are applicable only in
the realm of the conditioned and phenomenal world. Nevertheless, there
is a seed innate in every man that never dies, that is crystal-clear and
intrinsically pure."
- Zen Master Seung Sahn
Ken, you never cease to amaze me. wow.....
It's a good quote, isn't it?
cher
2004-08-25 03:28:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ken
Post by cher
Post by Ken
Post by Jadoo941
While I dont' expect you two to grok this at your current level of development
let me just say that whatever it is you are looking for is what's looking...
"The unattainable is attained by its unattainment."
You end up where you are because you never left. It's what you're left with
"The Bible of the Christians, like the Koran of the Moslems, never seems to
consider that the spiritual experiences in the form of hallucinatory visions by
prophet or devotee, reported therein, may, in the last analysis, not be real.
But the Bardo Thodol is so sweeping in its assertions that it leaves its reader
with the clear-cut impression that every vision, WITHOUT ANY EXCEPTION
WHATSOEVER, in which spiritual beings, gods or demons, or paradises or places
of torment and purgation play a part, in a Bardo or any Bardo-like dream or
ecstasy, is purely illusionary, being based upon sangsaric (transitory and
conditioned) phenomena.
"The whole aim of the Bardo Thodol teaching, as otherwise stated elsewhere, is
to cause the Dreamer to awaken into Reality, freed from all the obstructions of
karmic or sangsaric illusions, in a supramundane or Nirvanic state, beyond all
phenomenal paradises, heavens, hells,
purgatories, or worlds of embodiment."
(The Tibetan Book of the Dead, Oxford University Press, 1978, p. 35.)
Tell everybody who will listen.
Yes, yes, yes. All that is form and manifestation is illusory because it is
based in the perception of transitory phenomena and conditioned existence.
Basic stuff.
The interesting question (and whole point of the journey) is, what is the
'reality' behind what the Buddhists call dependent origination?
Here's a quote I like a lot ...
"The Buddha said, 'Men come and go with empty hands. Then where
do they come from and where are they going? Life is like a cloud
floating across the sky and death is like its disappearance over the
mountain. As the cloud is without substance, so is man's life and death.
It is all empty."
"The categories of existence and non-existence are applicable only in
the realm of the conditioned and phenomenal world. Nevertheless, there
is a seed innate in every man that never dies, that is crystal-clear and
intrinsically pure."
- Zen Master Seung Sahn
Ken, you never cease to amaze me. wow.....
It's a good quote, isn't it?
Yeah.... it truly is. <smile> Thank you!
Jadoo941
2004-08-25 15:43:48 UTC
Permalink
Subject: Re: Doug, tell me...
Date: 8/24/2004 6:22 PM Pacific Standard Time
Post by Jadoo941
While I dont' expect you two to grok this at your current level of
development
Post by Jadoo941
let me just say that whatever it is you are looking for is what's
looking...
Post by Jadoo941
"The unattainable is attained by its unattainment."
You end up where you are because you never left. It's what you're left with
"The Bible of the Christians, like the Koran of the Moslems, never seems to
consider that the spiritual experiences in the form of hallucinatory
visions by
Post by Jadoo941
prophet or devotee, reported therein, may, in the last analysis, not be
real.
Post by Jadoo941
But the Bardo Thodol is so sweeping in its assertions that it leaves its
reader
Post by Jadoo941
with the clear-cut impression that every vision, WITHOUT ANY EXCEPTION
WHATSOEVER, in which spiritual beings, gods or demons, or paradises or
places
Post by Jadoo941
of torment and purgation play a part, in a Bardo or any Bardo-like dream or
ecstasy, is purely illusionary, being based upon sangsaric (transitory and
conditioned) phenomena.
"The whole aim of the Bardo Thodol teaching, as otherwise stated elsewhere,
is
Post by Jadoo941
to cause the Dreamer to awaken into Reality, freed from all the
obstructions of
Post by Jadoo941
karmic or sangsaric illusions, in a supramundane or Nirvanic state, beyond
all
Post by Jadoo941
phenomenal paradises, heavens, hells,
purgatories, or worlds of embodiment."
(The Tibetan Book of the Dead, Oxford University Press, 1978, p. 35.)
Tell everybody who will listen.
Yes, yes, yes. All that is form and manifestation is illusory because it is
based in the perception of transitory phenomena and conditioned existence.
Basic stuff.
The interesting question (and whole point of the journey) is, what is the
'reality' behind what the Buddhists call dependent origination?
Here's a quote I like a lot ...
"The Buddha said, 'Men come and go with empty hands. Then where
do they come from and where are they going? Life is like a cloud
floating across the sky and death is like its disappearance over the
mountain. As the cloud is without substance, so is man's life and death.
It is all empty."
"The categories of existence and non-existence are applicable only in
the realm of the conditioned and phenomenal world. Nevertheless, there
is a seed innate in every man that never dies, that is crystal-clear and
intrinsically pure."
- Zen Master Seung Sahn
Marvelous.

I must comment tho that the Zen Master's statement flys in the face of much of
what eckankar promotes. How do you reconcile this fact? Or do you?
Ken
2004-08-25 17:57:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jadoo941
Subject: Re: Doug, tell me...
Date: 8/24/2004 6:22 PM Pacific Standard Time
Yes, yes, yes. All that is form and manifestation is illusory because it is
based in the perception of transitory phenomena and conditioned existence.
Basic stuff.
The interesting question (and whole point of the journey) is, what is the
'reality' behind what the Buddhists call dependent origination?
Here's a quote I like a lot ...
"The Buddha said, 'Men come and go with empty hands. Then where
do they come from and where are they going? Life is like a cloud
floating across the sky and death is like its disappearance over the
mountain. As the cloud is without substance, so is man's life and death.
It is all empty."
"The categories of existence and non-existence are applicable only in
the realm of the conditioned and phenomenal world. Nevertheless, there
is a seed innate in every man that never dies, that is crystal-clear and
intrinsically pure."
- Zen Master Seung Sahn
Marvelous.
I must comment tho that the Zen Master's statement flys in the face of much of
what eckankar promotes. How do you reconcile this fact? Or do you?
I don't see that. Why don't you tell me exactly what it is in that
quote that's flying in the face of what Eckankar promotes. This
might be fun.
Jadoo941
2004-08-26 17:02:59 UTC
Permalink
Subject: Re: Doug, tell me...
Date: 8/25/2004 10:57 AM Pacific Standard Time
Post by Jadoo941
Subject: Re: Doug, tell me...
Date: 8/24/2004 6:22 PM Pacific Standard Time
Yes, yes, yes. All that is form and manifestation is illusory because it
is
Post by Jadoo941
based in the perception of transitory phenomena and conditioned existence.
Basic stuff.
The interesting question (and whole point of the journey) is, what is the
'reality' behind what the Buddhists call dependent origination?
Here's a quote I like a lot ...
"The Buddha said, 'Men come and go with empty hands. Then where
do they come from and where are they going? Life is like a cloud
floating across the sky and death is like its disappearance over the
mountain. As the cloud is without substance, so is man's life and death.
It is all empty."
"The categories of existence and non-existence are applicable only in
the realm of the conditioned and phenomenal world. Nevertheless, there
is a seed innate in every man that never dies, that is crystal-clear and
intrinsically pure."
- Zen Master Seung Sahn
Marvelous.
I must comment tho that the Zen Master's statement flys in the face of much
of
Post by Jadoo941
what eckankar promotes. How do you reconcile this fact? Or do you?
I don't see that. Why don't you tell me exactly what it is in that
quote that's flying in the face of what Eckankar promotes. This
might be fun.
Sure. Let's start with ekcankar's basic beliefs.

Want to run them down for us?
Ken
2004-08-27 17:49:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jadoo941
Post by Ken
Post by Jadoo941
Post by Ken
Here's a quote I like a lot ...
"The Buddha said, 'Men come and go with empty hands. Then where
do they come from and where are they going? Life is like a cloud
floating across the sky and death is like its disappearance over the
mountain. As the cloud is without substance, so is man's life and death.
It is all empty."
"The categories of existence and non-existence are applicable only in
the realm of the conditioned and phenomenal world. Nevertheless, there
is a seed innate in every man that never dies, that is crystal-clear and
intrinsically pure."
- Zen Master Seung Sahn
Marvelous.
I must comment tho that the Zen Master's statement flys in the face of much
of
Post by Jadoo941
what eckankar promotes. How do you reconcile this fact? Or do you?
I don't see that. Why don't you tell me exactly what it is in that
quote that's flying in the face of what Eckankar promotes. This
might be fun.
Sure. Let's start with ekcankar's basic beliefs.
Want to run them down for us?
As I've said before, I'm not quote boy. But the one pivital point that this
teaching does revolve around IMO is this ...

"The aim and purpose of ECKANKAR has always been to take Soul by
It's own path back to It's divine source."

And, "Soul exists because God loves It."


What are the contradictions do you see in these to the above quote?
Michael Wallace
2004-08-28 01:12:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ken
Post by Jadoo941
Post by Ken
Post by Jadoo941
Post by Ken
Here's a quote I like a lot ...
"The Buddha said, 'Men come and go with empty hands. Then where
do they come from and where are they going? Life is like a cloud
floating across the sky and death is like its disappearance over the
mountain. As the cloud is without substance, so is man's life and death.
It is all empty."
"The categories of existence and non-existence are applicable only in
the realm of the conditioned and phenomenal world. Nevertheless, there
is a seed innate in every man that never dies, that is crystal-clear and
intrinsically pure."
- Zen Master Seung Sahn
Marvelous.
I must comment tho that the Zen Master's statement flys in the face of much
of
Post by Jadoo941
what eckankar promotes. How do you reconcile this fact? Or do you?
I don't see that. Why don't you tell me exactly what it is in that
quote that's flying in the face of what Eckankar promotes. This
might be fun.
Sure. Let's start with ekcankar's basic beliefs.
Want to run them down for us?
As I've said before, I'm not quote boy. But the one pivital point that this
teaching does revolve around IMO is this ...
"The aim and purpose of ECKANKAR has always been to take Soul by
It's own path back to It's divine source."
And, "Soul exists because God loves It."
What are the contradictions do you see in these to the above quote?
The contraditcions are in Gary's head...

And there are LOTS of them...


Love

Michael
Jadoo941
2004-08-29 23:31:31 UTC
Permalink
Subject: Re: Doug, tell me...
Date: 8/27/2004 10:49 AM Pacific Standard Time
Post by Jadoo941
Post by Ken
Post by Jadoo941
Post by Ken
Here's a quote I like a lot ...
"The Buddha said, 'Men come and go with empty hands. Then where
do they come from and where are they going? Life is like a cloud
floating across the sky and death is like its disappearance over the
mountain. As the cloud is without substance, so is man's life and
death.
Post by Jadoo941
Post by Ken
Post by Jadoo941
Post by Ken
It is all empty."
"The categories of existence and non-existence are applicable only in
the realm of the conditioned and phenomenal world. Nevertheless, there
is a seed innate in every man that never dies, that is crystal-clear
and
Post by Jadoo941
Post by Ken
Post by Jadoo941
Post by Ken
intrinsically pure."
- Zen Master Seung Sahn
Marvelous.
I must comment tho that the Zen Master's statement flys in the face of
much
Post by Jadoo941
Post by Ken
of
Post by Jadoo941
what eckankar promotes. How do you reconcile this fact? Or do you?
I don't see that. Why don't you tell me exactly what it is in that
quote that's flying in the face of what Eckankar promotes. This
might be fun.
Sure. Let's start with ekcankar's basic beliefs.
Want to run them down for us?
As I've said before, I'm not quote boy. But the one pivital point that this
teaching does revolve around IMO is this ...
"The aim and purpose of ECKANKAR has always been to take Soul by
It's own path back to It's divine source."
And, "Soul exists because God loves It."
What are the contradictions do you see in these to the above quote?
They are as obvious as the nose on your face. Right there in front of you.
Look!
"The categories of existence and non-existence are applicable only in the realm
of the conditioned and phenomenal world." How can soul "exist" because god
loves it? That presupposes Soul didn't exist before god loved it! It's
nonsense. Soul IS. It is unconditioned luminosity. It doesn't need some
anthropormorphic godshot of "love" to bring it forth. If God IS, then Soul IS
and it is non-sensical to even try to differentiate between IT & IT.

It's the same with your other quote, "The aim and purpose of eckankar has
always been to take Soul by It's own path back to It's divine source." eckankra
can't take Soul anywhere because it is no-where or should I say now-here? How
can It go where It wasn't before? When It gets "there" will it no longer be
"here"?? It's the Mad Hatter's Tea Party this eckankra. No wonder you are all
slightly bonkers.

If you really get Seung Sahn, it may be time for your leaving the childish play
of ekckakar Ken. eckankra may be as good as any other place for starters but a
way ugly place to stay long.
Ken
2004-08-30 20:21:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jadoo941
Subject: Re: Doug, tell me...
Date: 8/27/2004 10:49 AM Pacific Standard Time
Post by Jadoo941
Post by Ken
Post by Jadoo941
Post by Ken
Here's a quote I like a lot ...
"The Buddha said, 'Men come and go with empty hands. Then where
do they come from and where are they going? Life is like a cloud
floating across the sky and death is like its disappearance over the
mountain. As the cloud is without substance, so is man's life and
death.
Post by Jadoo941
Post by Ken
Post by Jadoo941
Post by Ken
It is all empty."
"The categories of existence and non-existence are applicable only in
the realm of the conditioned and phenomenal world. Nevertheless, there
is a seed innate in every man that never dies, that is crystal-clear
and
Post by Jadoo941
Post by Ken
Post by Jadoo941
Post by Ken
intrinsically pure."
- Zen Master Seung Sahn
Marvelous.
I must comment tho that the Zen Master's statement flys in the face of
much
Post by Jadoo941
Post by Ken
of
Post by Jadoo941
what eckankar promotes. How do you reconcile this fact? Or do you?
I don't see that. Why don't you tell me exactly what it is in that
quote that's flying in the face of what Eckankar promotes. This
might be fun.
Sure. Let's start with ekcankar's basic beliefs.
Want to run them down for us?
As I've said before, I'm not quote boy. But the one pivital point that this
teaching does revolve around IMO is this ...
"The aim and purpose of ECKANKAR has always been to take Soul by
It's own path back to It's divine source."
And, "Soul exists because God loves It."
What are the contradictions do you see in these to the above quote?
They are as obvious as the nose on your face. Right there in front of you.
Look!
"The categories of existence and non-existence are applicable only in the realm
of the conditioned and phenomenal world." How can soul "exist" because god
loves it? That presupposes Soul didn't exist before god loved it! It's
nonsense. Soul IS. It is unconditioned luminosity. It doesn't need some
anthropormorphic godshot of "love" to bring it forth. If God IS, then Soul IS
and it is non-sensical to even try to differentiate between IT & IT.
That is actually a very good point. But what is IS? ;-)

And what of Love? Is it anything worth addressing at all?

Other writings by both Harold and Paul agree with you. It's pointed
out that yes, Soul *is* and has no beginning and no end.

The last line of the quote by Seung Sahn says, "Nevertheless, there is
a seed innate in every man that never dies, that is crystal-clear and
intrinsically pure." Now, how can such a "seed" be spoken of within
the realm of the unconditioned, the non-dual? The answer is, he is
of course speaking within the worlds of duality just as we are writing
to each other here, in the realm of the conditioned and phenomenal
world.

What is the nature of the Source of Being? A Zen response might
be, "The natureless nature, from the sourceless source". From the
Western perspective of the average person, that doesn't say very
much. The perspective or starting point of the listener necessarily
puts a certain limitations on what they are able to understand. So in
order to communicate one must speak in the language of the listener.

Anything that one can say about Spirit is less than the complete truth.
As Idries Shah has pointed out, "Maps do not equal the Terrain."
Post by Jadoo941
It's the same with your other quote, "The aim and purpose of eckankar has
always been to take Soul by It's own path back to It's divine source." eckankra
can't take Soul anywhere because it is no-where or should I say now-here? How
can It go where It wasn't before? When It gets "there" will it no longer be
"here"?? It's the Mad Hatter's Tea Party this eckankra. No wonder you are all
slightly bonkers.
If you really get Seung Sahn, it may be time for your leaving the childish play
of ekckakar Ken. eckankra may be as good as any other place for starters but a
way ugly place to stay long.
If it is ugly for you then it's certainly no place for you to be, unless of
course you want to be here <g>.
cher
2004-08-30 20:56:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ken
Post by Jadoo941
Subject: Re: Doug, tell me...
Date: 8/27/2004 10:49 AM Pacific Standard Time
Post by Jadoo941
Post by Ken
Post by Jadoo941
Post by Ken
Here's a quote I like a lot ...
"The Buddha said, 'Men come and go with empty hands. Then where
do they come from and where are they going? Life is like a cloud
floating across the sky and death is like its disappearance over the
mountain. As the cloud is without substance, so is man's life and
death.
Post by Jadoo941
Post by Ken
Post by Jadoo941
Post by Ken
It is all empty."
"The categories of existence and non-existence are applicable only in
the realm of the conditioned and phenomenal world. Nevertheless, there
is a seed innate in every man that never dies, that is crystal-clear
and
Post by Jadoo941
Post by Ken
Post by Jadoo941
Post by Ken
intrinsically pure."
- Zen Master Seung Sahn
Marvelous.
I must comment tho that the Zen Master's statement flys in the face of
much
Post by Jadoo941
Post by Ken
of
Post by Jadoo941
what eckankar promotes. How do you reconcile this fact? Or do you?
I don't see that. Why don't you tell me exactly what it is in that
quote that's flying in the face of what Eckankar promotes. This
might be fun.
Sure. Let's start with ekcankar's basic beliefs.
Want to run them down for us?
As I've said before, I'm not quote boy. But the one pivital point that this
teaching does revolve around IMO is this ...
"The aim and purpose of ECKANKAR has always been to take Soul by
It's own path back to It's divine source."
And, "Soul exists because God loves It."
What are the contradictions do you see in these to the above quote?
They are as obvious as the nose on your face. Right there in front of you.
Look!
"The categories of existence and non-existence are applicable only in the realm
of the conditioned and phenomenal world." How can soul "exist" because god
loves it? That presupposes Soul didn't exist before god loved it! It's
nonsense. Soul IS. It is unconditioned luminosity. It doesn't need some
anthropormorphic godshot of "love" to bring it forth. If God IS, then Soul IS
and it is non-sensical to even try to differentiate between IT & IT.
That is actually a very good point. But what is IS? ;-)
And what of Love? Is it anything worth addressing at all?
Other writings by both Harold and Paul agree with you. It's pointed
out that yes, Soul *is* and has no beginning and no end.
The last line of the quote by Seung Sahn says, "Nevertheless, there is
a seed innate in every man that never dies, that is crystal-clear and
intrinsically pure." Now, how can such a "seed" be spoken of within
the realm of the unconditioned, the non-dual? The answer is, he is
of course speaking within the worlds of duality just as we are writing
to each other here, in the realm of the conditioned and phenomenal
world.
What is the nature of the Source of Being? A Zen response might
be, "The natureless nature, from the sourceless source". From the
Western perspective of the average person, that doesn't say very
much. The perspective or starting point of the listener necessarily
puts a certain limitations on what they are able to understand. So in
order to communicate one must speak in the language of the listener.
Anything that one can say about Spirit is less than the complete truth.
As Idries Shah has pointed out, "Maps do not equal the Terrain."
Post by Jadoo941
It's the same with your other quote, "The aim and purpose of eckankar has
always been to take Soul by It's own path back to It's divine source." eckankra
can't take Soul anywhere because it is no-where or should I say now-here? How
can It go where It wasn't before? When It gets "there" will it no longer be
"here"?? It's the Mad Hatter's Tea Party this eckankra. No wonder you are all
slightly bonkers.
If you really get Seung Sahn, it may be time for your leaving the childish play
of ekckakar Ken. eckankra may be as good as any other place for starters but a
way ugly place to stay long.
If it is ugly for you then it's certainly no place for you to be, unless of
course you want to be here <g>.
I dug around and found http://www.kwanumzen.com/ I didn't realize that
this was a Buddhist School. Amazing. They even have patterns for the
appropriate garments to wear. $300/year or Family Full Membership -
$420/year. I guess that's reasonable. I also dug up this page:
http://www.kwanumzen.com/misc/temple-rules.html I'm going to print off
some of his articles to take some time with over tea. <smile>

I'm half wondering if the mix of ford's teachings is ending up in this
conversation? That's the only place i've seen the inability to practice
the teachings with imposing those teachings on others as judgments. He
does bring elements of Buddhism into his mix, along with a great deal of
Tony Robbins capitalism. <wink> Strange world....
marika
2021-08-01 23:47:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jadoo941
Subject: Re: Doug, tell me...
Date: 8/27/2004 10:49 AM Pacific Standard Time
Post by Jadoo941
Post by Jadoo941
Post by Ken
Here's a quote I like a lot ...
"The Buddha said, 'Men come and go with empty hands. Then where
do they come from and where are they going? Life is like a cloud
floating across the sky and death is like its disappearance over the
mountain. As the cloud is without substance, so is man's life and
death.
Post by Jadoo941
Post by Jadoo941
Post by Ken
It is all empty."
"The categories of existence and non-existence are applicable only in
the realm of the conditioned and phenomenal world. Nevertheless, there
is a seed innate in every man that never dies, that is crystal-clear
and
Post by Jadoo941
Post by Jadoo941
Post by Ken
intrinsically pure."
- Zen Master Seung Sahn
Marvelous.
I must comment tho that the Zen Master's statement flys in the face of
much
Post by Jadoo941
of
Post by Jadoo941
what eckankar promotes. How do you reconcile this fact? Or do you?
I don't see that. Why don't you tell me exactly what it is in that
quote that's flying in the face of what Eckankar promotes. This
might be fun.
Sure. Let's start with ekcankar's basic beliefs.
Want to run them down for us?
As I've said before, I'm not quote boy. But the one pivital point that this
teaching does revolve around IMO is this ...
"The aim and purpose of ECKANKAR has always been to take Soul by
It's own path back to It's divine source."
And, "Soul exists because God loves It."
What are the contradictions do you see in these to the above quote?
They are as obvious as the nose on your face. Right there in front of you.
Look!
"The categories of existence and non-existence are applicable only in the realm
of the conditioned and phenomenal world." How can soul "exist" because god
loves it? That presupposes Soul didn't exist before god loved it! It's
nonsense. Soul IS. It is unconditioned luminosity. It doesn't need some
anthropormorphic godshot of "love" to bring it forth. If God IS, then Soul IS
and it is non-sensical to even try to differentiate between IT & IT.
That is actually a very good point. But what is IS? ;-)
And what of Love? Is it anything worth addressing at all?
Other writings by both Harold and Paul agree with you. It's pointed
out that yes, Soul *is* and has no beginning and no end.
The last line of the quote by Seung Sahn says, "Nevertheless, there is
a seed innate in every man that never dies, that is crystal-clear and
intrinsically pure." Now, how can such a "seed" be spoken of within
the realm of the unconditioned, the non-dual? The answer is, he is
of course speaking within the worlds of duality just as we are writing
to each other here, in the realm of the conditioned and phenomenal
world.
What is the nature of the Source of Being? A Zen response might
be, "The natureless nature, from the sourceless source". From the
Western perspective of the average person, that doesn't say very
much. The perspective or starting point of the listener necessarily
puts a certain limitations on what they are able to understand. So in
order to communicate one must speak in the language of the listener.
Anything that one can say about Spirit is less than the complete truth.
As Idries Shah has pointed out, "Maps do not equal the Terrain."
Post by Jadoo941
It's the same with your other quote, "The aim and purpose of eckankar has
always been to take Soul by It's own path back to It's divine source." eckankra
can't take Soul anywhere because it is no-where or should I say now-here? How
can It go where It wasn't before? When It gets "there" will it no longer be
"here"?? It's the Mad Hatter's Tea Party this eckankra. No wonder you are all
slightly bonkers.
If you really get Seung Sahn, it may be time for your leaving the childish play
of ekckakar Ken. eckankra may be as good as any other place for starters but a
way ugly place to stay long.
If it is ugly for you then it's certainly no place for you to be, unless of
course you want to be here <g>.
I dug around and found http://www.kwanumzen.com/ I didn't realize that
this was a Buddhist School. Amazing. They even have patterns for the
appropriate garments to wear. $300/year or Family Full Membership -
http://www.kwanumzen.com/misc/temple-rules.html I'm going to print off
some of his articles to take some time with over tea. <smile>
I'm half wondering if the mix of ford's teachings is ending up in this
conversation? That's the only place i've seen the inability to practice
the teachings with imposing those teachings on others as judgments. He
does bring elements of Buddhism into his mix, along with a great deal of
Tony Robbins capitalism. <wink> Strange world....
Ok. Further instructions will continue in 12-24 hours.
Next step will be planting the seeds!

mk5000

Meonji eomneun paran haneul wiro
Baram ttaraganeun gureumcheoreom
Meolli gaji marayo
Geudaero meomulleojweo--"Rose" 가사
D.O.

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