Fake Master(s)

Post by Etznab
The Masters and Their Duties; subsection 2. WHAT IS A GENUINE MASTER?
"The Master is the only man manifesting in history in whom individualism and universalism are combined in their full expression, in spite of the assertion of some philosophers that such a combination is impossible. That is, the Master stands alone, is a law unto himself, does what he pleases, has what he wants, comes and goes absolutely at his own will, and asks no favors of no man. Neither can any man hinder him in the execution of his will. He is the only man who has no need to ask favors of others. He has all things at his own command. If he suffers hardships or inconveniences, that is because he chooses to do so for some purpose. He is the supreme giver, not a receiver; that is, he always pays for what he gets. He is slave to no one, is no time server, is bound by no rule or custom outside of himself and is a citizen of the whole world. [...]
"There is but one to whom the Master bows in humble submission - the Supreme Lord, Sat Purush. His sovereign will is the only law the Master recognizes, that and the universal law of all laws - love [word "love" in italics]. [... .]"
- The Path of the Masters, by "Julian Johnson", copyright 1939, 16th Edition 1997, pp. 180-181
That was from Chapter 3 in a book written by Julian Johnson. The name for the chapter was The Masters and Their Duties; subsection 2. WHAT IS A GENUINE MASTER?
https://archive.org/stream/ThePathOfTheMasters/ThePathOfTheMasters_djvu.txt
The "Master" who inspired Johnson's book was the Radhasoami master Maharaj Sawan Singh. His picture is here.
https://archive.org/details/ThePathOfTheMasters
"The ECK traveler is the only man ever manifested in all history in whom individualism and universalism are combined in their full expression. That is, the spiritual traveler stands alone, is a law unto himself, does what he pleases, has what he wants, comes and goes absolutely at his own will, and asks favors of no man. Neither can any man hinder him in the execution of his will. He is the only man who has no need to ask favors of others; he has all things at his own command. If he suffers hardships, or inconveniences, that is bacause he chooses to do so for some purpose. He always pays for what he gets. He is not a slave to anyone, is no time server, is not bound by any rule or custom outside of himself, and is a citizen of the whole world.
"There is but one to whom the spiritual traveler bows in humble submission - the Supreme SUGMAD - Lord of All things in the highest height of the spiritual worlds. ITS sovereign law is the only law the spiritual traveler recognizes ,and the universal law of all laws - Wisdon, Power and Freedom!"
- The Far Country, Copyright 1970, by Paul Twitchell 2rd Printing 1972, pp. 120-121 ("Rebazar Tarzs speaking" to Paul Twitchell)
https://archive.org/stream/farcountry017342mbp/farcountry017342mbp_djvu.txt
Paul Twitchell was a known plagiarist punished for his actions. He continued after that to copy more and more authors, with credit given to names like Rebazar Tarzs, etc. People have asked about Rebazar Tarzs and why would an eck master plagiarize so extensively? Why would an eck master lie about so much vital history?
The most important thing, perhaps, is whether Rebazar Tarzs actually was who Paul Twitchell said he was. Also what other people say / said and believe he was / is?
For example. Was / is Rebazar Tarzs a true historical living being? Was / is he a cover name for Paul Twitchell's extensive paraphrases, plagiarisms and copying, etc.? Big difference between real and unreal.
Mr. Johnson wrote about living masters; what they were like, their duties, etc. And he was writing about real living people, not imaginary beings made up to fool people into believing so many things that are not true. He wrote about the real thing, not imaginary placebos.
My comments are not meant to be vindictive, but simply commentary about what is the actual vs. imaginary truth. People fed untruth and partial truths for years will not easily let go even when the truth is shown to them. It's not just about fake news stories that so many want to believe in. It's also about made up pseudo history and religion. People often go off the deep end after you repeatedly show them the truth that they can't handle. Defending their fake pseudo truth(s) with more and more directed at their critics. IMHO.
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/nq-YKbmRt1Q/m/McAAY5zXAwAJ

Why doesn't the current leader of Eckankar take dictation from a Rebazar Tarzs? My guess is that he knows better. Paul Twitchell died a long time ago and long before so many people learned about his extensive copying and pseudo history. His successor (Darwin Gross), who was later named by Paul Twitchell's widow (the same who also married him for a time), was not so forthcoming about his predecessor's plagiarisms, etc. (even though Paul's widow would later, on at least two occasions, reportedly tell others that Paul made so many things up. So, IMHO, the current living master CANNOT get away with doing what Paul Twitchell did. Like plagiarize so many books and claim that Rebazar was the author. Look on the official Eckankar website and where the leader says Paul got his writings from. Why doesn't it say that Paul got his copied, paraphrased, plagiarized compiled words from Rebazar Tarzs?

How about because it is not really true that Rebazar Tarzs was a plagiarist? Paul Twitchell was the plagiarist, former pulp-fiction writer and "rascal" who didn't always tell the truth.

fife

2022-04-08 15:27:03 UTC

Why doesn't the current leader of Eckankar take dictation from a Rebazar Tarzs? My guess is that he knows better. Paul Twitchell died a long time ago and long before so many people learned about his extensive copying and pseudo history. His successor (Darwin Gross), who was later named by Paul Twitchell's widow (the same who also married him for a time), was not so forthcoming about his predecessor's plagiarisms, etc. (even though Paul's widow would later, on at least two occasions, reportedly tell others that Paul made so many things up. So, IMHO, the current living master CANNOT get away with doing what Paul Twitchell did. Like plagiarize so many books and claim that Rebazar was the author. Look on the official Eckankar website and where the leader says Paul got his writings from. Why doesn't it say that Paul got his copied, paraphrased, plagiarized compiled words from Rebazar Tarzs?
How about because it is not really true that Rebazar Tarzs was a plagiarist? Paul Twitchell was the plagiarist, former pulp-fiction writer and "rascal" who didn't always tell the truth.

Etznab:
What do you believe, how do you justify what you believe, and what have you decided is the truth about all this?

Pissing down everyone's neck every time you post just pisses people off and makes them want to come after you. It's got nothing to do with your veracity. If you really want to question Eckankar, learn how to question its ontology and epistemology.

Etznab

2022-04-08 21:02:06 UTC

Why doesn't the current leader of Eckankar take dictation from a Rebazar Tarzs? My guess is that he knows better. Paul Twitchell died a long time ago and long before so many people learned about his extensive copying and pseudo history. His successor (Darwin Gross), who was later named by Paul Twitchell's widow (the same who also married him for a time), was not so forthcoming about his predecessor's plagiarisms, etc. (even though Paul's widow would later, on at least two occasions, reportedly tell others that Paul made so many things up. So, IMHO, the current living master CANNOT get away with doing what Paul Twitchell did. Like plagiarize so many books and claim that Rebazar was the author. Look on the official Eckankar website and where the leader says Paul got his writings from. Why doesn't it say that Paul got his copied, paraphrased, plagiarized compiled words from Rebazar Tarzs?
How about because it is not really true that Rebazar Tarzs was a plagiarist? Paul Twitchell was the plagiarist, former pulp-fiction writer and "rascal" who didn't always tell the truth.

What do you believe, how do you justify what you believe, and what have you decided is the truth about all this?
Pissing down everyone's neck every time you post just pisses people off and makes them want to come after you. It's got nothing to do with your veracity. If you really want to question Eckankar, learn how to question its ontology and epistemology.

Oh. Now it's Fife.

Usually you jump on every are post and respond quickly. Especially posts by me. So where were you when I wrote about Kinpa, Fife and Atzumi? Funny thing that. Another reason I doubt your sincerity, because you can't criticize Kinpa; one of the most vile posters in a.r.e. history. Is this because you are Kinpa and can't criticize (let alone write to) yourself on a.r.e.?

But you can criticize me alright. And practically every post that I write going on years now. And you do it similarly as Kinpa. Like an immature adult with a bone to pick.

You already know what I believe, Fife. I believe in the plain and simple truth(s) about Eckankar, Eckankar masters and history.

Eckankar, the truth, is not some fantasy novel with a cult of people raising holy hell with everybody who doesn't believe and live in their imaginary la la land. Eckankar, the truth, is not a bunch of Kinpa's and Fife's disrespecting and twisting around the truth.

Paul Twitchell and Eckankar promote copied words under the guise of Eckankar masters, promote the pseudo history and religion concocted years ago, but with a few revisions. You know this, and I think your alter ego Kinpa knows it well too. In my opinion it's you and Kinpa who want to push the old eckankar spells of illusion and control the narrative.

Rebazar Tarzs and the Eck masters are like the saints in other religions you say? Every religion borrows from those before it and evolves the teachings (good stuff) says Kinpa? I don't like to always share the truth, because (like Paul Twitchell) I feel it's sometimes more fun to find out on your own, says Harold?

Oh really? How about stop cheapening the image of real masters and real history because some people are too gullible, or ignorant to know the truth from fantasy? Or want to get powerful and rich from converting as many as possible to believe in fictions?

Etznab

2022-04-08 21:29:06 UTC

Why doesn't the current leader of Eckankar take dictation from a Rebazar Tarzs? My guess is that he knows better. Paul Twitchell died a long time ago and long before so many people learned about his extensive copying and pseudo history. His successor (Darwin Gross), who was later named by Paul Twitchell's widow (the same who also married him for a time), was not so forthcoming about his predecessor's plagiarisms, etc. (even though Paul's widow would later, on at least two occasions, reportedly tell others that Paul made so many things up. So, IMHO, the current living master CANNOT get away with doing what Paul Twitchell did. Like plagiarize so many books and claim that Rebazar was the author. Look on the official Eckankar website and where the leader says Paul got his writings from. Why doesn't it say that Paul got his copied, paraphrased, plagiarized compiled words from Rebazar Tarzs?
How about because it is not really true that Rebazar Tarzs was a plagiarist? Paul Twitchell was the plagiarist, former pulp-fiction writer and "rascal" who didn't always tell the truth.

Oh. Now it's Fife.
Usually you jump on every are post and respond quickly. Especially posts by me. So where were you when I wrote about Kinpa, Fife and Atzumi? Funny thing that. Another reason I doubt your sincerity, because you can't criticize Kinpa; one of the most vile posters in a.r.e. history. Is this because you are Kinpa and can't criticize (let alone write to) yourself on a.r.e.?
But you can criticize me alright. And practically every post that I write going on years now. And you do it similarly as Kinpa. Like an immature adult with a bone to pick.
You already know what I believe, Fife. I believe in the plain and simple truth(s) about Eckankar, Eckankar masters and history.
Eckankar, the truth, is not some fantasy novel with a cult of people raising holy hell with everybody who doesn't believe and live in their imaginary la la land. Eckankar, the truth, is not a bunch of Kinpa's and Fife's disrespecting and twisting around the truth.
Paul Twitchell and Eckankar promote copied words under the guise of Eckankar masters, promote the pseudo history and religion concocted years ago, but with a few revisions. You know this, and I think your alter ego Kinpa knows it well too. In my opinion it's you and Kinpa who want to push the old eckankar spells of illusion and control the narrative.
Rebazar Tarzs and the Eck masters are like the saints in other religions you say? Every religion borrows from those before it and evolves the teachings (good stuff) says Kinpa? I don't like to always share the truth, because (like Paul Twitchell) I feel it's sometimes more fun to find out on your own, says Harold?
Oh really? How about stop cheapening the image of real masters and real history because some people are too gullible, or ignorant to know the truth from fantasy? Or want to get powerful and rich from converting as many as possible to believe in fictions?

For Fife the truth is piss.
For Kinpa the truth is poop.
This is what I hear you guys saying.

Kinpa

2022-04-09 15:05:26 UTC

Why doesn't the current leader of Eckankar take dictation from a Rebazar Tarzs? My guess is that he knows better. Paul Twitchell died a long time ago and long before so many people learned about his extensive copying and pseudo history. His successor (Darwin Gross), who was later named by Paul Twitchell's widow (the same who also married him for a time), was not so forthcoming about his predecessor's plagiarisms, etc. (even though Paul's widow would later, on at least two occasions, reportedly tell others that Paul made so many things up. So, IMHO, the current living master CANNOT get away with doing what Paul Twitchell did. Like plagiarize so many books and claim that Rebazar was the author. Look on the official Eckankar website and where the leader says Paul got his writings from. Why doesn't it say that Paul got his copied, paraphrased, plagiarized compiled words from Rebazar Tarzs?
How about because it is not really true that Rebazar Tarzs was a plagiarist? Paul Twitchell was the plagiarist, former pulp-fiction writer and "rascal" who didn't always tell the truth.

Oh. Now it's Fife.
Usually you jump on every are post and respond quickly. Especially posts by me. So where were you when I wrote about Kinpa, Fife and Atzumi? Funny thing that. Another reason I doubt your sincerity, because you can't criticize Kinpa; one of the most vile posters in a.r.e. history. Is this because you are Kinpa and can't criticize (let alone write to) yourself on a.r.e.?
But you can criticize me alright. And practically every post that I write going on years now. And you do it similarly as Kinpa. Like an immature adult with a bone to pick.
You already know what I believe, Fife. I believe in the plain and simple truth(s) about Eckankar, Eckankar masters and history.
Eckankar, the truth, is not some fantasy novel with a cult of people raising holy hell with everybody who doesn't believe and live in their imaginary la la land. Eckankar, the truth, is not a bunch of Kinpa's and Fife's disrespecting and twisting around the truth.
Paul Twitchell and Eckankar promote copied words under the guise of Eckankar masters, promote the pseudo history and religion concocted years ago, but with a few revisions. You know this, and I think your alter ego Kinpa knows it well too. In my opinion it's you and Kinpa who want to push the old eckankar spells of illusion and control the narrative.
Rebazar Tarzs and the Eck masters are like the saints in other religions you say? Every religion borrows from those before it and evolves the teachings (good stuff) says Kinpa? I don't like to always share the truth, because (like Paul Twitchell) I feel it's sometimes more fun to find out on your own, says Harold?
Oh really? How about stop cheapening the image of real masters and real history because some people are too gullible, or ignorant to know the truth from fantasy? Or want to get powerful and rich from converting as many as possible to believe in fictions?

For Fife the truth is piss.
For Kinpa the truth is poop.
This is what I hear you guys saying.

You forgot to clarify that you mean only YOUR truth, or your impression/understanding/interpretation of what is truth. And I never said the truth was shit, I said that the way you react to the things you find is shit. There is a large difference between the two. Buy a clue. Get a life.

Etznab

2022-04-13 18:53:50 UTC

Why doesn't the current leader of Eckankar take dictation from a Rebazar Tarzs? My guess is that he knows better. Paul Twitchell died a long time ago and long before so many people learned about his extensive copying and pseudo history. His successor (Darwin Gross), who was later named by Paul Twitchell's widow (the same who also married him for a time), was not so forthcoming about his predecessor's plagiarisms, etc. (even though Paul's widow would later, on at least two occasions, reportedly tell others that Paul made so many things up. So, IMHO, the current living master CANNOT get away with doing what Paul Twitchell did. Like plagiarize so many books and claim that Rebazar was the author. Look on the official Eckankar website and where the leader says Paul got his writings from. Why doesn't it say that Paul got his copied, paraphrased, plagiarized compiled words from Rebazar Tarzs?
How about because it is not really true that Rebazar Tarzs was a plagiarist? Paul Twitchell was the plagiarist, former pulp-fiction writer and "rascal" who didn't always tell the truth.

Oh. Now it's Fife.
Usually you jump on every are post and respond quickly. Especially posts by me. So where were you when I wrote about Kinpa, Fife and Atzumi? Funny thing that. Another reason I doubt your sincerity, because you can't criticize Kinpa; one of the most vile posters in a.r.e. history. Is this because you are Kinpa and can't criticize (let alone write to) yourself on a.r.e.?
But you can criticize me alright. And practically every post that I write going on years now. And you do it similarly as Kinpa. Like an immature adult with a bone to pick.
You already know what I believe, Fife. I believe in the plain and simple truth(s) about Eckankar, Eckankar masters and history.
Eckankar, the truth, is not some fantasy novel with a cult of people raising holy hell with everybody who doesn't believe and live in their imaginary la la land. Eckankar, the truth, is not a bunch of Kinpa's and Fife's disrespecting and twisting around the truth.
Paul Twitchell and Eckankar promote copied words under the guise of Eckankar masters, promote the pseudo history and religion concocted years ago, but with a few revisions. You know this, and I think your alter ego Kinpa knows it well too. In my opinion it's you and Kinpa who want to push the old eckankar spells of illusion and control the narrative.
Rebazar Tarzs and the Eck masters are like the saints in other religions you say? Every religion borrows from those before it and evolves the teachings (good stuff) says Kinpa? I don't like to always share the truth, because (like Paul Twitchell) I feel it's sometimes more fun to find out on your own, says Harold?
Oh really? How about stop cheapening the image of real masters and real history because some people are too gullible, or ignorant to know the truth from fantasy? Or want to get powerful and rich from converting as many as possible to believe in fictions?

For Fife the truth is piss.
For Kinpa the truth is poop.
This is what I hear you guys saying.

"[...] And I never said the truth was shit [... .]"

Kinpa. More than one person has reacted to your shit, truth, entertainment. And you continued to talk about your shit, truth How many times?

https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/nq-YKbmRt1Q/m/McAAY5zXAwAJ

But you never said the truth was shit, you say? Well, I'm glad to see you admit that.

No mention of shit here.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mul_Mantar#Text

Etznab

2022-04-17 13:01:55 UTC

Why doesn't the current leader of Eckankar take dictation from a Rebazar Tarzs? My guess is that he knows better. Paul Twitchell died a long time ago and long before so many people learned about his extensive copying and pseudo history. His successor (Darwin Gross), who was later named by Paul Twitchell's widow (the same who also married him for a time), was not so forthcoming about his predecessor's plagiarisms, etc. (even though Paul's widow would later, on at least two occasions, reportedly tell others that Paul made so many things up. So, IMHO, the current living master CANNOT get away with doing what Paul Twitchell did. Like plagiarize so many books and claim that Rebazar was the author. Look on the official Eckankar website and where the leader says Paul got his writings from. Why doesn't it say that Paul got his copied, paraphrased, plagiarized compiled words from Rebazar Tarzs?
How about because it is not really true that Rebazar Tarzs was a plagiarist? Paul Twitchell was the plagiarist, former pulp-fiction writer and "rascal" who didn't always tell the truth.

Oh. Now it's Fife.
Usually you jump on every are post and respond quickly. Especially posts by me. So where were you when I wrote about Kinpa, Fife and Atzumi? Funny thing that. Another reason I doubt your sincerity, because you can't criticize Kinpa; one of the most vile posters in a.r.e. history. Is this because you are Kinpa and can't criticize (let alone write to) yourself on a.r.e.?
But you can criticize me alright. And practically every post that I write going on years now. And you do it similarly as Kinpa. Like an immature adult with a bone to pick.
You already know what I believe, Fife. I believe in the plain and simple truth(s) about Eckankar, Eckankar masters and history.
Eckankar, the truth, is not some fantasy novel with a cult of people raising holy hell with everybody who doesn't believe and live in their imaginary la la land. Eckankar, the truth, is not a bunch of Kinpa's and Fife's disrespecting and twisting around the truth.
Paul Twitchell and Eckankar promote copied words under the guise of Eckankar masters, promote the pseudo history and religion concocted years ago, but with a few revisions. You know this, and I think your alter ego Kinpa knows it well too. In my opinion it's you and Kinpa who want to push the old eckankar spells of illusion and control the narrative.
Rebazar Tarzs and the Eck masters are like the saints in other religions you say? Every religion borrows from those before it and evolves the teachings (good stuff) says Kinpa? I don't like to always share the truth, because (like Paul Twitchell) I feel it's sometimes more fun to find out on your own, says Harold?
Oh really? How about stop cheapening the image of real masters and real history because some people are too gullible, or ignorant to know the truth from fantasy? Or want to get powerful and rich from converting as many as possible to believe in fictions?

For Fife the truth is piss.
For Kinpa the truth is poop.
This is what I hear you guys saying.

This is history that you can confirm.

https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/0F48S7AlusM/m/ybBpiTCoAAAJ

The quotes by Paul Twitchell can be clarified. 1963 and 1969 have Paul Twitchell as source. For The Far Country book, published around 1970 - the same year that Eckankar became a religion - Paul has the words coming from Rebazar Tarzs.

Many years before any of what Paul Twitchell wrote, history confirms what Julian Johnson wrote.

The link shows examples of What Paul Twitchell wrote, and it shows what Paul claimed that Rebazar Tarzs said. Rebazar Tarzs came into the picture later. And You say Rebazar Tarzs didn't plagiarize, but that Paul Twitchell did. O.K. No argument there. You also say that plagiarism doesn't prove that Rebazar was a fake master?

Kinpa. How can those words belong to Rebazar Tarzs? Where is the history that he spoke them to Paul Twitchell? IOW, Where is the history of a Rebazar Tarzs.

My truth you say? It looks like you are simply hard-headed when it comes to acknowledging certain truth based on who illustrated them.

Doug Marman. Will you accept his truth?

"[...] The only area that I don't think looks good is Paul's lack of crediting his sources, to the point of making it look like he, or Rebazar Tarzs, was the original source. This looks especially bad these days, since copyright law has become much more controlled and publicized. However, it doesn't appear to have been much of a problem while Paul was alive. [... .]"

https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/Er0VHRTk_sc/m/NQYn-wQ00FIJ

"Paul fictionalized his accounts, because he was an experienced writer and knew that stories were far more effective than lectures. Paul set himself up as simply a seeker, in The Tiger's Fang, because he knew from experience that people learn very differently from those who come across as authorities, than from someone who they can identify with, who is describing a personal experience. He created the dialog with Rebazar Tarzs, in The Far Country, because this was a much more effective and interesting way of communicating, than simply pontificating."

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.religion.eckankar/cHzE0Cdcfy4/M6ZJAPyvTNsJ

The Tiger's Fang was one of the first published Eckankar books. The apologist says: "He created the dialog with Rebazar Tarzs, in The Far Country, because this was a much more effective and interesting way of communicating, than simply pontificating."

I would add: "Created with copied, paraphrased and plagiarized words."

Created? Fictionalized? Faked? What don't you understand, Kinpa?

Another Doug Marman truth.

"Strange as it may seem today, back when Paul began writing his books, such as The Far Country, the creation of myth was still seen as a necessary requirement of most spiritual paths."

https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/GBwgDKAztbI/m/zAJCPXv-SP8J

Rebazar Tarzs was created? Fiction? Myth?

HOW ABOUT FAKE? HOW ABOUT NOT REAL?

Your truth? Doug's truth? My truth? HOW ABOUT THE TRUTH? EVER HEAR OF THAT?

It is true that Doug Marman wrote the quotes I presented. They can be verified as THE TRUTH. IOW, written by Doug.

Doug Marman quotes from May, 1999.

"Paul used a technique known to writers as fictionalization. This is when an author would like to present a bunch of important information but doesn't want to do it in a boring, preaching way, but would rather present the material in a way that not only says something, but also shows something."

"As for the changing of the names, well Paul first offered these manuscripts to Kirpal for him to publish, to help spread the teaching under Kirpal's name. Kirpal rejected them. Paul chose to distance himself from Kirpal, rather than ride on the coattails of Sant Mat. This left Paul free to teach a number of things that are not taught within Sant Mat, and yet teach the ancient truth at the same time."

https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/4ysJK655x2I/m/BkzOX1azAwAJ

How did your idol answer the question about fake masters? I already showed you what Doug wrote. Here are some more quotes.

When Doug Marman was asked:

"3. Did Paul Twitchell copy other writers works?"

How did Doug answer?

"Yes. Well, I guess I can give yes or no answers sometimes."

When Doug Marman was asked:

"4. Did Paul Twitchell use other writers words and put his Eck masters names on them as if the Eck Master were saying them?"

How did Doug answer?

He answered: "Yes."

Based on: - A Few Responses - Doug Marman - February 8th, 2004

http://www.thetruth-seeker.com/dispBB.aspx?st=268&page=168#m264

https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/RZi5pwN4JgU/m/8vCxP_6cAQAJ

It's called faking, Kinpa. Paul Twitchell not only faked Eck Masters, he faked a lot of history. A lot of true history.

Now you know about faking, right? All those things you told me that were fake? All the poop accidents. That I was not a member of Eckankar. Rember? And when you faked the expiration date of my membership card? They are just four letters. Just like the names Kinpa and Fife. Let's look at those letters in large caps.

FAKE, FAKE, FAKE, FAKE, FAKE, FAKE, FAKE, FAKE, FAKE!

Etznab

2022-04-17 13:21:10 UTC

Why doesn't the current leader of Eckankar take dictation from a Rebazar Tarzs? My guess is that he knows better. Paul Twitchell died a long time ago and long before so many people learned about his extensive copying and pseudo history. His successor (Darwin Gross), who was later named by Paul Twitchell's widow (the same who also married him for a time), was not so forthcoming about his predecessor's plagiarisms, etc. (even though Paul's widow would later, on at least two occasions, reportedly tell others that Paul made so many things up. So, IMHO, the current living master CANNOT get away with doing what Paul Twitchell did. Like plagiarize so many books and claim that Rebazar was the author. Look on the official Eckankar website and where the leader says Paul got his writings from. Why doesn't it say that Paul got his copied, paraphrased, plagiarized compiled words from Rebazar Tarzs?
How about because it is not really true that Rebazar Tarzs was a plagiarist? Paul Twitchell was the plagiarist, former pulp-fiction writer and "rascal" who didn't always tell the truth.

Oh. Now it's Fife.
Usually you jump on every are post and respond quickly. Especially posts by me. So where were you when I wrote about Kinpa, Fife and Atzumi? Funny thing that. Another reason I doubt your sincerity, because you can't criticize Kinpa; one of the most vile posters in a.r.e. history. Is this because you are Kinpa and can't criticize (let alone write to) yourself on a.r.e.?
But you can criticize me alright. And practically every post that I write going on years now. And you do it similarly as Kinpa. Like an immature adult with a bone to pick.
You already know what I believe, Fife. I believe in the plain and simple truth(s) about Eckankar, Eckankar masters and history.
Eckankar, the truth, is not some fantasy novel with a cult of people raising holy hell with everybody who doesn't believe and live in their imaginary la la land. Eckankar, the truth, is not a bunch of Kinpa's and Fife's disrespecting and twisting around the truth.
Paul Twitchell and Eckankar promote copied words under the guise of Eckankar masters, promote the pseudo history and religion concocted years ago, but with a few revisions. You know this, and I think your alter ego Kinpa knows it well too. In my opinion it's you and Kinpa who want to push the old eckankar spells of illusion and control the narrative.
Rebazar Tarzs and the Eck masters are like the saints in other religions you say? Every religion borrows from those before it and evolves the teachings (good stuff) says Kinpa? I don't like to always share the truth, because (like Paul Twitchell) I feel it's sometimes more fun to find out on your own, says Harold?
Oh really? How about stop cheapening the image of real masters and real history because some people are too gullible, or ignorant to know the truth from fantasy? Or want to get powerful and rich from converting as many as possible to believe in fictions?

For Fife the truth is piss.
For Kinpa the truth is poop.
This is what I hear you guys saying.

This is history that you can confirm.
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/0F48S7AlusM/m/ybBpiTCoAAAJ
The quotes by Paul Twitchell can be clarified. 1963 and 1969 have Paul Twitchell as source. For The Far Country book, published around 1970 - the same year that Eckankar became a religion - Paul has the words coming from Rebazar Tarzs.
Many years before any of what Paul Twitchell wrote, history confirms what Julian Johnson wrote.
The link shows examples of What Paul Twitchell wrote, and it shows what Paul claimed that Rebazar Tarzs said. Rebazar Tarzs came into the picture later. And You say Rebazar Tarzs didn't plagiarize, but that Paul Twitchell did. O.K. No argument there. You also say that plagiarism doesn't prove that Rebazar was a fake master?
Kinpa. How can those words belong to Rebazar Tarzs? Where is the history that he spoke them to Paul Twitchell? IOW, Where is the history of a Rebazar Tarzs.
My truth you say? It looks like you are simply hard-headed when it comes to acknowledging certain truth based on who illustrated them.
Doug Marman. Will you accept his truth?
"[...] The only area that I don't think looks good is Paul's lack of crediting his sources, to the point of making it look like he, or Rebazar Tarzs, was the original source. This looks especially bad these days, since copyright law has become much more controlled and publicized. However, it doesn't appear to have been much of a problem while Paul was alive. [... .]"
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/Er0VHRTk_sc/m/NQYn-wQ00FIJ
"Paul fictionalized his accounts, because he was an experienced writer and knew that stories were far more effective than lectures. Paul set himself up as simply a seeker, in The Tiger's Fang, because he knew from experience that people learn very differently from those who come across as authorities, than from someone who they can identify with, who is describing a personal experience. He created the dialog with Rebazar Tarzs, in The Far Country, because this was a much more effective and interesting way of communicating, than simply pontificating."
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.religion.eckankar/cHzE0Cdcfy4/M6ZJAPyvTNsJ
The Tiger's Fang was one of the first published Eckankar books. The apologist says: "He created the dialog with Rebazar Tarzs, in The Far Country, because this was a much more effective and interesting way of communicating, than simply pontificating."
I would add: "Created with copied, paraphrased and plagiarized words."
Created? Fictionalized? Faked? What don't you understand, Kinpa?
Another Doug Marman truth.
"Strange as it may seem today, back when Paul began writing his books, such as The Far Country, the creation of myth was still seen as a necessary requirement of most spiritual paths."
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/GBwgDKAztbI/m/zAJCPXv-SP8J
Rebazar Tarzs was created? Fiction? Myth?
HOW ABOUT FAKE? HOW ABOUT NOT REAL?
Your truth? Doug's truth? My truth? HOW ABOUT THE TRUTH? EVER HEAR OF THAT?
It is true that Doug Marman wrote the quotes I presented. They can be verified as THE TRUTH. IOW, written by Doug.
Doug Marman quotes from May, 1999.
"Paul used a technique known to writers as fictionalization. This is when an author would like to present a bunch of important information but doesn't want to do it in a boring, preaching way, but would rather present the material in a way that not only says something, but also shows something."
"As for the changing of the names, well Paul first offered these manuscripts to Kirpal for him to publish, to help spread the teaching under Kirpal's name. Kirpal rejected them. Paul chose to distance himself from Kirpal, rather than ride on the coattails of Sant Mat. This left Paul free to teach a number of things that are not taught within Sant Mat, and yet teach the ancient truth at the same time."
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/4ysJK655x2I/m/BkzOX1azAwAJ
How did your idol answer the question about fake masters? I already showed you what Doug wrote. Here are some more quotes.
"3. Did Paul Twitchell copy other writers works?"
How did Doug answer?
"Yes. Well, I guess I can give yes or no answers sometimes."
"4. Did Paul Twitchell use other writers words and put his Eck masters names on them as if the Eck Master were saying them?"
How did Doug answer?
He answered: "Yes."
Based on: - A Few Responses - Doug Marman - February 8th, 2004
http://www.thetruth-seeker.com/dispBB.aspx?st=268&page=168#m264
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/RZi5pwN4JgU/m/8vCxP_6cAQAJ
It's called faking, Kinpa. Paul Twitchell not only faked Eck Masters, he faked a lot of history. A lot of true history.
Now you know about faking, right? All those things you told me that were fake? All the poop accidents. That I was not a member of Eckankar. Rember? And when you faked the expiration date of my membership card? They are just four letters. Just like the names Kinpa and Fife. Let's look at those letters in large caps.
FAKE, FAKE, FAKE, FAKE, FAKE, FAKE, FAKE, FAKE, FAKE!

Paul Twitchell faked and fictionalized. End of story.

Now you will tell me that faking Eck Masters doesn't prove they don't exist? You're so attached to them that you see them talking to you? You believe they talked to other people too? But you can't believe in fake masters as real. You can imagine them as real! You and a whole lot of others. You can imagine the reams of words by Rebazar Tarzs were spoken by Rebazar Tarzs. Others can imagine too. Especially after you show them pictures of Rebazar Tarzs and a boat load of fake words by Rebazar Tarzs, such as what may occur at Eckankar booths and introductory Eckankar events when people ask about Rebazar Tarzs and what he said to Paul Twitchell.

You can even imagine the stories Eckankar posts on its official website about Eckankar masters are true as well. However, that doesn't prove they are about real Rebazar Tarzs vs. fake Rebazar Tarzs. Not without proof, as you would say. They are only words.

Take it from an Eckist, Kinpa. There is no need to believe in a fake Rebazar Tarzs. One can be a member of Eckankar and not believe as literally true all of the fictions, or fake master dialogues that consist of so many plagiarized words that Paul Twitchell thought were important and worth showing (according to Doug). Pretty dramatic way of showing them aye? Yeah. I agree. I also agree a lot of the copied words were interesting and a good read. That said, I still don't have to believe in any fake masters as if they are real. I can imagine them as real if I want, but not when I would rather have the truth.

Kinpa

2022-04-17 14:52:10 UTC

Why doesn't the current leader of Eckankar take dictation from a Rebazar Tarzs? My guess is that he knows better. Paul Twitchell died a long time ago and long before so many people learned about his extensive copying and pseudo history. His successor (Darwin Gross), who was later named by Paul Twitchell's widow (the same who also married him for a time), was not so forthcoming about his predecessor's plagiarisms, etc. (even though Paul's widow would later, on at least two occasions, reportedly tell others that Paul made so many things up. So, IMHO, the current living master CANNOT get away with doing what Paul Twitchell did. Like plagiarize so many books and claim that Rebazar was the author. Look on the official Eckankar website and where the leader says Paul got his writings from. Why doesn't it say that Paul got his copied, paraphrased, plagiarized compiled words from Rebazar Tarzs?
How about because it is not really true that Rebazar Tarzs was a plagiarist? Paul Twitchell was the plagiarist, former pulp-fiction writer and "rascal" who didn't always tell the truth.

Oh. Now it's Fife.
Usually you jump on every are post and respond quickly. Especially posts by me. So where were you when I wrote about Kinpa, Fife and Atzumi? Funny thing that. Another reason I doubt your sincerity, because you can't criticize Kinpa; one of the most vile posters in a.r.e. history. Is this because you are Kinpa and can't criticize (let alone write to) yourself on a.r.e.?
But you can criticize me alright. And practically every post that I write going on years now. And you do it similarly as Kinpa. Like an immature adult with a bone to pick.
You already know what I believe, Fife. I believe in the plain and simple truth(s) about Eckankar, Eckankar masters and history.
Eckankar, the truth, is not some fantasy novel with a cult of people raising holy hell with everybody who doesn't believe and live in their imaginary la la land. Eckankar, the truth, is not a bunch of Kinpa's and Fife's disrespecting and twisting around the truth.
Paul Twitchell and Eckankar promote copied words under the guise of Eckankar masters, promote the pseudo history and religion concocted years ago, but with a few revisions. You know this, and I think your alter ego Kinpa knows it well too. In my opinion it's you and Kinpa who want to push the old eckankar spells of illusion and control the narrative.
Rebazar Tarzs and the Eck masters are like the saints in other religions you say? Every religion borrows from those before it and evolves the teachings (good stuff) says Kinpa? I don't like to always share the truth, because (like Paul Twitchell) I feel it's sometimes more fun to find out on your own, says Harold?
Oh really? How about stop cheapening the image of real masters and real history because some people are too gullible, or ignorant to know the truth from fantasy? Or want to get powerful and rich from converting as many as possible to believe in fictions?

For Fife the truth is piss.
For Kinpa the truth is poop.
This is what I hear you guys saying.

This is history that you can confirm.
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/0F48S7AlusM/m/ybBpiTCoAAAJ
The quotes by Paul Twitchell can be clarified. 1963 and 1969 have Paul Twitchell as source. For The Far Country book, published around 1970 - the same year that Eckankar became a religion - Paul has the words coming from Rebazar Tarzs.
Many years before any of what Paul Twitchell wrote, history confirms what Julian Johnson wrote.
The link shows examples of What Paul Twitchell wrote, and it shows what Paul claimed that Rebazar Tarzs said. Rebazar Tarzs came into the picture later. And You say Rebazar Tarzs didn't plagiarize, but that Paul Twitchell did. O.K. No argument there. You also say that plagiarism doesn't prove that Rebazar was a fake master?
Kinpa. How can those words belong to Rebazar Tarzs? Where is the history that he spoke them to Paul Twitchell? IOW, Where is the history of a Rebazar Tarzs.
My truth you say? It looks like you are simply hard-headed when it comes to acknowledging certain truth based on who illustrated them.
Doug Marman. Will you accept his truth?
"[...] The only area that I don't think looks good is Paul's lack of crediting his sources, to the point of making it look like he, or Rebazar Tarzs, was the original source. This looks especially bad these days, since copyright law has become much more controlled and publicized. However, it doesn't appear to have been much of a problem while Paul was alive. [... .]"
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/Er0VHRTk_sc/m/NQYn-wQ00FIJ
"Paul fictionalized his accounts, because he was an experienced writer and knew that stories were far more effective than lectures. Paul set himself up as simply a seeker, in The Tiger's Fang, because he knew from experience that people learn very differently from those who come across as authorities, than from someone who they can identify with, who is describing a personal experience. He created the dialog with Rebazar Tarzs, in The Far Country, because this was a much more effective and interesting way of communicating, than simply pontificating."
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.religion.eckankar/cHzE0Cdcfy4/M6ZJAPyvTNsJ
The Tiger's Fang was one of the first published Eckankar books. The apologist says: "He created the dialog with Rebazar Tarzs, in The Far Country, because this was a much more effective and interesting way of communicating, than simply pontificating."
I would add: "Created with copied, paraphrased and plagiarized words."
Created? Fictionalized? Faked? What don't you understand, Kinpa?
Another Doug Marman truth.
"Strange as it may seem today, back when Paul began writing his books, such as The Far Country, the creation of myth was still seen as a necessary requirement of most spiritual paths."
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/GBwgDKAztbI/m/zAJCPXv-SP8J
Rebazar Tarzs was created? Fiction? Myth?
HOW ABOUT FAKE? HOW ABOUT NOT REAL?
Your truth? Doug's truth? My truth? HOW ABOUT THE TRUTH? EVER HEAR OF THAT?
It is true that Doug Marman wrote the quotes I presented. They can be verified as THE TRUTH. IOW, written by Doug.
Doug Marman quotes from May, 1999.
"Paul used a technique known to writers as fictionalization. This is when an author would like to present a bunch of important information but doesn't want to do it in a boring, preaching way, but would rather present the material in a way that not only says something, but also shows something."
"As for the changing of the names, well Paul first offered these manuscripts to Kirpal for him to publish, to help spread the teaching under Kirpal's name. Kirpal rejected them. Paul chose to distance himself from Kirpal, rather than ride on the coattails of Sant Mat. This left Paul free to teach a number of things that are not taught within Sant Mat, and yet teach the ancient truth at the same time."
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/4ysJK655x2I/m/BkzOX1azAwAJ
How did your idol answer the question about fake masters? I already showed you what Doug wrote. Here are some more quotes.
"3. Did Paul Twitchell copy other writers works?"
How did Doug answer?
"Yes. Well, I guess I can give yes or no answers sometimes."
"4. Did Paul Twitchell use other writers words and put his Eck masters names on them as if the Eck Master were saying them?"
How did Doug answer?
He answered: "Yes."
Based on: - A Few Responses - Doug Marman - February 8th, 2004
http://www.thetruth-seeker.com/dispBB.aspx?st=268&page=168#m264
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/RZi5pwN4JgU/m/8vCxP_6cAQAJ
It's called faking, Kinpa. Paul Twitchell not only faked Eck Masters, he faked a lot of history. A lot of true history.
Now you know about faking, right? All those things you told me that were fake? All the poop accidents. That I was not a member of Eckankar. Rember? And when you faked the expiration date of my membership card? They are just four letters. Just like the names Kinpa and Fife. Let's look at those letters in large caps.
FAKE, FAKE, FAKE, FAKE, FAKE, FAKE, FAKE, FAKE, FAKE!

Paul Twitchell faked and fictionalized. End of story.
Now you will tell me that faking Eck Masters doesn't prove they don't exist? You're so attached to them that you see them talking to you? You believe they talked to other people too? But you can't believe in fake masters as real. You can imagine them as real! You and a whole lot of others. You can imagine the reams of words by Rebazar Tarzs were spoken by Rebazar Tarzs. Others can imagine too. Especially after you show them pictures of Rebazar Tarzs and a boat load of fake words by Rebazar Tarzs, such as what may occur at Eckankar booths and introductory Eckankar events when people ask about Rebazar Tarzs and what he said to Paul Twitchell.
You can even imagine the stories Eckankar posts on its official website about Eckankar masters are true as well. However, that doesn't prove they are about real Rebazar Tarzs vs. fake Rebazar Tarzs. Not without proof, as you would say. They are only words.
Take it from an Eckist, Kinpa. There is no need to believe in a fake Rebazar Tarzs. One can be a member of Eckankar and not believe as literally true all of the fictions, or fake master dialogues that consist of so many plagiarized words that Paul Twitchell thought were important and worth showing (according to Doug). Pretty dramatic way of showing them aye? Yeah. I agree. I also agree a lot of the copied words were interesting and a good read. That said, I still don't have to believe in any fake masters as if they are real. I can imagine them as real if I want, but not when I would rather have the truth.

100% Etznab's opinion, and opinions are exactly like anal orifices, everyone has one and most stink.

Nice rant I guess, but he still hasn't proven anyone to be "fake." Do that first of all, only don't use any incidence of plagiarism, because that only proves the words plagiarized, nothing more. Whether a person who is reported to have said them for the sake of a book actually did or not is irrelevant, and doesn't prove them to be a fiction. You are confusing a number of thins as being the same thing. How do you not realize that?

In the end you only BELIEVE the reports of that name are a fiction, that the individual cannot possibly exist i n reality due to the plagiarizing. So why don't you ever say THAT? Instead you assume more meaning than you can actually prove. It still isn't rocket science. GTherefore, I am STILL awaiting you to show any actual evidence to support your claim, but none is forthcoming. Perhaps because you can't actually prove that one thing at all.

Should I just take that and believe it true the way that you base numerous claims you can't prove on an instance of plagiarism?? Wouldn't I only be doing the same thing that you do often?

You can rant all you'd like, but until you show actual evidence that isn't an incidence of plagiarized words, you've not proven much of anything and your claim must be considered nothing more than belief.

Etznab

2022-04-17 20:51:53 UTC

Why doesn't the current leader of Eckankar take dictation from a Rebazar Tarzs? My guess is that he knows better. Paul Twitchell died a long time ago and long before so many people learned about his extensive copying and pseudo history. His successor (Darwin Gross), who was later named by Paul Twitchell's widow (the same who also married him for a time), was not so forthcoming about his predecessor's plagiarisms, etc. (even though Paul's widow would later, on at least two occasions, reportedly tell others that Paul made so many things up. So, IMHO, the current living master CANNOT get away with doing what Paul Twitchell did. Like plagiarize so many books and claim that Rebazar was the author. Look on the official Eckankar website and where the leader says Paul got his writings from. Why doesn't it say that Paul got his copied, paraphrased, plagiarized compiled words from Rebazar Tarzs?
How about because it is not really true that Rebazar Tarzs was a plagiarist? Paul Twitchell was the plagiarist, former pulp-fiction writer and "rascal" who didn't always tell the truth.

Oh. Now it's Fife.
Usually you jump on every are post and respond quickly. Especially posts by me. So where were you when I wrote about Kinpa, Fife and Atzumi? Funny thing that. Another reason I doubt your sincerity, because you can't criticize Kinpa; one of the most vile posters in a.r.e. history. Is this because you are Kinpa and can't criticize (let alone write to) yourself on a.r.e.?
But you can criticize me alright. And practically every post that I write going on years now. And you do it similarly as Kinpa. Like an immature adult with a bone to pick.
You already know what I believe, Fife. I believe in the plain and simple truth(s) about Eckankar, Eckankar masters and history.
Eckankar, the truth, is not some fantasy novel with a cult of people raising holy hell with everybody who doesn't believe and live in their imaginary la la land. Eckankar, the truth, is not a bunch of Kinpa's and Fife's disrespecting and twisting around the truth.
Paul Twitchell and Eckankar promote copied words under the guise of Eckankar masters, promote the pseudo history and religion concocted years ago, but with a few revisions. You know this, and I think your alter ego Kinpa knows it well too. In my opinion it's you and Kinpa who want to push the old eckankar spells of illusion and control the narrative.
Rebazar Tarzs and the Eck masters are like the saints in other religions you say? Every religion borrows from those before it and evolves the teachings (good stuff) says Kinpa? I don't like to always share the truth, because (like Paul Twitchell) I feel it's sometimes more fun to find out on your own, says Harold?
Oh really? How about stop cheapening the image of real masters and real history because some people are too gullible, or ignorant to know the truth from fantasy? Or want to get powerful and rich from converting as many as possible to believe in fictions?

For Fife the truth is piss.
For Kinpa the truth is poop.
This is what I hear you guys saying.

This is history that you can confirm.
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/0F48S7AlusM/m/ybBpiTCoAAAJ
The quotes by Paul Twitchell can be clarified. 1963 and 1969 have Paul Twitchell as source. For The Far Country book, published around 1970 - the same year that Eckankar became a religion - Paul has the words coming from Rebazar Tarzs.
Many years before any of what Paul Twitchell wrote, history confirms what Julian Johnson wrote.
The link shows examples of What Paul Twitchell wrote, and it shows what Paul claimed that Rebazar Tarzs said. Rebazar Tarzs came into the picture later. And You say Rebazar Tarzs didn't plagiarize, but that Paul Twitchell did. O.K. No argument there. You also say that plagiarism doesn't prove that Rebazar was a fake master?
Kinpa. How can those words belong to Rebazar Tarzs? Where is the history that he spoke them to Paul Twitchell? IOW, Where is the history of a Rebazar Tarzs.
My truth you say? It looks like you are simply hard-headed when it comes to acknowledging certain truth based on who illustrated them.
Doug Marman. Will you accept his truth?
"[...] The only area that I don't think looks good is Paul's lack of crediting his sources, to the point of making it look like he, or Rebazar Tarzs, was the original source. This looks especially bad these days, since copyright law has become much more controlled and publicized. However, it doesn't appear to have been much of a problem while Paul was alive. [... .]"
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/Er0VHRTk_sc/m/NQYn-wQ00FIJ
"Paul fictionalized his accounts, because he was an experienced writer and knew that stories were far more effective than lectures. Paul set himself up as simply a seeker, in The Tiger's Fang, because he knew from experience that people learn very differently from those who come across as authorities, than from someone who they can identify with, who is describing a personal experience. He created the dialog with Rebazar Tarzs, in The Far Country, because this was a much more effective and interesting way of communicating, than simply pontificating."
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.religion.eckankar/cHzE0Cdcfy4/M6ZJAPyvTNsJ
The Tiger's Fang was one of the first published Eckankar books. The apologist says: "He created the dialog with Rebazar Tarzs, in The Far Country, because this was a much more effective and interesting way of communicating, than simply pontificating."
I would add: "Created with copied, paraphrased and plagiarized words."
Created? Fictionalized? Faked? What don't you understand, Kinpa?
Another Doug Marman truth.
"Strange as it may seem today, back when Paul began writing his books, such as The Far Country, the creation of myth was still seen as a necessary requirement of most spiritual paths."
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/GBwgDKAztbI/m/zAJCPXv-SP8J
Rebazar Tarzs was created? Fiction? Myth?
HOW ABOUT FAKE? HOW ABOUT NOT REAL?
Your truth? Doug's truth? My truth? HOW ABOUT THE TRUTH? EVER HEAR OF THAT?
It is true that Doug Marman wrote the quotes I presented. They can be verified as THE TRUTH. IOW, written by Doug.
Doug Marman quotes from May, 1999.
"Paul used a technique known to writers as fictionalization. This is when an author would like to present a bunch of important information but doesn't want to do it in a boring, preaching way, but would rather present the material in a way that not only says something, but also shows something."
"As for the changing of the names, well Paul first offered these manuscripts to Kirpal for him to publish, to help spread the teaching under Kirpal's name. Kirpal rejected them. Paul chose to distance himself from Kirpal, rather than ride on the coattails of Sant Mat. This left Paul free to teach a number of things that are not taught within Sant Mat, and yet teach the ancient truth at the same time."
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/4ysJK655x2I/m/BkzOX1azAwAJ
How did your idol answer the question about fake masters? I already showed you what Doug wrote. Here are some more quotes.
"3. Did Paul Twitchell copy other writers works?"
How did Doug answer?
"Yes. Well, I guess I can give yes or no answers sometimes."
"4. Did Paul Twitchell use other writers words and put his Eck masters names on them as if the Eck Master were saying them?"
How did Doug answer?
He answered: "Yes."
Based on: - A Few Responses - Doug Marman - February 8th, 2004
http://www.thetruth-seeker.com/dispBB.aspx?st=268&page=168#m264
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/RZi5pwN4JgU/m/8vCxP_6cAQAJ
It's called faking, Kinpa. Paul Twitchell not only faked Eck Masters, he faked a lot of history. A lot of true history.
Now you know about faking, right? All those things you told me that were fake? All the poop accidents. That I was not a member of Eckankar. Rember? And when you faked the expiration date of my membership card? They are just four letters. Just like the names Kinpa and Fife. Let's look at those letters in large caps.
FAKE, FAKE, FAKE, FAKE, FAKE, FAKE, FAKE, FAKE, FAKE!

Paul Twitchell faked and fictionalized. End of story.
Now you will tell me that faking Eck Masters doesn't prove they don't exist? You're so attached to them that you see them talking to you? You believe they talked to other people too? But you can't believe in fake masters as real. You can imagine them as real! You and a whole lot of others. You can imagine the reams of words by Rebazar Tarzs were spoken by Rebazar Tarzs. Others can imagine too. Especially after you show them pictures of Rebazar Tarzs and a boat load of fake words by Rebazar Tarzs, such as what may occur at Eckankar booths and introductory Eckankar events when people ask about Rebazar Tarzs and what he said to Paul Twitchell.
You can even imagine the stories Eckankar posts on its official website about Eckankar masters are true as well. However, that doesn't prove they are about real Rebazar Tarzs vs. fake Rebazar Tarzs. Not without proof, as you would say. They are only words.
Take it from an Eckist, Kinpa. There is no need to believe in a fake Rebazar Tarzs. One can be a member of Eckankar and not believe as literally true all of the fictions, or fake master dialogues that consist of so many plagiarized words that Paul Twitchell thought were important and worth showing (according to Doug). Pretty dramatic way of showing them aye? Yeah. I agree. I also agree a lot of the copied words were interesting and a good read. That said, I still don't have to believe in any fake masters as if they are real. I can imagine them as real if I want, but not when I would rather have the truth.

100% Etznab's opinion, and opinions are exactly like anal orifices, everyone has one and most stink.
Nice rant I guess, but he still hasn't proven anyone to be "fake." Do that first of all, only don't use any incidence of plagiarism, because that only proves the words plagiarized, nothing more. Whether a person who is reported to have said them for the sake of a book actually did or not is irrelevant, and doesn't prove them to be a fiction. You are confusing a number of thins as being the same thing. How do you not realize that?
In the end you only BELIEVE the reports of that name are a fiction, that the individual cannot possibly exist i n reality due to the plagiarizing. So why don't you ever say THAT? Instead you assume more meaning than you can actually prove. It still isn't rocket science. GTherefore, I am STILL awaiting you to show any actual evidence to support your claim, but none is forthcoming. Perhaps because you can't actually prove that one thing at all.
Should I just take that and believe it true the way that you base numerous claims you can't prove on an instance of plagiarism?? Wouldn't I only be doing the same thing that you do often?
You can rant all you'd like, but until you show actual evidence that isn't an incidence of plagiarized words, you've not proven much of anything and your claim must be considered nothing more than belief.

There you go speaking for me again. And telling how many people this? Maybe you're in the habit of doing things to other people and not remembering you did them. If so, that is a definite condition.

You are the one submitting 100 % opinion and comparing it to a poop machine. What is it with you and poop anyway. You remote view people having poop accidents and then broadcast your delusions publicly? Or need I remind you about that too? Looks to me like you are the unstable one. You don't remember what you did? Did you also remote view my membership card and the expiration date on it?

I think you're a sicko. You and Fife both. Don't remember what you said, or did? Then not taking responsibility for it?

BTW. The words about Rebazar Tarzs being fake are not all about plagiarism and I think you should remember that too. Have you conveniently forgotten once again in order to dismiss the topic? Trying to label it as plagiarism only?

Henosis Sage

2022-04-18 07:41:15 UTC

Why doesn't the current leader of Eckankar take dictation from a Rebazar Tarzs? My guess is that he knows better. Paul Twitchell died a long time ago and long before so many people learned about his extensive copying and pseudo history. His successor (Darwin Gross), who was later named by Paul Twitchell's widow (the same who also married him for a time), was not so forthcoming about his predecessor's plagiarisms, etc. (even though Paul's widow would later, on at least two occasions, reportedly tell others that Paul made so many things up. So, IMHO, the current living master CANNOT get away with doing what Paul Twitchell did. Like plagiarize so many books and claim that Rebazar was the author. Look on the official Eckankar website and where the leader says Paul got his writings from. Why doesn't it say that Paul got his copied, paraphrased, plagiarized compiled words from Rebazar Tarzs?
How about because it is not really true that Rebazar Tarzs was a plagiarist? Paul Twitchell was the plagiarist, former pulp-fiction writer and "rascal" who didn't always tell the truth.

Oh. Now it's Fife.
Usually you jump on every are post and respond quickly. Especially posts by me. So where were you when I wrote about Kinpa, Fife and Atzumi? Funny thing that. Another reason I doubt your sincerity, because you can't criticize Kinpa; one of the most vile posters in a.r.e. history. Is this because you are Kinpa and can't criticize (let alone write to) yourself on a.r.e.?
But you can criticize me alright. And practically every post that I write going on years now. And you do it similarly as Kinpa. Like an immature adult with a bone to pick.
You already know what I believe, Fife. I believe in the plain and simple truth(s) about Eckankar, Eckankar masters and history.
Eckankar, the truth, is not some fantasy novel with a cult of people raising holy hell with everybody who doesn't believe and live in their imaginary la la land. Eckankar, the truth, is not a bunch of Kinpa's and Fife's disrespecting and twisting around the truth.
Paul Twitchell and Eckankar promote copied words under the guise of Eckankar masters, promote the pseudo history and religion concocted years ago, but with a few revisions. You know this, and I think your alter ego Kinpa knows it well too. In my opinion it's you and Kinpa who want to push the old eckankar spells of illusion and control the narrative.
Rebazar Tarzs and the Eck masters are like the saints in other religions you say? Every religion borrows from those before it and evolves the teachings (good stuff) says Kinpa? I don't like to always share the truth, because (like Paul Twitchell) I feel it's sometimes more fun to find out on your own, says Harold?
Oh really? How about stop cheapening the image of real masters and real history because some people are too gullible, or ignorant to know the truth from fantasy? Or want to get powerful and rich from converting as many as possible to believe in fictions?

For Fife the truth is piss.
For Kinpa the truth is poop.
This is what I hear you guys saying.

This is history that you can confirm.
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/0F48S7AlusM/m/ybBpiTCoAAAJ
The quotes by Paul Twitchell can be clarified. 1963 and 1969 have Paul Twitchell as source. For The Far Country book, published around 1970 - the same year that Eckankar became a religion - Paul has the words coming from Rebazar Tarzs.
Many years before any of what Paul Twitchell wrote, history confirms what Julian Johnson wrote.
The link shows examples of What Paul Twitchell wrote, and it shows what Paul claimed that Rebazar Tarzs said. Rebazar Tarzs came into the picture later. And You say Rebazar Tarzs didn't plagiarize, but that Paul Twitchell did. O.K. No argument there. You also say that plagiarism doesn't prove that Rebazar was a fake master?
Kinpa. How can those words belong to Rebazar Tarzs? Where is the history that he spoke them to Paul Twitchell? IOW, Where is the history of a Rebazar Tarzs.
My truth you say? It looks like you are simply hard-headed when it comes to acknowledging certain truth based on who illustrated them.
Doug Marman. Will you accept his truth?
"[...] The only area that I don't think looks good is Paul's lack of crediting his sources, to the point of making it look like he, or Rebazar Tarzs, was the original source. This looks especially bad these days, since copyright law has become much more controlled and publicized. However, it doesn't appear to have been much of a problem while Paul was alive. [... .]"
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/Er0VHRTk_sc/m/NQYn-wQ00FIJ
"Paul fictionalized his accounts, because he was an experienced writer and knew that stories were far more effective than lectures. Paul set himself up as simply a seeker, in The Tiger's Fang, because he knew from experience that people learn very differently from those who come across as authorities, than from someone who they can identify with, who is describing a personal experience. He created the dialog with Rebazar Tarzs, in The Far Country, because this was a much more effective and interesting way of communicating, than simply pontificating."
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.religion.eckankar/cHzE0Cdcfy4/M6ZJAPyvTNsJ
The Tiger's Fang was one of the first published Eckankar books. The apologist says: "He created the dialog with Rebazar Tarzs, in The Far Country, because this was a much more effective and interesting way of communicating, than simply pontificating."
I would add: "Created with copied, paraphrased and plagiarized words."
Created? Fictionalized? Faked? What don't you understand, Kinpa?
Another Doug Marman truth.
"Strange as it may seem today, back when Paul began writing his books, such as The Far Country, the creation of myth was still seen as a necessary requirement of most spiritual paths."
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/GBwgDKAztbI/m/zAJCPXv-SP8J
Rebazar Tarzs was created? Fiction? Myth?
HOW ABOUT FAKE? HOW ABOUT NOT REAL?
Your truth? Doug's truth? My truth? HOW ABOUT THE TRUTH? EVER HEAR OF THAT?
It is true that Doug Marman wrote the quotes I presented. They can be verified as THE TRUTH. IOW, written by Doug.
Doug Marman quotes from May, 1999.
"Paul used a technique known to writers as fictionalization. This is when an author would like to present a bunch of important information but doesn't want to do it in a boring, preaching way, but would rather present the material in a way that not only says something, but also shows something."
"As for the changing of the names, well Paul first offered these manuscripts to Kirpal for him to publish, to help spread the teaching under Kirpal's name. Kirpal rejected them. Paul chose to distance himself from Kirpal, rather than ride on the coattails of Sant Mat. This left Paul free to teach a number of things that are not taught within Sant Mat, and yet teach the ancient truth at the same time."
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/4ysJK655x2I/m/BkzOX1azAwAJ
How did your idol answer the question about fake masters? I already showed you what Doug wrote. Here are some more quotes.
"3. Did Paul Twitchell copy other writers works?"
How did Doug answer?
"Yes. Well, I guess I can give yes or no answers sometimes."
"4. Did Paul Twitchell use other writers words and put his Eck masters names on them as if the Eck Master were saying them?"
How did Doug answer?
He answered: "Yes."
Based on: - A Few Responses - Doug Marman - February 8th, 2004
http://www.thetruth-seeker.com/dispBB.aspx?st=268&page=168#m264
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/RZi5pwN4JgU/m/8vCxP_6cAQAJ
It's called faking, Kinpa. Paul Twitchell not only faked Eck Masters, he faked a lot of history. A lot of true history.
Now you know about faking, right? All those things you told me that were fake? All the poop accidents. That I was not a member of Eckankar. Rember? And when you faked the expiration date of my membership card? They are just four letters. Just like the names Kinpa and Fife. Let's look at those letters in large caps.
FAKE, FAKE, FAKE, FAKE, FAKE, FAKE, FAKE, FAKE, FAKE!

Paul Twitchell faked and fictionalized. End of story.
Now you will tell me that faking Eck Masters doesn't prove they don't exist? You're so attached to them that you see them talking to you? You believe they talked to other people too? But you can't believe in fake masters as real. You can imagine them as real! You and a whole lot of others. You can imagine the reams of words by Rebazar Tarzs were spoken by Rebazar Tarzs. Others can imagine too. Especially after you show them pictures of Rebazar Tarzs and a boat load of fake words by Rebazar Tarzs, such as what may occur at Eckankar booths and introductory Eckankar events when people ask about Rebazar Tarzs and what he said to Paul Twitchell.
You can even imagine the stories Eckankar posts on its official website about Eckankar masters are true as well. However, that doesn't prove they are about real Rebazar Tarzs vs. fake Rebazar Tarzs. Not without proof, as you would say. They are only words.
Take it from an Eckist, Kinpa. There is no need to believe in a fake Rebazar Tarzs. One can be a member of Eckankar and not believe as literally true all of the fictions, or fake master dialogues that consist of so many plagiarized words that Paul Twitchell thought were important and worth showing (according to Doug). Pretty dramatic way of showing them aye? Yeah. I agree. I also agree a lot of the copied words were interesting and a good read. That said, I still don't have to believe in any fake masters as if they are real. I can imagine them as real if I want, but not when I would rather have the truth.

100% Etznab's opinion, and opinions are exactly like anal orifices, everyone has one and most stink.
Nice rant I guess, but he still hasn't proven anyone to be "fake." Do that first of all, only don't use any incidence of plagiarism, because that only proves the words plagiarized, nothing more. Whether a person who is reported to have said them for the sake of a book actually did or not is irrelevant, and doesn't prove them to be a fiction. You are confusing a number of thins as being the same thing. How do you not realize that?
In the end you only BELIEVE the reports of that name are a fiction, that the individual cannot possibly exist i n reality due to the plagiarizing. So why don't you ever say THAT? Instead you assume more meaning than you can actually prove. It still isn't rocket science. GTherefore, I am STILL awaiting you to show any actual evidence to support your claim, but none is forthcoming. Perhaps because you can't actually prove that one thing at all.
Should I just take that and believe it true the way that you base numerous claims you can't prove on an instance of plagiarism?? Wouldn't I only be doing the same thing that you do often?
You can rant all you'd like, but until you show actual evidence that isn't an incidence of plagiarized words, you've not proven much of anything and your claim must be considered nothing more than belief.

He says (didn't take very long) ---" 100% Etznab's opinion, and opinions are exactly like anal orifices, everyone has one and most stink. "

well viewers, kinpoop matt sharpe loves the smell of dirty anal orifices. does anyone here wanna see his personal photo collection he kept of feces and filthy toilets online?

He is quite a " character" this one. Long time abusive offensive internet troll on multiple forums .... wanna see his performances? No, you shouldn't it's disgusting frankly. He's vicious and cruel .. like all extreme pathological narcissists are like.

in the meantime learn something if you hasn't already seen it.

135 pages of hard undeniable evidence

[TEHA 2014] DWTM Dialogues with the Master PLAGIARISM by Paul Twitchell
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B-M0yAR0UPhPSXlQVUwxbTFyenc/view

hundreds of thousands maybe more may have tried Eckankar ... 99.99 % left for better things and better lives.

It's good to put some distance from the mentally unstable and the pathological too.

Etznab

2022-04-17 14:44:59 UTC

Why doesn't the current leader of Eckankar take dictation from a Rebazar Tarzs? My guess is that he knows better. Paul Twitchell died a long time ago and long before so many people learned about his extensive copying and pseudo history. His successor (Darwin Gross), who was later named by Paul Twitchell's widow (the same who also married him for a time), was not so forthcoming about his predecessor's plagiarisms, etc. (even though Paul's widow would later, on at least two occasions, reportedly tell others that Paul made so many things up. So, IMHO, the current living master CANNOT get away with doing what Paul Twitchell did. Like plagiarize so many books and claim that Rebazar was the author. Look on the official Eckankar website and where the leader says Paul got his writings from. Why doesn't it say that Paul got his copied, paraphrased, plagiarized compiled words from Rebazar Tarzs?
How about because it is not really true that Rebazar Tarzs was a plagiarist? Paul Twitchell was the plagiarist, former pulp-fiction writer and "rascal" who didn't always tell the truth.

Oh. Now it's Fife.
Usually you jump on every are post and respond quickly. Especially posts by me. So where were you when I wrote about Kinpa, Fife and Atzumi? Funny thing that. Another reason I doubt your sincerity, because you can't criticize Kinpa; one of the most vile posters in a.r.e. history. Is this because you are Kinpa and can't criticize (let alone write to) yourself on a.r.e.?
But you can criticize me alright. And practically every post that I write going on years now. And you do it similarly as Kinpa. Like an immature adult with a bone to pick.
You already know what I believe, Fife. I believe in the plain and simple truth(s) about Eckankar, Eckankar masters and history.
Eckankar, the truth, is not some fantasy novel with a cult of people raising holy hell with everybody who doesn't believe and live in their imaginary la la land. Eckankar, the truth, is not a bunch of Kinpa's and Fife's disrespecting and twisting around the truth.
Paul Twitchell and Eckankar promote copied words under the guise of Eckankar masters, promote the pseudo history and religion concocted years ago, but with a few revisions. You know this, and I think your alter ego Kinpa knows it well too. In my opinion it's you and Kinpa who want to push the old eckankar spells of illusion and control the narrative.
Rebazar Tarzs and the Eck masters are like the saints in other religions you say? Every religion borrows from those before it and evolves the teachings (good stuff) says Kinpa? I don't like to always share the truth, because (like Paul Twitchell) I feel it's sometimes more fun to find out on your own, says Harold?
Oh really? How about stop cheapening the image of real masters and real history because some people are too gullible, or ignorant to know the truth from fantasy? Or want to get powerful and rich from converting as many as possible to believe in fictions?

For Fife the truth is piss.
For Kinpa the truth is poop.
This is what I hear you guys saying.

This is history that you can confirm.
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/0F48S7AlusM/m/ybBpiTCoAAAJ
The quotes by Paul Twitchell can be clarified. 1963 and 1969 have Paul Twitchell as source. For The Far Country book, published around 1970 - the same year that Eckankar became a religion - Paul has the words coming from Rebazar Tarzs.
Many years before any of what Paul Twitchell wrote, history confirms what Julian Johnson wrote.
The link shows examples of What Paul Twitchell wrote, and it shows what Paul claimed that Rebazar Tarzs said. Rebazar Tarzs came into the picture later. And You say Rebazar Tarzs didn't plagiarize, but that Paul Twitchell did. O.K. No argument there. You also say that plagiarism doesn't prove that Rebazar was a fake master?
Kinpa. How can those words belong to Rebazar Tarzs? Where is the history that he spoke them to Paul Twitchell? IOW, Where is the history of a Rebazar Tarzs.
My truth you say? It looks like you are simply hard-headed when it comes to acknowledging certain truth based on who illustrated them.
Doug Marman. Will you accept his truth?
"[...] The only area that I don't think looks good is Paul's lack of crediting his sources, to the point of making it look like he, or Rebazar Tarzs, was the original source. This looks especially bad these days, since copyright law has become much more controlled and publicized. However, it doesn't appear to have been much of a problem while Paul was alive. [... .]"
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/Er0VHRTk_sc/m/NQYn-wQ00FIJ
"Paul fictionalized his accounts, because he was an experienced writer and knew that stories were far more effective than lectures. Paul set himself up as simply a seeker, in The Tiger's Fang, because he knew from experience that people learn very differently from those who come across as authorities, than from someone who they can identify with, who is describing a personal experience. He created the dialog with Rebazar Tarzs, in The Far Country, because this was a much more effective and interesting way of communicating, than simply pontificating."
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.religion.eckankar/cHzE0Cdcfy4/M6ZJAPyvTNsJ
The Tiger's Fang was one of the first published Eckankar books. The apologist says: "He created the dialog with Rebazar Tarzs, in The Far Country, because this was a much more effective and interesting way of communicating, than simply pontificating."
I would add: "Created with copied, paraphrased and plagiarized words."
Created? Fictionalized? Faked? What don't you understand, Kinpa?
Another Doug Marman truth.
"Strange as it may seem today, back when Paul began writing his books, such as The Far Country, the creation of myth was still seen as a necessary requirement of most spiritual paths."
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/GBwgDKAztbI/m/zAJCPXv-SP8J
Rebazar Tarzs was created? Fiction? Myth?
HOW ABOUT FAKE? HOW ABOUT NOT REAL?
Your truth? Doug's truth? My truth? HOW ABOUT THE TRUTH? EVER HEAR OF THAT?
It is true that Doug Marman wrote the quotes I presented. They can be verified as THE TRUTH. IOW, written by Doug.
Doug Marman quotes from May, 1999.
"Paul used a technique known to writers as fictionalization. This is when an author would like to present a bunch of important information but doesn't want to do it in a boring, preaching way, but would rather present the material in a way that not only says something, but also shows something."
"As for the changing of the names, well Paul first offered these manuscripts to Kirpal for him to publish, to help spread the teaching under Kirpal's name. Kirpal rejected them. Paul chose to distance himself from Kirpal, rather than ride on the coattails of Sant Mat. This left Paul free to teach a number of things that are not taught within Sant Mat, and yet teach the ancient truth at the same time."
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/4ysJK655x2I/m/BkzOX1azAwAJ
How did your idol answer the question about fake masters? I already showed you what Doug wrote. Here are some more quotes.
"3. Did Paul Twitchell copy other writers works?"
How did Doug answer?
"Yes. Well, I guess I can give yes or no answers sometimes."
"4. Did Paul Twitchell use other writers words and put his Eck masters names on them as if the Eck Master were saying them?"
How did Doug answer?
He answered: "Yes."
Based on: - A Few Responses - Doug Marman - February 8th, 2004
http://www.thetruth-seeker.com/dispBB.aspx?st=268&page=168#m264
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/RZi5pwN4JgU/m/8vCxP_6cAQAJ
It's called faking, Kinpa. Paul Twitchell not only faked Eck Masters, he faked a lot of history. A lot of true history.
Now you know about faking, right? All those things you told me that were fake? All the poop accidents. That I was not a member of Eckankar. Rember? And when you faked the expiration date of my membership card? They are just four letters. Just like the names Kinpa and Fife. Let's look at those letters in large caps.
FAKE, FAKE, FAKE, FAKE, FAKE, FAKE, FAKE, FAKE, FAKE!

Paul Twitchell wrote that Rebazar Tarzs spoke to he and Gail. Maybe this was from around the time when Paul was familiar with master Kirpal Singh, or after Gail was initiated. I'm not sure. One would have to locate the true history.

So what Rebazar Tarzs was that who spoke to Gail? Was it even a real Rebazar Tarzs? For all I know it was Kirpal Sing, whose name Twitchell later changed to Rebazar Tarzs. It wouldn't be the first time.

How does one go about knowing the plain simple truth vs. some myth? some fiction, or man-made creation like pseudo history? Eckankar is not alone, IMHO, when it comes to made up stories. Fantastic made up stories at that. This is Easter day. Right? And millions of people belong to religions with embellished stories about what actually happened in history. Millions of people don't believe all the fabulous stories about their religions, or even the stories told by other members. And the fact is that many millions of people have, and do gain benefit from belonging to a religion as a member, or even a visitor. The myths and fictions don't deter them. I am a member of Eckankar going on decades already. I don't believe everything people write, or say about it. At the same time I choose to continue my membership because I've had more happy experiences in Eckankar than in any other religion. I've met more nicer people in Eckankar than in any other religion I belonged to. The talks, the events and the celebrations I participated in were the best overall.

Now I wrote about these kinds of things over the years here at a.r.e. and yet some people still write like I am not a member of Eckankar and they want to criticize how I practice Eckankar and do my spiritual exercises. So not everything about my Eckankar experience is the best. Certainly not when people misinterpret what I wrote, or meant. Not when people make up stories about poop accidents involving me, my family and my friends and later try to qualify that as entertainment. I'm talking about members of Eckankar with whom I don't agree, or that I know for a fact and can prove as a fact levelled malicious falsehoods against me, my family and my friends and did so publicly in this group not once, but several times to this day without an apology.

So people can gain benefit from religions whose dogma, writings and beliefs don't all contain actual truth. BTW. Happy Easter everybody! And sometimes religions borrow from earlier ones, fictions, untruths and all. Sometimes schisms happen where, in an effort to improve a religion, people drop some of the more unsavory elements; like gross efforts at embellishing the truth that disgusts many people who actually love the truth more.

O.K. So what's the problem with characterizing myth as myth, fiction as fiction, belief as belief, imagination as imagination and fact as fact (or actually true and provably true as actually true and provably true) as opposed to lumping them all together as the same thing? What's the problem with doing this as member of a religion?

I think part of the problem comes from people who want to control what others believe as fact and fiction. Ever hear of propaganda? Look up the history of that word. Look up what historically religions have done to other people who they couldn't control. Some who they couldn't control who were actually telling the truth! Look up the extent to which religions and members of religions have gone to control the beliefs of others. Even forcing people to believe what the other person knows and can prove as not true. Hundreds of years later some religions are still apologizing for what they have unjustly done to innocent people, innocent people and cultures around the world.

Ever hear of fundamental fanatics who, after the truth is put in front of their face, will chop off the heads of other people who don't agree with them? Or how about one nation, under God, with liberty and justice for all that is involved in the business of many nations still and people dying as the result of not "joining the club", or from having been part of the club and later discarded when they were of no further use.

"The name 'al-Qaeda' was established a long time ago by mere chance. The late Abu Ebeida El-Banashiri established the training camps for our mujahedeen against Russia's terrorism. We used to call the training camp al-Qaeda. The name stayed.[136]"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Qaeda#Name

Some people have also called it "the club". In some respects the American government, politicians, political parties and those who support them are also like "clubs". Organized religions and member organizations can also be like clubs. Look up Bright Future in the a.r.e. archives.

If I'm not mistaken, both Kinpa and Fife didn't join Eckankar because they wanted to be a part of a club. Nor do they need to be active and join meetings and functions." Our way, or the highway" is not everybody's cup of tea, but people can still belong to a religion in spite of the various "clicks" and" clubs". And gain a lot of benefit! Some who post here are no longer members of Eckankar.

Etznab

2022-04-17 14:51:30 UTC

Why doesn't the current leader of Eckankar take dictation from a Rebazar Tarzs? My guess is that he knows better. Paul Twitchell died a long time ago and long before so many people learned about his extensive copying and pseudo history. His successor (Darwin Gross), who was later named by Paul Twitchell's widow (the same who also married him for a time), was not so forthcoming about his predecessor's plagiarisms, etc. (even though Paul's widow would later, on at least two occasions, reportedly tell others that Paul made so many things up. So, IMHO, the current living master CANNOT get away with doing what Paul Twitchell did. Like plagiarize so many books and claim that Rebazar was the author. Look on the official Eckankar website and where the leader says Paul got his writings from. Why doesn't it say that Paul got his copied, paraphrased, plagiarized compiled words from Rebazar Tarzs?
How about because it is not really true that Rebazar Tarzs was a plagiarist? Paul Twitchell was the plagiarist, former pulp-fiction writer and "rascal" who didn't always tell the truth.

Oh. Now it's Fife.
Usually you jump on every are post and respond quickly. Especially posts by me. So where were you when I wrote about Kinpa, Fife and Atzumi? Funny thing that. Another reason I doubt your sincerity, because you can't criticize Kinpa; one of the most vile posters in a.r.e. history. Is this because you are Kinpa and can't criticize (let alone write to) yourself on a.r.e.?
But you can criticize me alright. And practically every post that I write going on years now. And you do it similarly as Kinpa. Like an immature adult with a bone to pick.
You already know what I believe, Fife. I believe in the plain and simple truth(s) about Eckankar, Eckankar masters and history.
Eckankar, the truth, is not some fantasy novel with a cult of people raising holy hell with everybody who doesn't believe and live in their imaginary la la land. Eckankar, the truth, is not a bunch of Kinpa's and Fife's disrespecting and twisting around the truth.
Paul Twitchell and Eckankar promote copied words under the guise of Eckankar masters, promote the pseudo history and religion concocted years ago, but with a few revisions. You know this, and I think your alter ego Kinpa knows it well too. In my opinion it's you and Kinpa who want to push the old eckankar spells of illusion and control the narrative.
Rebazar Tarzs and the Eck masters are like the saints in other religions you say? Every religion borrows from those before it and evolves the teachings (good stuff) says Kinpa? I don't like to always share the truth, because (like Paul Twitchell) I feel it's sometimes more fun to find out on your own, says Harold?
Oh really? How about stop cheapening the image of real masters and real history because some people are too gullible, or ignorant to know the truth from fantasy? Or want to get powerful and rich from converting as many as possible to believe in fictions?

For Fife the truth is piss.
For Kinpa the truth is poop.
This is what I hear you guys saying.

This is history that you can confirm.
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/0F48S7AlusM/m/ybBpiTCoAAAJ
The quotes by Paul Twitchell can be clarified. 1963 and 1969 have Paul Twitchell as source. For The Far Country book, published around 1970 - the same year that Eckankar became a religion - Paul has the words coming from Rebazar Tarzs.
Many years before any of what Paul Twitchell wrote, history confirms what Julian Johnson wrote.
The link shows examples of What Paul Twitchell wrote, and it shows what Paul claimed that Rebazar Tarzs said. Rebazar Tarzs came into the picture later. And You say Rebazar Tarzs didn't plagiarize, but that Paul Twitchell did. O.K. No argument there. You also say that plagiarism doesn't prove that Rebazar was a fake master?
Kinpa. How can those words belong to Rebazar Tarzs? Where is the history that he spoke them to Paul Twitchell? IOW, Where is the history of a Rebazar Tarzs.
My truth you say? It looks like you are simply hard-headed when it comes to acknowledging certain truth based on who illustrated them.
Doug Marman. Will you accept his truth?
"[...] The only area that I don't think looks good is Paul's lack of crediting his sources, to the point of making it look like he, or Rebazar Tarzs, was the original source. This looks especially bad these days, since copyright law has become much more controlled and publicized. However, it doesn't appear to have been much of a problem while Paul was alive. [... .]"
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/Er0VHRTk_sc/m/NQYn-wQ00FIJ
"Paul fictionalized his accounts, because he was an experienced writer and knew that stories were far more effective than lectures. Paul set himself up as simply a seeker, in The Tiger's Fang, because he knew from experience that people learn very differently from those who come across as authorities, than from someone who they can identify with, who is describing a personal experience. He created the dialog with Rebazar Tarzs, in The Far Country, because this was a much more effective and interesting way of communicating, than simply pontificating."
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.religion.eckankar/cHzE0Cdcfy4/M6ZJAPyvTNsJ
The Tiger's Fang was one of the first published Eckankar books. The apologist says: "He created the dialog with Rebazar Tarzs, in The Far Country, because this was a much more effective and interesting way of communicating, than simply pontificating."
I would add: "Created with copied, paraphrased and plagiarized words."
Created? Fictionalized? Faked? What don't you understand, Kinpa?
Another Doug Marman truth.
"Strange as it may seem today, back when Paul began writing his books, such as The Far Country, the creation of myth was still seen as a necessary requirement of most spiritual paths."
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/GBwgDKAztbI/m/zAJCPXv-SP8J
Rebazar Tarzs was created? Fiction? Myth?
HOW ABOUT FAKE? HOW ABOUT NOT REAL?
Your truth? Doug's truth? My truth? HOW ABOUT THE TRUTH? EVER HEAR OF THAT?
It is true that Doug Marman wrote the quotes I presented. They can be verified as THE TRUTH. IOW, written by Doug.
Doug Marman quotes from May, 1999.
"Paul used a technique known to writers as fictionalization. This is when an author would like to present a bunch of important information but doesn't want to do it in a boring, preaching way, but would rather present the material in a way that not only says something, but also shows something."
"As for the changing of the names, well Paul first offered these manuscripts to Kirpal for him to publish, to help spread the teaching under Kirpal's name. Kirpal rejected them. Paul chose to distance himself from Kirpal, rather than ride on the coattails of Sant Mat. This left Paul free to teach a number of things that are not taught within Sant Mat, and yet teach the ancient truth at the same time."
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/4ysJK655x2I/m/BkzOX1azAwAJ
How did your idol answer the question about fake masters? I already showed you what Doug wrote. Here are some more quotes.
"3. Did Paul Twitchell copy other writers works?"
How did Doug answer?
"Yes. Well, I guess I can give yes or no answers sometimes."
"4. Did Paul Twitchell use other writers words and put his Eck masters names on them as if the Eck Master were saying them?"
How did Doug answer?
He answered: "Yes."
Based on: - A Few Responses - Doug Marman - February 8th, 2004
http://www.thetruth-seeker.com/dispBB.aspx?st=268&page=168#m264
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/RZi5pwN4JgU/m/8vCxP_6cAQAJ
It's called faking, Kinpa. Paul Twitchell not only faked Eck Masters, he faked a lot of history. A lot of true history.
Now you know about faking, right? All those things you told me that were fake? All the poop accidents. That I was not a member of Eckankar. Rember? And when you faked the expiration date of my membership card? They are just four letters. Just like the names Kinpa and Fife. Let's look at those letters in large caps.
FAKE, FAKE, FAKE, FAKE, FAKE, FAKE, FAKE, FAKE, FAKE!

I faked that your name here was four letters, Kinpa. How can you prove that I faked it? IOW, Is there a way to prove it was faked?

Compare the faked writing with the actual truth? Prove that I somehow imagined it had four letters? What if I told you that Rebazar Tarzs told me it only had four? Would you be able to prove that Rebazar Tarzs was fake?

Kinpa

2022-04-17 15:00:28 UTC

Why doesn't the current leader of Eckankar take dictation from a Rebazar Tarzs? My guess is that he knows better. Paul Twitchell died a long time ago and long before so many people learned about his extensive copying and pseudo history. His successor (Darwin Gross), who was later named by Paul Twitchell's widow (the same who also married him for a time), was not so forthcoming about his predecessor's plagiarisms, etc. (even though Paul's widow would later, on at least two occasions, reportedly tell others that Paul made so many things up. So, IMHO, the current living master CANNOT get away with doing what Paul Twitchell did. Like plagiarize so many books and claim that Rebazar was the author. Look on the official Eckankar website and where the leader says Paul got his writings from. Why doesn't it say that Paul got his copied, paraphrased, plagiarized compiled words from Rebazar Tarzs?
How about because it is not really true that Rebazar Tarzs was a plagiarist? Paul Twitchell was the plagiarist, former pulp-fiction writer and "rascal" who didn't always tell the truth.

Oh. Now it's Fife.
Usually you jump on every are post and respond quickly. Especially posts by me. So where were you when I wrote about Kinpa, Fife and Atzumi? Funny thing that. Another reason I doubt your sincerity, because you can't criticize Kinpa; one of the most vile posters in a.r.e. history. Is this because you are Kinpa and can't criticize (let alone write to) yourself on a.r.e.?
But you can criticize me alright. And practically every post that I write going on years now. And you do it similarly as Kinpa. Like an immature adult with a bone to pick.
You already know what I believe, Fife. I believe in the plain and simple truth(s) about Eckankar, Eckankar masters and history.
Eckankar, the truth, is not some fantasy novel with a cult of people raising holy hell with everybody who doesn't believe and live in their imaginary la la land. Eckankar, the truth, is not a bunch of Kinpa's and Fife's disrespecting and twisting around the truth.
Paul Twitchell and Eckankar promote copied words under the guise of Eckankar masters, promote the pseudo history and religion concocted years ago, but with a few revisions. You know this, and I think your alter ego Kinpa knows it well too. In my opinion it's you and Kinpa who want to push the old eckankar spells of illusion and control the narrative.
Rebazar Tarzs and the Eck masters are like the saints in other religions you say? Every religion borrows from those before it and evolves the teachings (good stuff) says Kinpa? I don't like to always share the truth, because (like Paul Twitchell) I feel it's sometimes more fun to find out on your own, says Harold?
Oh really? How about stop cheapening the image of real masters and real history because some people are too gullible, or ignorant to know the truth from fantasy? Or want to get powerful and rich from converting as many as possible to believe in fictions?

For Fife the truth is piss.
For Kinpa the truth is poop.
This is what I hear you guys saying.

This is history that you can confirm.
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/0F48S7AlusM/m/ybBpiTCoAAAJ
The quotes by Paul Twitchell can be clarified. 1963 and 1969 have Paul Twitchell as source. For The Far Country book, published around 1970 - the same year that Eckankar became a religion - Paul has the words coming from Rebazar Tarzs.
Many years before any of what Paul Twitchell wrote, history confirms what Julian Johnson wrote.
The link shows examples of What Paul Twitchell wrote, and it shows what Paul claimed that Rebazar Tarzs said. Rebazar Tarzs came into the picture later. And You say Rebazar Tarzs didn't plagiarize, but that Paul Twitchell did. O.K. No argument there. You also say that plagiarism doesn't prove that Rebazar was a fake master?
Kinpa. How can those words belong to Rebazar Tarzs? Where is the history that he spoke them to Paul Twitchell? IOW, Where is the history of a Rebazar Tarzs.
My truth you say? It looks like you are simply hard-headed when it comes to acknowledging certain truth based on who illustrated them.
Doug Marman. Will you accept his truth?
"[...] The only area that I don't think looks good is Paul's lack of crediting his sources, to the point of making it look like he, or Rebazar Tarzs, was the original source. This looks especially bad these days, since copyright law has become much more controlled and publicized. However, it doesn't appear to have been much of a problem while Paul was alive. [... .]"
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/Er0VHRTk_sc/m/NQYn-wQ00FIJ
"Paul fictionalized his accounts, because he was an experienced writer and knew that stories were far more effective than lectures. Paul set himself up as simply a seeker, in The Tiger's Fang, because he knew from experience that people learn very differently from those who come across as authorities, than from someone who they can identify with, who is describing a personal experience. He created the dialog with Rebazar Tarzs, in The Far Country, because this was a much more effective and interesting way of communicating, than simply pontificating."
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.religion.eckankar/cHzE0Cdcfy4/M6ZJAPyvTNsJ
The Tiger's Fang was one of the first published Eckankar books. The apologist says: "He created the dialog with Rebazar Tarzs, in The Far Country, because this was a much more effective and interesting way of communicating, than simply pontificating."
I would add: "Created with copied, paraphrased and plagiarized words."
Created? Fictionalized? Faked? What don't you understand, Kinpa?
Another Doug Marman truth.
"Strange as it may seem today, back when Paul began writing his books, such as The Far Country, the creation of myth was still seen as a necessary requirement of most spiritual paths."
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/GBwgDKAztbI/m/zAJCPXv-SP8J
Rebazar Tarzs was created? Fiction? Myth?
HOW ABOUT FAKE? HOW ABOUT NOT REAL?
Your truth? Doug's truth? My truth? HOW ABOUT THE TRUTH? EVER HEAR OF THAT?
It is true that Doug Marman wrote the quotes I presented. They can be verified as THE TRUTH. IOW, written by Doug.
Doug Marman quotes from May, 1999.
"Paul used a technique known to writers as fictionalization. This is when an author would like to present a bunch of important information but doesn't want to do it in a boring, preaching way, but would rather present the material in a way that not only says something, but also shows something."
"As for the changing of the names, well Paul first offered these manuscripts to Kirpal for him to publish, to help spread the teaching under Kirpal's name. Kirpal rejected them. Paul chose to distance himself from Kirpal, rather than ride on the coattails of Sant Mat. This left Paul free to teach a number of things that are not taught within Sant Mat, and yet teach the ancient truth at the same time."
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/4ysJK655x2I/m/BkzOX1azAwAJ
How did your idol answer the question about fake masters? I already showed you what Doug wrote. Here are some more quotes.
"3. Did Paul Twitchell copy other writers works?"
How did Doug answer?
"Yes. Well, I guess I can give yes or no answers sometimes."
"4. Did Paul Twitchell use other writers words and put his Eck masters names on them as if the Eck Master were saying them?"
How did Doug answer?
He answered: "Yes."
Based on: - A Few Responses - Doug Marman - February 8th, 2004
http://www.thetruth-seeker.com/dispBB.aspx?st=268&page=168#m264
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/RZi5pwN4JgU/m/8vCxP_6cAQAJ
It's called faking, Kinpa. Paul Twitchell not only faked Eck Masters, he faked a lot of history. A lot of true history.
Now you know about faking, right? All those things you told me that were fake? All the poop accidents. That I was not a member of Eckankar. Rember? And when you faked the expiration date of my membership card? They are just four letters. Just like the names Kinpa and Fife. Let's look at those letters in large caps.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Show me the post I made where " when you faked the expiration date of my membership card." I only presented a picture of MY membership card with the actual expiration date. I never posted your card at all. So by all means, go grab the link for that.

You honestly seem to be rather emotionally unstable and perhaps not mentally balanced. I'm no doctor so i can't offer diagnosis, but you seem unwell at the very least. Now, stop ranting and go grab that post where I offered a picture of an altered membership card with your name and an inaccurate date on it, because I'm certain that I didn't ever do that. I've only asked YOU to take a pic of your own card and post it here so I could see the expiration date, and that AFTER I presented mine. Not rocket science, so why are you having such a hard time remembering what actually happened???

Oh, and grab that evidence that Rebazar Tarzs does not exist while you're making the effort, we may as well kill two birds at the same time. If you're just going to rant and squeal ABOUT the things we disagree on, there is no point responding at all.

Once again, it is VERY simple, put up or shut up.

Etznab

2022-04-17 21:30:35 UTC

Why doesn't the current leader of Eckankar take dictation from a Rebazar Tarzs? My guess is that he knows better. Paul Twitchell died a long time ago and long before so many people learned about his extensive copying and pseudo history. His successor (Darwin Gross), who was later named by Paul Twitchell's widow (the same who also married him for a time), was not so forthcoming about his predecessor's plagiarisms, etc. (even though Paul's widow would later, on at least two occasions, reportedly tell others that Paul made so many things up. So, IMHO, the current living master CANNOT get away with doing what Paul Twitchell did. Like plagiarize so many books and claim that Rebazar was the author. Look on the official Eckankar website and where the leader says Paul got his writings from. Why doesn't it say that Paul got his copied, paraphrased, plagiarized compiled words from Rebazar Tarzs?
How about because it is not really true that Rebazar Tarzs was a plagiarist? Paul Twitchell was the plagiarist, former pulp-fiction writer and "rascal" who didn't always tell the truth.

Oh. Now it's Fife.
Usually you jump on every are post and respond quickly. Especially posts by me. So where were you when I wrote about Kinpa, Fife and Atzumi? Funny thing that. Another reason I doubt your sincerity, because you can't criticize Kinpa; one of the most vile posters in a.r.e. history. Is this because you are Kinpa and can't criticize (let alone write to) yourself on a.r.e.?
But you can criticize me alright. And practically every post that I write going on years now. And you do it similarly as Kinpa. Like an immature adult with a bone to pick.
You already know what I believe, Fife. I believe in the plain and simple truth(s) about Eckankar, Eckankar masters and history.
Eckankar, the truth, is not some fantasy novel with a cult of people raising holy hell with everybody who doesn't believe and live in their imaginary la la land. Eckankar, the truth, is not a bunch of Kinpa's and Fife's disrespecting and twisting around the truth.
Paul Twitchell and Eckankar promote copied words under the guise of Eckankar masters, promote the pseudo history and religion concocted years ago, but with a few revisions. You know this, and I think your alter ego Kinpa knows it well too. In my opinion it's you and Kinpa who want to push the old eckankar spells of illusion and control the narrative.
Rebazar Tarzs and the Eck masters are like the saints in other religions you say? Every religion borrows from those before it and evolves the teachings (good stuff) says Kinpa? I don't like to always share the truth, because (like Paul Twitchell) I feel it's sometimes more fun to find out on your own, says Harold?
Oh really? How about stop cheapening the image of real masters and real history because some people are too gullible, or ignorant to know the truth from fantasy? Or want to get powerful and rich from converting as many as possible to believe in fictions?

For Fife the truth is piss.
For Kinpa the truth is poop.
This is what I hear you guys saying.

This is history that you can confirm.
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/0F48S7AlusM/m/ybBpiTCoAAAJ
The quotes by Paul Twitchell can be clarified. 1963 and 1969 have Paul Twitchell as source. For The Far Country book, published around 1970 - the same year that Eckankar became a religion - Paul has the words coming from Rebazar Tarzs.
Many years before any of what Paul Twitchell wrote, history confirms what Julian Johnson wrote.
The link shows examples of What Paul Twitchell wrote, and it shows what Paul claimed that Rebazar Tarzs said. Rebazar Tarzs came into the picture later. And You say Rebazar Tarzs didn't plagiarize, but that Paul Twitchell did. O.K. No argument there. You also say that plagiarism doesn't prove that Rebazar was a fake master?
Kinpa. How can those words belong to Rebazar Tarzs? Where is the history that he spoke them to Paul Twitchell? IOW, Where is the history of a Rebazar Tarzs.
My truth you say? It looks like you are simply hard-headed when it comes to acknowledging certain truth based on who illustrated them.
Doug Marman. Will you accept his truth?
"[...] The only area that I don't think looks good is Paul's lack of crediting his sources, to the point of making it look like he, or Rebazar Tarzs, was the original source. This looks especially bad these days, since copyright law has become much more controlled and publicized. However, it doesn't appear to have been much of a problem while Paul was alive. [... .]"
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/Er0VHRTk_sc/m/NQYn-wQ00FIJ
"Paul fictionalized his accounts, because he was an experienced writer and knew that stories were far more effective than lectures. Paul set himself up as simply a seeker, in The Tiger's Fang, because he knew from experience that people learn very differently from those who come across as authorities, than from someone who they can identify with, who is describing a personal experience. He created the dialog with Rebazar Tarzs, in The Far Country, because this was a much more effective and interesting way of communicating, than simply pontificating."
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.religion.eckankar/cHzE0Cdcfy4/M6ZJAPyvTNsJ
The Tiger's Fang was one of the first published Eckankar books. The apologist says: "He created the dialog with Rebazar Tarzs, in The Far Country, because this was a much more effective and interesting way of communicating, than simply pontificating."
I would add: "Created with copied, paraphrased and plagiarized words."
Created? Fictionalized? Faked? What don't you understand, Kinpa?
Another Doug Marman truth.
"Strange as it may seem today, back when Paul began writing his books, such as The Far Country, the creation of myth was still seen as a necessary requirement of most spiritual paths."
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/GBwgDKAztbI/m/zAJCPXv-SP8J
Rebazar Tarzs was created? Fiction? Myth?
HOW ABOUT FAKE? HOW ABOUT NOT REAL?
Your truth? Doug's truth? My truth? HOW ABOUT THE TRUTH? EVER HEAR OF THAT?
It is true that Doug Marman wrote the quotes I presented. They can be verified as THE TRUTH. IOW, written by Doug.
Doug Marman quotes from May, 1999.
"Paul used a technique known to writers as fictionalization. This is when an author would like to present a bunch of important information but doesn't want to do it in a boring, preaching way, but would rather present the material in a way that not only says something, but also shows something."
"As for the changing of the names, well Paul first offered these manuscripts to Kirpal for him to publish, to help spread the teaching under Kirpal's name. Kirpal rejected them. Paul chose to distance himself from Kirpal, rather than ride on the coattails of Sant Mat. This left Paul free to teach a number of things that are not taught within Sant Mat, and yet teach the ancient truth at the same time."
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/4ysJK655x2I/m/BkzOX1azAwAJ
How did your idol answer the question about fake masters? I already showed you what Doug wrote. Here are some more quotes.
"3. Did Paul Twitchell copy other writers works?"
How did Doug answer?
"Yes. Well, I guess I can give yes or no answers sometimes."
"4. Did Paul Twitchell use other writers words and put his Eck masters names on them as if the Eck Master were saying them?"
How did Doug answer?
He answered: "Yes."
Based on: - A Few Responses - Doug Marman - February 8th, 2004
http://www.thetruth-seeker.com/dispBB.aspx?st=268&page=168#m264
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/RZi5pwN4JgU/m/8vCxP_6cAQAJ
It's called faking, Kinpa. Paul Twitchell not only faked Eck Masters, he faked a lot of history. A lot of true history.
Now you know about faking, right? All those things you told me that were fake? All the poop accidents. That I was not a member of Eckankar. Rember? And when you faked the expiration date of my membership card? They are just four letters. Just like the names Kinpa and Fife. Let's look at those letters in large caps.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Show me the post I made where " when you faked the expiration date of my membership card." I only presented a picture of MY membership card with the actual expiration date. I never posted your card at all. So by all means, go grab the link for that.
You honestly seem to be rather emotionally unstable and perhaps not mentally balanced. I'm no doctor so i can't offer diagnosis, but you seem unwell at the very least. Now, stop ranting and go grab that post where I offered a picture of an altered membership card with your name and an inaccurate date on it, because I'm certain that I didn't ever do that. I've only asked YOU to take a pic of your own card and post it here so I could see the expiration date, and that AFTER I presented mine. Not rocket science, so why are you having such a hard time remembering what actually happened???
Oh, and grab that evidence that Rebazar Tarzs does not exist while you're making the effort, we may as well kill two birds at the same time. If you're just going to rant and squeal ABOUT the things we disagree on, there is no point responding at all.
Once again, it is VERY simple, put up or shut up.

When you couldn't see my membership card then you went and made one up? Complete with an expiration date? Did you remote view that one too?

IOW, when Kinpa doesn't get what he wants he simply makes up, or imagines what he wants? Even when it is not true and people tell him over and over about it. It's not that you don't appear to know what you said, did. You don't remember even though you were reminded about it over and over. That sounds like a condition to me.

From the definition for fake: As a verb, "to feign, simulate" from 1941.

https://www.etymonline.com/search?q=fake

From definition for feign: dissemble, make false pretenses, lie; pretend to be" (c. 1300)

https://www.etymonline.com/search?q=feign

From definition for simulate: 1620s, "feign, pretend, assume falsely"

https://www.etymonline.com/search?q=simulate

Kinpa Wormtongue quote:

"... regardless of what I said about your membership, there is nothing you can do, I also get to have my own opinions, but you know full well that if you look at your card it says the date I gave you, you simply refuse to admit that...."

https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/UKTYqCQg2fY/m/qZRe_g3caXAJ

What's that Kinpa?

These are in chronological order. Look at how he (Kinpa) outright told me I did not have an active membership card and even tried to tell me what was the expiration date of the card. And when that didn't work he tried to backtrack as if he never said what he did.

Kinpa quotes

07/04/15

"Yes, quite like your actions at ARE for the past several years, claiming to have proof of things you cannot prove, and claiming to be an ECKist and yet having no current card....if you'd like to scan a copy of your card and post it here, I would be willing to withdraw that statement, but I think it goes quite a way in proving that YOU have been purposely deceiving others, if not flat out lying..."

"... You have told me you were a member, but that IS a lie, that is the simple fact of the matter, you are NOT a current member of Eckankar, therefore you are most certainly NOT an ECKist by ANY standards! You speak as if you expect that making the CLAIM of being an ECKist has ANY value, however it does not! Yes the card DOES matter! If you were a member and can prove tat, as I said I will retract those words, but you have never proven that, so it is only a CLAIM that is 100% without evidence! [...]

"Your being an "ECKist" is also untrue...you pay sometimes, and you let it lapse, and then you come here and are anything BUT an ECKist...you do NOT have a current card! THAT is the reason you refuse to show anything, but that isn't surprising, you NEVER show anything! [...]"

"Oct./2014 is not exactly current Mr. McLintock, feel free to deny it and claim I am crazy, your habits are well known, but that cannot change the fact that you KNOW this is true, pull your card out and look at it!"

Note: Text for deleted post(s) is here:

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.religion.eckankar/uHSdZQXyfAo/nurhMbhI2G4J

and here:

http://alt.religion.eckankar.narkive.com/5eUyI9Dc/kinpa-wrote-you-have-told-me-you-were-a-eck-member-but-that-is-a-lie-2015-04-07

and here:

http://www.jlaforums.com/viewtopic.php?t=331308126&start=20

07/06/15

"... regardless of what I said about your membership, there is nothing you can do, I also get to have my own opinions, but you know full well that if you look at your card it says the date I gave you, you simply refuse to admit that ... ."

07/08/15

"... much like your false Eckankar membership (which does not currently exist) ... ."

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.religion.eckankar/KVOiP_ApFwM/eVwKF8yOnVsJ

07/11/15

"[...] Richard McLintock! I'd be happy to speak to headquarters and have them get your membership records which at the very least, would prove who was right and who was wrong about that issue. You are completely mistaken if you think that to be some sort of private info! [... .]"

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.religion.eckankar/BrMdjOdqv8o/q8fU2r-UqPsJ

01/06/16

" ... and I still maintain that you do NOT have a card at all! Tough luck I guess! Have a great night richard! ... ."

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.religion.eckankar/0Rlgf1XTLIQ/izvFKPj_BAAJ

"That was how this began, I did not ever ask you. I stated that you do NOT have a current one. [...] feel free to prove me wrong!"

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.religion.eckankar/mKPJPAMq0rs/85-0VhIjs8cJ

"Keep crying and whining each time anyone says a thing that you dislike! Eckankar needs no defense from the likes of you! It amuses me that you think it does however. How flattering that you devote so much of your time to go and dig things up that you try so hard to misrepresent here. Endlessly hilarious! Feel free to not send in your donation to Eckankar! LOL"

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.religion.eckankar/A6-M2o6FDeM/pwqLLBVwAgAJ

"Most just don't care in the least....how long has it been since you were an actual ECKist?"

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.religion.eckankar/FskYigVi5Wc/exBGVDf-AAAJ

"Stop masking your own denial! Hilarious! He asked you whether or not you are an ECKist. Why did you not answer him and try to change the subject? I know that you have CLAIMED to be an ECKist, but you have never actually proven that to be true. I like him highly doubt that you are in any way affiliated with Eckankar in the least of ways...it may not be your responsibility, but I am calling you a liar for claiming to be an ECKist. You ARE responsible for making false claims. Deal with it. Also, plagiarism in no way disproves the existence of any Masters... Have a great day richie!"

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.religion.eckankar/Y3d-5iRxC7s/12NES5OyCAAJ

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.religion.eckankar/nq-YKbmRt1Q/McAAY5zXAwAJ

Here is the link for that post.

https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/AC9nlkiwQF0/m/Lkwri1swBQAJ

So Kinpa doublespeak, you say I am not a member and don't have a current card. You respond and suggest I do have a card, and that you know the expiration date. It's all you. The problem is you.

Ever hear of the truth? Your statements were false and fake. But by the way, if you saw my membership card with an expiration date on it, prove it to me. Show me the card. But you can't because you faked all that. It doesn't exist. Did you forget this?

"Oct./2014 is not exactly current Mr. McLintock, feel free to deny it and claim I am crazy, your habits are well known, but that cannot change the fact that you KNOW this is true, pull your card out and look at it!"

That was more than stating your opinion, Kinpa. That was telling me (and everybody who read / reads) your posts false and fake information. More malicious falsehoods by one who doesn't remember.

Did I also explain to you that I called headquarters and told them about an Eckist who lied about my membership information? Did I tell you that the person laughed at your lies? And did I tell you they assured me about confidential information, but you continued to make fake statements about my membership? I think you are the crazy one.

Interesting how all these conversations and topics, but Fife has suddenly clammed up. The same Fife who had a habit of responding to practically every post, often multiple times.

Fife is mostly silent when Kinpa is posting. Kinpa is mostly silent when Fife is posting. Seldom, if ever, do they appear and respond at the same time; or have conversations with one another. That is just a little more than curious, IMO.

Henosis Sage

2022-04-18 07:43:32 UTC

On Monday, 18 April 2022 at 07:30:36 UTC+10, Etznab wrote:
Kinpa Wormtongue quote:

"... regardless of what I said about your membership, there is nothing you can do, I also get to have my own opinions, but you know full well that if you look at your card it says the date I gave you, you simply refuse to admit that...."

https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/UKTYqCQg2fY/m/qZRe_g3caXAJ

What's that Kinpa?

ROTFLMFAO ....

IT IS ALL RECORDED .... people only need to go read what he writes .... there's the proof.

Henosis Sage

2022-04-18 07:30:53 UTC

On Monday, 18 April 2022 at 01:00:29 UTC+10, Kinpa wrote:

People can read what he writes. It's not hard to work it out.

Once again, it is VERY simple, he can put up or shut up.

Prove Eztnab is not / was not a member of Eckankar ......

Prove Rebazar Tarzs is a real eck master who lived and is still teaching in spirit form on the inner.

It is very simple, so do it.

Put up or shut up.

Thanks for the free entertainment. mentally dysfunctional pathological narcissists are always comical to see in action, in full flight.

Encore!

Kinpa

2022-04-09 15:02:50 UTC

Why doesn't the current leader of Eckankar take dictation from a Rebazar Tarzs? My guess is that he knows better. Paul Twitchell died a long time ago and long before so many people learned about his extensive copying and pseudo history. His successor (Darwin Gross), who was later named by Paul Twitchell's widow (the same who also married him for a time), was not so forthcoming about his predecessor's plagiarisms, etc. (even though Paul's widow would later, on at least two occasions, reportedly tell others that Paul made so many things up. So, IMHO, the current living master CANNOT get away with doing what Paul Twitchell did. Like plagiarize so many books and claim that Rebazar was the author. Look on the official Eckankar website and where the leader says Paul got his writings from. Why doesn't it say that Paul got his copied, paraphrased, plagiarized compiled words from Rebazar Tarzs?
How about because it is not really true that Rebazar Tarzs was a plagiarist? Paul Twitchell was the plagiarist, former pulp-fiction writer and "rascal" who didn't always tell the truth.

Oh. Now it's Fife.
Usually you jump on every are post and respond quickly. Especially posts by me. So where were you when I wrote about Kinpa, Fife and Atzumi? Funny thing that. Another reason I doubt your sincerity, because you can't criticize Kinpa; one of the most vile posters in a.r.e. history. Is this because you are Kinpa and can't criticize (let alone write to) yourself on a.r.e.?
But you can criticize me alright. And practically every post that I write going on years now. And you do it similarly as Kinpa. Like an immature adult with a bone to pick.
You already know what I believe, Fife. I believe in the plain and simple truth(s) about Eckankar, Eckankar masters and history.
Eckankar, the truth, is not some fantasy novel with a cult of people raising holy hell with everybody who doesn't believe and live in their imaginary la la land. Eckankar, the truth, is not a bunch of Kinpa's and Fife's disrespecting and twisting around the truth.
Paul Twitchell and Eckankar promote copied words under the guise of Eckankar masters, promote the pseudo history and religion concocted years ago, but with a few revisions. You know this, and I think your alter ego Kinpa knows it well too. In my opinion it's you and Kinpa who want to push the old eckankar spells of illusion and control the narrative.
Rebazar Tarzs and the Eck masters are like the saints in other religions you say? Every religion borrows from those before it and evolves the teachings (good stuff) says Kinpa? I don't like to always share the truth, because (like Paul Twitchell) I feel it's sometimes more fun to find out on your own, says Harold?
Oh really? How about stop cheapening the image of real masters and real history because some people are too gullible, or ignorant to know the truth from fantasy? Or want to get powerful and rich from converting as many as possible to believe in fictions?

I am not Fife, nor have I ever spoken to whomever that is. However I find it extremely comical that you assume (completely without evidence) that any are the same individual. I am none of those others you've named and never will be. If you can prove otherwise, present your evidence. You never do because none exists.

Btw, stop reflecting your own inadequacies and labeling them as mine. I've no bone to pick with you and never have. It has never been anything other than entertainment for me. Get over yourself and the bone you have to pick with me. Anyone can prove this claim true by simply reading how many times over the years since I stopped responding you and other have continued mentioning my name. You have an obsession, and perhaps a few mental/emotional issues that you ought to seriously consult a professional about to get them resolved within yourself. Then you could stop mentioning me, as any normal person who didn't have "a bone to pick" would do. That is the one thing I've never seen come from you. Prove me wrong, I DARE you.

fife

2022-04-13 13:37:46 UTC

Why doesn't the current leader of Eckankar take dictation from a Rebazar Tarzs? My guess is that he knows better. Paul Twitchell died a long time ago and long before so many people learned about his extensive copying and pseudo history. His successor (Darwin Gross), who was later named by Paul Twitchell's widow (the same who also married him for a time), was not so forthcoming about his predecessor's plagiarisms, etc. (even though Paul's widow would later, on at least two occasions, reportedly tell others that Paul made so many things up. So, IMHO, the current living master CANNOT get away with doing what Paul Twitchell did. Like plagiarize so many books and claim that Rebazar was the author. Look on the official Eckankar website and where the leader says Paul got his writings from. Why doesn't it say that Paul got his copied, paraphrased, plagiarized compiled words from Rebazar Tarzs?
How about because it is not really true that Rebazar Tarzs was a plagiarist? Paul Twitchell was the plagiarist, former pulp-fiction writer and "rascal" who didn't always tell the truth.

Oh. Now it's Fife.
Usually you jump on every are post and respond quickly. Especially posts by me. So where were you when I wrote about Kinpa, Fife and Atzumi? Funny thing that. Another reason I doubt your sincerity, because you can't criticize Kinpa; one of the most vile posters in a.r.e. history. Is this because you are Kinpa and can't criticize (let alone write to) yourself on a.r.e.?
But you can criticize me alright. And practically every post that I write going on years now. And you do it similarly as Kinpa. Like an immature adult with a bone to pick.
You already know what I believe, Fife. I believe in the plain and simple truth(s) about Eckankar, Eckankar masters and history.
Eckankar, the truth, is not some fantasy novel with a cult of people raising holy hell with everybody who doesn't believe and live in their imaginary la la land. Eckankar, the truth, is not a bunch of Kinpa's and Fife's disrespecting and twisting around the truth.
Paul Twitchell and Eckankar promote copied words under the guise of Eckankar masters, promote the pseudo history and religion concocted years ago, but with a few revisions. You know this, and I think your alter ego Kinpa knows it well too. In my opinion it's you and Kinpa who want to push the old eckankar spells of illusion and control the narrative.
Rebazar Tarzs and the Eck masters are like the saints in other religions you say? Every religion borrows from those before it and evolves the teachings (good stuff) says Kinpa? I don't like to always share the truth, because (like Paul Twitchell) I feel it's sometimes more fun to find out on your own, says Harold?
Oh really? How about stop cheapening the image of real masters and real history because some people are too gullible, or ignorant to know the truth from fantasy? Or want to get powerful and rich from converting as many as possible to believe in fictions?

Etznab:
You say you believe in the plain and simple truths(s) about Eckankar, Eckankar masters, and history?

Okay. Let's get as plain and simple as that gets. Back to the beginning. First of all let's agree that ekankar and eckankar are the same thing. J.P.T. claimed that his spelling was just a corruption of the original.

Okay. Back to the beginning. Somehow there's God and somehow a sound comes out of it. That sound is the universe. And the universe is ekankar.

Do you believe that? That's the origin story Twitchell ripped off from Radha Soami and the one Eckankar subscribes to, using the word eckankar instead of ekankar of course.

Want to know how that works? Your mind has four faculties. Manas, citta, buddhi, and ahamkara. Substitute God, sound, universe, and ekankar and viola! Is that the truth? How do you know? You've lost your mind. You're fucked. It's been completely taken over, commandeered, hijacked, appropriated, by substitution.

Now you'll believe any earworm some jackass puts into your head.

You believe Eckankar is the truth because you started out believing that. Now you're just trying to find a way to justify that belief but you can't do it.

In the end it's just belief. Isn't it? And if it's the truth you don't have to justify it. So what's the problem?

How can I say all this? Because it all comes out of the Vedic perception of mind. Which in turn is based on unconscious will, conformation, conscious will, and self consciousness. But all the hyperbole becomes so full of its own shit, so filled with pride, that it believes that it is its own origin and everything comes from it instead of the other way around.

Do you know how to process irrational wishing, the pleasure principle, psychic energy, and instinct? You do? Congratulations! You're the Mahanta. Didn't think you could do it, huh?

Eckankar is devotion to itself without and further explanation because you're not going to get any.

fife

2022-04-13 13:42:02 UTC

Why doesn't the current leader of Eckankar take dictation from a Rebazar Tarzs? My guess is that he knows better. Paul Twitchell died a long time ago and long before so many people learned about his extensive copying and pseudo history. His successor (Darwin Gross), who was later named by Paul Twitchell's widow (the same who also married him for a time), was not so forthcoming about his predecessor's plagiarisms, etc. (even though Paul's widow would later, on at least two occasions, reportedly tell others that Paul made so many things up. So, IMHO, the current living master CANNOT get away with doing what Paul Twitchell did. Like plagiarize so many books and claim that Rebazar was the author. Look on the official Eckankar website and where the leader says Paul got his writings from. Why doesn't it say that Paul got his copied, paraphrased, plagiarized compiled words from Rebazar Tarzs?
How about because it is not really true that Rebazar Tarzs was a plagiarist? Paul Twitchell was the plagiarist, former pulp-fiction writer and "rascal" who didn't always tell the truth.

Oh. Now it's Fife.
Usually you jump on every are post and respond quickly. Especially posts by me. So where were you when I wrote about Kinpa, Fife and Atzumi? Funny thing that. Another reason I doubt your sincerity, because you can't criticize Kinpa; one of the most vile posters in a.r.e. history. Is this because you are Kinpa and can't criticize (let alone write to) yourself on a.r.e.?
But you can criticize me alright. And practically every post that I write going on years now. And you do it similarly as Kinpa. Like an immature adult with a bone to pick.
You already know what I believe, Fife. I believe in the plain and simple truth(s) about Eckankar, Eckankar masters and history.
Eckankar, the truth, is not some fantasy novel with a cult of people raising holy hell with everybody who doesn't believe and live in their imaginary la la land. Eckankar, the truth, is not a bunch of Kinpa's and Fife's disrespecting and twisting around the truth.
Paul Twitchell and Eckankar promote copied words under the guise of Eckankar masters, promote the pseudo history and religion concocted years ago, but with a few revisions. You know this, and I think your alter ego Kinpa knows it well too. In my opinion it's you and Kinpa who want to push the old eckankar spells of illusion and control the narrative.
Rebazar Tarzs and the Eck masters are like the saints in other religions you say? Every religion borrows from those before it and evolves the teachings (good stuff) says Kinpa? I don't like to always share the truth, because (like Paul Twitchell) I feel it's sometimes more fun to find out on your own, says Harold?
Oh really? How about stop cheapening the image of real masters and real history because some people are too gullible, or ignorant to know the truth from fantasy? Or want to get powerful and rich from converting as many as possible to believe in fictions?

You say you believe in the plain and simple truths(s) about Eckankar, Eckankar masters, and history?
Okay. Let's get as plain and simple as that gets. Back to the beginning. First of all let's agree that ekankar and eckankar are the same thing. J.P.T. claimed that his spelling was just a corruption of the original.
Okay. Back to the beginning. Somehow there's God and somehow a sound comes out of it. That sound is the universe. And the universe is ekankar.
Do you believe that? That's the origin story Twitchell ripped off from Radha Soami and the one Eckankar subscribes to, using the word eckankar instead of ekankar of course.
Want to know how that works? Your mind has four faculties. Manas, citta, buddhi, and ahamkara. Substitute God, sound, universe, and ekankar and viola! Is that the truth? How do you know? You've lost your mind. You're fucked. It's been completely taken over, commandeered, hijacked, appropriated, by substitution.
Now you'll believe any earworm some jackass puts into your head.
You believe Eckankar is the truth because you started out believing that. Now you're just trying to find a way to justify that belief but you can't do it.
In the end it's just belief. Isn't it? And if it's the truth you don't have to justify it. So what's the problem?
How can I say all this? Because it all comes out of the Vedic perception of mind. Which in turn is based on unconscious will, conformation, conscious will, and self consciousness. But all the hyperbole becomes so full of its own shit, so filled with pride, that it believes that it is its own origin and everything comes from it instead of the other way around.
Do you know how to process irrational wishing, the pleasure principle, psychic energy, and instinct? You do? Congratulations! You're the Mahanta. Didn't think you could do it, huh?
Eckankar is devotion to itself without and further explanation because you're not going to get any.

Who does that appeal to?

Etznab

2022-04-13 17:40:33 UTC

Why doesn't the current leader of Eckankar take dictation from a Rebazar Tarzs? My guess is that he knows better. Paul Twitchell died a long time ago and long before so many people learned about his extensive copying and pseudo history. His successor (Darwin Gross), who was later named by Paul Twitchell's widow (the same who also married him for a time), was not so forthcoming about his predecessor's plagiarisms, etc. (even though Paul's widow would later, on at least two occasions, reportedly tell others that Paul made so many things up. So, IMHO, the current living master CANNOT get away with doing what Paul Twitchell did. Like plagiarize so many books and claim that Rebazar was the author. Look on the official Eckankar website and where the leader says Paul got his writings from. Why doesn't it say that Paul got his copied, paraphrased, plagiarized compiled words from Rebazar Tarzs?
How about because it is not really true that Rebazar Tarzs was a plagiarist? Paul Twitchell was the plagiarist, former pulp-fiction writer and "rascal" who didn't always tell the truth.

Oh. Now it's Fife.
Usually you jump on every are post and respond quickly. Especially posts by me. So where were you when I wrote about Kinpa, Fife and Atzumi? Funny thing that. Another reason I doubt your sincerity, because you can't criticize Kinpa; one of the most vile posters in a.r.e. history. Is this because you are Kinpa and can't criticize (let alone write to) yourself on a.r.e.?
But you can criticize me alright. And practically every post that I write going on years now. And you do it similarly as Kinpa. Like an immature adult with a bone to pick.
You already know what I believe, Fife. I believe in the plain and simple truth(s) about Eckankar, Eckankar masters and history.
Eckankar, the truth, is not some fantasy novel with a cult of people raising holy hell with everybody who doesn't believe and live in their imaginary la la land. Eckankar, the truth, is not a bunch of Kinpa's and Fife's disrespecting and twisting around the truth.
Paul Twitchell and Eckankar promote copied words under the guise of Eckankar masters, promote the pseudo history and religion concocted years ago, but with a few revisions. You know this, and I think your alter ego Kinpa knows it well too. In my opinion it's you and Kinpa who want to push the old eckankar spells of illusion and control the narrative.
Rebazar Tarzs and the Eck masters are like the saints in other religions you say? Every religion borrows from those before it and evolves the teachings (good stuff) says Kinpa? I don't like to always share the truth, because (like Paul Twitchell) I feel it's sometimes more fun to find out on your own, says Harold?
Oh really? How about stop cheapening the image of real masters and real history because some people are too gullible, or ignorant to know the truth from fantasy? Or want to get powerful and rich from converting as many as possible to believe in fictions?

Thanks for sharing your thoughts and beliefs. When you try to speak for others, I believe you are sadly mistaken.

fife

2022-04-14 15:37:55 UTC

Why doesn't the current leader of Eckankar take dictation from a Rebazar Tarzs? My guess is that he knows better. Paul Twitchell died a long time ago and long before so many people learned about his extensive copying and pseudo history. His successor (Darwin Gross), who was later named by Paul Twitchell's widow (the same who also married him for a time), was not so forthcoming about his predecessor's plagiarisms, etc. (even though Paul's widow would later, on at least two occasions, reportedly tell others that Paul made so many things up. So, IMHO, the current living master CANNOT get away with doing what Paul Twitchell did. Like plagiarize so many books and claim that Rebazar was the author. Look on the official Eckankar website and where the leader says Paul got his writings from. Why doesn't it say that Paul got his copied, paraphrased, plagiarized compiled words from Rebazar Tarzs?
How about because it is not really true that Rebazar Tarzs was a plagiarist? Paul Twitchell was the plagiarist, former pulp-fiction writer and "rascal" who didn't always tell the truth.

Oh. Now it's Fife.
Usually you jump on every are post and respond quickly. Especially posts by me. So where were you when I wrote about Kinpa, Fife and Atzumi? Funny thing that. Another reason I doubt your sincerity, because you can't criticize Kinpa; one of the most vile posters in a.r.e. history. Is this because you are Kinpa and can't criticize (let alone write to) yourself on a.r.e.?
But you can criticize me alright. And practically every post that I write going on years now. And you do it similarly as Kinpa. Like an immature adult with a bone to pick.
You already know what I believe, Fife. I believe in the plain and simple truth(s) about Eckankar, Eckankar masters and history.
Eckankar, the truth, is not some fantasy novel with a cult of people raising holy hell with everybody who doesn't believe and live in their imaginary la la land. Eckankar, the truth, is not a bunch of Kinpa's and Fife's disrespecting and twisting around the truth.
Paul Twitchell and Eckankar promote copied words under the guise of Eckankar masters, promote the pseudo history and religion concocted years ago, but with a few revisions. You know this, and I think your alter ego Kinpa knows it well too. In my opinion it's you and Kinpa who want to push the old eckankar spells of illusion and control the narrative.
Rebazar Tarzs and the Eck masters are like the saints in other religions you say? Every religion borrows from those before it and evolves the teachings (good stuff) says Kinpa? I don't like to always share the truth, because (like Paul Twitchell) I feel it's sometimes more fun to find out on your own, says Harold?
Oh really? How about stop cheapening the image of real masters and real history because some people are too gullible, or ignorant to know the truth from fantasy? Or want to get powerful and rich from converting as many as possible to believe in fictions?

Thanks for sharing your thoughts and beliefs. When you try to speak for others, I believe you are sadly mistaken.

It's not a rebuke, Etznab. But you do post and post a lot of stuff, none of which reflects a transformation from handling the same material over and over, reviewing and reviewing it. Sure, it's all a continuous cycle but the elements of the cycle also form a process for processing information. Nor is there only one kind of information. There's physical, emotional, etc., etc..

Organics, living people, are compositions made up of many things. Physics, chemistry, emotion, memory, thought, feeling, intuition... Not to mention the five karmas everyone deals with and the type of "journey" they're on. (The twelve journeys of Soul - the ECK Vidya.)

You've been a student of Eckankar for 35 years. I don't know what student/study means to you but to me it means looking at many different things in many different ways over and over until they make sense. And the transformation, when there is a transformation, isn't to what you're studying but within yourself. A transformation of thought, feeling or whatever it happens to be. A higher, better, deeper, wider, or whatever it ihappens to be of understanding.

Klemp, Gross, Twitchell all hold or held the same idea of the Vedic perception of mind. There's a whole chapter on it in P. Morimitsu's book In The Company of ECK Masters. There's even a diagram of how it sets up to process. One kind of process, anyhow.

Henosis Sage

2022-04-15 00:29:57 UTC

Why doesn't the current leader of Eckankar take dictation from a Rebazar Tarzs? My guess is that he knows better. Paul Twitchell died a long time ago and long before so many people learned about his extensive copying and pseudo history. His successor (Darwin Gross), who was later named by Paul Twitchell's widow (the same who also married him for a time), was not so forthcoming about his predecessor's plagiarisms, etc. (even though Paul's widow would later, on at least two occasions, reportedly tell others that Paul made so many things up. So, IMHO, the current living master CANNOT get away with doing what Paul Twitchell did. Like plagiarize so many books and claim that Rebazar was the author. Look on the official Eckankar website and where the leader says Paul got his writings from. Why doesn't it say that Paul got his copied, paraphrased, plagiarized compiled words from Rebazar Tarzs?
How about because it is not really true that Rebazar Tarzs was a plagiarist? Paul Twitchell was the plagiarist, former pulp-fiction writer and "rascal" who didn't always tell the truth.

Oh. Now it's Fife.
Usually you jump on every are post and respond quickly. Especially posts by me. So where were you when I wrote about Kinpa, Fife and Atzumi? Funny thing that. Another reason I doubt your sincerity, because you can't criticize Kinpa; one of the most vile posters in a.r.e. history. Is this because you are Kinpa and can't criticize (let alone write to) yourself on a.r.e.?
But you can criticize me alright. And practically every post that I write going on years now. And you do it similarly as Kinpa. Like an immature adult with a bone to pick.
You already know what I believe, Fife. I believe in the plain and simple truth(s) about Eckankar, Eckankar masters and history.
Eckankar, the truth, is not some fantasy novel with a cult of people raising holy hell with everybody who doesn't believe and live in their imaginary la la land. Eckankar, the truth, is not a bunch of Kinpa's and Fife's disrespecting and twisting around the truth.
Paul Twitchell and Eckankar promote copied words under the guise of Eckankar masters, promote the pseudo history and religion concocted years ago, but with a few revisions. You know this, and I think your alter ego Kinpa knows it well too. In my opinion it's you and Kinpa who want to push the old eckankar spells of illusion and control the narrative.
Rebazar Tarzs and the Eck masters are like the saints in other religions you say? Every religion borrows from those before it and evolves the teachings (good stuff) says Kinpa? I don't like to always share the truth, because (like Paul Twitchell) I feel it's sometimes more fun to find out on your own, says Harold?
Oh really? How about stop cheapening the image of real masters and real history because some people are too gullible, or ignorant to know the truth from fantasy? Or want to get powerful and rich from converting as many as possible to believe in fictions?

Thanks for sharing your thoughts and beliefs. When you try to speak for others, I believe you are sadly mistaken.

It's not a rebuke, Etznab. But you do post and post a lot of stuff, none of which reflects a transformation from handling the same material over and over, reviewing and reviewing it. Sure, it's all a continuous cycle but the elements of the cycle also form a process for processing information. Nor is there only one kind of information. There's physical, emotional, etc., etc..
Organics, living people, are compositions made up of many things. Physics, chemistry, emotion, memory, thought, feeling, intuition... Not to mention the five karmas everyone deals with and the type of "journey" they're on. (The twelve journeys of Soul - the ECK Vidya.)
You've been a student of Eckankar for 35 years. I don't know what student/study means to you but to me it means looking at many different things in many different ways over and over until they make sense. And the transformation, when there is a transformation, isn't to what you're studying but within yourself. A transformation of thought, feeling or whatever it happens to be. A higher, better, deeper, wider, or whatever it ihappens to be of understanding.
Klemp, Gross, Twitchell all hold or held the same idea of the Vedic perception of mind. There's a whole chapter on it in P. Morimitsu's book In The Company of ECK Masters. There's even a diagram of how it sets up to process. One kind of process, anyhow.

hi fife,
so now here you are an apologist for/promoting eckankar as if it's useful, functional .... wtf?

and PS somewhere you mentioned eckankar/eckankar
Eckankar does not mean the same thing as Kirpal/sant mat Ekankar means.
I have covered that here long ago and on the archive.

Nor does eckankar mean what Ik ong kar of the Sikh mul mantra means either.
no matter what any eckist says, or marman et al.

academics and others could discuss those matters in the context of the ontology of the different groups and their beliefs .. fundamental epistemology (imo) but we will not get any discussions like that happening here.

that would require both clarity and commitment to speaking one's truth. lol

Henosis Sage

2022-04-15 00:43:34 UTC

Why doesn't the current leader of Eckankar take dictation from a Rebazar Tarzs? My guess is that he knows better. Paul Twitchell died a long time ago and long before so many people learned about his extensive copying and pseudo history. His successor (Darwin Gross), who was later named by Paul Twitchell's widow (the same who also married him for a time), was not so forthcoming about his predecessor's plagiarisms, etc. (even though Paul's widow would later, on at least two occasions, reportedly tell others that Paul made so many things up. So, IMHO, the current living master CANNOT get away with doing what Paul Twitchell did. Like plagiarize so many books and claim that Rebazar was the author. Look on the official Eckankar website and where the leader says Paul got his writings from. Why doesn't it say that Paul got his copied, paraphrased, plagiarized compiled words from Rebazar Tarzs?
How about because it is not really true that Rebazar Tarzs was a plagiarist? Paul Twitchell was the plagiarist, former pulp-fiction writer and "rascal" who didn't always tell the truth.

Oh. Now it's Fife.
Usually you jump on every are post and respond quickly. Especially posts by me. So where were you when I wrote about Kinpa, Fife and Atzumi? Funny thing that. Another reason I doubt your sincerity, because you can't criticize Kinpa; one of the most vile posters in a.r.e. history. Is this because you are Kinpa and can't criticize (let alone write to) yourself on a.r.e.?
But you can criticize me alright. And practically every post that I write going on years now. And you do it similarly as Kinpa. Like an immature adult with a bone to pick.
You already know what I believe, Fife. I believe in the plain and simple truth(s) about Eckankar, Eckankar masters and history.
Eckankar, the truth, is not some fantasy novel with a cult of people raising holy hell with everybody who doesn't believe and live in their imaginary la la land. Eckankar, the truth, is not a bunch of Kinpa's and Fife's disrespecting and twisting around the truth.
Paul Twitchell and Eckankar promote copied words under the guise of Eckankar masters, promote the pseudo history and religion concocted years ago, but with a few revisions. You know this, and I think your alter ego Kinpa knows it well too. In my opinion it's you and Kinpa who want to push the old eckankar spells of illusion and control the narrative.
Rebazar Tarzs and the Eck masters are like the saints in other religions you say? Every religion borrows from those before it and evolves the teachings (good stuff) says Kinpa? I don't like to always share the truth, because (like Paul Twitchell) I feel it's sometimes more fun to find out on your own, says Harold?
Oh really? How about stop cheapening the image of real masters and real history because some people are too gullible, or ignorant to know the truth from fantasy? Or want to get powerful and rich from converting as many as possible to believe in fictions?

Thanks for sharing your thoughts and beliefs. When you try to speak for others, I believe you are sadly mistaken.

It's not a rebuke, Etznab. But you do post and post a lot of stuff, none of which reflects a transformation from handling the same material over and over, reviewing and reviewing it. Sure, it's all a continuous cycle but the elements of the cycle also form a process for processing information. Nor is there only one kind of information. There's physical, emotional, etc., etc..
Organics, living people, are compositions made up of many things. Physics, chemistry, emotion, memory, thought, feeling, intuition... Not to mention the five karmas everyone deals with and the type of "journey" they're on. (The twelve journeys of Soul - the ECK Vidya.)
You've been a student of Eckankar for 35 years. I don't know what student/study means to you but to me it means looking at many different things in many different ways over and over until they make sense. And the transformation, when there is a transformation, isn't to what you're studying but within yourself. A transformation of thought, feeling or whatever it happens to be. A higher, better, deeper, wider, or whatever it ihappens to be of understanding.
Klemp, Gross, Twitchell all hold or held the same idea of the Vedic perception of mind. There's a whole chapter on it in P. Morimitsu's book In The Company of ECK Masters. There's even a diagram of how it sets up to process. One kind of process, anyhow.

HERE IS THE BIGGY
PS ... " I don't know what student/study means to you but to me it means looking at many different things in many different ways over and over until they make sense."

TRYING TO MAKE SENSE OF ECKANKAR AND IT TEACHINGS, BOOKS, DISCOURSES, ONTOLOGY ETC WILL SEND ANYONE MAD.

LOOK WHAT HAPPENED TO DOUG MARMAN, TO HAROLD, TO DARWIN, TO MATT SHARPE, AND TO YOU FIFE.

NOTHING IN ECKANKAR MAKES SENSE .... IT'S HORSESHIT COMPILATION OF INCOMPREHENSIBLE INCOHERENT BULLSHIT THAT CONFLICTS WITH ITSELF .... ECKANKAR IS GARBAGE ..... YOU BELIEVE IN GARBAGE? THAT'S PLAIN NUTS.

TWITCHELL WAS AN INCOMPETENT BULLSHIT ARTIST ..... WHO MADE A FORTUNE SELLING HIS FICTIONAL GARBAGE TO THE ALREADY DELUSIONAL DYSFUNCTIONAL DISMAYED AND VERY CONFUSED PEOPLE OF THIS WORLD.

COPYING SECTIONS OF TEXT FROM THOUSANDS OF OTHERS JUMBLING IT TOGETHER WITH STICKY TAPE DOES NOT RISE TO THE LEVEL OF SOMETHING USEFUL TO OTHERS.

and more specifically, nothing you said above makes any sense either fife. it's all gobbledygook to me. iow i see incoherent ramblings .... much like twitchell offered ... what matt sharpe offers, what harold offers, what marman offers .... madness.

you cannot make a silk purse out of a sows ear. not even twitchell can.

eckankar has the potential send people mad ..... buyer beware.

Etznab

2022-04-13 18:07:28 UTC

Why doesn't the current leader of Eckankar take dictation from a Rebazar Tarzs? My guess is that he knows better. Paul Twitchell died a long time ago and long before so many people learned about his extensive copying and pseudo history. His successor (Darwin Gross), who was later named by Paul Twitchell's widow (the same who also married him for a time), was not so forthcoming about his predecessor's plagiarisms, etc. (even though Paul's widow would later, on at least two occasions, reportedly tell others that Paul made so many things up. So, IMHO, the current living master CANNOT get away with doing what Paul Twitchell did. Like plagiarize so many books and claim that Rebazar was the author. Look on the official Eckankar website and where the leader says Paul got his writings from. Why doesn't it say that Paul got his copied, paraphrased, plagiarized compiled words from Rebazar Tarzs?
How about because it is not really true that Rebazar Tarzs was a plagiarist? Paul Twitchell was the plagiarist, former pulp-fiction writer and "rascal" who didn't always tell the truth.

Oh. Now it's Fife.
Usually you jump on every are post and respond quickly. Especially posts by me. So where were you when I wrote about Kinpa, Fife and Atzumi? Funny thing that. Another reason I doubt your sincerity, because you can't criticize Kinpa; one of the most vile posters in a.r.e. history. Is this because you are Kinpa and can't criticize (let alone write to) yourself on a.r.e.?
But you can criticize me alright. And practically every post that I write going on years now. And you do it similarly as Kinpa. Like an immature adult with a bone to pick.
You already know what I believe, Fife. I believe in the plain and simple truth(s) about Eckankar, Eckankar masters and history.
Eckankar, the truth, is not some fantasy novel with a cult of people raising holy hell with everybody who doesn't believe and live in their imaginary la la land. Eckankar, the truth, is not a bunch of Kinpa's and Fife's disrespecting and twisting around the truth.
Paul Twitchell and Eckankar promote copied words under the guise of Eckankar masters, promote the pseudo history and religion concocted years ago, but with a few revisions. You know this, and I think your alter ego Kinpa knows it well too. In my opinion it's you and Kinpa who want to push the old eckankar spells of illusion and control the narrative.
Rebazar Tarzs and the Eck masters are like the saints in other religions you say? Every religion borrows from those before it and evolves the teachings (good stuff) says Kinpa? I don't like to always share the truth, because (like Paul Twitchell) I feel it's sometimes more fun to find out on your own, says Harold?
Oh really? How about stop cheapening the image of real masters and real history because some people are too gullible, or ignorant to know the truth from fantasy? Or want to get powerful and rich from converting as many as possible to believe in fictions?

Fife. You (and Kinpa too) act like you know what I believe, but your posts don't reflect that.

Your posts show what you believe. Like Kinpa telling his malicious falsehoods and calling them entertainment. Like you personally trashing people and calling it humor.

Both of you IMHO write immaturely, making statements about the ways that people think and believe.

Neither of you should have to ask after years of posts where I explain my points. Points that other people can get and understand, but you two don't? Are you dimwits?

I believe you both feign ignorance because it's the only way to substitute your words for mine.

Henosis Sage

2022-04-11 03:12:21 UTC

Post by fife
What do you believe, how do you justify what you believe, and what have you decided is the truth about all this?
Pissing down everyone's neck every time you post just pisses people off and makes them want to come after you. It's got nothing to do with your veracity. If you really want to question Eckankar, learn how to question its ontology and epistemology.

That's curious "fife" because I have never seen you address eckankar with ontology and epistemology lines or in regard to justifying your own past and current beliefs here ... and it's been years and years so far.

What are your beliefs besides you opine eztnab is a pain in your neck - period - for years possibly decades now?

Would you be so kind to show him and I and future readers here how to question Eckankar and it's ontology and epistemology and describe your own beliefs are of Eckankar and what have you decided is the truth about all this??????????

THANKS IN ADVANCE ..... Seaniekins

PS
You might go the whole hog and tell us what you believe about Harold, and Twitchell, and Marman and Matt Sharpe while you're at it.

fife

2022-04-13 13:46:33 UTC

That's curious "fife" because I have never seen you address eckankar with ontology and epistemology lines or in regard to justifying your own past and current beliefs here ... and it's been years and years so far.
What are your beliefs besides you opine eztnab is a pain in your neck - period - for years possibly decades now?
Would you be so kind to show him and I and future readers here how to question Eckankar and it's ontology and epistemology and describe your own beliefs are of Eckankar and what have you decided is the truth about all this??????????
THANKS IN ADVANCE ..... Seaniekins
PS
You might go the whole hog and tell us what you believe about Harold, and Twitchell, and Marman and Matt Sharpe while you're at it.

Sean:
This isn't an instructional forum mate. Quit worrying about what other people are doing and stop washing your brain. No one's got a brainwash that's going to make you happy. You've got to make yourself happy or happy is never going to happen for you.

Etznab

2022-04-13 17:46:21 UTC

That's curious "fife" because I have never seen you address eckankar with ontology and epistemology lines or in regard to justifying your own past and current beliefs here ... and it's been years and years so far.
What are your beliefs besides you opine eztnab is a pain in your neck - period - for years possibly decades now?
Would you be so kind to show him and I and future readers here how to question Eckankar and it's ontology and epistemology and describe your own beliefs are of Eckankar and what have you decided is the truth about all this??????????
THANKS IN ADVANCE ..... Seaniekins
PS
You might go the whole hog and tell us what you believe about Harold, and Twitchell, and Marman and Matt Sharpe while you're at it.

This isn't an instructional forum mate. Quit worrying about what other people are doing and stop washing your brain. No one's got a brainwash that's going to make you happy. You've got to make yourself happy or happy is never going to happen for you.

It's obvious to me Fife is so opposed to Eckankar he has to substitute other words to replace what Eckankar uses. Some sort of metaphysical mumbo jumbo that only he understands. (Correct me if I'm wrong. Does anybody else in this group understand what Fife is trying to say?; other than being overly critical of Eckankar and people (except Kinpa) who post in this group?

Tisra Til

2022-04-14 21:18:39 UTC

That's curious "fife" because I have never seen you address eckankar with ontology and epistemology lines or in regard to justifying your own past and current beliefs here ... and it's been years and years so far.
What are your beliefs besides you opine eztnab is a pain in your neck - period - for years possibly decades now?
Would you be so kind to show him and I and future readers here how to question Eckankar and it's ontology and epistemology and describe your own beliefs are of Eckankar and what have you decided is the truth about all this??????????
THANKS IN ADVANCE ..... Seaniekins
PS
You might go the whole hog and tell us what you believe about Harold, and Twitchell, and Marman and Matt Sharpe while you're at it.

I think projecting is a common psychological phenomenon. Whether it’s religion, politics, culture, ethnicity, or age. Psychological development is trying to get beyond projecting onto others what exists in one’s own psyche. A large part, anyway.

Henosis Sage

2022-04-14 15:11:36 UTC

That's curious "fife" because I have never seen you address eckankar with ontology and epistemology lines or in regard to justifying your own past and current beliefs here ... and it's been years and years so far.
What are your beliefs besides you opine eztnab is a pain in your neck - period - for years possibly decades now?
Would you be so kind to show him and I and future readers here how to question Eckankar and it's ontology and epistemology and describe your own beliefs are of Eckankar and what have you decided is the truth about all this??????????
THANKS IN ADVANCE ..... Seaniekins
PS
You might go the whole hog and tell us what you believe about Harold, and Twitchell, and Marman and Matt Sharpe while you're at it.

fife the forum is for whatever i choose to make it, from one day to the next....

you say this to me --- Quit worrying about what other people are doing and stop washing your brain. No one's got a brainwash that's going to make you happy. You've got to make yourself happy or happy is never going to happen for you.

after you said this to etznab ...-- Pissing down everyone's neck every time you post just pisses people off and makes them want to come after you. It's got nothing to do with your veracity.

PHYSICIAN HEAL THYSELF

aka PRACTICE WHAT YOU PREACH FELLA.

(your hypocrisy and denial are showing --- ROFL )

have another go at understanding what i said before, or ignore it.
frankly, i don't really care either way. life's a series of choices. i think. :-)

fife

2022-04-14 23:02:29 UTC

That's curious "fife" because I have never seen you address eckankar with ontology and epistemology lines or in regard to justifying your own past and current beliefs here ... and it's been years and years so far.
What are your beliefs besides you opine eztnab is a pain in your neck - period - for years possibly decades now?
Would you be so kind to show him and I and future readers here how to question Eckankar and it's ontology and epistemology and describe your own beliefs are of Eckankar and what have you decided is the truth about all this??????????
THANKS IN ADVANCE ..... Seaniekins
PS
You might go the whole hog and tell us what you believe about Harold, and Twitchell, and Marman and Matt Sharpe while you're at it.

fife the forum is for whatever i choose to make it, from one day to the next....
you say this to me --- Quit worrying about what other people are doing and stop washing your brain. No one's got a brainwash that's going to make you happy. You've got to make yourself happy or happy is never going to happen for you.
after you said this to etznab ...-- Pissing down everyone's neck every time you post just pisses people off and makes them want to come after you. It's got nothing to do with your veracity.
PHYSICIAN HEAL THYSELF
aka PRACTICE WHAT YOU PREACH FELLA.
(your hypocrisy and denial are showing --- ROFL )
have another go at understanding what i said before, or ignore it.
frankly, i don't really care either way. life's a series of choices. i think. :-)

Sean:
"Physician heal thy self?" Look to myself? Well, the point is I do. So I sometimes wonder why other people don't or appear not to. As you say, everyone has reasons. But everyone who posts here either is or was in Eckankar or some sort of personal self-discovery. So I don't think it's a false assumption to believe there's still some interest in that.

Henosis Sage

2022-04-15 00:17:38 UTC

That's curious "fife" because I have never seen you address eckankar with ontology and epistemology lines or in regard to justifying your own past and current beliefs here ... and it's been years and years so far.
What are your beliefs besides you opine eztnab is a pain in your neck - period - for years possibly decades now?
Would you be so kind to show him and I and future readers here how to question Eckankar and it's ontology and epistemology and describe your own beliefs are of Eckankar and what have you decided is the truth about all this??????????
THANKS IN ADVANCE ..... Seaniekins
PS
You might go the whole hog and tell us what you believe about Harold, and Twitchell, and Marman and Matt Sharpe while you're at it.

fife the forum is for whatever i choose to make it, from one day to the next....
you say this to me --- Quit worrying about what other people are doing and stop washing your brain. No one's got a brainwash that's going to make you happy. You've got to make yourself happy or happy is never going to happen for you.
after you said this to etznab ...-- Pissing down everyone's neck every time you post just pisses people off and makes them want to come after you. It's got nothing to do with your veracity.
PHYSICIAN HEAL THYSELF
aka PRACTICE WHAT YOU PREACH FELLA.
(your hypocrisy and denial are showing --- ROFL )
have another go at understanding what i said before, or ignore it.
frankly, i don't really care either way. life's a series of choices. i think. :-)

"Physician heal thy self?" Look to myself? Well, the point is I do. So I sometimes wonder why other people don't or appear not to. As you say, everyone has reasons. But everyone who posts here either is or was in Eckankar or some sort of personal self-discovery. So I don't think it's a false assumption to believe there's still some interest in that.

Oh dear. why is it so hard to comprehend?

You say it "isn't an instructional forum" while you give instructions to others.

Me I asked a question/s, I asked you to make sense in what you were saying to etznab ... it was not an instruction on how to think or do.

You instructed etznab to use ontology/epist .... I asked you to give an example of that in practice. geez man .... you're plain disconnected here.

You're telling me to "Quit worrying about what other people are doing and stop washing your brain." while you keep telling etznab what to do and not do ... you have been doing that for YEARS MAN ..... that is what you do all the time.

so what is your reasons for not practicing what you preach? Do you have any?
what is with the obsession over what eztnab does or say?
are you your brothers keeper ?
sigh
and this comment -- "But everyone who posts here either is or was in Eckankar or some sort of personal self-discovery. So I don't think it's a false assumption to believe there's still some interest in that. "

is completely disconnected from anything I was addressing in this thread.. you were addressing how much etznab pisses EVERYONE OFFF ... everyone?

you're like MARMAN ..... insist on always talking for everyone else .... your boundaries are leaking fife. you do not speak for everyone.

you still have not done what i requested .... give an example of using ontology / epistemology to describe what eckakanar is and how it works what it means TO YOU ....

Nope you can't answer that. Can you?

you do not talk about eckankar here. you distract and goof off on unrelated personal stuff. whatever, you can use a.r.e. anyway you want .. that's YOUR choice.

but everyone gets to see what you say and make up their own minds about everything you say and do. me, i am just an occasional onlooker here these days.

no biggy. but i am not responsible for what anyone does or says. that's all on them .... ;-)

cheers sean

fife

2022-04-15 14:09:18 UTC

That's curious "fife" because I have never seen you address eckankar with ontology and epistemology lines or in regard to justifying your own past and current beliefs here ... and it's been years and years so far.
What are your beliefs besides you opine eztnab is a pain in your neck - period - for years possibly decades now?
Would you be so kind to show him and I and future readers here how to question Eckankar and it's ontology and epistemology and describe your own beliefs are of Eckankar and what have you decided is the truth about all this??????????
THANKS IN ADVANCE ..... Seaniekins
PS
You might go the whole hog and tell us what you believe about Harold, and Twitchell, and Marman and Matt Sharpe while you're at it.

fife the forum is for whatever i choose to make it, from one day to the next....
you say this to me --- Quit worrying about what other people are doing and stop washing your brain. No one's got a brainwash that's going to make you happy. You've got to make yourself happy or happy is never going to happen for you.
after you said this to etznab ...-- Pissing down everyone's neck every time you post just pisses people off and makes them want to come after you. It's got nothing to do with your veracity.
PHYSICIAN HEAL THYSELF
aka PRACTICE WHAT YOU PREACH FELLA.
(your hypocrisy and denial are showing --- ROFL )
have another go at understanding what i said before, or ignore it.
frankly, i don't really care either way. life's a series of choices. i think. :-)

Oh dear. why is it so hard to comprehend?
You say it "isn't an instructional forum" while you give instructions to others.
Me I asked a question/s, I asked you to make sense in what you were saying to etznab ... it was not an instruction on how to think or do.
You instructed etznab to use ontology/epist .... I asked you to give an example of that in practice. geez man .... you're plain disconnected here.
You're telling me to "Quit worrying about what other people are doing and stop washing your brain." while you keep telling etznab what to do and not do ... you have been doing that for YEARS MAN ..... that is what you do all the time.
so what is your reasons for not practicing what you preach? Do you have any?
what is with the obsession over what eztnab does or say?
are you your brothers keeper ?
sigh
and this comment -- "But everyone who posts here either is or was in Eckankar or some sort of personal self-discovery. So I don't think it's a false assumption to believe there's still some interest in that. "
is completely disconnected from anything I was addressing in this thread.. you were addressing how much etznab pisses EVERYONE OFFF ... everyone?
you're like MARMAN ..... insist on always talking for everyone else .... your boundaries are leaking fife. you do not speak for everyone.
you still have not done what i requested .... give an example of using ontology / epistemology to describe what eckakanar is and how it works what it means TO YOU ....
Nope you can't answer that. Can you?
you do not talk about eckankar here. you distract and goof off on unrelated personal stuff. whatever, you can use a.r.e. anyway you want .. that's YOUR choice.
but everyone gets to see what you say and make up their own minds about everything you say and do. me, i am just an occasional onlooker here these days.
no biggy. but i am not responsible for what anyone does or says. that's all on them .... ;-)
cheers sean

Sean:
Epistemology is the theory of knowledge. It breaks down into three main categories. Truth, belief, and justification. Ontology is the branch of metaphysics that deals with the nature of being. Can I discuss them? Certainly. Of course. I thought the first, being what it is, Might be right up Etznab's alley and something useful for him to explore. But since you've shown no interest, and in fact nothing but enmity, towards both for three years why in the world would I think I could discuss them with you?

Are you working up to another meltdown? Don't on my account.

"The world is okay but people are useless, rotten, vile, awful. All of them. There's no hope." That's the way all your meltdowns usually end, isn't it?

Don't do it. there's no need for it. It's completely unnecessary.
Cheers.

It isn't Eckankar, Sean. Or even Eckankar. It's about dealing with anything that claims to be about this sort of thing without losing your mind over it.

I post to Etznab about Eckankar because he's an ECKist and very defensive about it while at the same time going "round and 'round about everything you've put in Google Drive. That's the curiosity. How anyone can do both, be both at the same time.

You're both crazy. Both you and he. But each a different kind. And defensive about it. But of course that's natural.

Do you think I want to pull your triggers 'til you explode or Etznab clams up in his shell? That's not what I post here for. And don't bother jumping on that last sentence. We've all seen the show. It's the same every time.

With you barely hanging on to sanity and Etznab barely hanging on to reality it's not surprising that this is the last place either of you has to do your thing.

Etznab

2022-04-15 19:33:42 UTC

That's curious "fife" because I have never seen you address eckankar with ontology and epistemology lines or in regard to justifying your own past and current beliefs here ... and it's been years and years so far.
What are your beliefs besides you opine eztnab is a pain in your neck - period - for years possibly decades now?
Would you be so kind to show him and I and future readers here how to question Eckankar and it's ontology and epistemology and describe your own beliefs are of Eckankar and what have you decided is the truth about all this??????????
THANKS IN ADVANCE ..... Seaniekins
PS
You might go the whole hog and tell us what you believe about Harold, and Twitchell, and Marman and Matt Sharpe while you're at it.

fife the forum is for whatever i choose to make it, from one day to the next....
you say this to me --- Quit worrying about what other people are doing and stop washing your brain. No one's got a brainwash that's going to make you happy. You've got to make yourself happy or happy is never going to happen for you.
after you said this to etznab ...-- Pissing down everyone's neck every time you post just pisses people off and makes them want to come after you. It's got nothing to do with your veracity.
PHYSICIAN HEAL THYSELF
aka PRACTICE WHAT YOU PREACH FELLA.
(your hypocrisy and denial are showing --- ROFL )
have another go at understanding what i said before, or ignore it.
frankly, i don't really care either way. life's a series of choices. i think. :-)

Oh dear. why is it so hard to comprehend?
You say it "isn't an instructional forum" while you give instructions to others.
Me I asked a question/s, I asked you to make sense in what you were saying to etznab ... it was not an instruction on how to think or do.
You instructed etznab to use ontology/epist .... I asked you to give an example of that in practice. geez man .... you're plain disconnected here.
You're telling me to "Quit worrying about what other people are doing and stop washing your brain." while you keep telling etznab what to do and not do ... you have been doing that for YEARS MAN ..... that is what you do all the time.
so what is your reasons for not practicing what you preach? Do you have any?
what is with the obsession over what eztnab does or say?
are you your brothers keeper ?
sigh
and this comment -- "But everyone who posts here either is or was in Eckankar or some sort of personal self-discovery. So I don't think it's a false assumption to believe there's still some interest in that. "
is completely disconnected from anything I was addressing in this thread.. you were addressing how much etznab pisses EVERYONE OFFF ... everyone?
you're like MARMAN ..... insist on always talking for everyone else .... your boundaries are leaking fife. you do not speak for everyone.
you still have not done what i requested .... give an example of using ontology / epistemology to describe what eckakanar is and how it works what it means TO YOU ....
Nope you can't answer that. Can you?
you do not talk about eckankar here. you distract and goof off on unrelated personal stuff. whatever, you can use a.r.e. anyway you want .. that's YOUR choice.
but everyone gets to see what you say and make up their own minds about everything you say and do. me, i am just an occasional onlooker here these days.
no biggy. but i am not responsible for what anyone does or says. that's all on them .... ;-)
cheers sean

Epistemology is the theory of knowledge. It breaks down into three main categories. Truth, belief, and justification. Ontology is the branch of metaphysics that deals with the nature of being. Can I discuss them? Certainly. Of course. I thought the first, being what it is, Might be right up Etznab's alley and something useful for him to explore. But since you've shown no interest, and in fact nothing but enmity, towards both for three years why in the world would I think I could discuss them with you?
Are you working up to another meltdown? Don't on my account.
"The world is okay but people are useless, rotten, vile, awful. All of them. There's no hope." That's the way all your meltdowns usually end, isn't it?
Don't do it. there's no need for it. It's completely unnecessary.
Cheers.
It isn't Eckankar, Sean. Or even Eckankar. It's about dealing with anything that claims to be about this sort of thing without losing your mind over it.
I post to Etznab about Eckankar because he's an ECKist and very defensive about it while at the same time going "round and 'round about everything you've put in Google Drive. That's the curiosity. How anyone can do both, be both at the same time.
You're both crazy. Both you and he. But each a different kind. And defensive about it. But of course that's natural.
Do you think I want to pull your triggers 'til you explode or Etznab clams up in his shell? That's not what I post here for. And don't bother jumping on that last sentence. We've all seen the show. It's the same every time.
With you barely hanging on to sanity and Etznab barely hanging on to reality it's not surprising that this is the last place either of you has to do your thing.

Your writing looks a lot like that of Kinpa. Telling other people what they mean, and when they disagree and try to set you straight, then you trash them personally and make up more things that aren't true.

I think oftentimes you and Kinpa write like control freaks. You don't like the truth about Eckankar history, at least Kinpa can't handle discussing plagiarism and fake masters without what you yourself call a meltdown. And the same goes for you when others ask for information about what you believe.

Henosis Sage

2022-04-16 01:31:47 UTC

That's curious "fife" because I have never seen you address eckankar with ontology and epistemology lines or in regard to justifying your own past and current beliefs here ... and it's been years and years so far.
What are your beliefs besides you opine eztnab is a pain in your neck - period - for years possibly decades now?
Would you be so kind to show him and I and future readers here how to question Eckankar and it's ontology and epistemology and describe your own beliefs are of Eckankar and what have you decided is the truth about all this??????????
THANKS IN ADVANCE ..... Seaniekins
PS
You might go the whole hog and tell us what you believe about Harold, and Twitchell, and Marman and Matt Sharpe while you're at it.

fife the forum is for whatever i choose to make it, from one day to the next....
you say this to me --- Quit worrying about what other people are doing and stop washing your brain. No one's got a brainwash that's going to make you happy. You've got to make yourself happy or happy is never going to happen for you.
after you said this to etznab ...-- Pissing down everyone's neck every time you post just pisses people off and makes them want to come after you. It's got nothing to do with your veracity.
PHYSICIAN HEAL THYSELF
aka PRACTICE WHAT YOU PREACH FELLA.
(your hypocrisy and denial are showing --- ROFL )
have another go at understanding what i said before, or ignore it.
frankly, i don't really care either way. life's a series of choices. i think. :-)

Oh dear. why is it so hard to comprehend?
You say it "isn't an instructional forum" while you give instructions to others.
Me I asked a question/s, I asked you to make sense in what you were saying to etznab ... it was not an instruction on how to think or do.
You instructed etznab to use ontology/epist .... I asked you to give an example of that in practice. geez man .... you're plain disconnected here.
You're telling me to "Quit worrying about what other people are doing and stop washing your brain." while you keep telling etznab what to do and not do ... you have been doing that for YEARS MAN ..... that is what you do all the time.
so what is your reasons for not practicing what you preach? Do you have any?
what is with the obsession over what eztnab does or say?
are you your brothers keeper ?
sigh
and this comment -- "But everyone who posts here either is or was in Eckankar or some sort of personal self-discovery. So I don't think it's a false assumption to believe there's still some interest in that. "
is completely disconnected from anything I was addressing in this thread.. you were addressing how much etznab pisses EVERYONE OFFF ... everyone?
you're like MARMAN ..... insist on always talking for everyone else .... your boundaries are leaking fife. you do not speak for everyone.
you still have not done what i requested .... give an example of using ontology / epistemology to describe what eckakanar is and how it works what it means TO YOU ....
Nope you can't answer that. Can you?
you do not talk about eckankar here. you distract and goof off on unrelated personal stuff. whatever, you can use a.r.e. anyway you want .. that's YOUR choice.
but everyone gets to see what you say and make up their own minds about everything you say and do. me, i am just an occasional onlooker here these days.
no biggy. but i am not responsible for what anyone does or says. that's all on them .... ;-)
cheers sean

Your writing looks a lot like that of Kinpa. Telling other people what they mean, and when they disagree and try to set you straight, then you trash them personally and make up more things that aren't true.
I think oftentimes you and Kinpa write like control freaks. You don't like the truth about Eckankar history, at least Kinpa can't handle discussing plagiarism and fake masters without what you yourself call a meltdown. And the same goes for you when others ask for information about what you believe.

REGARDING FIFE QUOTE -- "You're both crazy. Both you and he. "

I think this might be his version of how to win friends and influence people? <smile>

This is very true for me QUOTE ETZNAB:
"Telling other people what they mean, and when they disagree and try to set you straight, then you trash them personally and make up more things that aren't true. I think oftentimes you and Kinpa write like control freaks."

I'd say very very frustrated Control Freaks ..... maybe they are the crazy ones here? JR (aka Opus dei etc etc) sure is

AND fucking nasty to boot!

Etznab

2022-04-16 02:13:15 UTC

That's curious "fife" because I have never seen you address eckankar with ontology and epistemology lines or in regard to justifying your own past and current beliefs here ... and it's been years and years so far.
What are your beliefs besides you opine eztnab is a pain in your neck - period - for years possibly decades now?
Would you be so kind to show him and I and future readers here how to question Eckankar and it's ontology and epistemology and describe your own beliefs are of Eckankar and what have you decided is the truth about all this??????????
THANKS IN ADVANCE ..... Seaniekins
PS
You might go the whole hog and tell us what you believe about Harold, and Twitchell, and Marman and Matt Sharpe while you're at it.

fife the forum is for whatever i choose to make it, from one day to the next....
you say this to me --- Quit worrying about what other people are doing and stop washing your brain. No one's got a brainwash that's going to make you happy. You've got to make yourself happy or happy is never going to happen for you.
after you said this to etznab ...-- Pissing down everyone's neck every time you post just pisses people off and makes them want to come after you. It's got nothing to do with your veracity.
PHYSICIAN HEAL THYSELF
aka PRACTICE WHAT YOU PREACH FELLA.
(your hypocrisy and denial are showing --- ROFL )
have another go at understanding what i said before, or ignore it.
frankly, i don't really care either way. life's a series of choices. i think. :-)

Oh dear. why is it so hard to comprehend?
You say it "isn't an instructional forum" while you give instructions to others.
Me I asked a question/s, I asked you to make sense in what you were saying to etznab ... it was not an instruction on how to think or do.
You instructed etznab to use ontology/epist .... I asked you to give an example of that in practice. geez man .... you're plain disconnected here.
You're telling me to "Quit worrying about what other people are doing and stop washing your brain." while you keep telling etznab what to do and not do ... you have been doing that for YEARS MAN ..... that is what you do all the time.
so what is your reasons for not practicing what you preach? Do you have any?
what is with the obsession over what eztnab does or say?
are you your brothers keeper ?
sigh
and this comment -- "But everyone who posts here either is or was in Eckankar or some sort of personal self-discovery. So I don't think it's a false assumption to believe there's still some interest in that. "
is completely disconnected from anything I was addressing in this thread.. you were addressing how much etznab pisses EVERYONE OFFF ... everyone?
you're like MARMAN ..... insist on always talking for everyone else .... your boundaries are leaking fife. you do not speak for everyone.
you still have not done what i requested .... give an example of using ontology / epistemology to describe what eckakanar is and how it works what it means TO YOU ....
Nope you can't answer that. Can you?
you do not talk about eckankar here. you distract and goof off on unrelated personal stuff. whatever, you can use a.r.e. anyway you want .. that's YOUR choice.
but everyone gets to see what you say and make up their own minds about everything you say and do. me, i am just an occasional onlooker here these days.
no biggy. but i am not responsible for what anyone does or says. that's all on them .... ;-)
cheers sean

Your writing looks a lot like that of Kinpa. Telling other people what they mean, and when they disagree and try to set you straight, then you trash them personally and make up more things that aren't true.
I think oftentimes you and Kinpa write like control freaks. You don't like the truth about Eckankar history, at least Kinpa can't handle discussing plagiarism and fake masters without what you yourself call a meltdown. And the same goes for you when others ask for information about what you believe.

REGARDING FIFE QUOTE -- "You're both crazy. Both you and he. "
I think this might be his version of how to win friends and influence people? <smile>
"Telling other people what they mean, and when they disagree and try to set you straight, then you trash them personally and make up more things that aren't true. I think oftentimes you and Kinpa write like control freaks."
I'd say very very frustrated Control Freaks ..... maybe they are the crazy ones here? JR (aka Opus dei etc etc) sure is
AND fucking nasty to boot!

Marman, Kinpa, Fife appear to be control freaks to me. Trying to control the narrative of the old Eckankar and overlooking the new truths almost completely in favor of the old imaginary beliefs. IMO Eckankar has to change. Has to get with the times and get real. Well, why can't Eckankar tell the old and the new together? The fictions and the facts side by side? I mean, isn't that what Harold TRIED to do in the 1980s right after he became the new leader? Right after him and Marman found a "growing list" of plagiarisms THAT MARMAN THOUGHT DIDN'T LOOK GOOD AND HAROLD WASN'T HAPPY ABOUT? Why did they stoptalking about the facts and the fictions side by side and illustrating a more complete and accurate history? BECAUSE OTHER PEOPLE BESIDES THEM MIGHT THINK IT DOESN"T LOOK GOOD? OR BECAUSE OTHER PEOPLE MIGHT ALSO BECOME UNHAPPY?

What did Fife say about me defending Eckankar? Let's qualify that to defending the actual historical true and verifiable history (vs. fictions) about Eckankar? It has to move forward on a path of truth because less people are going to buy the old tall tales written / copied by Paul Twitchell and regurgitated by Yeba Deba Doo's.

So I say keep the stories. Keep the plagiarisms and copied material, but qualify it. Don't try to cover it up by saying it came from eck masters accessible in the imagination only. I think this is the point people don't get because they are too busy projecting their insecure fears onto others so they can take on the Boogeyman. Like, it's David Lane, it's Sean, it's Etznab and all the other Eckists and former Eckists of this group who refused to take the fictions hook, line and sinker. Put the facts and fictions side by side because that is the more complete story, the more complete history. It is the only way to clarify what is what. IMO the people refusing to speak the truth are what is holding Eckankar back. Fake masters? I say talk about it. Admit it regularly and take on those who want to push the old fictions for fact. Don't be afraid by religious leaders, or discussion group trolls pushing for the old eckankar brand. Give them what they can't stand until they come around to accepting it. The plain truth.

Henosis Sage

2022-04-16 10:20:59 UTC

That's curious "fife" because I have never seen you address eckankar with ontology and epistemology lines or in regard to justifying your own past and current beliefs here ... and it's been years and years so far.
What are your beliefs besides you opine eztnab is a pain in your neck - period - for years possibly decades now?
Would you be so kind to show him and I and future readers here how to question Eckankar and it's ontology and epistemology and describe your own beliefs are of Eckankar and what have you decided is the truth about all this??????????
THANKS IN ADVANCE ..... Seaniekins
PS
You might go the whole hog and tell us what you believe about Harold, and Twitchell, and Marman and Matt Sharpe while you're at it.

fife the forum is for whatever i choose to make it, from one day to the next....
you say this to me --- Quit worrying about what other people are doing and stop washing your brain. No one's got a brainwash that's going to make you happy. You've got to make yourself happy or happy is never going to happen for you.
after you said this to etznab ...-- Pissing down everyone's neck every time you post just pisses people off and makes them want to come after you. It's got nothing to do with your veracity.
PHYSICIAN HEAL THYSELF
aka PRACTICE WHAT YOU PREACH FELLA.
(your hypocrisy and denial are showing --- ROFL )
have another go at understanding what i said before, or ignore it.
frankly, i don't really care either way. life's a series of choices. i think. :-)

Oh dear. why is it so hard to comprehend?
You say it "isn't an instructional forum" while you give instructions to others.
Me I asked a question/s, I asked you to make sense in what you were saying to etznab ... it was not an instruction on how to think or do.
You instructed etznab to use ontology/epist .... I asked you to give an example of that in practice. geez man .... you're plain disconnected here.
You're telling me to "Quit worrying about what other people are doing and stop washing your brain." while you keep telling etznab what to do and not do ... you have been doing that for YEARS MAN ..... that is what you do all the time.
so what is your reasons for not practicing what you preach? Do you have any?
what is with the obsession over what eztnab does or say?
are you your brothers keeper ?
sigh
and this comment -- "But everyone who posts here either is or was in Eckankar or some sort of personal self-discovery. So I don't think it's a false assumption to believe there's still some interest in that. "
is completely disconnected from anything I was addressing in this thread.. you were addressing how much etznab pisses EVERYONE OFFF ... everyone?
you're like MARMAN ..... insist on always talking for everyone else .... your boundaries are leaking fife. you do not speak for everyone.
you still have not done what i requested .... give an example of using ontology / epistemology to describe what eckakanar is and how it works what it means TO YOU ....
Nope you can't answer that. Can you?
you do not talk about eckankar here. you distract and goof off on unrelated personal stuff. whatever, you can use a.r.e. anyway you want .. that's YOUR choice.
but everyone gets to see what you say and make up their own minds about everything you say and do. me, i am just an occasional onlooker here these days.
no biggy. but i am not responsible for what anyone does or says. that's all on them .... ;-)
cheers sean

Your writing looks a lot like that of Kinpa. Telling other people what they mean, and when they disagree and try to set you straight, then you trash them personally and make up more things that aren't true.
I think oftentimes you and Kinpa write like control freaks. You don't like the truth about Eckankar history, at least Kinpa can't handle discussing plagiarism and fake masters without what you yourself call a meltdown. And the same goes for you when others ask for information about what you believe.

Marman, Kinpa, Fife appear to be control freaks to me. Trying to control the narrative of the old Eckankar and overlooking the new truths almost completely in favor of the old imaginary beliefs. IMO Eckankar has to change. Has to get with the times and get real. Well, why can't Eckankar tell the old and the new together? The fictions and the facts side by side? I mean, isn't that what Harold TRIED to do in the 1980s right after he became the new leader? Right after him and Marman found a "growing list" of plagiarisms THAT MARMAN THOUGHT DIDN'T LOOK GOOD AND HAROLD WASN'T HAPPY ABOUT? Why did they stoptalking about the facts and the fictions side by side and illustrating a more complete and accurate history? BECAUSE OTHER PEOPLE BESIDES THEM MIGHT THINK IT DOESN"T LOOK GOOD? OR BECAUSE OTHER PEOPLE MIGHT ALSO BECOME UNHAPPY?
What did Fife say about me defending Eckankar? Let's qualify that to defending the actual historical true and verifiable history (vs. fictions) about Eckankar? It has to move forward on a path of truth because less people are going to buy the old tall tales written / copied by Paul Twitchell and regurgitated by Yeba Deba Doo's.
So I say keep the stories. Keep the plagiarisms and copied material, but qualify it. Don't try to cover it up by saying it came from eck masters accessible in the imagination only. I think this is the point people don't get because they are too busy projecting their insecure fears onto others so they can take on the Boogeyman. Like, it's David Lane, it's Sean, it's Etznab and all the other Eckists and former Eckists of this group who refused to take the fictions hook, line and sinker. Put the facts and fictions side by side because that is the more complete story, the more complete history. It is the only way to clarify what is what. IMO the people refusing to speak the truth are what is holding Eckankar back. Fake masters? I say talk about it. Admit it regularly and take on those who want to push the old fictions for fact. Don't be afraid by religious leaders, or discussion group trolls pushing for the old eckankar brand. Give them what they can't stand until they come around to accepting it. The plain truth.

Eckankar tell the truth? about fake eck masters? You radical you!!

Did fife once say catholic christian saints are the same as eck masters?

That's bollocks. All the saints are/were real living people. There is a process after the fact to declare someone a saint after they died. That's completely different to twitchells made up boogey men. then putting words into their mouths written in books by other people altogether.

that is the truth in need of telling imo. it's not rocket science.

look at sant mat and the sufis and sikhs ... they have past masters and saints too. all of them were real living people. so are the hindu gurus .... with some exceptions back into the deep past eg arjuna etc. gosh even the jews had a lineage of real people, so do the muslims.

AND fife also takes umbrage at you not believing all the articles of faith in eckankar. that's a ridiculous straw man. a setup up.

Many a devout practicing Jew is an atheist .. work that one out fife. lol

Many a Catholic do not actually believe Jesus was the "son of god" either, they still go to church and take communion. Some Priests don't even believe jesus was god. They are good practicing catholics anyway.

and how many millions of catholics use condoms, take the pill and get abortions all over the world ... all good believing catholics, and christians and other faiths.

but fife has his nose out of joint because etznab doesn't believe every thing taught and written about in Eckankar is True?

Oh my, FFS this is such a silly shallow [unexplored] position to hold. it's not an insult to etznab. it's foolish imo.

and that idiot kinpa falsely accused etznab of not being a member .... despite etznab saying he was. that's not an insult either. that's just plain dumb and stupid.

but that's what gets put out here seemingly forever. the jokes on them.

next comes jr [opus dei] crying in his socks we are Jesuit spies trying undermine eckankar and peoples free speech. thats what crazy really sounds like.

anyway, whatever. ;-)

Henosis Sage

2022-04-16 01:23:23 UTC