The Key to Eckankar. Rebazar Tarzs? or plagiarism and paraphrase?

[Etznab]

Some of my findings, so far, about Paul Twitchell's book, The Key to Eckankar.

The Key to Eckankar is about 43 pages of text. Similarities (near or exact) between text for The Key to Eckankar and writings of Neville Goddard appear on, or about pp. 5-6; the writings of Talbot Mundy, p. 6; Neville Goddard pp. 6-7; Thomas Troward, pp. 8-9; Talbot Mundy, p. 14; Neville Goddard, p. 17; Joel Goldsmith, p. 19; Talbot Mundy, pp. 23-25, 27; Scientology Dynamics, p. 27; Neville Goddard, p. 28; Scientology Axioms, p. 37; Joel Goldsmith, pp. 40-42.

This is a list of the books and links.

The Power of Awareness, Neville Goddard (1952)

http://ia600202.us.archive.org/11/items/ThePowerOfAwareness/Neville_ThePowerOfAwareness.pdf

Old Ugly Face, Talbot Mundy (1940)

http://arthursclassicnovels.com/mundy/ugfa10.html

Lectures on Mental Science, Thomas Troward (1909)

http://www.archive.org/stream/edinburghlecture00trow#page/n7/mode/2up

Scientology, Hubbard (1950s?)

http://learn.scientology.org/wis4_12.htm

Practicing the Presence, Joel S. Goldsmith (1958)

http://www.scribd.com/doc/82916572/Practicing-the-Presence-of-God-Joel-S-Goldsmith

The Key to Eckankar ("1968")

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B0KObtCQpPKbZDhiNjhkZmQtNjI5Yy00ZTZlLWJjZDYtYjY3Yzg1Y2I4Mzhj/edit?pli=1

Today I finished illustrating some similarities (near and exact) between Paul Twitchell (1968) and Joel Goldsmith (1958). The length includes about fourteen paragraphs from The Key to Eckankar and I'm not quite sure how to begin sharing them here. Maybe I can do it paragraph by paragraph.

I will begin with quoting The Key to Eckankar (in which case Rebazar Tarzs is reportedly the speaker; so the text mostly appears in quotes), followed by the approximate page numbers (for TKTE). After that I will illustrate corresponding quotes by Goldsmith, as is.

TKTE - p. 19:

"We only have to prove this in one direction and we shall have it proved in every direction. The whole secret lies in the word heart, or what we call consciousness. An intellectual knowledge of the fact that God is All is of no value. The only value any truth has is in the degree of its realization. Truth fully realized via ECKANKAR is spiritual consciousness. If we are conscious of the presence of the Lord, if we are conscious of the activity of God, then so we will see all of life through that understanding."

PTP - Goldsmith (2nd paragraph, p. 19)

The whole secret lies in the word "consciousness". An intellectual knowledge of the fact that God is all is of no value. The only value any truth has is in the degree of its realization. Truth realized is spiritual consciousness. If we are conscious of the presence of the Lord, if we are conscious of the activity of God, then so it is unto us.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/82916572/Practicing-the-Presence-of-God-Joel-S-Goldsmith

TKTE - p. 40

"Spiritual consciousness is attained through the activity of truth in consciousness. Dwelling on scriptural quotations or statements of truth helps to spiritualize thought. The more truth we read and hear, the more truth is active in our consciousness. We learn to abide in the world by putting truth into ourselves. This is the first step on the way to God."

PTP - p. 20

Spiritual consciousness is attained through the activity of truth in consciousness. Dwelling on scriptural quotations or statements of truth helps to spiritualize thought. The more truth that we read and hear, the more active is truth in our consciousness. Thus we learn to abide in the Word. This is the first step on the Way.

TKTE - p. 40

"The second step cannot be taken unless the first step has been mastered, that is, knowing the letter of truth. All the years we spend in reading truth, attending services, lectures, and classes are fruitful in leading us to that point where inspiration flows from within our own being. This inspiration, however, usually comes only after a thorough grounding in the letter of truth."

PTP - p. 21

The second step, which leads to a state of consciousness where we are receptive and responsive to the still small voice, cannot be taken, however, unless the first step has been mastered, that is, knowing the letter of truth. All the years that a person has spent in reading truth, hearing truth, thinking truth, attending church services, lectures, or classes are fruitful in leading him to that point where inspiration flows from within his own being. This inspiration, however, usually comes only after a thorough grounding in the letter of truth.

TKTE - p. 40

"Yaubl Sacabi told me long ago, 'Let my spirit dwell in you. And so shall the SUGMAD be exalted so that you will bear the harvest of good deeds.'
"To live in this truth, to abide in the Word, is to bear the harvest of all things in the richest manner: that is, to live harmoniously in the spiritual senses. But if we forget to live in the Word, to abide in It, and let It live in us, we become as the branch of a tree that is cut off and withers away.
"How can we live in the Word if we do not know It? We must know the Truth. We must learn what the correct letter of truth is. Let us have a principle with which to work, and let us stand on this principle, until the moment comes when we feel that spiritual awareness within us is realized. Then we shall know that we have attained the spirit of truth, the consciousness of truth, which is the Word of the SUGMAD and is power. Anyone with a sufficient desire for a realization of God can achieve that realization - the grace of God will guarantee it.

PTP - p. 21

Jesus tells us to let "my words abide in you. ... Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit." To live in that truth, to abide in that Word, is to bear fruit richly, that is, to live harmoniously, spiritual lives. But if we forget to live in the Word, to abide in it, and let it abide in us, we become as branches that are cut off and wither. How can we abide in this Word if we do not know it? We must know the truth. We must learn that the correct letter of truth is. Let us have a specific principle with which to work and let us stand on that principle, until the moment comes when we feel that spiritual awareness within us, which is realization. Then we shall know that we have attained the spirit of truth, the consciouness of truth, which is the Word of God and is power. Anyone with a sufficient desire for a realization of God will guarantee it.

[Keep in mind Joel S. Goldsmith's book was called Practicing The Presence and that another phrase he used (and a book by that same name) was called The Infinite Way.]

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.religion.eckankar/Wle6bykppIc/SjghdLsP_t8J

... continuing from earlier post

TKTE - p. 41

"It is possible to know all the truth found in the letter of truth and still be the branch that withers away, unless we live so completely in the Word and let this Word live in us so that the Very Spirit dwells in us-the Spirit of God in man. No man is devoid of It, but most of us are as unaware of It as we are of the blood coursing through our veins. God is with us, God's presence fills all space, the Spirit of God dwells in us. But how many have felt that presence? It is talked about, prayed for, theorized over, and sermonized about; but It is not experienced! It is the conscious awareness, the actual feeling or realization of the Presence, which is necessary."

PTP - pp. 21-22

It is possible to know all the truth found in the letter of truth and still be a branch that withereth, until we so abide in the Word and let this Word abide in us that the very Spirit of God. There is a Spirit in man. There actually is a Spirit - the Spirit of God in man. No man is devoid of it, but most of us are as unaware of it as we are of the blood coursing through our bodies. God is with us. God's presence fills all space; the Spirit of God dwells in us. But how many people have felt that Presence? It is talked about, prayed about, theorized about, and sermonized about; but It is not experienced. It is the conscious awareness, the actual feeling or realization of the Presence which is necessary.

TKTE - p. 41

"In most religious teachings, we are told that God is everywhere, but this is not true in the sense of prevalence. If the Spirit of God were everywhere, all persons would be free, healthy, wealthy, independent, joyous, and harmonious. The Spirit of God is present only where It is Realized. This is why we are all trying to become channels for Spirit."

PTP - p. 22

In most religious teachings, we are told that the Spirit God is everywhere, but that is not true. If the Spirit of the Lord were everywhere, everybody would be free, healthy, wealthy, independent, joyous, and harmonious. No. the Spirit of the Lord is present only where it is realized.

TKTE - p. 41

"Unless we feel the actual presence of God, then as far as we are concerned, we do not have the realization of this Spirit. It is like electricity (which is everywhere, just as the Spirit of God is), but electricity is of little use or value to anyone unless it is connected in some way for a particular use. So it is with the Spirit of God. It is everywhere in an absolute, spiritual sense, but It is only effective in our experience to the extent to which It is realized."

PTP - p. 22-23

Unless we feel the actual presence of God, then, as far as we are concerned, we do not have this Spirit. Again, it is a case of rolling up the window shades, or it is like saying that electricity is everywhere. That is true. Electricity is everywhere just as the Spirit of God is everywhere. Electricity, however, will be of no value to us, unless it is connected in some way for our particular use. So it is with this Spirit of God. It is everywhere, in an absolute, spiritual sense, but It is only effective in our experience to the extent to which It is realized.

TKTE - pp. 41-42

"Anyone following the path of ECKANKAR cannot go through a day satisfied that he has read some truth in the morning or that he is going to hear some truth in the afternoon or evening. There must be a conscious realization of truth going on all the time. This does not mean he is going to neglect his human duties and activities. It means that he is going to train himself to have some area in his consciousness always active in truth. Whether we look at the forms of nature as trees, flowers, or oceans, or whether we are meeting people, we find some measure of God in each experience. We train ourselves to behold the presence and activity of God in everything around us and live within the Word."

PTP - p. 23

The student of spiritual wisdom cannot go through his day, satisfied that he has read some truth in the morning, or that he is going to hear some truth in the afternoon or evening. There must be a conscious activity of truth going on all the time. That does not mean that we neglect our human duties and activities; it means that we train himself to have some area of consciousness always active in truth. Whether we look out at forms of nature such as trees, flowers, or oceans, or whether we are meeting people, we find some measure of God in each experience. We train ourselves to behold the presence and activity of God in everything around us and to abide in the Word.

TKTE - p. 42

"So it is important to learn all that we can about the correct letter of truth, to understand every principle and then to practice these principles until we go from an intellectual knowledge to an inner awareness of them. We build our foundation on specific principles. Some of these principles are found in all scriptures, but mainly in the Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad, the Way of the Eternal."

PTP - pp. 23-24

It is important to learn all that we can about the correct letter of truth, to understand every principle, and then to practice these principles until we go from an intellectual knowledge to an inner awareness of them. We build our foundation on specific principles. Some of these principles are found in scripture: Christian, Hebrew, and Oriental. Some of them are not found in any written form, but nevertheless, they are known to all the mystics of the world. The further we go in this work, the more necessary it is that we know every one of these principles. They are the foundation of our understanding and they must become so much a part of us that when we are faced with a problem, we do not have to think consciously of any of them.

TKTE - p. 41

"The deeper we go into this work, the more necessary it is that we know every one of these principles. They are the foundation of our understanding, and they must become so much a part of us that when we are faced with a problem we do not have to consciously think of them.
"Someday I will give these principles to you for publication. An understanding of the principles of spiritual living - that is, a knowledge of the correct letter of truth - is necessary. That is the foundation upon which we build, so that we understand where we are going and why, and what our relationship is to God. It is necessary that we know these things so that we do not stumble in a blind faith that at some time or another may desert us. We need to know the correct letter of truth so that we do not find ourselves in a state of mental chaos, relying on one thing today and another tomorrow, never coming to an understanding of God - the nature and character of God, the nature of God's law, and the nature of God's being."

PTP - p. 25

An understanding of the principles of spiritual living, that is, a knowledge of the correct letter of truth, is necessary. That is the foundation upon which we build, so that we understand where we are going and why, and what our relationship to God and our fellowman is. It is necessary that we know these things so that we do not stumble into a blind faith that at some time or another may desert us. We need to know the correct letter of truth in order that we do not find ourselves in a state of mental chaos, relying on one thing today and on another tomorrow, never coming to an understanding of that which is. A spiritual life cannot be built without an understanding of God - the nature and character of God, the nature of God's law, and the nature of God's being.

TKTE - p. 42

"It is possible for anyone to change the trend of his life, not by hearing or reading truth, but by making it an active part of his consciousness in daily experience, until it becomes a habit every moment of the day, instead of an occasional thought. Let God operate in the consciousness morning, noon, and night until the actual awareness comes gradually. Then we make the transition from being hearers of the Word to being doers of the Word. Then we shall be living in the world and shall gather in the harvest of Souls."

PTP - p. 26

It is possible for anyone to change the trend of his life, not by hearing or reading truth, but by making it an active part of his consciousness in daily experience, until it becomes a habit every moment of the day, instead of an occasional thought. Let these principles operate in the consciousness morning, noon, and night, until gradually the actual awareness comes. Then we make the transition from being hearers of the Word to being doers of the Word. Then we shall be abiding in the Word and shall bear fruit richly. [... .]

***

OK that's about the best I can do right now for the similarities between Twitchell and Goldsmith that I've found so far. I have them all in a different format, and where the paragraphs are not broken up, that might be possible to share in the future. I also have examples from the other authors listed on this thread. Bear in mind I am still researching Paul Twitchell's book The Key to Eckankar and may not have found all similarities (near and exact) to date when the book (or what Rebazar Tarzs reportedly said) is compared with other authors and their books. Most of them copyrighted.

There is also Harold Klemp's Introduction for the 2003 version of TKTE that I want to append to this thread. Along with what he had to say about Rebazar Tarzs.

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.religion.eckankar/Wle6bykppIc/v_i6BDdTBjkJ

"Spiritual consciousness is attained through the activity of truth in consciousness. Dwelling on scriptural quotations or statements of truth helps to spiritualize thought. The more truth we read and hear, the more truth is active in our consciousness. We learn to abide in the world by putting truth into ourselves. This is the first step on the way to God."

Based on: The Key to Eckankar - Twitchell

"Spiritual consciousness is attained through the activity of truth in consciousness. Dwelling on scriptural quotations or statements of truth helps to spiritualize thought. The more truth that we read and hear, the more active is truth in our consciousness. Thus we learn to abide in the Word. This is the first step on the Way."

Based on: Practicing The Presence - Goldsmith

[Note: Goldsmith says: "Thus we learn to abide in the Word." where Eckankar says: "We learn to abide in the world ... ." Typo???]

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.religion.eckankar/nD2iq5AOBzc/4T8Ss0btEFEJ

Paul Twitchell and Harold Klemp both made remarks about Rebazar Tarzs. Paul, reportedly taking down Rebazar's dictation and Harold Klemp further remarking about

(1) the "conversation" "His [Rebazar Tarzs'] conversation with Paul ..."]

and

(2) the "dialogue" ["... the dialogue between Rebazar Tarzs and Paul ... ."]

and Harold also (in some respects)

(3) attempting to explain what Rebazar Tarzs meant.

On this newsgroup (and in so many words) it was suggested, even stated, that plagiarisms do not discount the verity of Eck Masters. Iow, that plagiarisms (by the founder of Eckankar, that were not exactly words from Eck Masters, but rather words copied from library books and credited to certain Eck Masters, etc.) have as if nothing to do with whether Eck Masters are real, or not. It almost looks to me as if some people would rather like to sweep the study and illustration for a "growing list" of plagiarisms out of the way and off of this newsgroup. Although this action is not entirely certain, what is certain are the number of personal "attacks" and ridicule, etc. of those choosing to bring up and maintain a discussion and deeper study of this topic.

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.religion.eckankar/nD2iq5AOBzc/vlRM7X8Eke8J

Quoting from FAQ section of official Eckankar website:

"Is Eckankar a cult?

"No.

"The ECK teachings are based on compassion, respect, personal responsibility, and giving others freedom. It is against spiritual law to push one's beliefs on others or to hold anyone to a spiritual path. [... .]"

http://www.eckankar.org/FAQ/index.html#cult

*********

Comments:

The word "beliefs" has an interesting context here.

"It is against spiritual law to push one's beliefs on others ..."

Question;

"What about belief in Rebazar Tarzs and other Eck Masters? Harold Klemp, the leader of Eckankar (See; The Key to Eckankar) appears to "speak for" Rebazar Tarzs. Is this the truth? Or is this Harold's belief?

Observations:

In his Introduction for Fourth Printing (1985) of The Key to Eckankar, Harold Klemp referenced Rebazar Tarzs. Harold wrote: [...] Rebazar Tarzs says that the individual first has to get "the correct letter of truth" before he can live in the spirit of truth. He tells how this is done. [... .]

(See full Introduction for more insights and context.)
http://tinyurl.com/o2ozxuo

The Key to Eckankar section about "correct letter of truth" is one that very closely resembles the writings in Joel S. Goldsmith's book, Practicing the Presence of God - 1958 Iow, the words "correct letter of truth" appeared years before The Key to Eckankar book came out in 1968.

Some sample quotes (from a much larger section of correspondences covering over a dozen paragraphs in consecutive order) illustrating similarity between the writings of Joel S. Goldsmith and the words of Paul Twitchell and Rebazar Tarzs.

***

"Spiritual consciousness is attained through the activity of truth in consciousness. Dwelling on scriptural quotations or statements of truth helps to spiritualize thought. The more truth we read and hear, the more truth is active in our consciousness. We learn to abide in the world by putting truth into ourselves. This is the first step on the way to God."

Based on: The Key to Eckankar - Twitchell

"Spiritual consciousness is attained through the activity of truth in consciousness. Dwelling on scriptural quotations or statements of truth helps to spiritualize thought. The more truth that we read and hear, the more active is truth in our consciousness. Thus we learn to abide in the Word. This is the first step on the Way."

Based on: Practicing The Presence - Goldsmith

[Note: Goldsmith says: "Thus we learn to abide in the Word." where Eckankar says: "We learn to abide in the world ... ." Typo???]

***

"Yaubl Sacabi told me long ago, 'Let my spirit dwell in you. And so shall the SUGMAD be exalted so that you will bear the harvest of good deeds.'

"To live in this truth, to abide in the Word, is to bear the harvest of all things in the richest manner: that is, to live harmoniously in the spiritual senses. But if we forget to live in the Word, to abide in It, and let It live in us, we become as the branch of a tree that is cut off and withers away."

Based on: The Key to Eckankar - Twitchell

Jesus tells us to let "my words abide in you. ... Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit." To live in that truth, to abide in that Word, is to bear fruit richly, that is, to live harmoniously, spiritual lives. But if we forget to live in the Word, to abide in it, and let it abide in us, we become as branches that are cut off and wither. [...]

Based on: Practicing The Presence - Goldsmith

***

"How can we live in the Word if we do not know It? We must know the Truth. We must learn what the correct letter of truth is. Let us have a principle with which to work, and let us stand on this principle, until the moment comes when we feel that spiritual awareness within us is realized. Then we shall know that we have attained the spirit of truth, the consciousness of truth, which is the Word of the SUGMAD and is power. Anyone with a sufficient desire for a realization of God can achieve that realization - the grace of God will guarantee it."

Based on: The Key to Eckankar - Twitchell

[...] How can we abide in this Word if we do not know it? We must know the truth. We must learn what the correct letter of truth is. Let us have a specific principle with which to work and let us stand on that principle, until the moment comes when we feel that spiritual awareness within us, which is realization. Then we shall know that we have attained the spirit of truth, the consciousness of truth, which is the Word of God and is power. Anyone with a sufficient desire for a realization of God will guarantee it."

Based on: Practicing The Presence - Goldsmith

[Note: All illustrations here should be checked for typos.]

http://www.scribd.com/doc/218780789/82916572-Practicing-the-Presence-of-God-Joel-S-Goldsmith-1

*********

The official Eckankar website has a link about Rebazar Tarzs.

http://www.eckankar.org/Masters/Rebazar/index.html

This link is response to a frequently asked question.

Begin quote ...

Do the ECK Masters really exist?

The ECK Masters are real.

People from all over the world and from all walks of life have had personal experiences with the ECK Masters years before Paul Twitchell brought them to the public eye.

Many people who have never heard of Eckankar recognize ECK Masters from their dreams and other encounters.

Here on the Eckankar Web site, you can read some of these stories and see pictures of some of these ECK Masters.

Better yet, meet them for yourself. That's the real proof for any spiritual seeker.

The book Those Wonderful ECK Masters (link opens in a new window) gives spiritual exercises to help you receive personal guidance from an ECK Master.

... end quote.

http://www.eckankar.org/FAQ/index.html#eckmasters

More comments:

From at least the 1970s - over 40 years ago - Eckankar has received feedback about examples of dubious biographical information surrounding what so many "Eck Masters" reportedly said, or wrote; along with a growing number of plagiarism examples and/or verbatim matches between the Eckankar writings and the writings of other gurus and New Age authors, etc.
HOWEVER, when historical evidence of Eckankar masters is presented in story form, or according to what the Eckankar founder wrote, WHERE are all the examples of paraphrase and plagiarism showing convincing evidence for the very real prospect that Paul Twitchell, or somebody, took from the writings of other authors and used them like a literary device to animate a historical record of Eckankar masters?
It appears to me that a propaganda campaign has been carried forward for a good number of years in which stories that support the belief of "real" Eck masters are promoted, whereas stories and black and white evidence to the contrary is NOT so much promoted.

*********

Quoting from the Eckankar website again:

"The ECK teachings are based on compassion, respect, personal responsibility, and giving others freedom. It is against spiritual law to push one's beliefs on others or to hold anyone to a spiritual path. [... .]"

http://www.eckankar.org/FAQ/index.html#cult

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.religion.eckankar/AEhzOYFzWck/dsFcIwx7KKUJ

More reference links:

https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups&hl=en#!searchin/alt.religion.eckankar/The$20Key$20to$20Eckankar|sort:date/alt.religion.eckankar/ae1tfX28RMk/utNnWx_GSqoJ

https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups&hl=en#!searchin/alt.religion.eckankar/The$20Key$20to$20Eckankar|sort:date/alt.religion.eckankar/C6u9t1O-MpE/OAkXUTY7ns4J

https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups&hl=en#!searchin/alt.religion.eckankar/The$20Key$20to$20Eckankar|sort:date/alt.religion.eckankar/OB416Fe7BmA/Ja3co0ofzbgJ

[m***@verizon.net]

"The ECK teachings are based on compassion, respect, personal responsibility, and giving others freedom."

and should have added..... "and giving credit were credit was due, and presenting fictional characters (i.e. "Eck Masters") as real beings."

[m***@verizon.net]

"The ECK teachings are based on compassion, respect, personal responsibility, and giving others freedom."


and should have added..... "and not giving credit were credit was due, and presenting fictional characters (i.e. "Eck Masters") as real beings."

[Etznab]

Post by m***@verizon.net
"The ECK teachings are based on compassion, respect, personal responsibility, and giving others freedom."
and should have added..... "and not giving credit were credit was due, and presenting fictional characters (i.e. "Eck Masters") as real beings."

IOW presenting what is not true?

[Etznab]

Post by Etznab

Post by m***@verizon.net
"The ECK teachings are based on compassion, respect, personal responsibility, and giving others freedom."
and should have added..... "and not giving credit were credit was due, and presenting fictional characters (i.e. "Eck Masters") as real beings."

IOW presenting what is not true?

Both sources seem to agree.

"Spiritual consciousness is attained through the activity of truth in consciousness."

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.religion.eckankar/Q5NbuPou0dA/UN7sA4gWDwAJ

[fife]

All this whole, giant lot is about using truth to recognize God Realization. Is that what you're doing with it then?

[fife]

According to everything you've posted in this thread, truth can be applied to consciousness until consciousness becomes spiritual consciousness.
Or you can use it to trash consciousness.
Where do you suppose all the opposition, hatred, and enmity in the world comes from? Not from truth but from the application of truth to consciousness, how it's applied, and what the results of those applications are.
Truth isn't justice. Using it to justify results either way is false.

[Etznab]

Post by fife
All this whole, giant lot is about using truth to recognize God Realization. Is that what you're doing with it then?

Fife the framer. But why?

[Tisra Til]

Well, one is subjective truth, and the other is objective truth. Which is why I brought up the question about whether truth and fact are the same.

Subjective truths, like self-realisation and god-realisation cannot be proven to be true to another person who has not experienced it. You can talk about what it is LIKE to another person, and can somewhat give an inkling of what it may be, but not an exact definition, like a mathematical equation.

The other, objective truth, like the mathematical equation, can be directly related to another with directness and precision, with no room for interpretation. It is what it is. A universally objective truth. Or is it a fact?

So, one can look at Eckankar from either side; subjective truths, or objective truths, or facts. Some focus on one; some on the other. Can they be integrated into a single stream, where one does not contradict the other? Subjective truths and objective facts (truths)? With all of the plagiarising from so many sources, I doubt it could: unless all of those sources were saying the same thing about subjective experiences. In which case they would have to have been in "cahoots", teaching the same thing.

Or Paul Twitchell took the essence from all of the different sources, and presented THE whole truth, minus the inessentials. Take your pick.

[Tisra Til]

I have to admit that I think there are a lot of subjective truths in TKTE. That was probably my favorite Eck book. I don't know how many times I went through that one. But to me it didn't matter whether Rebazar Tarz or the Easter Bunny said it. It's the truths it contained that mattered at the time.
I was pretty well versed in the ideas it presented before I read it though. So it was easier to flow with the dialogue. It resonated with me.

[fife]

Etznab. According to everything you've posted in this thread, truth can be applied to consciousness until consciousness becomes spiritual consciousness.
Or you can use it to trash consciousness.
Where do you suppose all the opposition, hatred, and enmity in the world comes from? Not from truth but from the application of truth to consciousness, how it's applied, and what those applications are.
Truth isn't justice. Using it to justify results either way is false.

[Etznab]

Post by fife
Etznab. According to everything you've posted in this thread, truth can be applied to consciousness until consciousness becomes spiritual consciousness.
Or you can use it to trash consciousness.
Where do you suppose all the opposition, hatred, and enmity in the world comes from? Not from truth but from the application of truth to consciousness, how it's applied, and what those applications are.
Truth isn't justice. Using it to justify results either way is false.

Fife the framer. But why?

[Etznab]

Post by Tisra Til
I have to admit that I think there are a lot of subjective truths in TKTE. That was probably my favorite Eck book. I don't know how many times I went through that one. But to me it didn't matter whether Rebazar Tarz or the Easter Bunny said it. It's the truths it contained that mattered at the time.
I was pretty well versed in the ideas it presented before I read it though. So it was easier to flow with the dialogue. It resonated with me.

I really liked that book too. One of my first books and my favorite. I had no idea at the time it didn't come from Rebazar Tarzs, because I believed what Paul wrote. I am wiser now. Now I see it historically and more truthfully because the sources of the text DO matter to me. I would not choose to be so ignorant. Fooled again by Paul Twitchell, or Eckankar. So I do what I can so that WE don't get fooled again!

[Etznab]

Post by Etznab

Post by Tisra Til
I have to admit that I think there are a lot of subjective truths in TKTE. That was probably my favorite Eck book. I don't know how many times I went through that one. But to me it didn't matter whether Rebazar Tarz or the Easter Bunny said it. It's the truths it contained that mattered at the time.
I was pretty well versed in the ideas it presented before I read it though. So it was easier to flow with the dialogue. It resonated with me.

I really liked that book too. One of my first books and my favorite. I had no idea at the time it didn't come from Rebazar Tarzs, because I believed what Paul wrote. I am wiser now. Now I see it historically and more truthfully because the sources of the text DO matter to me. I would not choose to be so ignorant. Fooled again by Paul Twitchell, or Eckankar. So I do what I can so that WE don't get fooled again!
http://youtu.be/ts193VvyDGw

A number of people on the following thread were also not fooled. Judging by their responses.

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.religion.eckankar/ri5BFW_L5fM/RDG7fBu9BgAJ

For example:

"[...] Do you know how many authors in just the two books The Key to Eckankar and Dialogues With The Master were plagiarized by Rebazar Tarzs? Explain that. Explain to me why Rebazar Tarzs steals from people and then has another do his dirty work (the actual writing). [... .]"

[Etznab]

Post by Etznab

Post by Etznab

Post by Tisra Til
I have to admit that I think there are a lot of subjective truths in TKTE. That was probably my favorite Eck book. I don't know how many times I went through that one. But to me it didn't matter whether Rebazar Tarz or the Easter Bunny said it. It's the truths it contained that mattered at the time.
I was pretty well versed in the ideas it presented before I read it though. So it was easier to flow with the dialogue. It resonated with me.

I really liked that book too. One of my first books and my favorite. I had no idea at the time it didn't come from Rebazar Tarzs, because I believed what Paul wrote. I am wiser now. Now I see it historically and more truthfully because the sources of the text DO matter to me. I would not choose to be so ignorant. Fooled again by Paul Twitchell, or Eckankar. So I do what I can so that WE don't get fooled again!
http://youtu.be/ts193VvyDGw

A number of people on the following thread were also not fooled. Judging by their responses.
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.religion.eckankar/ri5BFW_L5fM/RDG7fBu9BgAJ
"[...] Do you know how many authors in just the two books The Key to Eckankar and Dialogues With The Master were plagiarized by Rebazar Tarzs? Explain that. Explain to me why Rebazar Tarzs steals from people and then has another do his dirty work (the actual writing). [... .]"

Not fooled by Doug Marman either.

Doug says that "everything Paul wrote were his words".

Were they really all his words? Including the ones he copied word for word and then put quotation marks as if having come from Rebazar Tarzs?

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.religion.eckankar/b45uR_yynT4/ZWlJ9ipvBgAJ

Paul Twitchell once wrote something about learning to counteract the influence of a negative naturem instead of just reacting to it.

"And to perceive the influence of some negative nature and react to it is not enough. We must learn to counteract it."

- Paul Twitchell, The Spiritual Notebook

Well, reacting to Doug Marman (or others) spinning the truth, IMHO, is not the same as counteracting the influence of their negative nature.

[fife]

"And to perceive the influence of some negative nature and react to it is not enough. We must learn to counteract it."

By developing the other side. I know you think both sides are the same. You've said so many times. "Both sides of the coin" etc.. But they're not. 😇

[fife]

↗
Truth
↘

Truth isn't automatic. Reaction to negativity isn't the development of counteraction. Nor is one the extension of the other.

[fife]

↗
Truth
↘

Truth isn't automatic. Reaction in one direction isn't the development of counteraction in the other. Nor is one the extension of the other.

[fife]

"And to perceive the influence of some negative nature is not enough. We must learn to counteract it."

Your quote. Your choice. What do you think?

[fife]

"And to perceive the influence of some negative nature and react to it is not enough. We must learn to counteract it."

Your quote. Your choice. What do you think?

[fife]

Beating the shit out of your favourite punching bags is a reaction. And that served a purpose. But that's not the other half of the quote. Counteraction. Which takes place on the other side of consciousness. If it were all one sided, only one sided, there'd be no need for the quote and no need to make a distinction. Because there'd be no distinction. Reaction would be all. Everything. And everything would be one sided.

Negative bashing never becomes positive no matter how often, how regularly, how frequently you do and re-do it. A sustainable, positive alternative that you regularly articulate is the alternative, the counteraction. If you don't believe in that, fine. But one sided isn't two sided. It's not all the same thing.

[Etznab]

Post by fife
Beating the shit out of your favourite punching bags is a reaction. And that served a purpose. But that's not the other half of the quote. Counteraction. Which takes place on the other side of consciousness. If it were all one sided, only one sided, there'd be no need for the quote and no need to make a distinction. Because there'd be no distinction. Reaction would be all. Everything. And everything would be one sided.
Negative bashing never becomes positive no matter how often, how regularly, how frequently you do and re-do it. A sustainable, positive alternative that you regularly articulate is the alternative, the counteraction. If you don't believe in that, fine. But one sided isn't two sided. It's not all the same thing.

This link is better because it gives a better context.

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.religion.eckankar/9PDsLllhm38/JmyvUIoLBwAJ

It's not only plagiarism, IMHO.

[fife]

Yep. No question. No doubt. Side-by-side examination of texts shows Paul Twitchell copied other people's work. But the It's not only plagiarism IMHO. part that could be many things, mean many things. What specifically did you have in mind with that statement. What was the particular idea or ideas you had in mind?

[Etznab]

Pseudo (man & woman-made) religion and history.

[Etznab]

Even Paul Twitchell wrote about these and I posted links as well. Paul wrote about what they are and the motives behind them.

[fife]

I've run down, chased down, hunted down, hunted for, searched for, searched for the reasons for, the origins of, the history of, the purpose of, the purpose for, a dream, a few dreams, more than a few dreams in my time. Sure.

But you know, when you've done that for years, decades, you start to realize it's not about the dream it's about the dream hunter. You. What ever the dream, it's less about that and more about the manner, technique, and means that you employ. You start to realize it's less about the dream, any dream, after all they're just dreams aren't they? And you start to realize it's more about yourself, the respect you have for yourself, and why you should have that respect for yourself because (that) is a good thing if it doesn't go haywire. Runnin' down a dream, hunting one down, isn't about a dream it's about the hunter. You. Don't forget that, switch that, lose control, lose you and the respect you have for you, self-respect, by putting the dream first and you not at all.

[Etznab]

Post by fife
I've run down, chased down, hunted down, hunted for, searched for, searched for the reasons for, the origins of, the history of, the purpose of, the purpose for, a dream, a few dreams, more than a few dreams in my time. Sure.
But you know, when you've done that for years, decades, you start to realize it's not about the dream it's about the dream hunter. You. What ever the dream, it's less about that and more about the manner, technique, and means that you employ. You start to realize it's less about the dream, any dream, after all they're just dreams aren't they? And you start to realize it's more about yourself, the respect you have for yourself, and why you should have that respect for yourself because (that) is a good thing if it doesn't go haywire. Runnin' down a dream, hunting one down, isn't about a dream it's about the hunter. You. Don't forget that, switch that, lose control, lose you and the respect you have for you, self-respect, by putting the dream first and you not at all.

Fife. What is wrong with you?

I'm at least the second person in this group that decided you are probably not worth communicating with. The reason? Take a guess.

[fife]

What? I'm talking about myself and my experience. Take it or leave it. It's no skin off anyone's nose.

I have no clue why you'd be upset about the post. Do you have trouble reading magazines? Do you think that everything you read, see, and hear is about you?

I have no idea what you think your issue is with that post or why you should have one.

Did you read Werner's post the other day? "This is a group, not a satsang, not eckankar-light." I see it that way also. Do you see it as something else? As something personal, contrived, limited? Some kind of special box? Don't do that. You'll just upset yourself and twist yourself into a knot.

[fife]

:-) note: last post was in response to Etznab's. Not T.T.'s which was posted while I was typing it.

[fife]

It was a beautiful day, the sun beat down
I had the radio on, I was drivin'
Trees went by, me and Del were singin' little Runaway
I was flyin'

Yeah, runnin' down a dream that never would come to me
Workin' on a mystery, goin' wherever it leads
Runnin' down a dream

It felt so good, like anything was possible
Hit cruise control and rubbed my eyes
The last three days the rain was unstoppable
It was always cold, no sunshine

Yeah, runnin' down a dream that never would come to me
Workin' on a mystery, goin' whetever it leads
Runnin' down a dream

I rolled on, the sky grew dark
I put the pedal down to make some time
There's something good waitin' down this road
I'm pickin' up whatever's mine

I'm runnin' down a dream that never would come to me
Workin' on a mystery, goin' wherever it leads
Runnin' down a dream
Yeah, I'm runnin' down a dream that never would've come to me
Workin' on a mystery, goin' wherever it leads
I'm runnin' down a dream

Mike Campbell/Tom Petty/Jeff Lynne. Recorded 1987-1988. Released 1989. Been around for 30 years. Still gets air time. Seems like universal sentiment and universal experience for billions.

[fife]

😊 On Aug. 6 Etznab wrote:
I'm at least the second person in this group that decided you are probably not worth communicating with.

I know you struggle Etznab. Because you expect everyone to step into your dream with its parameters, rules, and limited understanding. That's your idea of communication. You're like the impersonation of an Eck Satsang class. But if someone wants that they can sign up with Eckankar and attend them. That, however, is not here. And it's not the way that real people communicate in the real world.

[Etznab]

Thread title is a question. Very well illustrated.

[Henosis Sage]

Post by Etznab

Post by fife
I've run down, chased down, hunted down, hunted for, searched for, searched for the reasons for, the origins of, the history of, the purpose of, the purpose for, a dream, a few dreams, more than a few dreams in my time. Sure.
But you know, when you've done that for years, decades, you start to realize it's not about the dream it's about the dream hunter. You. What ever the dream, it's less about that and more about the manner, technique, and means that you employ. You start to realize it's less about the dream, any dream, after all they're just dreams aren't they? And you start to realize it's more about yourself, the respect you have for yourself, and why you should have that respect for yourself because (that) is a good thing if it doesn't go haywire. Runnin' down a dream, hunting one down, isn't about a dream it's about the hunter. You. Don't forget that, switch that, lose control, lose you and the respect you have for you, self-respect, by putting the dream first and you not at all.

Fife. What is wrong with you?
I'm at least the second person in this group that decided you are probably not worth communicating with. The reason? Take a guess.

What's wrong with Fife?

Like all of us, that's probably a very long list! (smiling)

In this instance I can't see anything "wrong" in what he said EXCEPT that when using the word "you" in uch a senstecne it can lead to a misunderstanding of "intention" ...

My "reading" of it was initially the last part could have been directing the content specifically to / about / for "eztnab" ... but that's not necessarily so.

Especially when later Fife said : " What? I'm talking about myself and my experience. "

Now that made total sense because re-reading it I noticed Fife saying

"I've run down, chased down, hunted down, ............, more than a few dreams in my time. Sure."

So what followed was an expansionism of that "experience" being reflected upon.

There's not much difference between Fife passage

" But you know, when you've done that for years, decades, you start to realize it's not about the dream it's about the dream hunter. You. What ever the dream, it's less about that and more about the manner, ..... lose control, lose you and the respect you have for you, self-respect, by putting the dream first and you not at all."

and RT talking to PT in "dialogue mode", in SBTR etc.

It's a generic "you" (everyone/myself/RT/PT) being couched in the reader as if "listening" to what is being said.

Now THIS style of writing can and does lead to some confusion in the "reader"
- eg when the symbolic morphs into "literal" ...

Meaning that everywhere PT repeatedly made the very same mistakes people make about the 'authors/authority" of Bible texts ... like taking the idea of YOU"RE A SINNER as if it's a condemnation judgment from The Court of Jesus and the reader spirals into guilt for being outed, exposed and convicted as a SINNER ... not good enough. Then they spiral into "depression" recalling all the BAD things they had done and thought in their lives.

But of course ... Fife was only speaking about himself but from the Universal Aspect ... in that everyone is kind of like the same - as in we all are human , we do the and think the same things (more or less)

Of course Fife could have put it differently :

"But now I know, when I've done that for years, decades, I eventually started to realize it's not about the dream, it's about ME as the Dream Hunter ....."

BUT that style too raises difficulties ... when the reader assumes he's only taking about himself, always talking about himself .. then MORPH that into him always focused on his own self-importance (which is not necessarily the case)

It's all just an interpretation being made by the READER .... again.

In my case I much prefer using I/me that we/us or YOU because I don;t presume to place my 'experiences/views" above others. nor presume to speak for others (which is how marman spoke ALL THE TIME! annoyed the crap out of me that!)

So weeks later Tisra til pretty much clears it up ... it's probably better to use the generic/universal term ONE, instead of the universal term YOU.

But I bet my last $ that out there there are people who would take issue at that as well. ...

IOW you cannot please everyone all the time ... (that's very True!)

[Etznab]

Post by fife
I've run down, chased down, hunted down, hunted for, searched for, searched for the reasons for, the origins of, the history of, the purpose of, the purpose for, a dream, a few dreams, more than a few dreams in my time. Sure.
But you know, when you've done that for years, decades, you start to realize it's not about the dream it's about the dream hunter. You. What ever the dream, it's less about that and more about the manner, technique, and means that you employ. You start to realize it's less about the dream, any dream, after all they're just dreams aren't they? And you start to realize it's more about yourself, the respect you have for yourself, and why you should have that respect for yourself because (that) is a good thing if it doesn't go haywire. Runnin' down a dream, hunting one down, isn't about a dream it's about the hunter. You. Don't forget that, switch that, lose control, lose you and the respect you have for you, self-respect, by putting the dream first and you not at all.

Your next post mentions how you were talking about you and your experience. See how I used the word "you"? and was not talking about me, but you?

In the second paragraph of your post you (writing about you and your experience) used the word "you or your" about 13 times! In a paragraph that was only six lines long! Personally, Fife, not everybody writes like that. Evidently though, you do.

I'm revisiting this thread and your posts to make a point. I hope you get it.

[fife]

You you you. Particular you, general you, personal you? General you as in "one" (oneself). You, yours. One, one's. Its a style of prose.

No. I don't know what you're getting at here. I'm not as clever as you are, apparently. I can't read your mind as you evidently think you can read mine.

So. What is it, Etznab?

[Tisra Til]

Post by Etznab

Post by fife
I've run down, chased down, hunted down, hunted for, searched for, searched for the reasons for, the origins of, the history of, the purpose of, the purpose for, a dream, a few dreams, more than a few dreams in my time. Sure.
But you know, when you've done that for years, decades, you start to realize it's not about the dream it's about the dream hunter. You. What ever the dream, it's less about that and more about the manner, technique, and means that you employ. You start to realize it's less about the dream, any dream, after all they're just dreams aren't they? And you start to realize it's more about yourself, the respect you have for yourself, and why you should have that respect for yourself because (that) is a good thing if it doesn't go haywire. Runnin' down a dream, hunting one down, isn't about a dream it's about the hunter. You. Don't forget that, switch that, lose control, lose you and the respect you have for you, self-respect, by putting the dream first and you not at all.

Your next post mentions how you were talking about you and your experience. See how I used the word "you"? and was not talking about me, but you?
In the second paragraph of your post you (writing about you and your experience) used the word "you or your" about 13 times! In a paragraph that was only six lines long! Personally, Fife, not everybody writes like that. Evidently though, you do.
I'm revisiting this thread and your posts to make a point. I hope you get it.

I understood what he meant. He is speaking of the universal you. It means me, you, everyone. I write like that myself sometimes. The more grammatically correct word is 'one.' It's not directed at anyone in particular. It could mean me, you, or anyone, because it is a universal experience all are capable of experiencing.

For instance, the third and fourth sentences could be written, "One starts to realize it's less about the dream, any dream; after all they're just dreams, aren't they? And one starts to realize that it's more about oneself, the respect one has for one's self, and why one should have respect for one's self, because (that) is a good thing if it doesn't go haywire."

That would be the grammatically correct way of expressing those ideas. But you (one) would be hard-pressed to find anything written about the depth expressed in the ideas. Transpersonal psychology looks at dreams in a similar manner.

[fife]

Yes.

[Etznab]

Yes.

I don't know why Fife is chasing dreams and then suggesting others are doing it like him. Especially on this thread, given the topic and subject matter. IMO the word dream does not fit here.

[fife]

It's your dream of Eckankar that keeps you going, isn't it?

Not Eckankar as it is. Dishonest, plagiarized, with imaginary/fake saints.

[Etznab]

Post by fife
It's your dream of Eckankar that keeps you going, isn't it?
Not Eckankar as it is. Dishonest, plagiarized, with imaginary/fake saints.

You were the one who referred to a dream and your experiences. Then you had to try and pin that word onto me, and others. Now again try to do the same. I knew it from the get go that was your intention; in spite of your "What? I'm talking about myself and my experience."

And that's just it. It's about you. It's your viewpoint and I think it should be shared in that way.

Yet another time on this thread you used the word dream.

"I know you struggle Etznab. Because you expect everyone to step into your dream with its parameters, rules, and limited understanding. That's your idea of communication. You're like the impersonation of an Eck Satsang class. But if someone wants that they can sign up with Eckankar and attend them. That, however, is not here. And it's not the way that real people communicate in the real world."

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.religion.eckankar/Q5NbuPou0dA/cb_GyKYAFQAJ

What's up with that, Fife? You gonna make a joke now and wave it off as not a serious statement? Your a flagrant liar and manipulator and it shows in your writing! I've seen people do this to others in this group for like, How many years already? And somehow you think I can't see it?

Why are you even here, Fife? Want to discuss Eckankar. Uhh, you know, because that is something that happens here. Or do you just want to massage the content and steer discussions in the direction of your agenda?

[fife]

Oh, for God's sake. What's the thorn in your shorts this evening, Etznab?

[Henosis Sage]

Post by Etznab

Post by fife
It's your dream of Eckankar that keeps you going, isn't it?
Not Eckankar as it is. Dishonest, plagiarized, with imaginary/fake saints.

You were the one who referred to a dream and your experiences. Then you had to try and pin that word onto me, and others. Now again try to do the same. I knew it from the get go that was your intention; in spite of your "What? I'm talking about myself and my experience."
And that's just it. It's about you. It's your viewpoint and I think it should be shared in that way.
Yet another time on this thread you used the word dream.
"I know you struggle Etznab. Because you expect everyone to step into your dream with its parameters, rules, and limited understanding. That's your idea of communication. You're like the impersonation of an Eck Satsang class. But if someone wants that they can sign up with Eckankar and attend them. That, however, is not here. And it's not the way that real people communicate in the real world."
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.religion.eckankar/Q5NbuPou0dA/cb_GyKYAFQAJ
What's up with that, Fife? You gonna make a joke now and wave it off as not a serious statement? Your a flagrant liar and manipulator and it shows in your writing! I've seen people do this to others in this group for like, How many years already? And somehow you think I can't see it?
Why are you even here, Fife? Want to discuss Eckankar. Uhh, you know, because that is something that happens here. Or do you just want to massage the content and steer discussions in the direction of your agenda?

At the risk of inadvertently pouring gasoline on the fire ... I think this by me explains everything well.

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.religion.eckankar/Q5NbuPou0dA/OvDZdm8mCQAJ

and this by TT does an even better more succinct clearer job of it.
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.religion.eckankar/Q5NbuPou0dA/D258LEHZCAAJ

*twinkle*

[Henosis Sage]

Post by fife
It's your dream of Eckankar that keeps you going, isn't it?
Not Eckankar as it is. Dishonest, plagiarized, with imaginary/fake saints.

Seems reasonable question, though maybe a a bit too direct/personal .... depends on who is being asked and the mood they are in at the time. ;-)

Maybe phrasing it ...

"It's your dream and hopes of what Eckankar COULD be (if the truth were known) AND how that more truthful open honest CLEAR approach would be more helpful to Eckists than the SPIN, that keeps you going, isn't it?"

would be "clearer" ... but even Patti told me "less is more sean"

and yet I have repeatedly found that when I try to make things shorter it still leads to great misunderstandings anyway ... besides imho Patti's response was a "cop out"

She just did not want to to address all the negative realities that come with "Paul's Great Creation of a Program."

[fife]

Look. This is all because no one's been paying attention to Etznab for the last couple of days. There's been no discussion of his topics. So, WTF, why not be provocative? It doesn't matter what anyone posts as long as someone posts something. As long as there's a "discussion".

[Etznab]

It's about the word dream and how it was used and in reference to me and Eckankar. And about me speaking for myself instead of another trying to speak for me. IMHO.

[Etznab]

Instead of focussing on a single post, I think sometimes it's good to also look at the context in which they appear. My later posts on this thread were not stand alone ones. They were responding in context to the entire thread, but also in context to a number of similar postings by Fife on other threads.

Look at Fife's third post on this thread and look at it in context to the thread discussion. Who is he writing to like that? And why? IMO it is not only provocative but a lie and manipilative! And not the first time for those who have eyes to see.

[Henosis Sage]

Post by Etznab
Instead of focussing on a single post, I think sometimes it's good to also look at the context in which they appear. My later posts on this thread were not stand alone ones. They were responding in context to the entire thread, but also in context to a number of similar postings by Fife on other threads.
Look at Fife's third post on this thread and look at it in context to the thread discussion. Who is he writing to like that? And why? IMO it is not only provocative but a lie and manipilative! And not the first time for those who have eyes to see.

"Who is he writing to like that?"

To the Group?

Everyone?

Himself?

You too?

Nobody?

Who are you writing to above?

Who are you questioning?

(cheeky smile)

[Henosis Sage]

Post by fife
Look. This is all because no one's been paying attention to Etznab for the last couple of days. There's been no discussion of his topics. So, WTF, why not be provocative? It doesn't matter what anyone posts as long as someone posts something. As long as there's a "discussion".

Damn ya see? I alwasy blow it lol ... I didn't mean to be provocative either myself. :-)

maybe if I had said ... "maybe a a bit too direct/personal for him"?

That's really it isn't it? We all have "buttons" ... it's all about the word "dream" to eztnab, and how he saw it being "used" ... intentions are irrelevant here. (as always)

Fife, you have transgressed the unwritten law (as Monty Python would put it) ;-)

[Etznab]

It's no big deal. My punching bags are durable :)

[fife]

OMG this is ridiculous!

It's like a Month Python sketch.

"THIS. Is an EX parrot!"

Or, is it a long suffering paranoid conspiracy and personal injury nut likely to go off at any time there's not enough personal attention?

Ah, well, but you know me. Just a "flagrant liar" and "manipulator".

[Etznab]

Post by Etznab
"And to perceive the influence of some negative nature and react to it is not enough. We must learn to counteract it."
By developing the other side. I know you think both sides are the same. You've said so many times. "Both sides of the coin" etc.. But they're not. 😇

This was the quote by Paul Twitchell that I posted:

"And to perceive the influence of some negative nature and react to it is not enough. We must learn to counteract it."

Fife responded:

By developing the other side. I know you think both sides are the same. You've said so many times. "Both sides of the coin" etc.. But they're not. 😇

So here is a question for the group.

What is the negative nature of Eckankar writings / teachings that people reacted to, but did not counteract?

[fife]

Linear thinking and judging everything by it. The lineage of masters, etc. Expecting everything to conform to linear thinking and be proven by linear proofs.

[Etznab]

Post by fife
Linear thinking and judging everything by it. The lineage of masters, etc. Expecting everything to conform to linear thinking and be proven by linear proofs.

I might understand that if it had come from Doug Marman, or some other apologist.

Isn't it a stretch though? Expecting EVERYTHING to conform to linear thinking? Or to suggest that anybody might?

[fife]

Exactly.

[Etznab]

Post by fife
Linear thinking and judging everything by it. The lineage of masters, etc. Expecting everything to conform to linear thinking and be proven by linear proofs.

I think a lineage of masters should be proven by linear proofs. That's what a lineage of masters is.

[Etznab]

Post by Etznab
"And to perceive the influence of some negative nature and react to it is not enough. We must learn to counteract it."
By developing the other side. I know you think both sides are the same. You've said so many times. "Both sides of the coin" etc.. But they're not. 😇

Fife the framer. But why?

[Etznab]

Post by Etznab

Post by Etznab
"And to perceive the influence of some negative nature and react to it is not enough. We must learn to counteract it."
By developing the other side. I know you think both sides are the same. You've said so many times. "Both sides of the coin" etc.. But they're not. 😇

Fife the framer. But why?

Why is Fife framing the posts? Typing jibberish and / or making things up to change the narrative?

[fife]

me

7:59 PMme
This is the framework and it's why.

http://www.pearltrees.com/ib_dubie/brennan/id2738443#item19953260

All these things are, are mental constructs (visualized). Ego, superego, id. That people have been getting visual and intellectual glimpses of for thousands of years. And starting religions and philosophies based on.

You may not think that what I'm saying is the truth.

I can't do anything about that.

But if you don't look into the possibility that this may be the truth. Look into it yourself. If you just reject it out of hand. Then you'll never know within a reasonable certainty. As close to a absolute certainty as these things get. For yourself. Will you?

[fife]

9:01 PMme
😊
Look around in the world. People are turning the ego into liberal hell. People are turning the id into conservative hell. And they're ruining the middle path while they're at it, as well. Every day.

[fife]

Etznab:

Okay. I was responding to your posts from yesterday (Dec 21).

But I just went back to the beginning and read through all the posts in the thread. The topic was originally posted 3 years ago. Then you bring it back in August this year. Then again September, October, and now December. Why? It's not a particularly wonderful thread. Is there a single (one) reason for this? Considering where the thread goes over three years? I wonder why you do this all the time? Pull up old threads. Sometimes with all the posts (besides yours) by people who are long gone and aren't going to respond any more.

Maybe because no one today is going to post about those about those things long ago discussed and decided? Post those replies? Have those conversations?

I don't know.

[Etznab]

Post by fife
Okay. I was responding to your posts from yesterday (Dec 21).
But I just went back to the beginning and read through all the posts in the thread. The topic was originally posted 3 years ago. Then you bring it back in August this year. Then again September, October, and now December. Why? It's not a particularly wonderful thread. Is there a single (one) reason for this? Considering where the thread goes over three years? I wonder why you do this all the time? Pull up old threads. Sometimes with all the posts (besides yours) by people who are long gone and aren't going to respond any more.
Maybe because no one today is going to post about those about those things long ago discussed and decided? Post those replies? Have those conversations?
I don't know.

Not a wonderful thread? IT IS THE KEY!

The Key to Eckankar. Rebazar Tarzs? or plagiarism and paraphrase?

So it is one of the best threads, IMO. Problem is blockheads who can't even read, or discuss this wonderful topic without distracting or sounding like a troll.

Your first chime was this.

"All this whole, giant lot is about using truth to recognize God Realization. Is that what you're doing with it then?"

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.religion.eckankar/Q5NbuPou0dA/0stY8IcRDQAJ

A sweeping generalized statement followed by a question. All that went before that and this was your response. I call it framing.

There was some input about truth. Objective and subjective. And it wasn't posted by me. In fact, what I added was an illustrated quote "Spiritual consciousness is attained through the activity of truth in consciousness." Not rocket science that true, or not true is at the core of this thread topic. Except you changed the quote, reworded it and tried to make some presumptions. IOW, your train went off the track as soon as it started chugging, IMHO.

There was some talk about Doug Marman and not being fooled. Then some for very bad FRAMING by you, Fife>

"By developing the other side. I know you think both sides are the same. You've said so many times. "Both sides of the coin" etc.. But they're not."

See what I mean? Here you told me what (according to you) I think! Adding that I said so many times! So maybe first we should go back and address this matter. You can start by illustrating where and when I said many times that both sides are the same. Both sides of the coin belong to the same thing. The same coin. They are not the same in appearance, but there is a connection. That connection is key. It is key. It is crucial. It is the essence of what this thread began to target.

The myths, the lies, the pseudo history and religion often spin off from the truth. There is a point where truth and actual fact get changed into something else. Sometimes the reason is to hide the actual truth. Look at the name Rebazar Tarzs. Some might believe this is a real ancient master from a long lineage at the heart of Eckankar teachings based on narrative in which the name appears. I would counteract any negative influence by presenting the other side, the truth, and as far as I know nobody else besides Sean has worked so hard to discover and isolate the facts from the fictions using source documents and actual words instead of imagination, hype and spin.

So do me a favor then. Go back to before this thread and find where I said that both sides were the same many times. Because I think you have put your own spin onto this. Why you did this and what is your motive I am not sure. It's a pattern though, I can say that, and one easily traceable in the archives. It reeks of personal contempt for another person in this group. Again, what is your motive and reasons for doing this I am not sure.

Fife, are you some kind of self-appointed quack come to "fix" the members of a.r.e. under the guise of just another one of us?

I am looking at the pseudo history and religion aspects of the religion called Eckankar. As far as I know there is not another online discussion on this topic going on at the moment. If you find a group let me know. Otherwise I will stay here and follow through with what was begun so many years ago. Many have dropped out or just plain quit. I have not. Others have said there is nothing else to say, know, learn, etc. And with that I don't agree. Those are obstructionist attitudes disguised as the truth, IMHO.

[fife]

Not a wonderful thread? IT IS THE KEY!

😄
Okay. Okay. Great job of finding the original authors and sources and comparing your "KEY" to them. But you barely seem to understand the contents of the booklet or the originals it's plagiarized from. T.T. was the only person to respond to your long, long, very long post nearly four years ago, with a short post of his own. Not exactly a landslide of interest in "the key, r.t.? or plagiarism and paraphrase".

But it's what you do and you do and you do. And will continue to do 'till hell freezes over. I get that. Did you ask Santa for some wooly underwear? Because it's going to be a long, long, very long, long, long social winter. So, bundle up and dress warmly. 💨🐧

[fife]

You're right. This is apparently the last place left where the lies, frauds, and plagiarisms of p.t. and eckankar were argued and discussed. WERE being the operative word. But the many who were here doing that, aren't any more. (I would say) because all those arguments are done and all those discussions are over and they're no longer interested. Because all the answers are here in the archive or in Sean's on google drive. So why don't you start one of your own? On Facebook or start a blog. For real. There's lots of social media to choose from now. And continue to post here of course. You'd be lost without this place. But start something new. Maybe someone has a burning desire to argue and discuss what you're interested in. Because no one here really does any more. Everyone knows the answers and doesn't really want to get into all the already asked and answered questions and trivia all that much.

Really. Why don't you continue to post here but start something of your own somewhere else? Maybe someone's interested.

[Henosis Sage]

"Because no one here really does any more."

Etznab does.
Very uncool telling other people what they should be doing or not doing.

And "where they should go"
It's that little hitler in you bursting to get out and make a difference? lol

Besides that, Etznab is correct:
"Here you told me what (according to you) I think! Adding that I said so many
times! So maybe first we should go back and address this matter. You can start
by illustrating where and when I said many times that both sides are the same."

People's conjectures and conclusions about why PT did this or that, how
plagiarism accidentally turned up in his writing, and what PTs intentions
were about this and that, that were far off with the faeries too.

Opinions and conjecture are not facts.

[Henosis Sage]

Post by Henosis Sage
"Because no one here really does any more."
Etznab does.
Very uncool telling other people what they should be doing or not doing.
And "where they should go"
It's that little hitler in you bursting to get out and make a difference? lol
"Here you told me what (according to you) I think! Adding that I said so many
times! So maybe first we should go back and address this matter. You can start
by illustrating where and when I said many times that both sides are the same."
People's conjectures and conclusions about why PT did this or that, how
plagiarism accidentally turned up in his writing, and what PTs intentions
were about this and that, that were far off with the faeries too.
Opinions and conjecture are not facts.

aka "the ends don't justify the means"

[fife]

Very uncool telling other people what they should be doing or not doing.

So. Unlike you and Etznab telling me how to march to the beat of your drummer when I first started posting? How to do my research, what syntax to use, how to post.

Yes. Etznab cares. Obviously. And he's the only one. It's just so very odd reading contemporary postings by someone who might be sitting in front of a mirror typing the posts to all the people (himself) he sees reflected in it. Himself and all the ghosts from a.r.e. past who are no longer present.

[fife]

Rebazar Tarzs Plagiarism
Dec 21Etznab
If Rebazar Tarzs is real and he really dictated to Paul Twitchell, telling him what to write, then Rebazar Tarzs is a plagiarist. No?

I'd like to discuss with Rob, or any other apologist (Kinpa and J.R. included) as to - if Rebazar Tarzs is real - Why does an eck master have to steal the words of others? Taking credit for them and deleting the author. Also deleting the history of the author.

Yes. This is the action that he obviously craves and wants. But it's not 2009 or 1999 here any more. So you think that suggesting that in addition to posting here he might try Facebook or blogging as well? I don't. Not if this is the kind of action he wants. That is, if there's still this kind of action to be had.

[Etznab]

Post by fife
Rebazar Tarzs Plagiarism
Dec 21Etznab
If Rebazar Tarzs is real and he really dictated to Paul Twitchell, telling him what to write, then Rebazar Tarzs is a plagiarist. No?
I'd like to discuss with Rob, or any other apologist (Kinpa and J.R. included) as to - if Rebazar Tarzs is real - Why does an eck master have to steal the words of others? Taking credit for them and deleting the author. Also deleting the history of the author.
Yes. This is the action that he obviously craves and wants. But it's not 2009 or 1999 here any more. So you think that suggesting that in addition to posting here he might try Facebook or blogging as well? I don't. Not if this is the kind of action he wants. That is, if there's still this kind of action to be had.

Who is "he" and What are you talking about?

[fife]

There was a short post recently about Winter Solstice.

Right. "He" is you. Etznab. I've been writing other responses and was distracted in my objective intention using that pronoun.

[fife]

Who is "he" and What are you talking about?

He is you, Etznab. I was writing to Sean, not you, about one of his posts. So that's why the pronoun.

And, what am I talking about? Do you even read these threads? Read what people post? Follow the thread? And where it goes?

[fife]

Etz:
Start with a topic about Rebazar Tarzs and plagiarism and suddenly you're talking about the sun and sun gods?

Okay. You're choice.

But when someone else does that? OMG it's the end of the world!

What for?

[Etznab]

Post by fife
Start with a topic about Rebazar Tarzs and plagiarism and suddenly you're talking about the sun and sun gods?
Okay. You're choice.
But when someone else does that? OMG it's the end of the world!
What for?

How does Twiitchell know about any Sun-Gods of Asia anyway. Got it from an Eck Master? Think again.

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.religion.eckankar/1m66RUn1fgM/uo6BdExcCAAJ

Evidently Twitchell had a problem with using original sources. Later changing the names instead.

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.religion.eckankar/1m66RUn1fgM/aqOM67OCCAAJ

Son or Sun? IOW. How did Sun become Son? And why after hundreds of years is anybody ignorant about this?

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.religion.eckankar/XwWYlz0_L_Y/sNE1i2pBWoMJ

I think this is interesting to discuss. And the truth about it very fruitful.

[Henosis Sage]

Post by Etznab

Post by fife
Start with a topic about Rebazar Tarzs and plagiarism and suddenly you're talking about the sun and sun gods?
Okay. You're choice.
But when someone else does that? OMG it's the end of the world!
What for?

How does Twiitchell know about any Sun-Gods of Asia anyway. Got it from an Eck Master? Think again.
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.religion.eckankar/1m66RUn1fgM/uo6BdExcCAAJ
Evidently Twitchell had a problem with using original sources. Later changing the names instead.
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.religion.eckankar/1m66RUn1fgM/aqOM67OCCAAJ
Son or Sun? IOW. How did Sun become Son? And why after hundreds of years is anybody ignorant about this?
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.religion.eckankar/XwWYlz0_L_Y/sNE1i2pBWoMJ
I think this is interesting to discuss. And the truth about it very fruitful.

for example from 2009 a pro-PT eckist said

quote:
"If you look at the dogmas of the Catholic Church, you won't find a single
one related directly to what Christ said.

Attis, Mythra, and surprisingly Apollonius of Tyana all contributed in their
own ways to the formation of the Christian doctrines.

Fascinaing stuff chasing down the lineage of belief.

Of Note, Paul lists Dionisus (Bacchus) as an Eck Master. I have long been
curious about that one. Also it seems to me that Yauble Sacabi is really who
we commonly now as Orpheus (Orphic Mysteries)"

[Etznab]

Post by fife
Start with a topic about Rebazar Tarzs and plagiarism and suddenly you're talking about the sun and sun gods?
Okay. You're choice.
But when someone else does that? OMG it's the end of the world!
What for?

More about Sun Gods.

"The Ancient One is the reincarnation of the living masters, or those who are called the Sun Gods in the literature of the ancient world."

- IWL, May 1967 (Eckankar Illuminated Way Letters 1966-1971 Copyright 1975 by Gail Twitchell Gross)

[fife]

Is it the Sugmad or the Mahanta that's supposed to be in the mold of the sun gods of Asia? Did anyone ever follow up on that?

[Etznab]

Post by fife
Is it the Sugmad or the Mahanta that's supposed to be in the mold of the sun gods of Asia? Did anyone ever follow up on that?

Supposed to?

I illustrated what the quote said. It said Mahanta, not Sugmad.

From what I can see the origin and older message was about the Sun. Not about a God, or a Son of God. Not about a Mahanta either.

[fife]

Supposed to?

Supposed to? Supposedly? What's the difference? I'm just asking about Eckankar lore. Put out in Key to Secret Worlds, I believe.

[fife]

btw. Sun and sun may just be a bit of homonym nonsense with english words. The two don't look or sound the same in every language of every culture that had sun worship or the ones that a son of god cult started up in. What do the words sun and son look and sound like in Arameic for instance?

[fife]

btw. Sun and sun may just be a bit of homonym nonsense with english words. The two don't look or sound the same in every language of every culture that had sun worship or the ones that a son of god cult started up in. What do the words sun and son look and sound like in Aramaic for instance?

[Etznab]

Post by Etznab

Post by fife
Start with a topic about Rebazar Tarzs and plagiarism and suddenly you're talking about the sun and sun gods?
Okay. You're choice.
But when someone else does that? OMG it's the end of the world!
What for?

More about Sun Gods.
"The Ancient One is the reincarnation of the living masters, or those who are called the Sun Gods in the literature of the ancient world."
- IWL, May 1967 (Eckankar Illuminated Way Letters 1966-1971 Copyright 1975 by Gail Twitchell Gross)

One of the points I was making concerns real history versus pseudo history. Like Sun Gods.

It was already shown that numerous cultures had traditions for celebrating the Sun. However, at some point they mutated to "Sun-Gods", "Son of God", "Mahanta", etc.

IMO if one looks at how the pseudo history began, it might shed some light on how this kind of thing happens. Also, How it happens that a Rebazar Tarzs is born in the imagination.

[Etznab]

Post by Henosis Sage
Very uncool telling other people what they should be doing or not doing.
So. Unlike you and Etznab telling me how to march to the beat of your drummer when I first started posting? How to do my research, what syntax to use, how to post.
Yes. Etznab cares. Obviously. And he's the only one. It's just so very odd reading contemporary postings by someone who might be sitting in front of a mirror typing the posts to all the people (himself) he sees reflected in it. Himself and all the ghosts from a.r.e. past who are no longer present.

Could you give an example please so we can know exactly what you are referring to? And how your examples compare to what you recently told me. Thanks much.

[Henosis Sage]

Post by Henosis Sage
Very uncool telling other people what they should be doing or not doing.
So. Unlike you and Etznab telling me how to march to the beat of your drummer when I first started posting? How to do my research, what syntax to use, how to post.
Yes. Etznab cares. Obviously. And he's the only one. It's just so very odd reading contemporary postings by someone who might be sitting in front of a mirror typing the posts to all the people (himself) he sees reflected in it. Himself and all the ghosts from a.r.e. past who are no longer present.

IIRC I did offer some possible suggestions, gave feedback and asked questions.

In the CONTEXT that I did not understand what you meant.

I certainly did not tell you what to do nor guess make wild conjectures about
why you were saying doing what you were doing/saying.

And I do not recall calling you a moron or that your mental processes were
completely out of whack either. Nor that your long term and present 'hobby'
sucks.

Though I do not have a photographic memory like Twitchell is said to have
possessed. So, I could be wrong here. ;-)

[fife]

All true.

[Etznab]

Post by fife
All true.

So here I like to ask some of my favorite questions. Did Paul Twitchell always give information about Eckankar history based on what an unbroken lineage of masters said? Or did Paul Twitchell often use hand-me-down words gathered from books? along with recycled information such as you find on the Internet today? (as if some Bot Army had launched so many bytes of information to serve out a personal agenda?)

Recycled hand-me-down information from books and various authors, complete with personal politics, prejudice, preconceptions, religious slants, fictions and lies, etc., etc. IMHO is hardly equivalent to wisdom handed down by word of mouth since the time of Gakko on Venus through an unbroken line of living masters!!!

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.religion.eckankar/_mgA7P8MO7k/ttESN_CXBAAJ

[fife]

Actually I think the moron thing was for combatively putting down something he didn't know anything about, hadn't looked into, and (obviously) wasn't interested in. Violating his own "rules" for first get the facts, do the research, get the data, THEN make a statement.

Look, what's it all about any more? Procedural posturing or ideas? Because it seems that anyone who posts an idea has a ton of procedural posturing laid on them. Unless its you or Etznab. Everone's supposed to accept the idea that you two are exempt. While at the same time (no surprise) its you-all who lay on all the procedural posturing.

Is that all there is?
Is that the status?
Is that all there is any more?

And by the way, Etznab is a moron. I know that's not his fault. And I recognize that. I don't care if he was good at digging up information. All that proves is that he was good at that. Even a blind pig can find an acorn or a truffle. That doesn't mean that they know what they look like or understand anything about them, other than what they smell like, taste like, and what the texture us like when they chew them up.

[Henosis Sage]

Post by fife
Actually I think the moron thing was for combatively putting down something he didn't know anything about, hadn't looked into, and (obviously) wasn't interested in. Violating his own "rules" for first get the facts, do the research, get the data, THEN make a statement.
Look, what's it all about any more? Procedural posturing or ideas? Because it seems that anyone who posts an idea has a ton of procedural posturing laid on them. Unless its you or Etznab. Everone's supposed to accept the idea that you two are exempt. While at the same time (no surprise) its you-all who lay on all the procedural posturing.
Is that all there is?
Is that the status?
Is that all there is any more?
And by the way, Etznab is a moron. I know that's not his fault. And I recognize that. I don't care if he was good at digging up information. All that proves is that he was good at that. Even a blind pig can find an acorn or a truffle. That doesn't mean that they know what they look like or understand anything about them, other than what they smell like, taste like, and what the texture us like when they chew them up.

"Procedural posturing or ideas?"

Procedural. It's important that Procedures are being followed to the letter.

Or the entire system breaks down. Gee, everyone knows that Shirley.

[fife]

Procedural. It's important that Procedures are being followed to the letter.

Really? But they never are. So if you put yourself in that position, then you put yourself in a position to feel you're being picked on. Constantly. Possible?

[Henosis Sage]

Post by Henosis Sage
Procedural. It's important that Procedures are being followed to the letter.
Really? But they never are. So if you put yourself in that position, then you put yourself in a position to feel you're being picked on. Constantly. Possible?

Possibly pulling your leg?

Lighten up.

[fife]

Duh! Stupid me. Okay.
(It's the sort of thing that happens when people bring their problems to you to solve throughout your whole life. You get to where you expect or anticipate that's going to happen that's going to be. If this were real life and not a blind bulletin board there'd be "tells" and I'd know it was just fooling and not for real. Most of the time in real life It's just people hiding things from themselves. But not this time. Ah, well.)

[fife]

"It's a funny old world." (Ha ha) 😞 Not always. And do you know where people usually hide things, in their id (don't ask, I don't want to talk about it and I reckon no one on the board wants to read about it). Just as well.

[Henosis Sage]

Post by fife
"It's a funny old world." (Ha ha) 😞 Not always. And do you know where people usually hide things, in their id (don't ask, I don't want to talk about it and I reckon no one on the board wants to read about it). Just as well.

Then my ID is unbelievably large and swollen up!

[fife]

Henosis:
No not really. In the hour since I posted that, I cracked a book I've had for a while. It wasn't published until 2017 and I've had a copy for about that long. Two years. Eighteen months. But I never did more than skim it. Breeze through it skimming the illustrations mostly. I really wasn't ready to look into it and thought I might never be so it's been on my book shelf.
But after the last few weeks on the board, here...
Well, I think the world is messed up. And you've posted to that idea yourself in various ways and I agree with you. The idea, anyway.
You also posted recently that you think there are some powerful psychic forces that influence things. That's another factor. And I agree with you. But we may have different ideas about this.
So where am I going with this? I think there are some powerful systems that are messed up but all conventional means that everyone is trying to bring to bear on them are useless. They are systems that are messed up and can't be "manhandled" into correctness by people who don't know or understand them or what they are. Where I differ with you (if I understand what you've said and am not getting this wrong) is that you don't think that this can be understood and I'm starting to see that it can. Not that I understand all or even more than a little of it now.
What I do see is everyone is thinking in the wrong way about how to find, and solve the problems. It's not about fixing a broken clockwork. That's all wrong and is never going to work. Rather, the thinking should be about how to heal messed up systems. But first (of course) to learn what those systems are and how they're all integrated.
Anyway, that's the thought.

[Henosis Sage]

Post by fife
Actually I think the moron thing was for combatively putting down something he didn't know anything about, hadn't looked into, and (obviously) wasn't interested in. Violating his own "rules" for first get the facts, do the research, get the data, THEN make a statement.
Look, what's it all about any more? Procedural posturing or ideas? Because it seems that anyone who posts an idea has a ton of procedural posturing laid on them. Unless its you or Etznab. Everone's supposed to accept the idea that you two are exempt. While at the same time (no surprise) its you-all who lay on all the procedural posturing.
Is that all there is?
Is that the status?
Is that all there is any more?
And by the way, Etznab is a moron. I know that's not his fault. And I recognize that. I don't care if he was good at digging up information. All that proves is that he was good at that. Even a blind pig can find an acorn or a truffle. That doesn't mean that they know what they look like or understand anything about them, other than what they smell like, taste like, and what the texture us like when they chew them up.

I'm not exempt. People pick on me all the time. It never stops.

[Etznab]

Post by fife
You're right. This is apparently the last place left where the lies, frauds, and plagiarisms of p.t. and eckankar were argued and discussed. WERE being the operative word. But the many who were here doing that, aren't any more. (I would say) because all those arguments are done and all those discussions are over and they're no longer interested. Because all the answers are here in the archive or in Sean's on google drive. So why don't you start one of your own? On Facebook or start a blog. For real. There's lots of social media to choose from now. And continue to post here of course. You'd be lost without this place. But start something new. Maybe someone has a burning desire to argue and discuss what you're interested in. Because no one here really does any more. Everyone knows the answers and doesn't really want to get into all the already asked and answered questions and trivia all that much.
Really. Why don't you continue to post here but start something of your own somewhere else? Maybe someone's interested.

"[...] I am looking at the pseudo history and religion aspects of the religion called Eckankar. As far as I know there is not another online discussion on this topic going on at the moment. If you find a group let me know. Otherwise I will stay here and follow through with what was begun so many years ago. Many have dropped out or just plain quit. I have not. Others have said there is nothing else to say, know, learn, etc. And with that I don't agree. Those are obstructionist attitudes disguised as the truth, IMHO."

Were is your context.

"You're right. This is apparently the last place left where the lies, frauds, and plagiarisms of p.t. and eckankar were argued and discussed. WERE being the operative word."

In your mind maybe everything is "were". To me the operative words are IS and ARE. Like right here in a.r.e. STILL. I know that you and others can't seem to handle this truth, but not my problem. There will be more questions and more findings. Aren't you excited about that?

There was a short post recently about Winter Solstice. The solstice was a very old celebration across many cultures that in some places evolved into s savior God. One that became personalized. I also recently mentioned "sun Gods of Asia". It is all connected and carefully chosen for a reason and to illustrate a point.

"But the Mahanta is the living Light, in the tradition of the ancient sun gods of Asia."

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.religion.eckankar/LY2buFu8FdQ/uzPNFDmb3XAJ

I can post some other supplemental information.

As a Sanskrit term, surat means "soul," [... .]

http://www.associatepublisher.com/e/s/su/surat_shabd_yoga.htm

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.religion.eckankar/sB6HsKSvogQ/RInTcGvy6WEJ

How does Twiitchell know about any Sun-Gods of Asia anyway. Got it from an Eck Master? Think again.

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.religion.eckankar/1m66RUn1fgM/uo6BdExcCAAJ

Evidently Twitchell had a problem with using original sources. Later changing the names instead.

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.religion.eckankar/1m66RUn1fgM/aqOM67OCCAAJ

Son or Sun? IOW. How did Sun become Son? And why after hundreds of years is anybody ignorant about this?

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.religion.eckankar/XwWYlz0_L_Y/sNE1i2pBWoMJ

I think this is interesting to discuss. And the truth about it very fruitful.

[fife]

There was a short post recently about Winter Solstice.

Yes. And I was the only one who responded to it. Am I wrong now for being the only one who gives a shit about your postings? Make up your mind about whether I give a shit about what you write, or not. Unless of course you want to have it both ways. Something that wouldn't be unusual at all for a.r.e.
btw did I get the answer to the question about the sun right or not?

[Etznab]

Post by fife
Okay. I was responding to your posts from yesterday (Dec 21).
But I just went back to the beginning and read through all the posts in the thread. The topic was originally posted 3 years ago. Then you bring it back in August this year. Then again September, October, and now December. Why? It's not a particularly wonderful thread. Is there a single (one) reason for this? Considering where the thread goes over three years? I wonder why you do this all the time? Pull up old threads. Sometimes with all the posts (besides yours) by people who are long gone and aren't going to respond any more.
Maybe because no one today is going to post about those about those things long ago discussed and decided? Post those replies? Have those conversations?
I don't know.

Not a wonderful thread? IT IS THE KEY!

The Key to Eckankar. Rebazar Tarzs? or plagiarism and paraphrase?

So it is one of the best threads, IMO. Problem is blockheads who can't even read, or discuss this wonderful topic without distracting or sounding like a troll.

Your first chime was this.

"All this whole, giant lot is about using truth to recognize God Realization. Is that what you're doing with it then?"

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.religion.eckankar/Q5NbuPou0dA/0stY8IcRDQAJ

A sweeping generalized statement followed by a question. All that went before that and this was your response. I call it framing.

There was some input about truth. Objective and subjective. And it wasn't posted by me.

[Etznab]

Post by fife
9:01 PMme
😊
Look around in the world. People are turning the ego into liberal hell. People are turning the id into conservative hell. And they're ruining the middle path while they're at it, as well. Every day.

Maybe the "program" is off and the machine following suit?

What addresses and talks about core beliefs more than anything? I mean about God, Heaven and Hell, Creation, Life and Death, Masters and Spiritual Guides, etc? Can anybody spell pseudo history and religion?

Can anybody dispel it? And if they could, What would be the method? Finding, adding, telling the truth and not more of the same made up guesswork perhaps?

[Tisra Til]

Post by Etznab
Some of my findings, so far, about Paul Twitchell's book, The Key to Eckankar.
The Key to Eckankar is about 43 pages of text. Similarities (near or exact) between text for The Key to Eckankar and writings of Neville Goddard appear on, or about pp. 5-6; the writings of Talbot Mundy, p. 6; Neville Goddard pp. 6-7; Thomas Troward, pp. 8-9; Talbot Mundy, p. 14; Neville Goddard, p. 17; Joel Goldsmith, p. 19; Talbot Mundy, pp. 23-25, 27; Scientology Dynamics, p. 27; Neville Goddard, p. 28; Scientology Axioms, p. 37; Joel Goldsmith, pp. 40-42.
This is a list of the books and links.
The Power of Awareness, Neville Goddard (1952)
http://ia600202.us.archive.org/11/items/ThePowerOfAwareness/Neville_ThePowerOfAwareness.pdf
Old Ugly Face, Talbot Mundy (1940)
http://arthursclassicnovels.com/mundy/ugfa10.html
Lectures on Mental Science, Thomas Troward (1909)
http://www.archive.org/stream/edinburghlecture00trow#page/n7/mode/2up
Scientology, Hubbard (1950s?)
http://learn.scientology.org/wis4_12.htm
Practicing the Presence, Joel S. Goldsmith (1958)
http://www.scribd.com/doc/82916572/Practicing-the-Presence-of-God-Joel-S-Goldsmith
The Key to Eckankar ("1968")
https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B0KObtCQpPKbZDhiNjhkZmQtNjI5Yy00ZTZlLWJjZDYtYjY3Yzg1Y2I4Mzhj/edit?pli=1
Today I finished illustrating some similarities (near and exact) between Paul Twitchell (1968) and Joel Goldsmith (1958). The length includes about fourteen paragraphs from The Key to Eckankar and I'm not quite sure how to begin sharing them here. Maybe I can do it paragraph by paragraph.
I will begin with quoting The Key to Eckankar (in which case Rebazar Tarzs is reportedly the speaker; so the text mostly appears in quotes), followed by the approximate page numbers (for TKTE). After that I will illustrate corresponding quotes by Goldsmith, as is.
"We only have to prove this in one direction and we shall have it proved in every direction. The whole secret lies in the word heart, or what we call consciousness. An intellectual knowledge of the fact that God is All is of no value. The only value any truth has is in the degree of its realization. Truth fully realized via ECKANKAR is spiritual consciousness. If we are conscious of the presence of the Lord, if we are conscious of the activity of God, then so we will see all of life through that understanding."
PTP - Goldsmith (2nd paragraph, p. 19)
The whole secret lies in the word "consciousness". An intellectual knowledge of the fact that God is all is of no value. The only value any truth has is in the degree of its realization. Truth realized is spiritual consciousness. If we are conscious of the presence of the Lord, if we are conscious of the activity of God, then so it is unto us.
http://www.scribd.com/doc/82916572/Practicing-the-Presence-of-God-Joel-S-Goldsmith
TKTE - p. 40
"Spiritual consciousness is attained through the activity of truth in consciousness. Dwelling on scriptural quotations or statements of truth helps to spiritualize thought. The more truth we read and hear, the more truth is active in our consciousness. We learn to abide in the world by putting truth into ourselves. This is the first step on the way to God."
PTP - p. 20
Spiritual consciousness is attained through the activity of truth in consciousness. Dwelling on scriptural quotations or statements of truth helps to spiritualize thought. The more truth that we read and hear, the more active is truth in our consciousness. Thus we learn to abide in the Word. This is the first step on the Way.
TKTE - p. 40
"The second step cannot be taken unless the first step has been mastered, that is, knowing the letter of truth. All the years we spend in reading truth, attending services, lectures, and classes are fruitful in leading us to that point where inspiration flows from within our own being. This inspiration, however, usually comes only after a thorough grounding in the letter of truth."
PTP - p. 21
The second step, which leads to a state of consciousness where we are receptive and responsive to the still small voice, cannot be taken, however, unless the first step has been mastered, that is, knowing the letter of truth. All the years that a person has spent in reading truth, hearing truth, thinking truth, attending church services, lectures, or classes are fruitful in leading him to that point where inspiration flows from within his own being. This inspiration, however, usually comes only after a thorough grounding in the letter of truth.
TKTE - p. 40
"Yaubl Sacabi told me long ago, 'Let my spirit dwell in you. And so shall the SUGMAD be exalted so that you will bear the harvest of good deeds.'
"To live in this truth, to abide in the Word, is to bear the harvest of all things in the richest manner: that is, to live harmoniously in the spiritual senses. But if we forget to live in the Word, to abide in It, and let It live in us, we become as the branch of a tree that is cut off and withers away.
"How can we live in the Word if we do not know It? We must know the Truth. We must learn what the correct letter of truth is. Let us have a principle with which to work, and let us stand on this principle, until the moment comes when we feel that spiritual awareness within us is realized. Then we shall know that we have attained the spirit of truth, the consciousness of truth, which is the Word of the SUGMAD and is power. Anyone with a sufficient desire for a realization of God can achieve that realization - the grace of God will guarantee it.
PTP - p. 21
Jesus tells us to let "my words abide in you. ... Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit." To live in that truth, to abide in that Word, is to bear fruit richly, that is, to live harmoniously, spiritual lives. But if we forget to live in the Word, to abide in it, and let it abide in us, we become as branches that are cut off and wither. How can we abide in this Word if we do not know it? We must know the truth. We must learn that the correct letter of truth is. Let us have a specific principle with which to work and let us stand on that principle, until the moment comes when we feel that spiritual awareness within us, which is realization. Then we shall know that we have attained the spirit of truth, the consciouness of truth, which is the Word of God and is power. Anyone with a sufficient desire for a realization of God will guarantee it.
[Keep in mind Joel S. Goldsmith's book was called Practicing The Presence and that another phrase he used (and a book by that same name) was called The Infinite Way.]
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.religion.eckankar/Wle6bykppIc/SjghdLsP_t8J
... continuing from earlier post
TKTE - p. 41
"It is possible to know all the truth found in the letter of truth and still be the branch that withers away, unless we live so completely in the Word and let this Word live in us so that the Very Spirit dwells in us-the Spirit of God in man. No man is devoid of It, but most of us are as unaware of It as we are of the blood coursing through our veins. God is with us, God's presence fills all space, the Spirit of God dwells in us. But how many have felt that presence? It is talked about, prayed for, theorized over, and sermonized about; but It is not experienced! It is the conscious awareness, the actual feeling or realization of the Presence, which is necessary."
PTP - pp. 21-22
It is possible to know all the truth found in the letter of truth and still be a branch that withereth, until we so abide in the Word and let this Word abide in us that the very Spirit of God. There is a Spirit in man. There actually is a Spirit - the Spirit of God in man. No man is devoid of it, but most of us are as unaware of it as we are of the blood coursing through our bodies. God is with us. God's presence fills all space; the Spirit of God dwells in us. But how many people have felt that Presence? It is talked about, prayed about, theorized about, and sermonized about; but It is not experienced. It is the conscious awareness, the actual feeling or realization of the Presence which is necessary.
TKTE - p. 41
"In most religious teachings, we are told that God is everywhere, but this is not true in the sense of prevalence. If the Spirit of God were everywhere, all persons would be free, healthy, wealthy, independent, joyous, and harmonious. The Spirit of God is present only where It is Realized. This is why we are all trying to become channels for Spirit."
PTP - p. 22
In most religious teachings, we are told that the Spirit God is everywhere, but that is not true. If the Spirit of the Lord were everywhere, everybody would be free, healthy, wealthy, independent, joyous, and harmonious. No. the Spirit of the Lord is present only where it is realized.
TKTE - p. 41
"Unless we feel the actual presence of God, then as far as we are concerned, we do not have the realization of this Spirit. It is like electricity (which is everywhere, just as the Spirit of God is), but electricity is of little use or value to anyone unless it is connected in some way for a particular use. So it is with the Spirit of God. It is everywhere in an absolute, spiritual sense, but It is only effective in our experience to the extent to which It is realized."
PTP - p. 22-23
Unless we feel the actual presence of God, then, as far as we are concerned, we do not have this Spirit. Again, it is a case of rolling up the window shades, or it is like saying that electricity is everywhere. That is true. Electricity is everywhere just as the Spirit of God is everywhere. Electricity, however, will be of no value to us, unless it is connected in some way for our particular use. So it is with this Spirit of God. It is everywhere, in an absolute, spiritual sense, but It is only effective in our experience to the extent to which It is realized.
TKTE - pp. 41-42
"Anyone following the path of ECKANKAR cannot go through a day satisfied that he has read some truth in the morning or that he is going to hear some truth in the afternoon or evening. There must be a conscious realization of truth going on all the time. This does not mean he is going to neglect his human duties and activities. It means that he is going to train himself to have some area in his consciousness always active in truth. Whether we look at the forms of nature as trees, flowers, or oceans, or whether we are meeting people, we find some measure of God in each experience. We train ourselves to behold the presence and activity of God in everything around us and live within the Word."
PTP - p. 23
The student of spiritual wisdom cannot go through his day, satisfied that he has read some truth in the morning, or that he is going to hear some truth in the afternoon or evening. There must be a conscious activity of truth going on all the time. That does not mean that we neglect our human duties and activities; it means that we train himself to have some area of consciousness always active in truth. Whether we look out at forms of nature such as trees, flowers, or oceans, or whether we are meeting people, we find some measure of God in each experience. We train ourselves to behold the presence and activity of God in everything around us and to abide in the Word.
TKTE - p. 42
"So it is important to learn all that we can about the correct letter of truth, to understand every principle and then to practice these principles until we go from an intellectual knowledge to an inner awareness of them. We build our foundation on specific principles. Some of these principles are found in all scriptures, but mainly in the Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad, the Way of the Eternal."
PTP - pp. 23-24
It is important to learn all that we can about the correct letter of truth, to understand every principle, and then to practice these principles until we go from an intellectual knowledge to an inner awareness of them. We build our foundation on specific principles. Some of these principles are found in scripture: Christian, Hebrew, and Oriental. Some of them are not found in any written form, but nevertheless, they are known to all the mystics of the world. The further we go in this work, the more necessary it is that we know every one of these principles. They are the foundation of our understanding and they must become so much a part of us that when we are faced with a problem, we do not have to think consciously of any of them.
TKTE - p. 41
"The deeper we go into this work, the more necessary it is that we know every one of these principles. They are the foundation of our understanding, and they must become so much a part of us that when we are faced with a problem we do not have to consciously think of them.
"Someday I will give these principles to you for publication. An understanding of the principles of spiritual living - that is, a knowledge of the correct letter of truth - is necessary. That is the foundation upon which we build, so that we understand where we are going and why, and what our relationship is to God. It is necessary that we know these things so that we do not stumble in a blind faith that at some time or another may desert us. We need to know the correct letter of truth so that we do not find ourselves in a state of mental chaos, relying on one thing today and another tomorrow, never coming to an understanding of God - the nature and character of God, the nature of God's law, and the nature of God's being."
PTP - p. 25
An understanding of the principles of spiritual living, that is, a knowledge of the correct letter of truth, is necessary. That is the foundation upon which we build, so that we understand where we are going and why, and what our relationship to God and our fellowman is. It is necessary that we know these things so that we do not stumble into a blind faith that at some time or another may desert us. We need to know the correct letter of truth in order that we do not find ourselves in a state of mental chaos, relying on one thing today and on another tomorrow, never coming to an understanding of that which is. A spiritual life cannot be built without an understanding of God - the nature and character of God, the nature of God's law, and the nature of God's being.
TKTE - p. 42
"It is possible for anyone to change the trend of his life, not by hearing or reading truth, but by making it an active part of his consciousness in daily experience, until it becomes a habit every moment of the day, instead of an occasional thought. Let God operate in the consciousness morning, noon, and night until the actual awareness comes gradually. Then we make the transition from being hearers of the Word to being doers of the Word. Then we shall be living in the world and shall gather in the harvest of Souls."
PTP - p. 26
It is possible for anyone to change the trend of his life, not by hearing or reading truth, but by making it an active part of his consciousness in daily experience, until it becomes a habit every moment of the day, instead of an occasional thought. Let these principles operate in the consciousness morning, noon, and night, until gradually the actual awareness comes. Then we make the transition from being hearers of the Word to being doers of the Word. Then we shall be abiding in the Word and shall bear fruit richly. [... .]
***
OK that's about the best I can do right now for the similarities between Twitchell and Goldsmith that I've found so far. I have them all in a different format, and where the paragraphs are not broken up, that might be possible to share in the future. I also have examples from the other authors listed on this thread. Bear in mind I am still researching Paul Twitchell's book The Key to Eckankar and may not have found all similarities (near and exact) to date when the book (or what Rebazar Tarzs reportedly said) is compared with other authors and their books. Most of them copyrighted.
There is also Harold Klemp's Introduction for the 2003 version of TKTE that I want to append to this thread. Along with what he had to say about Rebazar Tarzs.
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.religion.eckankar/Wle6bykppIc/v_i6BDdTBjkJ
"Spiritual consciousness is attained through the activity of truth in consciousness. Dwelling on scriptural quotations or statements of truth helps to spiritualize thought. The more truth we read and hear, the more truth is active in our consciousness. We learn to abide in the world by putting truth into ourselves. This is the first step on the way to God."
Based on: The Key to Eckankar - Twitchell
"Spiritual consciousness is attained through the activity of truth in consciousness. Dwelling on scriptural quotations or statements of truth helps to spiritualize thought. The more truth that we read and hear, the more active is truth in our consciousness. Thus we learn to abide in the Word. This is the first step on the Way."
Based on: Practicing The Presence - Goldsmith
[Note: Goldsmith says: "Thus we learn to abide in the Word." where Eckankar says: "We learn to abide in the world ... ." Typo???]
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.religion.eckankar/nD2iq5AOBzc/4T8Ss0btEFEJ
Paul Twitchell and Harold Klemp both made remarks about Rebazar Tarzs. Paul, reportedly taking down Rebazar's dictation and Harold Klemp further remarking about
(1) the "conversation" "His [Rebazar Tarzs'] conversation with Paul ..."]
and
(2) the "dialogue" ["... the dialogue between Rebazar Tarzs and Paul ... ."]
and Harold also (in some respects)
(3) attempting to explain what Rebazar Tarzs meant.
On this newsgroup (and in so many words) it was suggested, even stated, that plagiarisms do not discount the verity of Eck Masters. Iow, that plagiarisms (by the founder of Eckankar, that were not exactly words from Eck Masters, but rather words copied from library books and credited to certain Eck Masters, etc.) have as if nothing to do with whether Eck Masters are real, or not. It almost looks to me as if some people would rather like to sweep the study and illustration for a "growing list" of plagiarisms out of the way and off of this newsgroup. Although this action is not entirely certain, what is certain are the number of personal "attacks" and ridicule, etc. of those choosing to bring up and maintain a discussion and deeper study of this topic.
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.religion.eckankar/nD2iq5AOBzc/vlRM7X8Eke8J
"Is Eckankar a cult?
"No.
"The ECK teachings are based on compassion, respect, personal responsibility, and giving others freedom. It is against spiritual law to push one's beliefs on others or to hold anyone to a spiritual path. [... .]"
http://www.eckankar.org/FAQ/index.html#cult
*********
The word "beliefs" has an interesting context here.
"It is against spiritual law to push one's beliefs on others ..."
Question;
"What about belief in Rebazar Tarzs and other Eck Masters? Harold Klemp, the leader of Eckankar (See; The Key to Eckankar) appears to "speak for" Rebazar Tarzs. Is this the truth? Or is this Harold's belief?
In his Introduction for Fourth Printing (1985) of The Key to Eckankar, Harold Klemp referenced Rebazar Tarzs. Harold wrote: [...] Rebazar Tarzs says that the individual first has to get "the correct letter of truth" before he can live in the spirit of truth. He tells how this is done. [... .]
(See full Introduction for more insights and context.)
http://tinyurl.com/o2ozxuo
The Key to Eckankar section about "correct letter of truth" is one that very closely resembles the writings in Joel S. Goldsmith's book, Practicing the Presence of God - 1958 Iow, the words "correct letter of truth" appeared years before The Key to Eckankar book came out in 1968.
Some sample quotes (from a much larger section of correspondences covering over a dozen paragraphs in consecutive order) illustrating similarity between the writings of Joel S. Goldsmith and the words of Paul Twitchell and Rebazar Tarzs.
***
"Spiritual consciousness is attained through the activity of truth in consciousness. Dwelling on scriptural quotations or statements of truth helps to spiritualize thought. The more truth we read and hear, the more truth is active in our consciousness. We learn to abide in the world by putting truth into ourselves. This is the first step on the way to God."
Based on: The Key to Eckankar - Twitchell
"Spiritual consciousness is attained through the activity of truth in consciousness. Dwelling on scriptural quotations or statements of truth helps to spiritualize thought. The more truth that we read and hear, the more active is truth in our consciousness. Thus we learn to abide in the Word. This is the first step on the Way."
Based on: Practicing The Presence - Goldsmith
[Note: Goldsmith says: "Thus we learn to abide in the Word." where Eckankar says: "We learn to abide in the world ... ." Typo???]
***
"Yaubl Sacabi told me long ago, 'Let my spirit dwell in you. And so shall the SUGMAD be exalted so that you will bear the harvest of good deeds.'
"To live in this truth, to abide in the Word, is to bear the harvest of all things in the richest manner: that is, to live harmoniously in the spiritual senses. But if we forget to live in the Word, to abide in It, and let It live in us, we become as the branch of a tree that is cut off and withers away."
Based on: The Key to Eckankar - Twitchell
Jesus tells us to let "my words abide in you. ... Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit." To live in that truth, to abide in that Word, is to bear fruit richly, that is, to live harmoniously, spiritual lives. But if we forget to live in the Word, to abide in it, and let it abide in us, we become as branches that are cut off and wither. [...]
Based on: Practicing The Presence - Goldsmith
***
"How can we live in the Word if we do not know It? We must know the Truth. We must learn what the correct letter of truth is. Let us have a principle with which to work, and let us stand on this principle, until the moment comes when we feel that spiritual awareness within us is realized. Then we shall know that we have attained the spirit of truth, the consciousness of truth, which is the Word of the SUGMAD and is power. Anyone with a sufficient desire for a realization of God can achieve that realization - the grace of God will guarantee it."
Based on: The Key to Eckankar - Twitchell
[...] How can we abide in this Word if we do not know it? We must know the truth. We must learn what the correct letter of truth is. Let us have a specific principle with which to work and let us stand on that principle, until the moment comes when we feel that spiritual awareness within us, which is realization. Then we shall know that we have attained the spirit of truth, the consciousness of truth, which is the Word of God and is power. Anyone with a sufficient desire for a realization of God will guarantee it."
Based on: Practicing The Presence - Goldsmith
[Note: All illustrations here should be checked for typos.]
http://www.scribd.com/doc/218780789/82916572-Practicing-the-Presence-of-God-Joel-S-Goldsmith-1
*********
The official Eckankar website has a link about Rebazar Tarzs.
http://www.eckankar.org/Masters/Rebazar/index.html
This link is response to a frequently asked question.
Begin quote ...
Do the ECK Masters really exist?
The ECK Masters are real.
People from all over the world and from all walks of life have had personal experiences with the ECK Masters years before Paul Twitchell brought them to the public eye.
Many people who have never heard of Eckankar recognize ECK Masters from their dreams and other encounters.
Here on the Eckankar Web site, you can read some of these stories and see pictures of some of these ECK Masters.
Better yet, meet them for yourself. That's the real proof for any spiritual seeker.
The book Those Wonderful ECK Masters (link opens in a new window) gives spiritual exercises to help you receive personal guidance from an ECK Master.
... end quote.
http://www.eckankar.org/FAQ/index.html#eckmasters
From at least the 1970s - over 40 years ago - Eckankar has received feedback about examples of dubious biographical information surrounding what so many "Eck Masters" reportedly said, or wrote; along with a growing number of plagiarism examples and/or verbatim matches between the Eckankar writings and the writings of other gurus and New Age authors, etc.
HOWEVER, when historical evidence of Eckankar masters is presented in story form, or according to what the Eckankar founder wrote, WHERE are all the examples of paraphrase and plagiarism showing convincing evidence for the very real prospect that Paul Twitchell, or somebody, took from the writings of other authors and used them like a literary device to animate a historical record of Eckankar masters?
It appears to me that a propaganda campaign has been carried forward for a good number of years in which stories that support the belief of "real" Eck masters are promoted, whereas stories and black and white evidence to the contrary is NOT so much promoted.
*********
"The ECK teachings are based on compassion, respect, personal responsibility, and giving others freedom. It is against spiritual law to push one's beliefs on others or to hold anyone to a spiritual path. [... .]"
http://www.eckankar.org/FAQ/index.html#cult
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.religion.eckankar/AEhzOYFzWck/dsFcIwx7KKUJ
https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups&hl=en#!searchin/alt.religion.eckankar/The$20Key$20to$20Eckankar|sort:date/alt.religion.eckankar/ae1tfX28RMk/utNnWx_GSqoJ
https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups&hl=en#!searchin/alt.religion.eckankar/The$20Key$20to$20Eckankar|sort:date/alt.religion.eckankar/C6u9t1O-MpE/OAkXUTY7ns4J
https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups&hl=en#!searchin/alt.religion.eckankar/The$20Key$20to$20Eckankar|sort:date/alt.religion.eckankar/OB416Fe7BmA/Ja3co0ofzbgJ

some more into the objective. some more into the subjective. some try to find balance between them. like any good Taoist, balance is the key. ;o)

[Etznab]

Post by Etznab
Some of my findings, so far, about Paul Twitchell's book, The Key to Eckankar.
The Key to Eckankar is about 43 pages of text. Similarities (near or exact) between text for The Key to Eckankar and writings of Neville Goddard appear on, or about pp. 5-6; the writings of Talbot Mundy, p. 6; Neville Goddard pp. 6-7; Thomas Troward, pp. 8-9; Talbot Mundy, p. 14; Neville Goddard, p. 17; Joel Goldsmith, p. 19; Talbot Mundy, pp. 23-25, 27; Scientology Dynamics, p. 27; Neville Goddard, p. 28; Scientology Axioms, p. 37; Joel Goldsmith, pp. 40-42.
This is a list of the books and links.
The Power of Awareness, Neville Goddard (1952)
http://ia600202.us.archive.org/11/items/ThePowerOfAwareness/Neville_ThePowerOfAwareness.pdf
Old Ugly Face, Talbot Mundy (1940)
http://arthursclassicnovels.com/mundy/ugfa10.html
Lectures on Mental Science, Thomas Troward (1909)
http://www.archive.org/stream/edinburghlecture00trow#page/n7/mode/2up
Scientology, Hubbard (1950s?)
http://learn.scientology.org/wis4_12.htm
Practicing the Presence, Joel S. Goldsmith (1958)
http://www.scribd.com/doc/82916572/Practicing-the-Presence-of-God-Joel-S-Goldsmith
The Key to Eckankar ("1968")
https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B0KObtCQpPKbZDhiNjhkZmQtNjI5Yy00ZTZlLWJjZDYtYjY3Yzg1Y2I4Mzhj/edit?pli=1
Today I finished illustrating some similarities (near and exact) between Paul Twitchell (1968) and Joel Goldsmith (1958). The length includes about fourteen paragraphs from The Key to Eckankar and I'm not quite sure how to begin sharing them here. Maybe I can do it paragraph by paragraph.
I will begin with quoting The Key to Eckankar (in which case Rebazar Tarzs is reportedly the speaker; so the text mostly appears in quotes), followed by the approximate page numbers (for TKTE). After that I will illustrate corresponding quotes by Goldsmith, as is.
"We only have to prove this in one direction and we shall have it proved in every direction. The whole secret lies in the word heart, or what we call consciousness. An intellectual knowledge of the fact that God is All is of no value. The only value any truth has is in the degree of its realization. Truth fully realized via ECKANKAR is spiritual consciousness. If we are conscious of the presence of the Lord, if we are conscious of the activity of God, then so we will see all of life through that understanding."
PTP - Goldsmith (2nd paragraph, p. 19)
The whole secret lies in the word "consciousness". An intellectual knowledge of the fact that God is all is of no value. The only value any truth has is in the degree of its realization. Truth realized is spiritual consciousness. If we are conscious of the presence of the Lord, if we are conscious of the activity of God, then so it is unto us.
http://www.scribd.com/doc/82916572/Practicing-the-Presence-of-God-Joel-S-Goldsmith
TKTE - p. 40
"Spiritual consciousness is attained through the activity of truth in consciousness. Dwelling on scriptural quotations or statements of truth helps to spiritualize thought. The more truth we read and hear, the more truth is active in our consciousness. We learn to abide in the world by putting truth into ourselves. This is the first step on the way to God."
PTP - p. 20
Spiritual consciousness is attained through the activity of truth in consciousness. Dwelling on scriptural quotations or statements of truth helps to spiritualize thought. The more truth that we read and hear, the more active is truth in our consciousness. Thus we learn to abide in the Word. This is the first step on the Way.
TKTE - p. 40
"The second step cannot be taken unless the first step has been mastered, that is, knowing the letter of truth. All the years we spend in reading truth, attending services, lectures, and classes are fruitful in leading us to that point where inspiration flows from within our own being. This inspiration, however, usually comes only after a thorough grounding in the letter of truth."
PTP - p. 21
The second step, which leads to a state of consciousness where we are receptive and responsive to the still small voice, cannot be taken, however, unless the first step has been mastered, that is, knowing the letter of truth. All the years that a person has spent in reading truth, hearing truth, thinking truth, attending church services, lectures, or classes are fruitful in leading him to that point where inspiration flows from within his own being. This inspiration, however, usually comes only after a thorough grounding in the letter of truth.
TKTE - p. 40
"Yaubl Sacabi told me long ago, 'Let my spirit dwell in you. And so shall the SUGMAD be exalted so that you will bear the harvest of good deeds.'
"To live in this truth, to abide in the Word, is to bear the harvest of all things in the richest manner: that is, to live harmoniously in the spiritual senses. But if we forget to live in the Word, to abide in It, and let It live in us, we become as the branch of a tree that is cut off and withers away.
"How can we live in the Word if we do not know It? We must know the Truth. We must learn what the correct letter of truth is. Let us have a principle with which to work, and let us stand on this principle, until the moment comes when we feel that spiritual awareness within us is realized. Then we shall know that we have attained the spirit of truth, the consciousness of truth, which is the Word of the SUGMAD and is power. Anyone with a sufficient desire for a realization of God can achieve that realization - the grace of God will guarantee it.
PTP - p. 21
Jesus tells us to let "my words abide in you. ... Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit." To live in that truth, to abide in that Word, is to bear fruit richly, that is, to live harmoniously, spiritual lives. But if we forget to live in the Word, to abide in it, and let it abide in us, we become as branches that are cut off and wither. How can we abide in this Word if we do not know it? We must know the truth. We must learn that the correct letter of truth is. Let us have a specific principle with which to work and let us stand on that principle, until the moment comes when we feel that spiritual awareness within us, which is realization. Then we shall know that we have attained the spirit of truth, the consciouness of truth, which is the Word of God and is power. Anyone with a sufficient desire for a realization of God will guarantee it.
[Keep in mind Joel S. Goldsmith's book was called Practicing The Presence and that another phrase he used (and a book by that same name) was called The Infinite Way.]
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.religion.eckankar/Wle6bykppIc/SjghdLsP_t8J
... continuing from earlier post
TKTE - p. 41
"It is possible to know all the truth found in the letter of truth and still be the branch that withers away, unless we live so completely in the Word and let this Word live in us so that the Very Spirit dwells in us-the Spirit of God in man. No man is devoid of It, but most of us are as unaware of It as we are of the blood coursing through our veins. God is with us, God's presence fills all space, the Spirit of God dwells in us. But how many have felt that presence? It is talked about, prayed for, theorized over, and sermonized about; but It is not experienced! It is the conscious awareness, the actual feeling or realization of the Presence, which is necessary."
PTP - pp. 21-22
It is possible to know all the truth found in the letter of truth and still be a branch that withereth, until we so abide in the Word and let this Word abide in us that the very Spirit of God. There is a Spirit in man. There actually is a Spirit - the Spirit of God in man. No man is devoid of it, but most of us are as unaware of it as we are of the blood coursing through our bodies. God is with us. God's presence fills all space; the Spirit of God dwells in us. But how many people have felt that Presence? It is talked about, prayed about, theorized about, and sermonized about; but It is not experienced. It is the conscious awareness, the actual feeling or realization of the Presence which is necessary.
TKTE - p. 41
"In most religious teachings, we are told that God is everywhere, but this is not true in the sense of prevalence. If the Spirit of God were everywhere, all persons would be free, healthy, wealthy, independent, joyous, and harmonious. The Spirit of God is present only where It is Realized. This is why we are all trying to become channels for Spirit."
PTP - p. 22
In most religious teachings, we are told that the Spirit God is everywhere, but that is not true. If the Spirit of the Lord were everywhere, everybody would be free, healthy, wealthy, independent, joyous, and harmonious. No. the Spirit of the Lord is present only where it is realized.
TKTE - p. 41
"Unless we feel the actual presence of God, then as far as we are concerned, we do not have the realization of this Spirit. It is like electricity (which is everywhere, just as the Spirit of God is), but electricity is of little use or value to anyone unless it is connected in some way for a particular use. So it is with the Spirit of God. It is everywhere in an absolute, spiritual sense, but It is only effective in our experience to the extent to which It is realized."
PTP - p. 22-23
Unless we feel the actual presence of God, then, as far as we are concerned, we do not have this Spirit. Again, it is a case of rolling up the window shades, or it is like saying that electricity is everywhere. That is true. Electricity is everywhere just as the Spirit of God is everywhere. Electricity, however, will be of no value to us, unless it is connected in some way for our particular use. So it is with this Spirit of God. It is everywhere, in an absolute, spiritual sense, but It is only effective in our experience to the extent to which It is realized.
TKTE - pp. 41-42
"Anyone following the path of ECKANKAR cannot go through a day satisfied that he has read some truth in the morning or that he is going to hear some truth in the afternoon or evening. There must be a conscious realization of truth going on all the time. This does not mean he is going to neglect his human duties and activities. It means that he is going to train himself to have some area in his consciousness always active in truth. Whether we look at the forms of nature as trees, flowers, or oceans, or whether we are meeting people, we find some measure of God in each experience. We train ourselves to behold the presence and activity of God in everything around us and live within the Word."
PTP - p. 23
The student of spiritual wisdom cannot go through his day, satisfied that he has read some truth in the morning, or that he is going to hear some truth in the afternoon or evening. There must be a conscious activity of truth going on all the time. That does not mean that we neglect our human duties and activities; it means that we train himself to have some area of consciousness always active in truth. Whether we look out at forms of nature such as trees, flowers, or oceans, or whether we are meeting people, we find some measure of God in each experience. We train ourselves to behold the presence and activity of God in everything around us and to abide in the Word.
TKTE - p. 42
"So it is important to learn all that we can about the correct letter of truth, to understand every principle and then to practice these principles until we go from an intellectual knowledge to an inner awareness of them. We build our foundation on specific principles. Some of these principles are found in all scriptures, but mainly in the Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad, the Way of the Eternal."
PTP - pp. 23-24
It is important to learn all that we can about the correct letter of truth, to understand every principle, and then to practice these principles until we go from an intellectual knowledge to an inner awareness of them. We build our foundation on specific principles. Some of these principles are found in scripture: Christian, Hebrew, and Oriental. Some of them are not found in any written form, but nevertheless, they are known to all the mystics of the world. The further we go in this work, the more necessary it is that we know every one of these principles. They are the foundation of our understanding and they must become so much a part of us that when we are faced with a problem, we do not have to think consciously of any of them.
TKTE - p. 41
"The deeper we go into this work, the more necessary it is that we know every one of these principles. They are the foundation of our understanding, and they must become so much a part of us that when we are faced with a problem we do not have to consciously think of them.
"Someday I will give these principles to you for publication. An understanding of the principles of spiritual living - that is, a knowledge of the correct letter of truth - is necessary. That is the foundation upon which we build, so that we understand where we are going and why, and what our relationship is to God. It is necessary that we know these things so that we do not stumble in a blind faith that at some time or another may desert us. We need to know the correct letter of truth so that we do not find ourselves in a state of mental chaos, relying on one thing today and another tomorrow, never coming to an understanding of God - the nature and character of God, the nature of God's law, and the nature of God's being."
PTP - p. 25
An understanding of the principles of spiritual living, that is, a knowledge of the correct letter of truth, is necessary. That is the foundation upon which we build, so that we understand where we are going and why, and what our relationship to God and our fellowman is. It is necessary that we know these things so that we do not stumble into a blind faith that at some time or another may desert us. We need to know the correct letter of truth in order that we do not find ourselves in a state of mental chaos, relying on one thing today and on another tomorrow, never coming to an understanding of that which is. A spiritual life cannot be built without an understanding of God - the nature and character of God, the nature of God's law, and the nature of God's being.
TKTE - p. 42
"It is possible for anyone to change the trend of his life, not by hearing or reading truth, but by making it an active part of his consciousness in daily experience, until it becomes a habit every moment of the day, instead of an occasional thought. Let God operate in the consciousness morning, noon, and night until the actual awareness comes gradually. Then we make the transition from being hearers of the Word to being doers of the Word. Then we shall be living in the world and shall gather in the harvest of Souls."
PTP - p. 26
It is possible for anyone to change the trend of his life, not by hearing or reading truth, but by making it an active part of his consciousness in daily experience, until it becomes a habit every moment of the day, instead of an occasional thought. Let these principles operate in the consciousness morning, noon, and night, until gradually the actual awareness comes. Then we make the transition from being hearers of the Word to being doers of the Word. Then we shall be abiding in the Word and shall bear fruit richly. [... .]
***
OK that's about the best I can do right now for the similarities between Twitchell and Goldsmith that I've found so far. I have them all in a different format, and where the paragraphs are not broken up, that might be possible to share in the future. I also have examples from the other authors listed on this thread. Bear in mind I am still researching Paul Twitchell's book The Key to Eckankar and may not have found all similarities (near and exact) to date when the book (or what Rebazar Tarzs reportedly said) is compared with other authors and their books. Most of them copyrighted.
There is also Harold Klemp's Introduction for the 2003 version of TKTE that I want to append to this thread. Along with what he had to say about Rebazar Tarzs.
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.religion.eckankar/Wle6bykppIc/v_i6BDdTBjkJ
"Spiritual consciousness is attained through the activity of truth in consciousness. Dwelling on scriptural quotations or statements of truth helps to spiritualize thought. The more truth we read and hear, the more truth is active in our consciousness. We learn to abide in the world by putting truth into ourselves. This is the first step on the way to God."
Based on: The Key to Eckankar - Twitchell
"Spiritual consciousness is attained through the activity of truth in consciousness. Dwelling on scriptural quotations or statements of truth helps to spiritualize thought. The more truth that we read and hear, the more active is truth in our consciousness. Thus we learn to abide in the Word. This is the first step on the Way."
Based on: Practicing The Presence - Goldsmith
[Note: Goldsmith says: "Thus we learn to abide in the Word." where Eckankar says: "We learn to abide in the world ... ." Typo???]
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.religion.eckankar/nD2iq5AOBzc/4T8Ss0btEFEJ
Paul Twitchell and Harold Klemp both made remarks about Rebazar Tarzs. Paul, reportedly taking down Rebazar's dictation and Harold Klemp further remarking about
(1) the "conversation" "His [Rebazar Tarzs'] conversation with Paul ..."]
and
(2) the "dialogue" ["... the dialogue between Rebazar Tarzs and Paul ... ."]
and Harold also (in some respects)
(3) attempting to explain what Rebazar Tarzs meant.
On this newsgroup (and in so many words) it was suggested, even stated, that plagiarisms do not discount the verity of Eck Masters. Iow, that plagiarisms (by the founder of Eckankar, that were not exactly words from Eck Masters, but rather words copied from library books and credited to certain Eck Masters, etc.) have as if nothing to do with whether Eck Masters are real, or not. It almost looks to me as if some people would rather like to sweep the study and illustration for a "growing list" of plagiarisms out of the way and off of this newsgroup. Although this action is not entirely certain, what is certain are the number of personal "attacks" and ridicule, etc. of those choosing to bring up and maintain a discussion and deeper study of this topic.
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.religion.eckankar/nD2iq5AOBzc/vlRM7X8Eke8J
"Is Eckankar a cult?
"No.
"The ECK teachings are based on compassion, respect, personal responsibility, and giving others freedom. It is against spiritual law to push one's beliefs on others or to hold anyone to a spiritual path. [... .]"
http://www.eckankar.org/FAQ/index.html#cult
*********
The word "beliefs" has an interesting context here.
"It is against spiritual law to push one's beliefs on others ..."
Question;
"What about belief in Rebazar Tarzs and other Eck Masters? Harold Klemp, the leader of Eckankar (See; The Key to Eckankar) appears to "speak for" Rebazar Tarzs. Is this the truth? Or is this Harold's belief?
In his Introduction for Fourth Printing (1985) of The Key to Eckankar, Harold Klemp referenced Rebazar Tarzs. Harold wrote: [...] Rebazar Tarzs says that the individual first has to get "the correct letter of truth" before he can live in the spirit of truth. He tells how this is done. [... .]
(See full Introduction for more insights and context.)
http://tinyurl.com/o2ozxuo
The Key to Eckankar section about "correct letter of truth" is one that very closely resembles the writings in Joel S. Goldsmith's book, Practicing the Presence of God - 1958 Iow, the words "correct letter of truth" appeared years before The Key to Eckankar book came out in 1968.
Some sample quotes (from a much larger section of correspondences covering over a dozen paragraphs in consecutive order) illustrating similarity between the writings of Joel S. Goldsmith and the words of Paul Twitchell and Rebazar Tarzs.
***
"Spiritual consciousness is attained through the activity of truth in consciousness. Dwelling on scriptural quotations or statements of truth helps to spiritualize thought. The more truth we read and hear, the more truth is active in our consciousness. We learn to abide in the world by putting truth into ourselves. This is the first step on the way to God."
Based on: The Key to Eckankar - Twitchell
"Spiritual consciousness is attained through the activity of truth in consciousness. Dwelling on scriptural quotations or statements of truth helps to spiritualize thought. The more truth that we read and hear, the more active is truth in our consciousness. Thus we learn to abide in the Word. This is the first step on the Way."
Based on: Practicing The Presence - Goldsmith
[Note: Goldsmith says: "Thus we learn to abide in the Word." where Eckankar says: "We learn to abide in the world ... ." Typo???]
***
"Yaubl Sacabi told me long ago, 'Let my spirit dwell in you. And so shall the SUGMAD be exalted so that you will bear the harvest of good deeds.'
"To live in this truth, to abide in the Word, is to bear the harvest of all things in the richest manner: that is, to live harmoniously in the spiritual senses. But if we forget to live in the Word, to abide in It, and let It live in us, we become as the branch of a tree that is cut off and withers away."
Based on: The Key to Eckankar - Twitchell
Jesus tells us to let "my words abide in you. ... Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit." To live in that truth, to abide in that Word, is to bear fruit richly, that is, to live harmoniously, spiritual lives. But if we forget to live in the Word, to abide in it, and let it abide in us, we become as branches that are cut off and wither. [...]
Based on: Practicing The Presence - Goldsmith
***
"How can we live in the Word if we do not know It? We must know the Truth. We must learn what the correct letter of truth is. Let us have a principle with which to work, and let us stand on this principle, until the moment comes when we feel that spiritual awareness within us is realized. Then we shall know that we have attained the spirit of truth, the consciousness of truth, which is the Word of the SUGMAD and is power. Anyone with a sufficient desire for a realization of God can achieve that realization - the grace of God will guarantee it."
Based on: The Key to Eckankar - Twitchell
[...] How can we abide in this Word if we do not know it? We must know the truth. We must learn what the correct letter of truth is. Let us have a specific principle with which to work and let us stand on that principle, until the moment comes when we feel that spiritual awareness within us, which is realization. Then we shall know that we have attained the spirit of truth, the consciousness of truth, which is the Word of God and is power. Anyone with a sufficient desire for a realization of God will guarantee it."
Based on: Practicing The Presence - Goldsmith
[Note: All illustrations here should be checked for typos.]
http://www.scribd.com/doc/218780789/82916572-Practicing-the-Presence-of-God-Joel-S-Goldsmith-1
*********
The official Eckankar website has a link about Rebazar Tarzs.
http://www.eckankar.org/Masters/Rebazar/index.html
This link is response to a frequently asked question.
Begin quote ...
Do the ECK Masters really exist?
The ECK Masters are real.
People from all over the world and from all walks of life have had personal experiences with the ECK Masters years before Paul Twitchell brought them to the public eye.
Many people who have never heard of Eckankar recognize ECK Masters from their dreams and other encounters.
Here on the Eckankar Web site, you can read some of these stories and see pictures of some of these ECK Masters.
Better yet, meet them for yourself. That's the real proof for any spiritual seeker.
The book Those Wonderful ECK Masters (link opens in a new window) gives spiritual exercises to help you receive personal guidance from an ECK Master.
... end quote.
http://www.eckankar.org/FAQ/index.html#eckmasters
From at least the 1970s - over 40 years ago - Eckankar has received feedback about examples of dubious biographical information surrounding what so many "Eck Masters" reportedly said, or wrote; along with a growing number of plagiarism examples and/or verbatim matches between the Eckankar writings and the writings of other gurus and New Age authors, etc.
HOWEVER, when historical evidence of Eckankar masters is presented in story form, or according to what the Eckankar founder wrote, WHERE are all the examples of paraphrase and plagiarism showing convincing evidence for the very real prospect that Paul Twitchell, or somebody, took from the writings of other authors and used them like a literary device to animate a historical record of Eckankar masters?
It appears to me that a propaganda campaign has been carried forward for a good number of years in which stories that support the belief of "real" Eck masters are promoted, whereas stories and black and white evidence to the contrary is NOT so much promoted.
*********
"The ECK teachings are based on compassion, respect, personal responsibility, and giving others freedom. It is against spiritual law to push one's beliefs on others or to hold anyone to a spiritual path. [... .]"
http://www.eckankar.org/FAQ/index.html#cult
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.religion.eckankar/AEhzOYFzWck/dsFcIwx7KKUJ
https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups&hl=en#!searchin/alt.religion.eckankar/The$20Key$20to$20Eckankar|sort:date/alt.religion.eckankar/ae1tfX28RMk/utNnWx_GSqoJ
https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups&hl=en#!searchin/alt.religion.eckankar/The$20Key$20to$20Eckankar|sort:date/alt.religion.eckankar/C6u9t1O-MpE/OAkXUTY7ns4J
https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups&hl=en#!searchin/alt.religion.eckankar/The$20Key$20to$20Eckankar|sort:date/alt.religion.eckankar/OB416Fe7BmA/Ja3co0ofzbgJ

The topic of this thread is a question (questions). Backed up by supporting evidence. The questions are elementary.

Not sure where the following fits in.

"Truth isn't justice. Using it to justify results either way is false."

[fife]

Truth isn't justice, etc. Same as "the ends don't justify the means".