Origin of Name SUGMAD

[c***@gmail.com]

i have some insights coming from either an external source like the Mahanta (an inner spiritual guide for members of ECKANKAR), or an inner source or my own higher self or Soul:

[a] SUGMAD to me stands for SUGar MADness, since there is speculation that "God" or the "Creator" was believed to have been a mountain man who lived in nature and developed himself spiritually enough to create all the heavens and
infrastructure for karma and reincarnation. however, living off fruits and berries, seeds, and plants, the sugar in the fruits made him slightly off-balance and so creation was imperfect. in fact the sanskrit translation of shariyat-ki-sugmad is; "in the beginning was the sugar madness".

[b] HU is the only sound left after eliminating so many other contenders that achieved the following:

i). vibrated the physical body enough to "shake up" the toxins that hampered spiritual clarity, wisdom, and intuition.
ii). it is also open-ended in the fact that it went clear through the body with minimal harshness and disruption, realigning the atoms of the body that had been messed up due to toxic intakes, disease, parasites, virus, bacteria, illness, etc. much like repacking the brake-bearings on a car.
iii). it was a short form of the christian corruption; halleluja (HU,,,alla HU,,,halleluja).
iv). it has been found in buddhist text, islamic text, chinese text, and referenced by poets through the centuries. for example; "to be united to the core of another is to breathe the word HU - empty of self, but filled with love." rumi.

[Kinpa]

Post by c***@gmail.com
[a] SUGMAD to me stands for SUGar MADness, since there is speculation that "God" or the "Creator" was believed to have been a mountain man who lived in nature and developed himself spiritually enough to create all the heavens and
infrastructure for karma and reincarnation. however, living off fruits and berries, seeds, and plants, the sugar in the fruits made him slightly off-balance and so creation was imperfect. in fact the sanskrit translation of shariyat-ki-sugmad is; "in the beginning was the sugar madness".
i). vibrated the physical body enough to "shake up" the toxins that hampered spiritual clarity, wisdom, and intuition.
ii). it is also open-ended in the fact that it went clear through the body with minimal harshness and disruption, realigning the atoms of the body that had been messed up due to toxic intakes, disease, parasites, virus, bacteria, illness, etc. much like repacking the brake-bearings on a car.
iii). it was a short form of the christian corruption; halleluja (HU,,,alla HU,,,halleluja).
iv). it has been found in buddhist text, islamic text, chinese text, and referenced by poets through the centuries. for example; "to be united to the core of another is to breathe the word HU - empty of self, but filled with love." rumi.

Good for you buckaroo! But does anyone actually care????

[Henosis Sage]

Post by Kinpa

Post by c***@gmail.com
[a] SUGMAD to me stands for SUGar MADness, since there is speculation that "God" or the "Creator" was believed to have been a mountain man who lived in nature and developed himself spiritually enough to create all the heavens and
infrastructure for karma and reincarnation. however, living off fruits and berries, seeds, and plants, the sugar in the fruits made him slightly off-balance and so creation was imperfect. in fact the sanskrit translation of shariyat-ki-sugmad is; "in the beginning was the sugar madness".
i). vibrated the physical body enough to "shake up" the toxins that hampered spiritual clarity, wisdom, and intuition.
ii). it is also open-ended in the fact that it went clear through the body with minimal harshness and disruption, realigning the atoms of the body that had been messed up due to toxic intakes, disease, parasites, virus, bacteria, illness, etc. much like repacking the brake-bearings on a car.
iii). it was a short form of the christian corruption; halleluja (HU,,,alla HU,,,halleluja).
iv). it has been found in buddhist text, islamic text, chinese text, and referenced by poets through the centuries. for example; "to be united to the core of another is to breathe the word HU - empty of self, but filled with love." rumi.

Good for you buckaroo! But does anyone actually care????

---

KINPA Replies to ***@gmail.com

"Good for you buckaroo! But does anyone actually care????"

HS:
I am certain that someone does! Thanks so much for "sharing"
but what's it to you Kinpa anyway?

[Kinpa]

Post by Henosis Sage

Post by Kinpa

Post by c***@gmail.com
[a] SUGMAD to me stands for SUGar MADness, since there is speculation that "God" or the "Creator" was believed to have been a mountain man who lived in nature and developed himself spiritually enough to create all the heavens and
infrastructure for karma and reincarnation. however, living off fruits and berries, seeds, and plants, the sugar in the fruits made him slightly off-balance and so creation was imperfect. in fact the sanskrit translation of shariyat-ki-sugmad is; "in the beginning was the sugar madness".
i). vibrated the physical body enough to "shake up" the toxins that hampered spiritual clarity, wisdom, and intuition.
ii). it is also open-ended in the fact that it went clear through the body with minimal harshness and disruption, realigning the atoms of the body that had been messed up due to toxic intakes, disease, parasites, virus, bacteria, illness, etc. much like repacking the brake-bearings on a car.
iii). it was a short form of the christian corruption; halleluja (HU,,,alla HU,,,halleluja).
iv). it has been found in buddhist text, islamic text, chinese text, and referenced by poets through the centuries. for example; "to be united to the core of another is to breathe the word HU - empty of self, but filled with love." rumi.

Good for you buckaroo! But does anyone actually care????

---
"Good for you buckaroo! But does anyone actually care????"
I am certain that someone does! Thanks so much for "sharing"
but what's it to you Kinpa anyway?

Poor pookie-bear the internet stalker, just keeps running his head into walls like he has been doing for years now. Gets SO angry when he can't find any police or lawyers that are willing to listen to his complaining drivel, which causes him to come online and stalk and make those completely empty threats, with no one but his lil buddy etznabbie to support him.

If you didn't care,you wouldn't have posted any answer at all, but you aren't capable of that. Have a good sleep sonny-Jim, and Love and Light and PERFECT Health for you!!!!!!!

[Henosis Sage]

Post by Kinpa

Post by Henosis Sage

Post by Kinpa

Post by c***@gmail.com
[a] SUGMAD to me stands for SUGar MADness, since there is speculation that "God" or the "Creator" was believed to have been a mountain man who lived in nature and developed himself spiritually enough to create all the heavens and
infrastructure for karma and reincarnation. however, living off fruits and berries, seeds, and plants, the sugar in the fruits made him slightly off-balance and so creation was imperfect. in fact the sanskrit translation of shariyat-ki-sugmad is; "in the beginning was the sugar madness".
i). vibrated the physical body enough to "shake up" the toxins that hampered spiritual clarity, wisdom, and intuition.
ii). it is also open-ended in the fact that it went clear through the body with minimal harshness and disruption, realigning the atoms of the body that had been messed up due to toxic intakes, disease, parasites, virus, bacteria, illness, etc. much like repacking the brake-bearings on a car.
iii). it was a short form of the christian corruption; halleluja (HU,,,alla HU,,,halleluja).
iv). it has been found in buddhist text, islamic text, chinese text, and referenced by poets through the centuries. for example; "to be united to the core of another is to breathe the word HU - empty of self, but filled with love." rumi.

Good for you buckaroo! But does anyone actually care????

---
"Good for you buckaroo! But does anyone actually care????"
I am certain that someone does! Thanks so much for "sharing"
but what's it to you Kinpa anyway?

Poor pookie-bear the internet stalker, just keeps running his head into walls like he has been doing for years now. Gets SO angry when he can't find any police or lawyers that are willing to listen to his complaining drivel, which causes him to come online and stalk and make those completely empty threats, with no one but his lil buddy etznabbie to support him.
If you didn't care,you wouldn't have posted any answer at all, but you aren't capable of that. Have a good sleep sonny-Jim, and Love and Light and PERFECT Health for you!!!!!!!

---

RE: "Love and Light and PERFECT Health for you!!!!!!!"

Screw you asshole - Lying abusive internet stalker and purveyor of darkness and hate.

[Kinpa]

I'm searching/researching on the origin/source of the name "Sugmad" used in
the Eck writings. I know Paul said it was an ancient Chinese name for
God...at other places I've read that it's Persian.
I've done extensive and productive Inet-research on "Hu"...but I'm wondering
if anyone can spare me some re-invention of the wheel...what have you found?
Where does "Sugmad" come from? For example, is it borrowed from the Sufi's?
[I think not. But I did find alot of HU there, for example]
Appreciate any links or guidance....thanx!
Blessings,
_g

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

It really makes no difference, it is simply another word used to refer to the Divine Being....but chances are that it originated from Sarmad which also means "the Eternal."

ALL names and words, number and symbols are mental, and have no ability to be otherwise, and for that reason literally any word can be used so long as the INTENT used therein centers on the Eternal Being of the Absolute which does in fact literally exist. The hardest thing about proving that to one's self is in attaining the direct experience of IT.

To limit the things that come into the Self to being only those that can be obtained from the 5 senses and from the mind, makes itself a wall that blocks any direct experience, but jumping over it and "out of the box" makes achieving it far easier to accomplish.

Free yourself and do not allow yourself to be trapped by the same mental chains that so many others allow to hold them in.

[godzilla]

Kinpa, a completely valid response, thanks your insights.

I still find it interesting that in the 14 years since OP asked, no one has found the unequivocal source of 'SUGMAD' of Paul's writing. Sure I get the logic of why it doesn't matter, etc. I guess it doesn't stop the curiosity, however.

Most everything else Paul wrote about, folks have aligned with some source. But not Sugmad, not yet anyway. Enigmatic it is.

Post by Kinpa

I'm searching/researching on the origin/source of the name "Sugmad" used in
the Eck writings. I know Paul said it was an ancient Chinese name for
God...at other places I've read that it's Persian.
I've done extensive and productive Inet-research on "Hu"...but I'm wondering
if anyone can spare me some re-invention of the wheel...what have you found?
Where does "Sugmad" come from? For example, is it borrowed from the Sufi's?
[I think not. But I did find alot of HU there, for example]
Appreciate any links or guidance....thanx!
Blessings,
_g

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
It really makes no difference, it is simply another word used to refer to the Divine Being....but chances are that it originated from Sarmad which also means "the Eternal."
ALL names and words, number and symbols are mental, and have no ability to be otherwise, and for that reason literally any word can be used so long as the INTENT used therein centers on the Eternal Being of the Absolute which does in fact literally exist. The hardest thing about proving that to one's self is in attaining the direct experience of IT.
To limit the things that come into the Self to being only those that can be obtained from the 5 senses and from the mind, makes itself a wall that blocks any direct experience, but jumping over it and "out of the box" makes achieving it far easier to accomplish.
Free yourself and do not allow yourself to be trapped by the same mental chains that so many others allow to hold them in.

[Etznab]

Post by godzilla
Kinpa, a completely valid response, thanks your insights.
I still find it interesting that in the 14 years since OP asked, no one has found the unequivocal source of 'SUGMAD' of Paul's writing. Sure I get the logic of why it doesn't matter, etc. I guess it doesn't stop the curiosity, however.
Most everything else Paul wrote about, folks have aligned with some source. But not Sugmad, not yet anyway. Enigmatic it is.

Post by Kinpa

I'm searching/researching on the origin/source of the name "Sugmad" used in
the Eck writings. I know Paul said it was an ancient Chinese name for
God...at other places I've read that it's Persian.
I've done extensive and productive Inet-research on "Hu"...but I'm wondering
if anyone can spare me some re-invention of the wheel...what have you found?
Where does "Sugmad" come from? For example, is it borrowed from the Sufi's?
[I think not. But I did find alot of HU there, for example]
Appreciate any links or guidance....thanx!
Blessings,
_g

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
It really makes no difference, it is simply another word used to refer to the Divine Being....but chances are that it originated from Sarmad which also means "the Eternal."
ALL names and words, number and symbols are mental, and have no ability to be otherwise, and for that reason literally any word can be used so long as the INTENT used therein centers on the Eternal Being of the Absolute which does in fact literally exist. The hardest thing about proving that to one's self is in attaining the direct experience of IT.
To limit the things that come into the Self to being only those that can be obtained from the 5 senses and from the mind, makes itself a wall that blocks any direct experience, but jumping over it and "out of the box" makes achieving it far easier to accomplish.
Free yourself and do not allow yourself to be trapped by the same mental chains that so many others allow to hold them in.

It's not like Paul never made up a word. And it's not like he never made up anything (a trait shared also by Kinpa the poop-meister and J.R. the multiple personality); including his fictional birth date. Even Harold went on record (it's on the official Eckankar website) confirming how Paul wrote to someone and lied to them point blank instead of telling the truth. So go figure.

By the way:

2(mwd) sukAma mfn. having good desires MW. ; (%{A}) f. Ficus Heterophylla L. ; (%{-ma})%{-da} mf(%{A})n. abundantly granting desires Hcat. ; %{-vrata} n. a partic. religious observance Cat. (v.l. %{kAmya-v-}).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sukhmani_Sahib

"The word Sukhmani literally means Treasure (Mani) of Peace (Sukh)."

http://www.sanskrit-lexicon.uni-koeln.de/cgi-bin/tamil/recherche

"It is perhaps amusing to note the etymology of the words sukha (pleasure, comfort, bliss) and duḥkha (misery, unhappiness, pain). The ancient Aryans who brought the Sanskrit language to India were a nomadic, horse- and cattle- breeding people who travelled in horse-or ox-drawn vehicles. Su and dus are prefixes indicating good or bad. The word kha, in later Sanskrit meaning "sky," "ether," or "space," was originally the word for "hole," particularly an axle hole of one of the Aryan's vehicles. Thus sukha … meant, originally, "having a
good axle hole," while duhkha meant "having a poor axle hole," leading to discomfort." [2]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dukkha

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.religion.eckankar/o4eqR6t0obE/ibp5gSb6x6wJ

[Kinpa]

Post by Etznab

Post by godzilla
Kinpa, a completely valid response, thanks your insights.
I still find it interesting that in the 14 years since OP asked, no one has found the unequivocal source of 'SUGMAD' of Paul's writing. Sure I get the logic of why it doesn't matter, etc. I guess it doesn't stop the curiosity, however.
Most everything else Paul wrote about, folks have aligned with some source. But not Sugmad, not yet anyway. Enigmatic it is.

Post by Kinpa

I'm searching/researching on the origin/source of the name "Sugmad" used in
the Eck writings. I know Paul said it was an ancient Chinese name for
God...at other places I've read that it's Persian.
I've done extensive and productive Inet-research on "Hu"...but I'm wondering
if anyone can spare me some re-invention of the wheel...what have you found?
Where does "Sugmad" come from? For example, is it borrowed from the Sufi's?
[I think not. But I did find alot of HU there, for example]
Appreciate any links or guidance....thanx!
Blessings,
_g

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
It really makes no difference, it is simply another word used to refer to the Divine Being....but chances are that it originated from Sarmad which also means "the Eternal."
ALL names and words, number and symbols are mental, and have no ability to be otherwise, and for that reason literally any word can be used so long as the INTENT used therein centers on the Eternal Being of the Absolute which does in fact literally exist. The hardest thing about proving that to one's self is in attaining the direct experience of IT.
To limit the things that come into the Self to being only those that can be obtained from the 5 senses and from the mind, makes itself a wall that blocks any direct experience, but jumping over it and "out of the box" makes achieving it far easier to accomplish.
Free yourself and do not allow yourself to be trapped by the same mental chains that so many others allow to hold them in.

It's not like Paul never made up a word. And it's not like he never made up anything (a trait shared also by Kinpa the poop-meister and J.R. the multiple personality); including his fictional birth date. Even Harold went on record (it's on the official Eckankar website) confirming how Paul wrote to someone and lied to them point blank instead of telling the truth. So go figure.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

It is very unfortunate for you that you react in the exact way that you claimed I reacted to you.....your words are proof....the simple fact is, that the info you listed has nothing to do with the subject here....sorry if you had assumed otherwise, but not my problem....I notice that you and sean continually call names to this very day, and that is a shining example of how I have changed, and how the two of you have not~! Thanks SO much for displaying this to everyone~! Be sure to enjoy the karmic repercussions~!!

Post by Etznab
2(mwd) sukAma mfn. having good desires MW. ; (%{A}) f. Ficus Heterophylla L. ; (%{-ma})%{-da} mf(%{A})n. abundantly granting desires Hcat. ; %{-vrata} n. a partic. religious observance Cat. (v.l. %{kAmya-v-}).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sukhmani_Sahib
"The word Sukhmani literally means Treasure (Mani) of Peace (Sukh)."
http://www.sanskrit-lexicon.uni-koeln.de/cgi-bin/tamil/recherche
"It is perhaps amusing to note the etymology of the words sukha (pleasure, comfort, bliss) and duḥkha (misery, unhappiness, pain). The ancient Aryans who brought the Sanskrit language to India were a nomadic, horse- and cattle- breeding people who travelled in horse-or ox-drawn vehicles. Su and dus are prefixes indicating good or bad. The word kha, in later Sanskrit meaning "sky," "ether," or "space," was originally the word for "hole," particularly an axle hole of one of the Aryan's vehicles. Thus sukha … meant, originally, "having a
good axle hole," while duhkha meant "having a poor axle hole," leading to discomfort." [2]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dukkha
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.religion.eckankar/o4eqR6t0obE/ibp5gSb6x6wJ

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
None of the above is relevant in any way....nice try I suppose, but not really worth anything...perhaps you, like sean, believe that there is no such thing as Sugmad....

[Kinpa]

Post by godzilla
Kinpa, a completely valid response, thanks your insights.
I still find it interesting that in the 14 years since OP asked, no one has found the unequivocal source of 'SUGMAD' of Paul's writing. Sure I get the logic of why it doesn't matter, etc. I guess it doesn't stop the curiosity, however.
Most everything else Paul wrote about, folks have aligned with some source. But not Sugmad, not yet anyway. Enigmatic it is.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

This is true, and despite identifying a source fr one term or the other there are 2 in particular that would choose to believe that Paul Twitchell, and any others, have no right to reinterpret any terms in ways other than that source material's interpretations...this is of course unequivocally an extremely limited point of view, that they may of course insist upon, however, the have no right to insist upon it as it concerns any OTHER persons!

THAT is the simple truth of the matter! If Paul Twitchell chose to create the name Sugmad out of thin air, whether based upon the term Sarmad, or any other usage of any aspect of the term Sukhmani, makes absolutely NO difference for the reasons I stated before. ALL words are mere mental substitutions for concepts and ideas, which are also mental things....any Soul CAN experience beyond the mind and emotions, and that is the challenge of the whole idea of spirituality, to actually DO that! I have, and care not even a little bit about what anyone else's opinions of it might be! All the while others continually insist that I hear their opinions....which only makes them seem ever more desperate for recognition that they will never receive, especially being that in every case others have done the research and handed those sources to them.

Regardless of anyone's problems with Doug Marman and the views he has expressed in his book, I simply do not agree, and find his conclusions completely valid, and definitely far more-so than the assertion of one of these persons, that St. Matthew of Christian fame plagiarized some Buddhist texts, which is of course a completely ridiculous idea because of the simple fact that there was no such thing as plagiarism in any country, empire, or culture upon the face of the earth until the early 1700's....in reality the only thing that assertion proves is that Judea was well acquainted with the various systems of wisdom from the near and far East, but even an idiot-savant can easily recognize that!

However, allow me to thank you for stating your own opinion of the matter, and I couldn't care less whether it agrees with mine or doesn't, you have every right to having one of your own, whether or not anyone else agrees with it, and if you are one who also has had any level of inner experience with these concepts, then more power to you for continually seeking ever expanding degrees of experience and understanding!

Post by godzilla

Post by Kinpa

I'm searching/researching on the origin/source of the name "Sugmad" used in
the Eck writings. I know Paul said it was an ancient Chinese name for
God...at other places I've read that it's Persian.
I've done extensive and productive Inet-research on "Hu"...but I'm wondering
if anyone can spare me some re-invention of the wheel...what have you found?
Where does "Sugmad" come from? For example, is it borrowed from the Sufi's?
[I think not. But I did find alot of HU there, for example]
Appreciate any links or guidance....thanx!
Blessings,
_g

---------------------------------------------------------------------
A further statement about Hu, although it has already been mentioned, is that it originates from the Sanskrit, but it also emerges from Europe amongst the Germanic tongues, which is why etymologists have never agreed on it overall....this is because they have not yet been able to understand how the many languages of the world are connected through the existence of a worldwide proto-language. In recent decades there has been a great amount of advancement of that however. Hindi is very closely related to English, as well as Persian, and the even older Kurdish. I have been in contact with a Kurdish author who has been having me rewrite his books to make them more accessible to the English speaking world, his writings being about the most prejudiced against treated race in the Middle-East, the white Kurds. It has taken years for the rest of the world to recognize that Judaism and likewise Christianity and Islam, sprang from Zoroastrianism which preceded them all as a monotheistic language. It is also notable that Hinduism has always been a monotheistic religion, just an all inclusive one, and in more than just that way they are quite ahead of the West in their views on how the Absolute can express ITSELF.

However, then there is the idea of Rama, who according to one author that Mr. Twitchell borrowed the idea of an archetype from, also connected that argumentative idea among the linguists between Germanic languages and Sanskrit, by claiming that one figure shone the light of spirituality on a majority of the word, however, no one human ever did that. But there were a number of prophets before Zarathustra, he being the 28th in a direct line in Persia alone, and of course those people, the Kurds, knew from that first prophet, that the name of God was HU. And this was passed down at the very least to these 27 prophets, the last of whom merely gave the name AHUra Mazda to God without changing the path itself from what it had begun as. And so also those two letters are found in many of the sky or Creator Gods of various cultures, a thing that indicates very clearly that at one point in time that seriously WAS the name of God that everyone knew about. This is very hard for some to accept however, being so attached to the previously accepted truths, but hey, one always chooses their own chains, and are never truly enslaved unless they allow themselves to be. And so it is, a literal choice!

Post by godzilla

Post by Kinpa
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
It really makes no difference, it is simply another word used to refer to the Divine Being....but chances are that it originated from Sarmad which also means "the Eternal."
ALL names and words, number and symbols are mental, and have no ability to be otherwise, and for that reason literally any word can be used so long as the INTENT used therein centers on the Eternal Being of the Absolute which does in fact literally exist. The hardest thing about proving that to one's self is in attaining the direct experience of IT.
To limit the things that come into the Self to being only those that can be obtained from the 5 senses and from the mind, makes itself a wall that blocks any direct experience, but jumping over it and "out of the box" makes achieving it far easier to accomplish.
Free yourself and do not allow yourself to be trapped by the same mental chains that so many others allow to hold them in.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

And so it goes.......

[Kinpa]

Post by Kinpa

Post by godzilla
Kinpa, a completely valid response, thanks your insights.
I still find it interesting that in the 14 years since OP asked, no one has found the unequivocal source of 'SUGMAD' of Paul's writing. Sure I get the logic of why it doesn't matter, etc. I guess it doesn't stop the curiosity, however.
Most everything else Paul wrote about, folks have aligned with some source. But not Sugmad, not yet anyway. Enigmatic it is.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

This is true, and despite identifying a source fr one term or the other there are 2 in particular that would choose to believe that Paul Twitchell, and any others, have no right to reinterpret any terms in ways other than that source material's interpretations...this is of course unequivocally an extremely limited point of view, that they may of course insist upon, however, the have no right to insist upon it as it concerns any OTHER persons!
THAT is the simple truth of the matter! If Paul Twitchell chose to create the name Sugmad out of thin air, whether based upon the term Sarmad, or any other usage of any aspect of the term Sukhmani, makes absolutely NO difference for the reasons I stated before. ALL words are mere mental substitutions for concepts and ideas, which are also mental things....any Soul CAN experience beyond the mind and emotions, and that is the challenge of the whole idea of spirituality, to actually DO that! I have, and care not even a little bit about what anyone else's opinions of it might be! All the while others continually insist that I hear their opinions....which only makes them seem ever more desperate for recognition that they will never receive, especially being that in every case others have done the research and handed those sources to them.
Regardless of anyone's problems with Doug Marman and the views he has expressed in his book, I simply do not agree, and find his conclusions completely valid, and definitely far more-so than the assertion of one of these persons, that St. Matthew of Christian fame plagiarized some Buddhist texts, which is of course a completely ridiculous idea because of the simple fact that there was no such thing as plagiarism in any country, empire, or culture upon the face of the earth until the early 1700's....in reality the only thing that assertion proves is that Judea was well acquainted with the various systems of wisdom from the near and far East, but even an idiot-savant can easily recognize that!
However, allow me to thank you for stating your own opinion of the matter, and I couldn't care less whether it agrees with mine or doesn't, you have every right to having one of your own, whether or not anyone else agrees with it, and if you are one who also has had any level of inner experience with these concepts, then more power to you for continually seeking ever expanding degrees of experience and understanding!

Post by godzilla

Post by Kinpa

I'm searching/researching on the origin/source of the name "Sugmad" used in
the Eck writings. I know Paul said it was an ancient Chinese name for
God...at other places I've read that it's Persian.
I've done extensive and productive Inet-research on "Hu"...but I'm wondering
if anyone can spare me some re-invention of the wheel...what have you found?
Where does "Sugmad" come from? For example, is it borrowed from the Sufi's?
[I think not. But I did find alot of HU there, for example]
Appreciate any links or guidance....thanx!
Blessings,
_g

---------------------------------------------------------------------
A further statement about Hu, although it has already been mentioned, is that it originates from the Sanskrit, but it also emerges from Europe amongst the Germanic tongues, which is why etymologists have never agreed on it overall....this is because they have not yet been able to understand how the many languages of the world are connected through the existence of a worldwide proto-language. In recent decades there has been a great amount of advancement of that however. Hindi is very closely related to English, as well as Persian, and the even older Kurdish. I have been in contact with a Kurdish author who has been having me rewrite his books to make them more accessible to the English speaking world, his writings being about the most prejudiced against treated race in the Middle-East, the white Kurds. It has taken years for the rest of the world to recognize that Judaism and likewise Christianity and Islam, sprang from Zoroastrianism which preceded them all as a monotheistic language. It is also notable that Hinduism has always been a monotheistic religion, just an all inclusive one, and in more than just that way they are quite ahead of the West in their views on how the Absolute can express ITSELF.
However, then there is the idea of Rama, who according to one author that Mr. Twitchell borrowed the idea of an archetype from, also connected that argumentative idea among the linguists between Germanic languages and Sanskrit, by claiming that one figure shone the light of spirituality on a majority of the word, however, no one human ever did that. But there were a number of prophets before Zarathustra, he being the 28th in a direct line in Persia alone, and of course those people, the Kurds, knew from that first prophet, that the name of God was HU. And this was passed down at the very least to these 27 prophets, the last of whom merely gave the name AHUra Mazda to God without changing the path itself from what it had begun as. And so also those two letters are found in many of the sky or Creator Gods of various cultures, a thing that indicates very clearly that at one point in time that seriously WAS the name of God that everyone knew about. This is very hard for some to accept however, being so attached to the previously accepted truths, but hey, one always chooses their own chains, and are never truly enslaved unless they allow themselves to be. And so it is, a literal choice!

Post by godzilla

Post by Kinpa
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
It really makes no difference, it is simply another word used to refer to the Divine Being....but chances are that it originated from Sarmad which also means "the Eternal."
ALL names and words, number and symbols are mental, and have no ability to be otherwise, and for that reason literally any word can be used so long as the INTENT used therein centers on the Eternal Being of the Absolute which does in fact literally exist. The hardest thing about proving that to one's self is in attaining the direct experience of IT.
To limit the things that come into the Self to being only those that can be obtained from the 5 senses and from the mind, makes itself a wall that blocks any direct experience, but jumping over it and "out of the box" makes achieving it far easier to accomplish.
Free yourself and do not allow yourself to be trapped by the same mental chains that so many others allow to hold them in.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
And so it goes.......

And far more about HU, rather than Sugmad for just a moment....

A few reminders of secular source materials that show that Hu was used by the ancient Egyptians as well as the ancient Irish as a name for God:

from The Flaming Door: Mission of the Celtic Fold Soul
by Eleanor C. Merry, 1936

"And that which came to meet the soul (as light and sound come to meet our outer eyes and ears) was called HU, the spiritual world." (p. 137)

"The God HU was the all-ruling Divinity of Western Celtic mythology. He represented the power and the glory of the spiritual world." (p. 153)

"The Mysteries of HU revealed the other pole of human life: the ascent out of the body into the 'glorified' state of expansion of the consciousness in the spiritual world." (p. 153)

"And HU could bring music to the consciousness of waking man and teach it to him, because he himself could hear in sleep the harmonies of the spheres, and his passage from waking to sleeping to waking was unbroken by any obliteration of consciousness. This was always the summit of initiation experience." (p. 165)

---

The Book of Druidry
by Ross Nichols

"HU or Heu'c', who is also Hu Gadarn and Hesus or Esus. The Heu'c sound seems to identify with the name or sound for spirit, identified with breath, very general and coming from very far in time and space." (p. 124)

"HU or He was the seed or essence, the form of deity that like littel Gwion is transformed from least to greatest: HU, the unpronounced either with a light i-sound as he or heu'h, is the creative word, the seed of fire, the first sound." (p. 128)

----

The Religions of Tibet
by Giuseppe Tucci

"The figure of the creator, who corresponds to the Isvara of certain Saivite schools, bear various names, among them sNang ba ód Idan, Kun snang khyab pa and khri khug rgyal po. That which he creates has two aspects, the exterior world (phyi snod) and that contained within it (bcud), a division that corresponds to that between the Indian bhajana-loka and sattva-loka. The cosmology which is attached to this is surely very old, and is throughout constructed on a dualist basis. From the breath which streamed out of the creator there emerged two syllables HU HU, and progressively, the entire universe."

----

The secret teachings of all ages:
an encycklopedic outline of Masonic, Hermetic,
Cabbalistic and Rosicrucian Symbolic Philosophy
by Manly P. Hall

"Their temples wherein the sacred fire was preserved were generally situate on eminences and in dense groves of oak, because a circle was the emblem of the universe; oval, in allusion to the mundane egg, from which issued, according to the traditions of many nations, the universe, or, according to others our first parents; serpentine, because a serpent was the symbol of HU, the Druidic Osiris; cruciform because a cross is an emblem of regeneration; or winged, to represent the motion of the divine spirit.*** Their chief deities were reducible to two - a male and a female, the great father and mother - HU and Cridwen, distinguished by the same characteristics as belong to Osiris and Isis, Bacchus and Ceres, or any other supreme goddess representing the two principles of all Being."

"Godfrey Higgins states that HU, the Mighty, regarded as the first settler of Britain, came from a place which the Welsh Triads call the summer country, the present site of Constantinople. Albert Pike says that the Lost Word of Masonry is concealed in the name of the Druid god HU. The meager information extant concerning the secret initiations of the Druids indicates a decided similarity between their Mystery school and the schools of Greece and Egypt. HU, the sun God, was murdered and, after a number of ordeals and mystic rituals, was restored to life."

-------

The Sirius Connection
by Murry Hope
____________

From the aforegoing, it may be seen that the leonine archetype assumed great significance in all Egyptian thinking, from the cosmological to the everyday. Lion gods and spirits were therefore looked upon as the guardians of all places and property, and the heads were often carved to represent members of the family, priests, priestesses, or Pharaohs and their wives. The Greeks called these 'sphinxes'. One of the names of the Egyptian Sphinx was HU, 'the protector'; another was Hor-em-akhet or 'Horus of the Horizon'which immediately connects its erection with those enigmatical 'Sons (or Followers) of Horus' the Shemsu-Hor. Curiously enough, the name 'HU' also occurs in the Celtic myth of Hu Gadam, an Atlantean person from the sea who guided a band of settlers to the prehistoric shores of Wales. There is also an uncanny similarity of sound between the names Hu Gadam and the Tuatha de Danaans (pronounced Tuar-de-Danans), those strange fairy people with magical powers who, according to legend, landed on the shores of prehistoric Ireland. (p. 197)

----

The Message of The Sphinx
by Graham Hancock & Robert Bauval

"When speaking of the Sphinx, the Ancient Egyptians frequently made use of the Harranian derivation Hwl, but they also knew it by many other names: HU, for example..." (p. 5)

-----

A Dictionary of Egyptian Gods and Goddesses
by George Hart

HU - The god who personifies the authority of a word of command.

Hu came into being from a drop of blood from the phallus of the sun-god Re.

When, according to the theology of the Pyramid Age, the king becomes a lone star, his companion is Hu. The royal authority is maintained in the Afterlife by Hu acknowledging the king's supremacy and allowing the monarch to cross the waters of his canal.

It is tempting to correlate Hu with the power of the tongue of Ptah in the Memphite creation legend, commanding the universeinto existence, at the instigation of Ptah's heart. (p. 97)

-------

There! Just for fun it is clearly proven that these three seemingly unrelated cultures all used Hu....but then there is more to clearly demonstrate that the ancients traded around the world, and it makes no difference if the Aryans brought Hu with them or not, because one thing they did NOT bring, was Hinduism....in fact many say the origin of the white race occurred from Tamils that happened to be albino...that would have to have gone somewhere and bred to further introduce the mutation that caused it....it makes little difference if one considers humanity to have sprung in Africa, or Australia (Aboriginal bloodlines are found within the races of South America) or any of the Tamil, who were southern Indian.....

http://www.heritagedaily.com/2016/05/ancient-irish-musical-history-found-in-modern-india/111201

Did vastly different cultures all develop the same language and ideas separately? or was it the more likely option that they interacted and we modern humans mistake the fact that were are simply not the first to have crossed the oceans.....the Mayan sky/Creator God comes to mind, Hunab Ku...and remember that one of the previous books was speaking about Tibetan tradition...and the fact that now Indo-European language is what nearly all of the dialects spoken on earth root back into...the tower of Babel indeed....

[Etznab]

Post by Kinpa

Post by Kinpa

Post by godzilla
Kinpa, a completely valid response, thanks your insights.
I still find it interesting that in the 14 years since OP asked, no one has found the unequivocal source of 'SUGMAD' of Paul's writing. Sure I get the logic of why it doesn't matter, etc. I guess it doesn't stop the curiosity, however.
Most everything else Paul wrote about, folks have aligned with some source. But not Sugmad, not yet anyway. Enigmatic it is.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

This is true, and despite identifying a source fr one term or the other there are 2 in particular that would choose to believe that Paul Twitchell, and any others, have no right to reinterpret any terms in ways other than that source material's interpretations...this is of course unequivocally an extremely limited point of view, that they may of course insist upon, however, the have no right to insist upon it as it concerns any OTHER persons!
THAT is the simple truth of the matter! If Paul Twitchell chose to create the name Sugmad out of thin air, whether based upon the term Sarmad, or any other usage of any aspect of the term Sukhmani, makes absolutely NO difference for the reasons I stated before. ALL words are mere mental substitutions for concepts and ideas, which are also mental things....any Soul CAN experience beyond the mind and emotions, and that is the challenge of the whole idea of spirituality, to actually DO that! I have, and care not even a little bit about what anyone else's opinions of it might be! All the while others continually insist that I hear their opinions....which only makes them seem ever more desperate for recognition that they will never receive, especially being that in every case others have done the research and handed those sources to them.
Regardless of anyone's problems with Doug Marman and the views he has expressed in his book, I simply do not agree, and find his conclusions completely valid, and definitely far more-so than the assertion of one of these persons, that St. Matthew of Christian fame plagiarized some Buddhist texts, which is of course a completely ridiculous idea because of the simple fact that there was no such thing as plagiarism in any country, empire, or culture upon the face of the earth until the early 1700's....in reality the only thing that assertion proves is that Judea was well acquainted with the various systems of wisdom from the near and far East, but even an idiot-savant can easily recognize that!
However, allow me to thank you for stating your own opinion of the matter, and I couldn't care less whether it agrees with mine or doesn't, you have every right to having one of your own, whether or not anyone else agrees with it, and if you are one who also has had any level of inner experience with these concepts, then more power to you for continually seeking ever expanding degrees of experience and understanding!

Post by godzilla

Post by Kinpa

I'm searching/researching on the origin/source of the name "Sugmad" used in
the Eck writings. I know Paul said it was an ancient Chinese name for
God...at other places I've read that it's Persian.
I've done extensive and productive Inet-research on "Hu"...but I'm wondering
if anyone can spare me some re-invention of the wheel...what have you found?
Where does "Sugmad" come from? For example, is it borrowed from the Sufi's?
[I think not. But I did find alot of HU there, for example]
Appreciate any links or guidance....thanx!
Blessings,
_g

---------------------------------------------------------------------
A further statement about Hu, although it has already been mentioned, is that it originates from the Sanskrit, but it also emerges from Europe amongst the Germanic tongues, which is why etymologists have never agreed on it overall....this is because they have not yet been able to understand how the many languages of the world are connected through the existence of a worldwide proto-language. In recent decades there has been a great amount of advancement of that however. Hindi is very closely related to English, as well as Persian, and the even older Kurdish. I have been in contact with a Kurdish author who has been having me rewrite his books to make them more accessible to the English speaking world, his writings being about the most prejudiced against treated race in the Middle-East, the white Kurds. It has taken years for the rest of the world to recognize that Judaism and likewise Christianity and Islam, sprang from Zoroastrianism which preceded them all as a monotheistic language. It is also notable that Hinduism has always been a monotheistic religion, just an all inclusive one, and in more than just that way they are quite ahead of the West in their views on how the Absolute can express ITSELF.
However, then there is the idea of Rama, who according to one author that Mr. Twitchell borrowed the idea of an archetype from, also connected that argumentative idea among the linguists between Germanic languages and Sanskrit, by claiming that one figure shone the light of spirituality on a majority of the word, however, no one human ever did that. But there were a number of prophets before Zarathustra, he being the 28th in a direct line in Persia alone, and of course those people, the Kurds, knew from that first prophet, that the name of God was HU. And this was passed down at the very least to these 27 prophets, the last of whom merely gave the name AHUra Mazda to God without changing the path itself from what it had begun as. And so also those two letters are found in many of the sky or Creator Gods of various cultures, a thing that indicates very clearly that at one point in time that seriously WAS the name of God that everyone knew about. This is very hard for some to accept however, being so attached to the previously accepted truths, but hey, one always chooses their own chains, and are never truly enslaved unless they allow themselves to be. And so it is, a literal choice!

Post by godzilla

Post by Kinpa
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
It really makes no difference, it is simply another word used to refer to the Divine Being....but chances are that it originated from Sarmad which also means "the Eternal."
ALL names and words, number and symbols are mental, and have no ability to be otherwise, and for that reason literally any word can be used so long as the INTENT used therein centers on the Eternal Being of the Absolute which does in fact literally exist. The hardest thing about proving that to one's self is in attaining the direct experience of IT.
To limit the things that come into the Self to being only those that can be obtained from the 5 senses and from the mind, makes itself a wall that blocks any direct experience, but jumping over it and "out of the box" makes achieving it far easier to accomplish.
Free yourself and do not allow yourself to be trapped by the same mental chains that so many others allow to hold them in.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
And so it goes.......

And far more about HU, rather than Sugmad for just a moment....
from The Flaming Door: Mission of the Celtic Fold Soul
by Eleanor C. Merry, 1936
"And that which came to meet the soul (as light and sound come to meet our outer eyes and ears) was called HU, the spiritual world." (p. 137)
"The God HU was the all-ruling Divinity of Western Celtic mythology. He represented the power and the glory of the spiritual world." (p. 153)
"The Mysteries of HU revealed the other pole of human life: the ascent out of the body into the 'glorified' state of expansion of the consciousness in the spiritual world." (p. 153)
"And HU could bring music to the consciousness of waking man and teach it to him, because he himself could hear in sleep the harmonies of the spheres, and his passage from waking to sleeping to waking was unbroken by any obliteration of consciousness. This was always the summit of initiation experience." (p. 165)
---
The Book of Druidry
by Ross Nichols
"HU or Heu'c', who is also Hu Gadarn and Hesus or Esus. The Heu'c sound seems to identify with the name or sound for spirit, identified with breath, very general and coming from very far in time and space." (p. 124)
"HU or He was the seed or essence, the form of deity that like littel Gwion is transformed from least to greatest: HU, the unpronounced either with a light i-sound as he or heu'h, is the creative word, the seed of fire, the first sound." (p. 128)
----
The Religions of Tibet
by Giuseppe Tucci
"The figure of the creator, who corresponds to the Isvara of certain Saivite schools, bear various names, among them sNang ba ód Idan, Kun snang khyab pa and khri khug rgyal po. That which he creates has two aspects, the exterior world (phyi snod) and that contained within it (bcud), a division that corresponds to that between the Indian bhajana-loka and sattva-loka. The cosmology which is attached to this is surely very old, and is throughout constructed on a dualist basis. From the breath which streamed out of the creator there emerged two syllables HU HU, and progressively, the entire universe."
----
an encycklopedic outline of Masonic, Hermetic,
Cabbalistic and Rosicrucian Symbolic Philosophy
by Manly P. Hall
"Their temples wherein the sacred fire was preserved were generally situate on eminences and in dense groves of oak, because a circle was the emblem of the universe; oval, in allusion to the mundane egg, from which issued, according to the traditions of many nations, the universe, or, according to others our first parents; serpentine, because a serpent was the symbol of HU, the Druidic Osiris; cruciform because a cross is an emblem of regeneration; or winged, to represent the motion of the divine spirit.*** Their chief deities were reducible to two - a male and a female, the great father and mother - HU and Cridwen, distinguished by the same characteristics as belong to Osiris and Isis, Bacchus and Ceres, or any other supreme goddess representing the two principles of all Being."
"Godfrey Higgins states that HU, the Mighty, regarded as the first settler of Britain, came from a place which the Welsh Triads call the summer country, the present site of Constantinople. Albert Pike says that the Lost Word of Masonry is concealed in the name of the Druid god HU. The meager information extant concerning the secret initiations of the Druids indicates a decided similarity between their Mystery school and the schools of Greece and Egypt. HU, the sun God, was murdered and, after a number of ordeals and mystic rituals, was restored to life."
-------
The Sirius Connection
by Murry Hope
____________
From the aforegoing, it may be seen that the leonine archetype assumed great significance in all Egyptian thinking, from the cosmological to the everyday. Lion gods and spirits were therefore looked upon as the guardians of all places and property, and the heads were often carved to represent members of the family, priests, priestesses, or Pharaohs and their wives. The Greeks called these 'sphinxes'. One of the names of the Egyptian Sphinx was HU, 'the protector'; another was Hor-em-akhet or 'Horus of the Horizon'which immediately connects its erection with those enigmatical 'Sons (or Followers) of Horus' the Shemsu-Hor. Curiously enough, the name 'HU' also occurs in the Celtic myth of Hu Gadam, an Atlantean person from the sea who guided a band of settlers to the prehistoric shores of Wales. There is also an uncanny similarity of sound between the names Hu Gadam and the Tuatha de Danaans (pronounced Tuar-de-Danans), those strange fairy people with magical powers who, according to legend, landed on the shores of prehistoric Ireland. (p. 197)
----
The Message of The Sphinx
by Graham Hancock & Robert Bauval
"When speaking of the Sphinx, the Ancient Egyptians frequently made use of the Harranian derivation Hwl, but they also knew it by many other names: HU, for example..." (p. 5)
-----
A Dictionary of Egyptian Gods and Goddesses
by George Hart
HU - The god who personifies the authority of a word of command.
Hu came into being from a drop of blood from the phallus of the sun-god Re.
When, according to the theology of the Pyramid Age, the king becomes a lone star, his companion is Hu. The royal authority is maintained in the Afterlife by Hu acknowledging the king's supremacy and allowing the monarch to cross the waters of his canal.
It is tempting to correlate Hu with the power of the tongue of Ptah in the Memphite creation legend, commanding the universeinto existence, at the instigation of Ptah's heart. (p. 97)
-------
There! Just for fun it is clearly proven that these three seemingly unrelated cultures all used Hu....but then there is more to clearly demonstrate that the ancients traded around the world, and it makes no difference if the Aryans brought Hu with them or not, because one thing they did NOT bring, was Hinduism....in fact many say the origin of the white race occurred from Tamils that happened to be albino...that would have to have gone somewhere and bred to further introduce the mutation that caused it....it makes little difference if one considers humanity to have sprung in Africa, or Australia (Aboriginal bloodlines are found within the races of South America) or any of the Tamil, who were southern Indian.....
http://www.heritagedaily.com/2016/05/ancient-irish-musical-history-found-in-modern-india/111201
Did vastly different cultures all develop the same language and ideas separately? or was it the more likely option that they interacted and we modern humans mistake the fact that were are simply not the first to have crossed the oceans.....the Mayan sky/Creator God comes to mind, Hunab Ku...and remember that one of the previous books was speaking about Tibetan tradition...and the fact that now Indo-European language is what nearly all of the dialects spoken on earth root back into...the tower of Babel indeed....

Typical changing of the subject by Kinpa once again.

And what was that about using other people's sources? Something you criticized Sean for? You should know that just because someone writes something down, or claims it to be so that doesn't make it true. Paul created multiple tall tales and these may live in people's imaginations, but is no proof of ever actually happening.

Proof has been shown to you many times over how many authors Twitchell copied from and how many times he changed things to "outfit" them for Eckankar. Thus, what Paul wrote can be explored for what it really was. If it hurts your own imagination to learn the truth that is not my fault. And if you get angry and need to talk poop, etc. about those who show you the truth then this is on you.

[Kinpa]

Post by Etznab

Post by Kinpa

Post by Kinpa

Post by godzilla
Kinpa, a completely valid response, thanks your insights.
I still find it interesting that in the 14 years since OP asked, no one has found the unequivocal source of 'SUGMAD' of Paul's writing. Sure I get the logic of why it doesn't matter, etc. I guess it doesn't stop the curiosity, however.
Most everything else Paul wrote about, folks have aligned with some source. But not Sugmad, not yet anyway. Enigmatic it is.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

This is true, and despite identifying a source fr one term or the other there are 2 in particular that would choose to believe that Paul Twitchell, and any others, have no right to reinterpret any terms in ways other than that source material's interpretations...this is of course unequivocally an extremely limited point of view, that they may of course insist upon, however, the have no right to insist upon it as it concerns any OTHER persons!
THAT is the simple truth of the matter! If Paul Twitchell chose to create the name Sugmad out of thin air, whether based upon the term Sarmad, or any other usage of any aspect of the term Sukhmani, makes absolutely NO difference for the reasons I stated before. ALL words are mere mental substitutions for concepts and ideas, which are also mental things....any Soul CAN experience beyond the mind and emotions, and that is the challenge of the whole idea of spirituality, to actually DO that! I have, and care not even a little bit about what anyone else's opinions of it might be! All the while others continually insist that I hear their opinions....which only makes them seem ever more desperate for recognition that they will never receive, especially being that in every case others have done the research and handed those sources to them.
Regardless of anyone's problems with Doug Marman and the views he has expressed in his book, I simply do not agree, and find his conclusions completely valid, and definitely far more-so than the assertion of one of these persons, that St. Matthew of Christian fame plagiarized some Buddhist texts, which is of course a completely ridiculous idea because of the simple fact that there was no such thing as plagiarism in any country, empire, or culture upon the face of the earth until the early 1700's....in reality the only thing that assertion proves is that Judea was well acquainted with the various systems of wisdom from the near and far East, but even an idiot-savant can easily recognize that!
However, allow me to thank you for stating your own opinion of the matter, and I couldn't care less whether it agrees with mine or doesn't, you have every right to having one of your own, whether or not anyone else agrees with it, and if you are one who also has had any level of inner experience with these concepts, then more power to you for continually seeking ever expanding degrees of experience and understanding!

Post by godzilla

Post by Kinpa

I'm searching/researching on the origin/source of the name "Sugmad" used in
the Eck writings. I know Paul said it was an ancient Chinese name for
God...at other places I've read that it's Persian.
I've done extensive and productive Inet-research on "Hu"...but I'm wondering
if anyone can spare me some re-invention of the wheel...what have you found?
Where does "Sugmad" come from? For example, is it borrowed from the Sufi's?
[I think not. But I did find alot of HU there, for example]
Appreciate any links or guidance....thanx!
Blessings,
_g

---------------------------------------------------------------------
A further statement about Hu, although it has already been mentioned, is that it originates from the Sanskrit, but it also emerges from Europe amongst the Germanic tongues, which is why etymologists have never agreed on it overall....this is because they have not yet been able to understand how the many languages of the world are connected through the existence of a worldwide proto-language. In recent decades there has been a great amount of advancement of that however. Hindi is very closely related to English, as well as Persian, and the even older Kurdish. I have been in contact with a Kurdish author who has been having me rewrite his books to make them more accessible to the English speaking world, his writings being about the most prejudiced against treated race in the Middle-East, the white Kurds. It has taken years for the rest of the world to recognize that Judaism and likewise Christianity and Islam, sprang from Zoroastrianism which preceded them all as a monotheistic language. It is also notable that Hinduism has always been a monotheistic religion, just an all inclusive one, and in more than just that way they are quite ahead of the West in their views on how the Absolute can express ITSELF.
However, then there is the idea of Rama, who according to one author that Mr. Twitchell borrowed the idea of an archetype from, also connected that argumentative idea among the linguists between Germanic languages and Sanskrit, by claiming that one figure shone the light of spirituality on a majority of the word, however, no one human ever did that. But there were a number of prophets before Zarathustra, he being the 28th in a direct line in Persia alone, and of course those people, the Kurds, knew from that first prophet, that the name of God was HU. And this was passed down at the very least to these 27 prophets, the last of whom merely gave the name AHUra Mazda to God without changing the path itself from what it had begun as. And so also those two letters are found in many of the sky or Creator Gods of various cultures, a thing that indicates very clearly that at one point in time that seriously WAS the name of God that everyone knew about. This is very hard for some to accept however, being so attached to the previously accepted truths, but hey, one always chooses their own chains, and are never truly enslaved unless they allow themselves to be. And so it is, a literal choice!

Post by godzilla

Post by Kinpa
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
It really makes no difference, it is simply another word used to refer to the Divine Being....but chances are that it originated from Sarmad which also means "the Eternal."
ALL names and words, number and symbols are mental, and have no ability to be otherwise, and for that reason literally any word can be used so long as the INTENT used therein centers on the Eternal Being of the Absolute which does in fact literally exist. The hardest thing about proving that to one's self is in attaining the direct experience of IT.
To limit the things that come into the Self to being only those that can be obtained from the 5 senses and from the mind, makes itself a wall that blocks any direct experience, but jumping over it and "out of the box" makes achieving it far easier to accomplish.
Free yourself and do not allow yourself to be trapped by the same mental chains that so many others allow to hold them in.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
And so it goes.......

And far more about HU, rather than Sugmad for just a moment....
from The Flaming Door: Mission of the Celtic Fold Soul
by Eleanor C. Merry, 1936
"And that which came to meet the soul (as light and sound come to meet our outer eyes and ears) was called HU, the spiritual world." (p. 137)
"The God HU was the all-ruling Divinity of Western Celtic mythology. He represented the power and the glory of the spiritual world." (p. 153)
"The Mysteries of HU revealed the other pole of human life: the ascent out of the body into the 'glorified' state of expansion of the consciousness in the spiritual world." (p. 153)
"And HU could bring music to the consciousness of waking man and teach it to him, because he himself could hear in sleep the harmonies of the spheres, and his passage from waking to sleeping to waking was unbroken by any obliteration of consciousness. This was always the summit of initiation experience." (p. 165)
---
The Book of Druidry
by Ross Nichols
"HU or Heu'c', who is also Hu Gadarn and Hesus or Esus. The Heu'c sound seems to identify with the name or sound for spirit, identified with breath, very general and coming from very far in time and space." (p. 124)
"HU or He was the seed or essence, the form of deity that like littel Gwion is transformed from least to greatest: HU, the unpronounced either with a light i-sound as he or heu'h, is the creative word, the seed of fire, the first sound." (p. 128)
----
The Religions of Tibet
by Giuseppe Tucci
"The figure of the creator, who corresponds to the Isvara of certain Saivite schools, bear various names, among them sNang ba ód Idan, Kun snang khyab pa and khri khug rgyal po. That which he creates has two aspects, the exterior world (phyi snod) and that contained within it (bcud), a division that corresponds to that between the Indian bhajana-loka and sattva-loka. The cosmology which is attached to this is surely very old, and is throughout constructed on a dualist basis. From the breath which streamed out of the creator there emerged two syllables HU HU, and progressively, the entire universe."
----
an encycklopedic outline of Masonic, Hermetic,
Cabbalistic and Rosicrucian Symbolic Philosophy
by Manly P. Hall
"Their temples wherein the sacred fire was preserved were generally situate on eminences and in dense groves of oak, because a circle was the emblem of the universe; oval, in allusion to the mundane egg, from which issued, according to the traditions of many nations, the universe, or, according to others our first parents; serpentine, because a serpent was the symbol of HU, the Druidic Osiris; cruciform because a cross is an emblem of regeneration; or winged, to represent the motion of the divine spirit.*** Their chief deities were reducible to two - a male and a female, the great father and mother - HU and Cridwen, distinguished by the same characteristics as belong to Osiris and Isis, Bacchus and Ceres, or any other supreme goddess representing the two principles of all Being."
"Godfrey Higgins states that HU, the Mighty, regarded as the first settler of Britain, came from a place which the Welsh Triads call the summer country, the present site of Constantinople. Albert Pike says that the Lost Word of Masonry is concealed in the name of the Druid god HU. The meager information extant concerning the secret initiations of the Druids indicates a decided similarity between their Mystery school and the schools of Greece and Egypt. HU, the sun God, was murdered and, after a number of ordeals and mystic rituals, was restored to life."
-------
The Sirius Connection
by Murry Hope
____________
From the aforegoing, it may be seen that the leonine archetype assumed great significance in all Egyptian thinking, from the cosmological to the everyday. Lion gods and spirits were therefore looked upon as the guardians of all places and property, and the heads were often carved to represent members of the family, priests, priestesses, or Pharaohs and their wives. The Greeks called these 'sphinxes'. One of the names of the Egyptian Sphinx was HU, 'the protector'; another was Hor-em-akhet or 'Horus of the Horizon'which immediately connects its erection with those enigmatical 'Sons (or Followers) of Horus' the Shemsu-Hor. Curiously enough, the name 'HU' also occurs in the Celtic myth of Hu Gadam, an Atlantean person from the sea who guided a band of settlers to the prehistoric shores of Wales. There is also an uncanny similarity of sound between the names Hu Gadam and the Tuatha de Danaans (pronounced Tuar-de-Danans), those strange fairy people with magical powers who, according to legend, landed on the shores of prehistoric Ireland. (p. 197)
----
The Message of The Sphinx
by Graham Hancock & Robert Bauval
"When speaking of the Sphinx, the Ancient Egyptians frequently made use of the Harranian derivation Hwl, but they also knew it by many other names: HU, for example..." (p. 5)
-----
A Dictionary of Egyptian Gods and Goddesses
by George Hart
HU - The god who personifies the authority of a word of command.
Hu came into being from a drop of blood from the phallus of the sun-god Re.
When, according to the theology of the Pyramid Age, the king becomes a lone star, his companion is Hu. The royal authority is maintained in the Afterlife by Hu acknowledging the king's supremacy and allowing the monarch to cross the waters of his canal.
It is tempting to correlate Hu with the power of the tongue of Ptah in the Memphite creation legend, commanding the universeinto existence, at the instigation of Ptah's heart. (p. 97)
-------
There! Just for fun it is clearly proven that these three seemingly unrelated cultures all used Hu....but then there is more to clearly demonstrate that the ancients traded around the world, and it makes no difference if the Aryans brought Hu with them or not, because one thing they did NOT bring, was Hinduism....in fact many say the origin of the white race occurred from Tamils that happened to be albino...that would have to have gone somewhere and bred to further introduce the mutation that caused it....it makes little difference if one considers humanity to have sprung in Africa, or Australia (Aboriginal bloodlines are found within the races of South America) or any of the Tamil, who were southern Indian.....
http://www.heritagedaily.com/2016/05/ancient-irish-musical-history-found-in-modern-india/111201
Did vastly different cultures all develop the same language and ideas separately? or was it the more likely option that they interacted and we modern humans mistake the fact that were are simply not the first to have crossed the oceans.....the Mayan sky/Creator God comes to mind, Hunab Ku...and remember that one of the previous books was speaking about Tibetan tradition...and the fact that now Indo-European language is what nearly all of the dialects spoken on earth root back into...the tower of Babel indeed....

Typical changing of the subject by Kinpa once again.
And what was that about using other people's sources? Something you criticized Sean for? You should know that just because someone writes something down, or claims it to be so that doesn't make it true. Paul created multiple tall tales and these may live in people's imaginations, but is no proof of ever actually happening.
Proof has been shown to you many times over how many authors Twitchell copied from and how many times he changed things to "outfit" them for Eckankar. Thus, what Paul wrote can be explored for what it really was. If it hurts your own imagination to learn the truth that is not my fault. And if you get angry and need to talk poop, etc. about those who show you the truth then this is on you.

Still crying because your life is tripe....enjoy the tripe you consume....regurgitated fecies are still fecies....you are dismissed little man!

[m***@verizon.net]

Post by Kinpa

Post by Etznab

Post by Kinpa

Post by Kinpa

Post by godzilla
Kinpa, a completely valid response, thanks your insights.
I still find it interesting that in the 14 years since OP asked, no one has found the unequivocal source of 'SUGMAD' of Paul's writing. Sure I get the logic of why it doesn't matter, etc. I guess it doesn't stop the curiosity, however.
Most everything else Paul wrote about, folks have aligned with some source. But not Sugmad, not yet anyway. Enigmatic it is.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

This is true, and despite identifying a source fr one term or the other there are 2 in particular that would choose to believe that Paul Twitchell, and any others, have no right to reinterpret any terms in ways other than that source material's interpretations...this is of course unequivocally an extremely limited point of view, that they may of course insist upon, however, the have no right to insist upon it as it concerns any OTHER persons!
THAT is the simple truth of the matter! If Paul Twitchell chose to create the name Sugmad out of thin air, whether based upon the term Sarmad, or any other usage of any aspect of the term Sukhmani, makes absolutely NO difference for the reasons I stated before. ALL words are mere mental substitutions for concepts and ideas, which are also mental things....any Soul CAN experience beyond the mind and emotions, and that is the challenge of the whole idea of spirituality, to actually DO that! I have, and care not even a little bit about what anyone else's opinions of it might be! All the while others continually insist that I hear their opinions....which only makes them seem ever more desperate for recognition that they will never receive, especially being that in every case others have done the research and handed those sources to them.
Regardless of anyone's problems with Doug Marman and the views he has expressed in his book, I simply do not agree, and find his conclusions completely valid, and definitely far more-so than the assertion of one of these persons, that St. Matthew of Christian fame plagiarized some Buddhist texts, which is of course a completely ridiculous idea because of the simple fact that there was no such thing as plagiarism in any country, empire, or culture upon the face of the earth until the early 1700's....in reality the only thing that assertion proves is that Judea was well acquainted with the various systems of wisdom from the near and far East, but even an idiot-savant can easily recognize that!
However, allow me to thank you for stating your own opinion of the matter, and I couldn't care less whether it agrees with mine or doesn't, you have every right to having one of your own, whether or not anyone else agrees with it, and if you are one who also has had any level of inner experience with these concepts, then more power to you for continually seeking ever expanding degrees of experience and understanding!

Post by godzilla

Post by Kinpa

I'm searching/researching on the origin/source of the name "Sugmad" used in
the Eck writings. I know Paul said it was an ancient Chinese name for
God...at other places I've read that it's Persian.
I've done extensive and productive Inet-research on "Hu"...but I'm wondering
if anyone can spare me some re-invention of the wheel...what have you found?
Where does "Sugmad" come from? For example, is it borrowed from the Sufi's?
[I think not. But I did find alot of HU there, for example]
Appreciate any links or guidance....thanx!
Blessings,
_g

---------------------------------------------------------------------
A further statement about Hu, although it has already been mentioned, is that it originates from the Sanskrit, but it also emerges from Europe amongst the Germanic tongues, which is why etymologists have never agreed on it overall....this is because they have not yet been able to understand how the many languages of the world are connected through the existence of a worldwide proto-language. In recent decades there has been a great amount of advancement of that however. Hindi is very closely related to English, as well as Persian, and the even older Kurdish. I have been in contact with a Kurdish author who has been having me rewrite his books to make them more accessible to the English speaking world, his writings being about the most prejudiced against treated race in the Middle-East, the white Kurds. It has taken years for the rest of the world to recognize that Judaism and likewise Christianity and Islam, sprang from Zoroastrianism which preceded them all as a monotheistic language. It is also notable that Hinduism has always been a monotheistic religion, just an all inclusive one, and in more than just that way they are quite ahead of the West in their views on how the Absolute can express ITSELF.
However, then there is the idea of Rama, who according to one author that Mr. Twitchell borrowed the idea of an archetype from, also connected that argumentative idea among the linguists between Germanic languages and Sanskrit, by claiming that one figure shone the light of spirituality on a majority of the word, however, no one human ever did that. But there were a number of prophets before Zarathustra, he being the 28th in a direct line in Persia alone, and of course those people, the Kurds, knew from that first prophet, that the name of God was HU. And this was passed down at the very least to these 27 prophets, the last of whom merely gave the name AHUra Mazda to God without changing the path itself from what it had begun as. And so also those two letters are found in many of the sky or Creator Gods of various cultures, a thing that indicates very clearly that at one point in time that seriously WAS the name of God that everyone knew about. This is very hard for some to accept however, being so attached to the previously accepted truths, but hey, one always chooses their own chains, and are never truly enslaved unless they allow themselves to be. And so it is, a literal choice!

Post by godzilla

Post by Kinpa
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
It really makes no difference, it is simply another word used to refer to the Divine Being....but chances are that it originated from Sarmad which also means "the Eternal."
ALL names and words, number and symbols are mental, and have no ability to be otherwise, and for that reason literally any word can be used so long as the INTENT used therein centers on the Eternal Being of the Absolute which does in fact literally exist. The hardest thing about proving that to one's self is in attaining the direct experience of IT.
To limit the things that come into the Self to being only those that can be obtained from the 5 senses and from the mind, makes itself a wall that blocks any direct experience, but jumping over it and "out of the box" makes achieving it far easier to accomplish.
Free yourself and do not allow yourself to be trapped by the same mental chains that so many others allow to hold them in.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
And so it goes.......

And far more about HU, rather than Sugmad for just a moment....
from The Flaming Door: Mission of the Celtic Fold Soul
by Eleanor C. Merry, 1936
"And that which came to meet the soul (as light and sound come to meet our outer eyes and ears) was called HU, the spiritual world." (p. 137)
"The God HU was the all-ruling Divinity of Western Celtic mythology. He represented the power and the glory of the spiritual world." (p. 153)
"The Mysteries of HU revealed the other pole of human life: the ascent out of the body into the 'glorified' state of expansion of the consciousness in the spiritual world." (p. 153)
"And HU could bring music to the consciousness of waking man and teach it to him, because he himself could hear in sleep the harmonies of the spheres, and his passage from waking to sleeping to waking was unbroken by any obliteration of consciousness. This was always the summit of initiation experience." (p. 165)
---
The Book of Druidry
by Ross Nichols
"HU or Heu'c', who is also Hu Gadarn and Hesus or Esus. The Heu'c sound seems to identify with the name or sound for spirit, identified with breath, very general and coming from very far in time and space." (p. 124)
"HU or He was the seed or essence, the form of deity that like littel Gwion is transformed from least to greatest: HU, the unpronounced either with a light i-sound as he or heu'h, is the creative word, the seed of fire, the first sound." (p. 128)
----
The Religions of Tibet
by Giuseppe Tucci
"The figure of the creator, who corresponds to the Isvara of certain Saivite schools, bear various names, among them sNang ba ód Idan, Kun snang khyab pa and khri khug rgyal po. That which he creates has two aspects, the exterior world (phyi snod) and that contained within it (bcud), a division that corresponds to that between the Indian bhajana-loka and sattva-loka. The cosmology which is attached to this is surely very old, and is throughout constructed on a dualist basis. From the breath which streamed out of the creator there emerged two syllables HU HU, and progressively, the entire universe."
----
an encycklopedic outline of Masonic, Hermetic,
Cabbalistic and Rosicrucian Symbolic Philosophy
by Manly P. Hall
"Their temples wherein the sacred fire was preserved were generally situate on eminences and in dense groves of oak, because a circle was the emblem of the universe; oval, in allusion to the mundane egg, from which issued, according to the traditions of many nations, the universe, or, according to others our first parents; serpentine, because a serpent was the symbol of HU, the Druidic Osiris; cruciform because a cross is an emblem of regeneration; or winged, to represent the motion of the divine spirit.*** Their chief deities were reducible to two - a male and a female, the great father and mother - HU and Cridwen, distinguished by the same characteristics as belong to Osiris and Isis, Bacchus and Ceres, or any other supreme goddess representing the two principles of all Being."
"Godfrey Higgins states that HU, the Mighty, regarded as the first settler of Britain, came from a place which the Welsh Triads call the summer country, the present site of Constantinople. Albert Pike says that the Lost Word of Masonry is concealed in the name of the Druid god HU. The meager information extant concerning the secret initiations of the Druids indicates a decided similarity between their Mystery school and the schools of Greece and Egypt. HU, the sun God, was murdered and, after a number of ordeals and mystic rituals, was restored to life."
-------
The Sirius Connection
by Murry Hope
____________
From the aforegoing, it may be seen that the leonine archetype assumed great significance in all Egyptian thinking, from the cosmological to the everyday. Lion gods and spirits were therefore looked upon as the guardians of all places and property, and the heads were often carved to represent members of the family, priests, priestesses, or Pharaohs and their wives. The Greeks called these 'sphinxes'. One of the names of the Egyptian Sphinx was HU, 'the protector'; another was Hor-em-akhet or 'Horus of the Horizon'which immediately connects its erection with those enigmatical 'Sons (or Followers) of Horus' the Shemsu-Hor. Curiously enough, the name 'HU' also occurs in the Celtic myth of Hu Gadam, an Atlantean person from the sea who guided a band of settlers to the prehistoric shores of Wales. There is also an uncanny similarity of sound between the names Hu Gadam and the Tuatha de Danaans (pronounced Tuar-de-Danans), those strange fairy people with magical powers who, according to legend, landed on the shores of prehistoric Ireland. (p. 197)
----
The Message of The Sphinx
by Graham Hancock & Robert Bauval
"When speaking of the Sphinx, the Ancient Egyptians frequently made use of the Harranian derivation Hwl, but they also knew it by many other names: HU, for example..." (p. 5)
-----
A Dictionary of Egyptian Gods and Goddesses
by George Hart
HU - The god who personifies the authority of a word of command.
Hu came into being from a drop of blood from the phallus of the sun-god Re.
When, according to the theology of the Pyramid Age, the king becomes a lone star, his companion is Hu. The royal authority is maintained in the Afterlife by Hu acknowledging the king's supremacy and allowing the monarch to cross the waters of his canal.
It is tempting to correlate Hu with the power of the tongue of Ptah in the Memphite creation legend, commanding the universeinto existence, at the instigation of Ptah's heart. (p. 97)
-------
There! Just for fun it is clearly proven that these three seemingly unrelated cultures all used Hu....but then there is more to clearly demonstrate that the ancients traded around the world, and it makes no difference if the Aryans brought Hu with them or not, because one thing they did NOT bring, was Hinduism....in fact many say the origin of the white race occurred from Tamils that happened to be albino...that would have to have gone somewhere and bred to further introduce the mutation that caused it....it makes little difference if one considers humanity to have sprung in Africa, or Australia (Aboriginal bloodlines are found within the races of South America) or any of the Tamil, who were southern Indian.....
http://www.heritagedaily.com/2016/05/ancient-irish-musical-history-found-in-modern-india/111201
Did vastly different cultures all develop the same language and ideas separately? or was it the more likely option that they interacted and we modern humans mistake the fact that were are simply not the first to have crossed the oceans.....the Mayan sky/Creator God comes to mind, Hunab Ku...and remember that one of the previous books was speaking about Tibetan tradition...and the fact that now Indo-European language is what nearly all of the dialects spoken on earth root back into...the tower of Babel indeed....

Typical changing of the subject by Kinpa once again.
And what was that about using other people's sources? Something you criticized Sean for? You should know that just because someone writes something down, or claims it to be so that doesn't make it true. Paul created multiple tall tales and these may live in people's imaginations, but is no proof of ever actually happening.
Proof has been shown to you many times over how many authors Twitchell copied from and how many times he changed things to "outfit" them for Eckankar. Thus, what Paul wrote can be explored for what it really was. If it hurts your own imagination to learn the truth that is not my fault. And if you get angry and need to talk poop, etc. about those who show you the truth then this is on you.

Still crying because your life is tripe....enjoy the tripe you consume....regurgitated fecies are still fecies....you are dismissed little man!

You only show your own littleness and full of crapness by pointing out someone elses. Seems to be an integral part of you. You revel in your own crap (BS), and project it onto others in quite an egotistical - or should I say full-blown-died-in-the-wool-Eckist - way. Congratulations - shithead number 1, come to the head of the class. Let us all bask in your glorious smell miss Kinpa! You certainly deserve it. And I'm sure the P-man has his chorus of angels singing the glorious HU for all the many heavens to hear, solely in your honor. And let's not forget the Klemptomaniac. I'm sure he's projecting his astral body to all of his loyal followers thru out the infinite universe, and impressing upon them his praise for all of your intellectual bravado and high-mindedness, which you exhibit in spades. Take a bow, Miss Kinpa! All glory to Sigmund-the-sea-monster!!

[Kinpa]

Post by m***@verizon.net

Post by Kinpa

Post by Etznab

Post by Kinpa

Post by Kinpa

Post by godzilla
Kinpa, a completely valid response, thanks your insights.
I still find it interesting that in the 14 years since OP asked, no one has found the unequivocal source of 'SUGMAD' of Paul's writing. Sure I get the logic of why it doesn't matter, etc. I guess it doesn't stop the curiosity, however.
Most everything else Paul wrote about, folks have aligned with some source. But not Sugmad, not yet anyway. Enigmatic it is.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

This is true, and despite identifying a source fr one term or the other there are 2 in particular that would choose to believe that Paul Twitchell, and any others, have no right to reinterpret any terms in ways other than that source material's interpretations...this is of course unequivocally an extremely limited point of view, that they may of course insist upon, however, the have no right to insist upon it as it concerns any OTHER persons!
THAT is the simple truth of the matter! If Paul Twitchell chose to create the name Sugmad out of thin air, whether based upon the term Sarmad, or any other usage of any aspect of the term Sukhmani, makes absolutely NO difference for the reasons I stated before. ALL words are mere mental substitutions for concepts and ideas, which are also mental things....any Soul CAN experience beyond the mind and emotions, and that is the challenge of the whole idea of spirituality, to actually DO that! I have, and care not even a little bit about what anyone else's opinions of it might be! All the while others continually insist that I hear their opinions....which only makes them seem ever more desperate for recognition that they will never receive, especially being that in every case others have done the research and handed those sources to them.
Regardless of anyone's problems with Doug Marman and the views he has expressed in his book, I simply do not agree, and find his conclusions completely valid, and definitely far more-so than the assertion of one of these persons, that St. Matthew of Christian fame plagiarized some Buddhist texts, which is of course a completely ridiculous idea because of the simple fact that there was no such thing as plagiarism in any country, empire, or culture upon the face of the earth until the early 1700's....in reality the only thing that assertion proves is that Judea was well acquainted with the various systems of wisdom from the near and far East, but even an idiot-savant can easily recognize that!
However, allow me to thank you for stating your own opinion of the matter, and I couldn't care less whether it agrees with mine or doesn't, you have every right to having one of your own, whether or not anyone else agrees with it, and if you are one who also has had any level of inner experience with these concepts, then more power to you for continually seeking ever expanding degrees of experience and understanding!

Post by godzilla

Post by Kinpa

I'm searching/researching on the origin/source of the name "Sugmad" used in
the Eck writings. I know Paul said it was an ancient Chinese name for
God...at other places I've read that it's Persian.
I've done extensive and productive Inet-research on "Hu"...but I'm wondering
if anyone can spare me some re-invention of the wheel...what have you found?
Where does "Sugmad" come from? For example, is it borrowed from the Sufi's?
[I think not. But I did find alot of HU there, for example]
Appreciate any links or guidance....thanx!
Blessings,
_g

---------------------------------------------------------------------
A further statement about Hu, although it has already been mentioned, is that it originates from the Sanskrit, but it also emerges from Europe amongst the Germanic tongues, which is why etymologists have never agreed on it overall....this is because they have not yet been able to understand how the many languages of the world are connected through the existence of a worldwide proto-language. In recent decades there has been a great amount of advancement of that however. Hindi is very closely related to English, as well as Persian, and the even older Kurdish. I have been in contact with a Kurdish author who has been having me rewrite his books to make them more accessible to the English speaking world, his writings being about the most prejudiced against treated race in the Middle-East, the white Kurds. It has taken years for the rest of the world to recognize that Judaism and likewise Christianity and Islam, sprang from Zoroastrianism which preceded them all as a monotheistic language. It is also notable that Hinduism has always been a monotheistic religion, just an all inclusive one, and in more than just that way they are quite ahead of the West in their views on how the Absolute can express ITSELF.
However, then there is the idea of Rama, who according to one author that Mr. Twitchell borrowed the idea of an archetype from, also connected that argumentative idea among the linguists between Germanic languages and Sanskrit, by claiming that one figure shone the light of spirituality on a majority of the word, however, no one human ever did that. But there were a number of prophets before Zarathustra, he being the 28th in a direct line in Persia alone, and of course those people, the Kurds, knew from that first prophet, that the name of God was HU. And this was passed down at the very least to these 27 prophets, the last of whom merely gave the name AHUra Mazda to God without changing the path itself from what it had begun as. And so also those two letters are found in many of the sky or Creator Gods of various cultures, a thing that indicates very clearly that at one point in time that seriously WAS the name of God that everyone knew about. This is very hard for some to accept however, being so attached to the previously accepted truths, but hey, one always chooses their own chains, and are never truly enslaved unless they allow themselves to be. And so it is, a literal choice!

Post by godzilla

Post by Kinpa
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
It really makes no difference, it is simply another word used to refer to the Divine Being....but chances are that it originated from Sarmad which also means "the Eternal."
ALL names and words, number and symbols are mental, and have no ability to be otherwise, and for that reason literally any word can be used so long as the INTENT used therein centers on the Eternal Being of the Absolute which does in fact literally exist. The hardest thing about proving that to one's self is in attaining the direct experience of IT.
To limit the things that come into the Self to being only those that can be obtained from the 5 senses and from the mind, makes itself a wall that blocks any direct experience, but jumping over it and "out of the box" makes achieving it far easier to accomplish.
Free yourself and do not allow yourself to be trapped by the same mental chains that so many others allow to hold them in.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
And so it goes.......

And far more about HU, rather than Sugmad for just a moment....
from The Flaming Door: Mission of the Celtic Fold Soul
by Eleanor C. Merry, 1936
"And that which came to meet the soul (as light and sound come to meet our outer eyes and ears) was called HU, the spiritual world." (p. 137)
"The God HU was the all-ruling Divinity of Western Celtic mythology. He represented the power and the glory of the spiritual world." (p. 153)
"The Mysteries of HU revealed the other pole of human life: the ascent out of the body into the 'glorified' state of expansion of the consciousness in the spiritual world." (p. 153)
"And HU could bring music to the consciousness of waking man and teach it to him, because he himself could hear in sleep the harmonies of the spheres, and his passage from waking to sleeping to waking was unbroken by any obliteration of consciousness. This was always the summit of initiation experience." (p. 165)
---
The Book of Druidry
by Ross Nichols
"HU or Heu'c', who is also Hu Gadarn and Hesus or Esus. The Heu'c sound seems to identify with the name or sound for spirit, identified with breath, very general and coming from very far in time and space." (p. 124)
"HU or He was the seed or essence, the form of deity that like littel Gwion is transformed from least to greatest: HU, the unpronounced either with a light i-sound as he or heu'h, is the creative word, the seed of fire, the first sound." (p. 128)
----
The Religions of Tibet
by Giuseppe Tucci
"The figure of the creator, who corresponds to the Isvara of certain Saivite schools, bear various names, among them sNang ba ód Idan, Kun snang khyab pa and khri khug rgyal po. That which he creates has two aspects, the exterior world (phyi snod) and that contained within it (bcud), a division that corresponds to that between the Indian bhajana-loka and sattva-loka. The cosmology which is attached to this is surely very old, and is throughout constructed on a dualist basis. From the breath which streamed out of the creator there emerged two syllables HU HU, and progressively, the entire universe."
----
an encycklopedic outline of Masonic, Hermetic,
Cabbalistic and Rosicrucian Symbolic Philosophy
by Manly P. Hall
"Their temples wherein the sacred fire was preserved were generally situate on eminences and in dense groves of oak, because a circle was the emblem of the universe; oval, in allusion to the mundane egg, from which issued, according to the traditions of many nations, the universe, or, according to others our first parents; serpentine, because a serpent was the symbol of HU, the Druidic Osiris; cruciform because a cross is an emblem of regeneration; or winged, to represent the motion of the divine spirit.*** Their chief deities were reducible to two - a male and a female, the great father and mother - HU and Cridwen, distinguished by the same characteristics as belong to Osiris and Isis, Bacchus and Ceres, or any other supreme goddess representing the two principles of all Being."
"Godfrey Higgins states that HU, the Mighty, regarded as the first settler of Britain, came from a place which the Welsh Triads call the summer country, the present site of Constantinople. Albert Pike says that the Lost Word of Masonry is concealed in the name of the Druid god HU. The meager information extant concerning the secret initiations of the Druids indicates a decided similarity between their Mystery school and the schools of Greece and Egypt. HU, the sun God, was murdered and, after a number of ordeals and mystic rituals, was restored to life."
-------
The Sirius Connection
by Murry Hope
____________
From the aforegoing, it may be seen that the leonine archetype assumed great significance in all Egyptian thinking, from the cosmological to the everyday. Lion gods and spirits were therefore looked upon as the guardians of all places and property, and the heads were often carved to represent members of the family, priests, priestesses, or Pharaohs and their wives. The Greeks called these 'sphinxes'. One of the names of the Egyptian Sphinx was HU, 'the protector'; another was Hor-em-akhet or 'Horus of the Horizon'which immediately connects its erection with those enigmatical 'Sons (or Followers) of Horus' the Shemsu-Hor. Curiously enough, the name 'HU' also occurs in the Celtic myth of Hu Gadam, an Atlantean person from the sea who guided a band of settlers to the prehistoric shores of Wales. There is also an uncanny similarity of sound between the names Hu Gadam and the Tuatha de Danaans (pronounced Tuar-de-Danans), those strange fairy people with magical powers who, according to legend, landed on the shores of prehistoric Ireland. (p. 197)
----
The Message of The Sphinx
by Graham Hancock & Robert Bauval
"When speaking of the Sphinx, the Ancient Egyptians frequently made use of the Harranian derivation Hwl, but they also knew it by many other names: HU, for example..." (p. 5)
-----
A Dictionary of Egyptian Gods and Goddesses
by George Hart
HU - The god who personifies the authority of a word of command.
Hu came into being from a drop of blood from the phallus of the sun-god Re.
When, according to the theology of the Pyramid Age, the king becomes a lone star, his companion is Hu. The royal authority is maintained in the Afterlife by Hu acknowledging the king's supremacy and allowing the monarch to cross the waters of his canal.
It is tempting to correlate Hu with the power of the tongue of Ptah in the Memphite creation legend, commanding the universeinto existence, at the instigation of Ptah's heart. (p. 97)
-------
There! Just for fun it is clearly proven that these three seemingly unrelated cultures all used Hu....but then there is more to clearly demonstrate that the ancients traded around the world, and it makes no difference if the Aryans brought Hu with them or not, because one thing they did NOT bring, was Hinduism....in fact many say the origin of the white race occurred from Tamils that happened to be albino...that would have to have gone somewhere and bred to further introduce the mutation that caused it....it makes little difference if one considers humanity to have sprung in Africa, or Australia (Aboriginal bloodlines are found within the races of South America) or any of the Tamil, who were southern Indian.....
http://www.heritagedaily.com/2016/05/ancient-irish-musical-history-found-in-modern-india/111201
Did vastly different cultures all develop the same language and ideas separately? or was it the more likely option that they interacted and we modern humans mistake the fact that were are simply not the first to have crossed the oceans.....the Mayan sky/Creator God comes to mind, Hunab Ku...and remember that one of the previous books was speaking about Tibetan tradition...and the fact that now Indo-European language is what nearly all of the dialects spoken on earth root back into...the tower of Babel indeed....

Typical changing of the subject by Kinpa once again.
And what was that about using other people's sources? Something you criticized Sean for? You should know that just because someone writes something down, or claims it to be so that doesn't make it true. Paul created multiple tall tales and these may live in people's imaginations, but is no proof of ever actually happening.
Proof has been shown to you many times over how many authors Twitchell copied from and how many times he changed things to "outfit" them for Eckankar. Thus, what Paul wrote can be explored for what it really was. If it hurts your own imagination to learn the truth that is not my fault. And if you get angry and need to talk poop, etc. about those who show you the truth then this is on you.

Still crying because your life is tripe....enjoy the tripe you consume....regurgitated fecies are still fecies....you are dismissed little man!

You only show your own littleness and full of crapness by pointing out someone elses. Seems to be an integral part of you.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
And you your own by this response when I hadn't addressed you. Enjoy the fruits of your labors, by all means! ;)


You revel in your own crap (BS), and project it onto others in quite an egotistical - or should I say full-blown-died-in-the-wool-Eckist - way.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Yet another meaningless opinion? Seriously? Both typical and sad.


Congratulations - shithead number 1, come to the head of the class. Let us all bask in your glorious smell miss Kinpa! You certainly deserve it.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Right back at you! Bask in your own aromas....enjoy them!




And I'm sure the P-man has his chorus of angels singing the glorious HU for all the many heavens to hear, solely in your honor.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
And now you're just lying, you aren't sure of anything at all. There is no reason that anyone would waste my time with any so called angels singing anything....but hey, keep running at the mouth....as I said before, e\thoroughly enjoy the fruits of your labors here! I certainly will!



And let's not forget the Klemptomaniac. I'm sure he's projecting his astral body to all of his loyal followers thru out the infinite universe, and impressing upon them his praise for all of your intellectual bravado and high-mindedness, which you exhibit in spades. Take a bow, Miss Kinpa! All glory to Sigmund-the-sea-monster!!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
If this was meant to upset me, it failed on grand scale....but that is a thing you must certainly be well used to by now......you are dismissed...

[Kinpa]

Post by Etznab

Post by m***@verizon.net

Post by Kinpa

Post by Etznab

Post by Kinpa

Post by Kinpa

Post by godzilla
Kinpa, a completely valid response, thanks your insights.
I still find it interesting that in the 14 years since OP asked, no one has found the unequivocal source of 'SUGMAD' of Paul's writing. Sure I get the logic of why it doesn't matter, etc. I guess it doesn't stop the curiosity, however.
Most everything else Paul wrote about, folks have aligned with some source. But not Sugmad, not yet anyway. Enigmatic it is.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

This is true, and despite identifying a source fr one term or the other there are 2 in particular that would choose to believe that Paul Twitchell, and any others, have no right to reinterpret any terms in ways other than that source material's interpretations...this is of course unequivocally an extremely limited point of view, that they may of course insist upon, however, the have no right to insist upon it as it concerns any OTHER persons!
THAT is the simple truth of the matter! If Paul Twitchell chose to create the name Sugmad out of thin air, whether based upon the term Sarmad, or any other usage of any aspect of the term Sukhmani, makes absolutely NO difference for the reasons I stated before. ALL words are mere mental substitutions for concepts and ideas, which are also mental things....any Soul CAN experience beyond the mind and emotions, and that is the challenge of the whole idea of spirituality, to actually DO that! I have, and care not even a little bit about what anyone else's opinions of it might be! All the while others continually insist that I hear their opinions....which only makes them seem ever more desperate for recognition that they will never receive, especially being that in every case others have done the research and handed those sources to them.
Regardless of anyone's problems with Doug Marman and the views he has expressed in his book, I simply do not agree, and find his conclusions completely valid, and definitely far more-so than the assertion of one of these persons, that St. Matthew of Christian fame plagiarized some Buddhist texts, which is of course a completely ridiculous idea because of the simple fact that there was no such thing as plagiarism in any country, empire, or culture upon the face of the earth until the early 1700's....in reality the only thing that assertion proves is that Judea was well acquainted with the various systems of wisdom from the near and far East, but even an idiot-savant can easily recognize that!
However, allow me to thank you for stating your own opinion of the matter, and I couldn't care less whether it agrees with mine or doesn't, you have every right to having one of your own, whether or not anyone else agrees with it, and if you are one who also has had any level of inner experience with these concepts, then more power to you for continually seeking ever expanding degrees of experience and understanding!

Post by godzilla

Post by Kinpa

I'm searching/researching on the origin/source of the name "Sugmad" used in
the Eck writings. I know Paul said it was an ancient Chinese name for
God...at other places I've read that it's Persian.
I've done extensive and productive Inet-research on "Hu"...but I'm wondering
if anyone can spare me some re-invention of the wheel...what have you found?
Where does "Sugmad" come from? For example, is it borrowed from the Sufi's?
[I think not. But I did find alot of HU there, for example]
Appreciate any links or guidance....thanx!
Blessings,
_g

---------------------------------------------------------------------
A further statement about Hu, although it has already been mentioned, is that it originates from the Sanskrit, but it also emerges from Europe amongst the Germanic tongues, which is why etymologists have never agreed on it overall....this is because they have not yet been able to understand how the many languages of the world are connected through the existence of a worldwide proto-language. In recent decades there has been a great amount of advancement of that however. Hindi is very closely related to English, as well as Persian, and the even older Kurdish. I have been in contact with a Kurdish author who has been having me rewrite his books to make them more accessible to the English speaking world, his writings being about the most prejudiced against treated race in the Middle-East, the white Kurds. It has taken years for the rest of the world to recognize that Judaism and likewise Christianity and Islam, sprang from Zoroastrianism which preceded them all as a monotheistic language. It is also notable that Hinduism has always been a monotheistic religion, just an all inclusive one, and in more than just that way they are quite ahead of the West in their views on how the Absolute can express ITSELF.
However, then there is the idea of Rama, who according to one author that Mr. Twitchell borrowed the idea of an archetype from, also connected that argumentative idea among the linguists between Germanic languages and Sanskrit, by claiming that one figure shone the light of spirituality on a majority of the word, however, no one human ever did that. But there were a number of prophets before Zarathustra, he being the 28th in a direct line in Persia alone, and of course those people, the Kurds, knew from that first prophet, that the name of God was HU. And this was passed down at the very least to these 27 prophets, the last of whom merely gave the name AHUra Mazda to God without changing the path itself from what it had begun as. And so also those two letters are found in many of the sky or Creator Gods of various cultures, a thing that indicates very clearly that at one point in time that seriously WAS the name of God that everyone knew about. This is very hard for some to accept however, being so attached to the previously accepted truths, but hey, one always chooses their own chains, and are never truly enslaved unless they allow themselves to be. And so it is, a literal choice!

Post by godzilla

Post by Kinpa
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
It really makes no difference, it is simply another word used to refer to the Divine Being....but chances are that it originated from Sarmad which also means "the Eternal."
ALL names and words, number and symbols are mental, and have no ability to be otherwise, and for that reason literally any word can be used so long as the INTENT used therein centers on the Eternal Being of the Absolute which does in fact literally exist. The hardest thing about proving that to one's self is in attaining the direct experience of IT.
To limit the things that come into the Self to being only those that can be obtained from the 5 senses and from the mind, makes itself a wall that blocks any direct experience, but jumping over it and "out of the box" makes achieving it far easier to accomplish.
Free yourself and do not allow yourself to be trapped by the same mental chains that so many others allow to hold them in.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
And so it goes.......

And far more about HU, rather than Sugmad for just a moment....
from The Flaming Door: Mission of the Celtic Fold Soul
by Eleanor C. Merry, 1936
"And that which came to meet the soul (as light and sound come to meet our outer eyes and ears) was called HU, the spiritual world." (p. 137)
"The God HU was the all-ruling Divinity of Western Celtic mythology. He represented the power and the glory of the spiritual world." (p. 153)
"The Mysteries of HU revealed the other pole of human life: the ascent out of the body into the 'glorified' state of expansion of the consciousness in the spiritual world." (p. 153)
"And HU could bring music to the consciousness of waking man and teach it to him, because he himself could hear in sleep the harmonies of the spheres, and his passage from waking to sleeping to waking was unbroken by any obliteration of consciousness. This was always the summit of initiation experience." (p. 165)
---
The Book of Druidry
by Ross Nichols
"HU or Heu'c', who is also Hu Gadarn and Hesus or Esus. The Heu'c sound seems to identify with the name or sound for spirit, identified with breath, very general and coming from very far in time and space." (p. 124)
"HU or He was the seed or essence, the form of deity that like littel Gwion is transformed from least to greatest: HU, the unpronounced either with a light i-sound as he or heu'h, is the creative word, the seed of fire, the first sound." (p. 128)
----
The Religions of Tibet
by Giuseppe Tucci
"The figure of the creator, who corresponds to the Isvara of certain Saivite schools, bear various names, among them sNang ba ód Idan, Kun snang khyab pa and khri khug rgyal po. That which he creates has two aspects, the exterior world (phyi snod) and that contained within it (bcud), a division that corresponds to that between the Indian bhajana-loka and sattva-loka. The cosmology which is attached to this is surely very old, and is throughout constructed on a dualist basis. From the breath which streamed out of the creator there emerged two syllables HU HU, and progressively, the entire universe."
----
an encycklopedic outline of Masonic, Hermetic,
Cabbalistic and Rosicrucian Symbolic Philosophy
by Manly P. Hall
"Their temples wherein the sacred fire was preserved were generally situate on eminences and in dense groves of oak, because a circle was the emblem of the universe; oval, in allusion to the mundane egg, from which issued, according to the traditions of many nations, the universe, or, according to others our first parents; serpentine, because a serpent was the symbol of HU, the Druidic Osiris; cruciform because a cross is an emblem of regeneration; or winged, to represent the motion of the divine spirit.*** Their chief deities were reducible to two - a male and a female, the great father and mother - HU and Cridwen, distinguished by the same characteristics as belong to Osiris and Isis, Bacchus and Ceres, or any other supreme goddess representing the two principles of all Being."
"Godfrey Higgins states that HU, the Mighty, regarded as the first settler of Britain, came from a place which the Welsh Triads call the summer country, the present site of Constantinople. Albert Pike says that the Lost Word of Masonry is concealed in the name of the Druid god HU. The meager information extant concerning the secret initiations of the Druids indicates a decided similarity between their Mystery school and the schools of Greece and Egypt. HU, the sun God, was murdered and, after a number of ordeals and mystic rituals, was restored to life."
-------
The Sirius Connection
by Murry Hope
____________
From the aforegoing, it may be seen that the leonine archetype assumed great significance in all Egyptian thinking, from the cosmological to the everyday. Lion gods and spirits were therefore looked upon as the guardians of all places and property, and the heads were often carved to represent members of the family, priests, priestesses, or Pharaohs and their wives. The Greeks called these 'sphinxes'. One of the names of the Egyptian Sphinx was HU, 'the protector'; another was Hor-em-akhet or 'Horus of the Horizon'which immediately connects its erection with those enigmatical 'Sons (or Followers) of Horus' the Shemsu-Hor. Curiously enough, the name 'HU' also occurs in the Celtic myth of Hu Gadam, an Atlantean person from the sea who guided a band of settlers to the prehistoric shores of Wales. There is also an uncanny similarity of sound between the names Hu Gadam and the Tuatha de Danaans (pronounced Tuar-de-Danans), those strange fairy people with magical powers who, according to legend, landed on the shores of prehistoric Ireland. (p. 197)
----
The Message of The Sphinx
by Graham Hancock & Robert Bauval
"When speaking of the Sphinx, the Ancient Egyptians frequently made use of the Harranian derivation Hwl, but they also knew it by many other names: HU, for example..." (p. 5)
-----
A Dictionary of Egyptian Gods and Goddesses
by George Hart
HU - The god who personifies the authority of a word of command.
Hu came into being from a drop of blood from the phallus of the sun-god Re.
When, according to the theology of the Pyramid Age, the king becomes a lone star, his companion is Hu. The royal authority is maintained in the Afterlife by Hu acknowledging the king's supremacy and allowing the monarch to cross the waters of his canal.
It is tempting to correlate Hu with the power of the tongue of Ptah in the Memphite creation legend, commanding the universeinto existence, at the instigation of Ptah's heart. (p. 97)
-------
There! Just for fun it is clearly proven that these three seemingly unrelated cultures all used Hu....but then there is more to clearly demonstrate that the ancients traded around the world, and it makes no difference if the Aryans brought Hu with them or not, because one thing they did NOT bring, was Hinduism....in fact many say the origin of the white race occurred from Tamils that happened to be albino...that would have to have gone somewhere and bred to further introduce the mutation that caused it....it makes little difference if one considers humanity to have sprung in Africa, or Australia (Aboriginal bloodlines are found within the races of South America) or any of the Tamil, who were southern Indian.....
http://www.heritagedaily.com/2016/05/ancient-irish-musical-history-found-in-modern-india/111201
Did vastly different cultures all develop the same language and ideas separately? or was it the more likely option that they interacted and we modern humans mistake the fact that were are simply not the first to have crossed the oceans.....the Mayan sky/Creator God comes to mind, Hunab Ku...and remember that one of the previous books was speaking about Tibetan tradition...and the fact that now Indo-European language is what nearly all of the dialects spoken on earth root back into...the tower of Babel indeed....

Typical changing of the subject by Kinpa once again.
And what was that about using other people's sources? Something you criticized Sean for? You should know that just because someone writes something down, or claims it to be so that doesn't make it true. Paul created multiple tall tales and these may live in people's imaginations, but is no proof of ever actually happening.
Proof has been shown to you many times over how many authors Twitchell copied from and how many times he changed things to "outfit" them for Eckankar. Thus, what Paul wrote can be explored for what it really was. If it hurts your own imagination to learn the truth that is not my fault. And if you get angry and need to talk poop, etc. about those who show you the truth then this is on you.

Still crying because your life is tripe....enjoy the tripe you consume....regurgitated fecies are still fecies....you are dismissed little man!

You only show your own littleness and full of crapness by pointing out someone elses. Seems to be an integral part of you.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
And you your own by this response when I hadn't addressed you. Enjoy the fruits of your labors, by all means! ;)
You revel in your own crap (BS), and project it onto others in quite an egotistical - or should I say full-blown-died-in-the-wool-Eckist - way.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Yet another meaningless opinion? Seriously? Both typical and sad.
Congratulations - shithead number 1, come to the head of the class. Let us all bask in your glorious smell miss Kinpa! You certainly deserve it.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Right back at you! Bask in your own aromas....enjoy them!
And I'm sure the P-man has his chorus of angels singing the glorious HU for all the many heavens to hear, solely in your honor.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
And now you're just lying, you aren't sure of anything at all. There is no reason that anyone would waste my time with any so called angels singing anything....but hey, keep running at the mouth....as I said before, e\thoroughly enjoy the fruits of your labors here! I certainly will!
And let's not forget the Klemptomaniac. I'm sure he's projecting his astral body to all of his loyal followers thru out the infinite universe, and impressing upon them his praise for all of your intellectual bravado and high-mindedness, which you exhibit in spades. Take a bow, Miss Kinpa! All glory to Sigmund-the-sea-monster!!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
If this was meant to upset me, it failed on grand scale....but that is a thing you must certainly be well used to by now......you are dismissed...

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[m***@verizon.net]

Post by Etznab

Post by Etznab

Post by m***@verizon.net

Post by Kinpa

Post by Etznab

Post by Kinpa

Post by Kinpa

Post by godzilla
Kinpa, a completely valid response, thanks your insights.
I still find it interesting that in the 14 years since OP asked, no one has found the unequivocal source of 'SUGMAD' of Paul's writing. Sure I get the logic of why it doesn't matter, etc. I guess it doesn't stop the curiosity, however.
Most everything else Paul wrote about, folks have aligned with some source. But not Sugmad, not yet anyway. Enigmatic it is.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

This is true, and despite identifying a source fr one term or the other there are 2 in particular that would choose to believe that Paul Twitchell, and any others, have no right to reinterpret any terms in ways other than that source material's interpretations...this is of course unequivocally an extremely limited point of view, that they may of course insist upon, however, the have no right to insist upon it as it concerns any OTHER persons!
THAT is the simple truth of the matter! If Paul Twitchell chose to create the name Sugmad out of thin air, whether based upon the term Sarmad, or any other usage of any aspect of the term Sukhmani, makes absolutely NO difference for the reasons I stated before. ALL words are mere mental substitutions for concepts and ideas, which are also mental things....any Soul CAN experience beyond the mind and emotions, and that is the challenge of the whole idea of spirituality, to actually DO that! I have, and care not even a little bit about what anyone else's opinions of it might be! All the while others continually insist that I hear their opinions....which only makes them seem ever more desperate for recognition that they will never receive, especially being that in every case others have done the research and handed those sources to them.
Regardless of anyone's problems with Doug Marman and the views he has expressed in his book, I simply do not agree, and find his conclusions completely valid, and definitely far more-so than the assertion of one of these persons, that St. Matthew of Christian fame plagiarized some Buddhist texts, which is of course a completely ridiculous idea because of the simple fact that there was no such thing as plagiarism in any country, empire, or culture upon the face of the earth until the early 1700's....in reality the only thing that assertion proves is that Judea was well acquainted with the various systems of wisdom from the near and far East, but even an idiot-savant can easily recognize that!
However, allow me to thank you for stating your own opinion of the matter, and I couldn't care less whether it agrees with mine or doesn't, you have every right to having one of your own, whether or not anyone else agrees with it, and if you are one who also has had any level of inner experience with these concepts, then more power to you for continually seeking ever expanding degrees of experience and understanding!

Post by godzilla

Post by Kinpa

I'm searching/researching on the origin/source of the name "Sugmad" used in
the Eck writings. I know Paul said it was an ancient Chinese name for
God...at other places I've read that it's Persian.
I've done extensive and productive Inet-research on "Hu"...but I'm wondering
if anyone can spare me some re-invention of the wheel...what have you found?
Where does "Sugmad" come from? For example, is it borrowed from the Sufi's?
[I think not. But I did find alot of HU there, for example]
Appreciate any links or guidance....thanx!
Blessings,
_g

---------------------------------------------------------------------
A further statement about Hu, although it has already been mentioned, is that it originates from the Sanskrit, but it also emerges from Europe amongst the Germanic tongues, which is why etymologists have never agreed on it overall....this is because they have not yet been able to understand how the many languages of the world are connected through the existence of a worldwide proto-language. In recent decades there has been a great amount of advancement of that however. Hindi is very closely related to English, as well as Persian, and the even older Kurdish. I have been in contact with a Kurdish author who has been having me rewrite his books to make them more accessible to the English speaking world, his writings being about the most prejudiced against treated race in the Middle-East, the white Kurds. It has taken years for the rest of the world to recognize that Judaism and likewise Christianity and Islam, sprang from Zoroastrianism which preceded them all as a monotheistic language. It is also notable that Hinduism has always been a monotheistic religion, just an all inclusive one, and in more than just that way they are quite ahead of the West in their views on how the Absolute can express ITSELF.
However, then there is the idea of Rama, who according to one author that Mr. Twitchell borrowed the idea of an archetype from, also connected that argumentative idea among the linguists between Germanic languages and Sanskrit, by claiming that one figure shone the light of spirituality on a majority of the word, however, no one human ever did that. But there were a number of prophets before Zarathustra, he being the 28th in a direct line in Persia alone, and of course those people, the Kurds, knew from that first prophet, that the name of God was HU. And this was passed down at the very least to these 27 prophets, the last of whom merely gave the name AHUra Mazda to God without changing the path itself from what it had begun as. And so also those two letters are found in many of the sky or Creator Gods of various cultures, a thing that indicates very clearly that at one point in time that seriously WAS the name of God that everyone knew about. This is very hard for some to accept however, being so attached to the previously accepted truths, but hey, one always chooses their own chains, and are never truly enslaved unless they allow themselves to be. And so it is, a literal choice!

Post by godzilla

Post by Kinpa
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
It really makes no difference, it is simply another word used to refer to the Divine Being....but chances are that it originated from Sarmad which also means "the Eternal."
ALL names and words, number and symbols are mental, and have no ability to be otherwise, and for that reason literally any word can be used so long as the INTENT used therein centers on the Eternal Being of the Absolute which does in fact literally exist. The hardest thing about proving that to one's self is in attaining the direct experience of IT.
To limit the things that come into the Self to being only those that can be obtained from the 5 senses and from the mind, makes itself a wall that blocks any direct experience, but jumping over it and "out of the box" makes achieving it far easier to accomplish.
Free yourself and do not allow yourself to be trapped by the same mental chains that so many others allow to hold them in.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
And so it goes.......

And far more about HU, rather than Sugmad for just a moment....
from The Flaming Door: Mission of the Celtic Fold Soul
by Eleanor C. Merry, 1936
"And that which came to meet the soul (as light and sound come to meet our outer eyes and ears) was called HU, the spiritual world." (p. 137)
"The God HU was the all-ruling Divinity of Western Celtic mythology. He represented the power and the glory of the spiritual world." (p. 153)
"The Mysteries of HU revealed the other pole of human life: the ascent out of the body into the 'glorified' state of expansion of the consciousness in the spiritual world." (p. 153)
"And HU could bring music to the consciousness of waking man and teach it to him, because he himself could hear in sleep the harmonies of the spheres, and his passage from waking to sleeping to waking was unbroken by any obliteration of consciousness. This was always the summit of initiation experience." (p. 165)
---
The Book of Druidry
by Ross Nichols
"HU or Heu'c', who is also Hu Gadarn and Hesus or Esus. The Heu'c sound seems to identify with the name or sound for spirit, identified with breath, very general and coming from very far in time and space." (p. 124)
"HU or He was the seed or essence, the form of deity that like littel Gwion is transformed from least to greatest: HU, the unpronounced either with a light i-sound as he or heu'h, is the creative word, the seed of fire, the first sound." (p. 128)
----
The Religions of Tibet
by Giuseppe Tucci
"The figure of the creator, who corresponds to the Isvara of certain Saivite schools, bear various names, among them sNang ba ód Idan, Kun snang khyab pa and khri khug rgyal po. That which he creates has two aspects, the exterior world (phyi snod) and that contained within it (bcud), a division that corresponds to that between the Indian bhajana-loka and sattva-loka. The cosmology which is attached to this is surely very old, and is throughout constructed on a dualist basis. From the breath which streamed out of the creator there emerged two syllables HU HU, and progressively, the entire universe."
----
an encycklopedic outline of Masonic, Hermetic,
Cabbalistic and Rosicrucian Symbolic Philosophy
by Manly P. Hall
"Their temples wherein the sacred fire was preserved were generally situate on eminences and in dense groves of oak, because a circle was the emblem of the universe; oval, in allusion to the mundane egg, from which issued, according to the traditions of many nations, the universe, or, according to others our first parents; serpentine, because a serpent was the symbol of HU, the Druidic Osiris; cruciform because a cross is an emblem of regeneration; or winged, to represent the motion of the divine spirit.*** Their chief deities were reducible to two - a male and a female, the great father and mother - HU and Cridwen, distinguished by the same characteristics as belong to Osiris and Isis, Bacchus and Ceres, or any other supreme goddess representing the two principles of all Being."
"Godfrey Higgins states that HU, the Mighty, regarded as the first settler of Britain, came from a place which the Welsh Triads call the summer country, the present site of Constantinople. Albert Pike says that the Lost Word of Masonry is concealed in the name of the Druid god HU. The meager information extant concerning the secret initiations of the Druids indicates a decided similarity between their Mystery school and the schools of Greece and Egypt. HU, the sun God, was murdered and, after a number of ordeals and mystic rituals, was restored to life."
-------
The Sirius Connection
by Murry Hope
____________
From the aforegoing, it may be seen that the leonine archetype assumed great significance in all Egyptian thinking, from the cosmological to the everyday. Lion gods and spirits were therefore looked upon as the guardians of all places and property, and the heads were often carved to represent members of the family, priests, priestesses, or Pharaohs and their wives. The Greeks called these 'sphinxes'. One of the names of the Egyptian Sphinx was HU, 'the protector'; another was Hor-em-akhet or 'Horus of the Horizon'which immediately connects its erection with those enigmatical 'Sons (or Followers) of Horus' the Shemsu-Hor. Curiously enough, the name 'HU' also occurs in the Celtic myth of Hu Gadam, an Atlantean person from the sea who guided a band of settlers to the prehistoric shores of Wales. There is also an uncanny similarity of sound between the names Hu Gadam and the Tuatha de Danaans (pronounced Tuar-de-Danans), those strange fairy people with magical powers who, according to legend, landed on the shores of prehistoric Ireland. (p. 197)
----
The Message of The Sphinx
by Graham Hancock & Robert Bauval
"When speaking of the Sphinx, the Ancient Egyptians frequently made use of the Harranian derivation Hwl, but they also knew it by many other names: HU, for example..." (p. 5)
-----
A Dictionary of Egyptian Gods and Goddesses
by George Hart
HU - The god who personifies the authority of a word of command.
Hu came into being from a drop of blood from the phallus of the sun-god Re.
When, according to the theology of the Pyramid Age, the king becomes a lone star, his companion is Hu. The royal authority is maintained in the Afterlife by Hu acknowledging the king's supremacy and allowing the monarch to cross the waters of his canal.
It is tempting to correlate Hu with the power of the tongue of Ptah in the Memphite creation legend, commanding the universeinto existence, at the instigation of Ptah's heart. (p. 97)
-------
There! Just for fun it is clearly proven that these three seemingly unrelated cultures all used Hu....but then there is more to clearly demonstrate that the ancients traded around the world, and it makes no difference if the Aryans brought Hu with them or not, because one thing they did NOT bring, was Hinduism....in fact many say the origin of the white race occurred from Tamils that happened to be albino...that would have to have gone somewhere and bred to further introduce the mutation that caused it....it makes little difference if one considers humanity to have sprung in Africa, or Australia (Aboriginal bloodlines are found within the races of South America) or any of the Tamil, who were southern Indian.....
http://www.heritagedaily.com/2016/05/ancient-irish-musical-history-found-in-modern-india/111201
Did vastly different cultures all develop the same language and ideas separately? or was it the more likely option that they interacted and we modern humans mistake the fact that were are simply not the first to have crossed the oceans.....the Mayan sky/Creator God comes to mind, Hunab Ku...and remember that one of the previous books was speaking about Tibetan tradition...and the fact that now Indo-European language is what nearly all of the dialects spoken on earth root back into...the tower of Babel indeed....

Typical changing of the subject by Kinpa once again.
And what was that about using other people's sources? Something you criticized Sean for? You should know that just because someone writes something down, or claims it to be so that doesn't make it true. Paul created multiple tall tales and these may live in people's imaginations, but is no proof of ever actually happening.
Proof has been shown to you many times over how many authors Twitchell copied from and how many times he changed things to "outfit" them for Eckankar. Thus, what Paul wrote can be explored for what it really was. If it hurts your own imagination to learn the truth that is not my fault. And if you get angry and need to talk poop, etc. about those who show you the truth then this is on you.

Still crying because your life is tripe....enjoy the tripe you consume....regurgitated fecies are still fecies....you are dismissed little man!

You only show your own littleness and full of crapness by pointing out someone elses. Seems to be an integral part of you.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
And you your own by this response when I hadn't addressed you. Enjoy the fruits of your labors, by all means! ;)
You revel in your own crap (BS), and project it onto others in quite an egotistical - or should I say full-blown-died-in-the-wool-Eckist - way.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Yet another meaningless opinion? Seriously? Both typical and sad.
Congratulations - shithead number 1, come to the head of the class. Let us all bask in your glorious smell miss Kinpa! You certainly deserve it.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Right back at you! Bask in your own aromas....enjoy them!
And I'm sure the P-man has his chorus of angels singing the glorious HU for all the many heavens to hear, solely in your honor.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
And now you're just lying, you aren't sure of anything at all. There is no reason that anyone would waste my time with any so called angels singing anything....but hey, keep running at the mouth....as I said before, e\thoroughly enjoy the fruits of your labors here! I certainly will!
And let's not forget the Klemptomaniac. I'm sure he's projecting his astral body to all of his loyal followers thru out the infinite universe, and impressing upon them his praise for all of your intellectual bravado and high-mindedness, which you exhibit in spades. Take a bow, Miss Kinpa! All glory to Sigmund-the-sea-monster!!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
If this was meant to upset me, it failed on grand scale....but that is a thing you must certainly be well used to by now......you are dismissed...

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
http://youtu.be/-_qMagfZtv8

Yeah, you sure "do do" it to yourself (pun intended) :D

[m***@verizon.net]

Ahhhh.... such grand thoughts. I'm sure you make the Klemptomaniac proud with such grandiosity of thought and feeling. The HU-man wannabe. Rise and take a bow little girl. Let the whole world know just how much spirituality exists in that Titan-like mind of yours. Such a way with words you have, Master-in-training. You must have what, 11 or 13 initiations by now? The Hair-man must have his third eye focussed intently on you, waiting for the moment to pass all of that power on to YOU, with his big ole ROD!

[m***@verizon.net]

It occured to me today that the word Sugmad may have come from Sigmund, as in Sigmund Freud, who's psychological ideas were quite in vogue during Twitchell's time. A slight alteration in the name, keeping in tune with Twitchell's alteration of the "truth," giving it more power, however silly it sounds. A subcoscious suggestion, as it were, creating a link between the creator of modern psychology, who may have been perceived as a "god" to many, and GOD, creator of all that is.

How Eck Masterly of him! 😆

[Etznab]

Post by Kinpa

Post by godzilla
Kinpa, a completely valid response, thanks your insights.
I still find it interesting that in the 14 years since OP asked, no one has found the unequivocal source of 'SUGMAD' of Paul's writing. Sure I get the logic of why it doesn't matter, etc. I guess it doesn't stop the curiosity, however.
Most everything else Paul wrote about, folks have aligned with some source. But not Sugmad, not yet anyway. Enigmatic it is.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

This is true, and despite identifying a source fr one term or the other there are 2 in particular that would choose to believe that Paul Twitchell, and any others, have no right to reinterpret any terms in ways other than that source material's interpretations...this is of course unequivocally an extremely limited point of view, that they may of course insist upon, however, the have no right to insist upon it as it concerns any OTHER persons!
THAT is the simple truth of the matter! If Paul Twitchell chose to create the name Sugmad out of thin air, whether based upon the term Sarmad, or any other usage of any aspect of the term Sukhmani, makes absolutely NO difference for the reasons I stated before. ALL words are mere mental substitutions for concepts and ideas, which are also mental things....any Soul CAN experience beyond the mind and emotions, and that is the challenge of the whole idea of spirituality, to actually DO that! I have, and care not even a little bit about what anyone else's opinions of it might be! All the while others continually insist that I hear their opinions....which only makes them seem ever more desperate for recognition that they will never receive, especially being that in every case others have done the research and handed those sources to them.
Regardless of anyone's problems with Doug Marman and the views he has expressed in his book, I simply do not agree, and find his conclusions completely valid, and definitely far more-so than the assertion of one of these persons, that St. Matthew of Christian fame plagiarized some Buddhist texts, which is of course a completely ridiculous idea because of the simple fact that there was no such thing as plagiarism in any country, empire, or culture upon the face of the earth until the early 1700's....in reality the only thing that assertion proves is that Judea was well acquainted with the various systems of wisdom from the near and far East, but even an idiot-savant can easily recognize that!
However, allow me to thank you for stating your own opinion of the matter, and I couldn't care less whether it agrees with mine or doesn't, you have every right to having one of your own, whether or not anyone else agrees with it, and if you are one who also has had any level of inner experience with these concepts, then more power to you for continually seeking ever expanding degrees of experience and understanding!

Post by godzilla

Post by Kinpa

I'm searching/researching on the origin/source of the name "Sugmad" used in
the Eck writings. I know Paul said it was an ancient Chinese name for
God...at other places I've read that it's Persian.
I've done extensive and productive Inet-research on "Hu"...but I'm wondering
if anyone can spare me some re-invention of the wheel...what have you found?
Where does "Sugmad" come from? For example, is it borrowed from the Sufi's?
[I think not. But I did find alot of HU there, for example]
Appreciate any links or guidance....thanx!
Blessings,
_g

---------------------------------------------------------------------
A further statement about Hu, although it has already been mentioned, is that it originates from the Sanskrit, but it also emerges from Europe amongst the Germanic tongues, which is why etymologists have never agreed on it overall....this is because they have not yet been able to understand how the many languages of the world are connected through the existence of a worldwide proto-language. In recent decades there has been a great amount of advancement of that however. Hindi is very closely related to English, as well as Persian, and the even older Kurdish. I have been in contact with a Kurdish author who has been having me rewrite his books to make them more accessible to the English speaking world, his writings being about the most prejudiced against treated race in the Middle-East, the white Kurds. It has taken years for the rest of the world to recognize that Judaism and likewise Christianity and Islam, sprang from Zoroastrianism which preceded them all as a monotheistic language. It is also notable that Hinduism has always been a monotheistic religion, just an all inclusive one, and in more than just that way they are quite ahead of the West in their views on how the Absolute can express ITSELF.
However, then there is the idea of Rama, who according to one author that Mr. Twitchell borrowed the idea of an archetype from, also connected that argumentative idea among the linguists between Germanic languages and Sanskrit, by claiming that one figure shone the light of spirituality on a majority of the word, however, no one human ever did that. But there were a number of prophets before Zarathustra, he being the 28th in a direct line in Persia alone, and of course those people, the Kurds, knew from that first prophet, that the name of God was HU. And this was passed down at the very least to these 27 prophets, the last of whom merely gave the name AHUra Mazda to God without changing the path itself from what it had begun as. And so also those two letters are found in many of the sky or Creator Gods of various cultures, a thing that indicates very clearly that at one point in time that seriously WAS the name of God that everyone knew about. This is very hard for some to accept however, being so attached to the previously accepted truths, but hey, one always chooses their own chains, and are never truly enslaved unless they allow themselves to be. And so it is, a literal choice!

Post by godzilla

Post by Kinpa
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
It really makes no difference, it is simply another word used to refer to the Divine Being....but chances are that it originated from Sarmad which also means "the Eternal."
ALL names and words, number and symbols are mental, and have no ability to be otherwise, and for that reason literally any word can be used so long as the INTENT used therein centers on the Eternal Being of the Absolute which does in fact literally exist. The hardest thing about proving that to one's self is in attaining the direct experience of IT.
To limit the things that come into the Self to being only those that can be obtained from the 5 senses and from the mind, makes itself a wall that blocks any direct experience, but jumping over it and "out of the box" makes achieving it far easier to accomplish.
Free yourself and do not allow yourself to be trapped by the same mental chains that so many others allow to hold them in.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
And so it goes.......

Paul Twitchell copied verbatim from multiple authors and credited names other than the persons he copied / plagiarized from. This is deception plain and simple. Something you have yet to explain, but only deny. Iow, this shows the creation of pseudo man-made history and religion. None of your immature mental gymnastics and lies can ever totally distract, censor, or cover up these facts.

[Kinpa]

Post by Etznab

Post by Kinpa

Post by godzilla
Kinpa, a completely valid response, thanks your insights.
I still find it interesting that in the 14 years since OP asked, no one has found the unequivocal source of 'SUGMAD' of Paul's writing. Sure I get the logic of why it doesn't matter, etc. I guess it doesn't stop the curiosity, however.
Most everything else Paul wrote about, folks have aligned with some source. But not Sugmad, not yet anyway. Enigmatic it is.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

This is true, and despite identifying a source fr one term or the other there are 2 in particular that would choose to believe that Paul Twitchell, and any others, have no right to reinterpret any terms in ways other than that source material's interpretations...this is of course unequivocally an extremely limited point of view, that they may of course insist upon, however, the have no right to insist upon it as it concerns any OTHER persons!
THAT is the simple truth of the matter! If Paul Twitchell chose to create the name Sugmad out of thin air, whether based upon the term Sarmad, or any other usage of any aspect of the term Sukhmani, makes absolutely NO difference for the reasons I stated before. ALL words are mere mental substitutions for concepts and ideas, which are also mental things....any Soul CAN experience beyond the mind and emotions, and that is the challenge of the whole idea of spirituality, to actually DO that! I have, and care not even a little bit about what anyone else's opinions of it might be! All the while others continually insist that I hear their opinions....which only makes them seem ever more desperate for recognition that they will never receive, especially being that in every case others have done the research and handed those sources to them.
Regardless of anyone's problems with Doug Marman and the views he has expressed in his book, I simply do not agree, and find his conclusions completely valid, and definitely far more-so than the assertion of one of these persons, that St. Matthew of Christian fame plagiarized some Buddhist texts, which is of course a completely ridiculous idea because of the simple fact that there was no such thing as plagiarism in any country, empire, or culture upon the face of the earth until the early 1700's....in reality the only thing that assertion proves is that Judea was well acquainted with the various systems of wisdom from the near and far East, but even an idiot-savant can easily recognize that!
However, allow me to thank you for stating your own opinion of the matter, and I couldn't care less whether it agrees with mine or doesn't, you have every right to having one of your own, whether or not anyone else agrees with it, and if you are one who also has had any level of inner experience with these concepts, then more power to you for continually seeking ever expanding degrees of experience and understanding!

Post by godzilla

Post by Kinpa

I'm searching/researching on the origin/source of the name "Sugmad" used in
the Eck writings. I know Paul said it was an ancient Chinese name for
God...at other places I've read that it's Persian.
I've done extensive and productive Inet-research on "Hu"...but I'm wondering
if anyone can spare me some re-invention of the wheel...what have you found?
Where does "Sugmad" come from? For example, is it borrowed from the Sufi's?
[I think not. But I did find alot of HU there, for example]
Appreciate any links or guidance....thanx!
Blessings,
_g

---------------------------------------------------------------------
A further statement about Hu, although it has already been mentioned, is that it originates from the Sanskrit, but it also emerges from Europe amongst the Germanic tongues, which is why etymologists have never agreed on it overall....this is because they have not yet been able to understand how the many languages of the world are connected through the existence of a worldwide proto-language. In recent decades there has been a great amount of advancement of that however. Hindi is very closely related to English, as well as Persian, and the even older Kurdish. I have been in contact with a Kurdish author who has been having me rewrite his books to make them more accessible to the English speaking world, his writings being about the most prejudiced against treated race in the Middle-East, the white Kurds. It has taken years for the rest of the world to recognize that Judaism and likewise Christianity and Islam, sprang from Zoroastrianism which preceded them all as a monotheistic language. It is also notable that Hinduism has always been a monotheistic religion, just an all inclusive one, and in more than just that way they are quite ahead of the West in their views on how the Absolute can express ITSELF.
However, then there is the idea of Rama, who according to one author that Mr. Twitchell borrowed the idea of an archetype from, also connected that argumentative idea among the linguists between Germanic languages and Sanskrit, by claiming that one figure shone the light of spirituality on a majority of the word, however, no one human ever did that. But there were a number of prophets before Zarathustra, he being the 28th in a direct line in Persia alone, and of course those people, the Kurds, knew from that first prophet, that the name of God was HU. And this was passed down at the very least to these 27 prophets, the last of whom merely gave the name AHUra Mazda to God without changing the path itself from what it had begun as. And so also those two letters are found in many of the sky or Creator Gods of various cultures, a thing that indicates very clearly that at one point in time that seriously WAS the name of God that everyone knew about. This is very hard for some to accept however, being so attached to the previously accepted truths, but hey, one always chooses their own chains, and are never truly enslaved unless they allow themselves to be. And so it is, a literal choice!

Post by godzilla

Post by Kinpa
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
It really makes no difference, it is simply another word used to refer to the Divine Being....but chances are that it originated from Sarmad which also means "the Eternal."
ALL names and words, number and symbols are mental, and have no ability to be otherwise, and for that reason literally any word can be used so long as the INTENT used therein centers on the Eternal Being of the Absolute which does in fact literally exist. The hardest thing about proving that to one's self is in attaining the direct experience of IT.
To limit the things that come into the Self to being only those that can be obtained from the 5 senses and from the mind, makes itself a wall that blocks any direct experience, but jumping over it and "out of the box" makes achieving it far easier to accomplish.
Free yourself and do not allow yourself to be trapped by the same mental chains that so many others allow to hold them in.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
And so it goes.......

Paul Twitchell copied verbatim from multiple authors and credited names other than the persons he copied / plagiarized from. This is deception plain and simple. Something you have yet to explain, but only deny. Iow, this shows the creation of pseudo man-made history and religion. None of your immature mental gymnastics and lies can ever totally distract, censor, or cover up these facts.

There are no gymnastics...your mind simply holds you down to the same level it has always been limited to...your life is a pseudo-manmade lie...so what is new? Nothing...no growth and no nothing...life ISN'T for you.....no one is covering up any facts anywhere...you just are unable to see any facts anywhere....you are a very little man, and I use that term VERY loosely....enjoy your lack of truth and lack of life....you deserve it...

[wernertrp]

I'm searching/researching on the origin/source of the name "Sugmad" used in
the Eck writings. I know Paul said it was an ancient Chinese name for
God...at other places I've read that it's Persian.
I've done extensive and productive Inet-research on "Hu"...but I'm wondering
if anyone can spare me some re-invention of the wheel...what have you found?
Where does "Sugmad" come from? For example, is it borrowed from the Sufi's?
[I think not. But I did find alot of HU there, for example]
Appreciate any links or guidance....thanx!
Blessings,
_g

Sugmad
Suck Mad


Am Anfang stand das große Saugen
nach der Geburt ihr könnt es glauben
wuchs ich heran zu voller Größe
und wilden lauten Kampfgetöse
erschuf ein Kosmos mich.

Ich wirke ein auf alle Teile
die damals flogen aus dem Nichts,
sie fliegen weiter, immer weiter
bis jedes Teil vergangen ist.

Ich kann sie nicht mehr seh'n noch sammeln
ich glaub' sie sind jetzt winzig klein,
sie lassen sich nicht mehr verbinden
und treiben tief ins Nichts hinein.

So steht der Allerhalter Vater
vor einer Schöpfung fein und klein,
denn jedes seiner Teile teilt sich
in die Unendlichkeit hinein.



Es ist so schön Eckist zu sein.

Es ist so schön Eckist zu sein
Drum finden wir uns jährlich ein
Diesmal ist's im Teutschen Land
Statt Harold ist der $kel$ky dran.

Wir erzählen uns Geschichten
Ob Wahrheit oder pure Dichtung
Der Beifall folgt uns ganz Gewiss
Denn wir sehen Peters Gebiss

Vier Tage harren wir hier aus
Keiner verlässt den Saal noch Haus
Wir summen brummen laut das Hu
Die Nachbarn machen die Fenster zu

So mancher kommt zum Höhepunkt
Bei uns da gibt es keinen Stunk
Alle sind mit Freud' dabei
Ein Eckist bleibt dem Eck ganz treu.

[m***@sbcglobal.net]

I'm searching/researching on the origin/source of the name "Sugmad" used in
the Eck writings. I know Paul said it was an ancient Chinese name for
God...at other places I've read that it's Persian.
I've done extensive and productive Inet-research on "Hu"...but I'm wondering
if anyone can spare me some re-invention of the wheel...what have you found?
Where does "Sugmad" come from? For example, is it borrowed from the Sufi's?
[I think not. But I did find alot of HU there, for example]
Appreciate any links or guidance....thanx!
Blessings,
_g

hullo MHN here,Eckist 46 years. in reading Paul's book, " The Far Country, I find early in Chapter 1 he says simply that SUGMAD is the name of God in the Far Country.. "Take this brother may it serve you well"

[Etznab]

Post by m***@sbcglobal.net

I'm searching/researching on the origin/source of the name "Sugmad" used in
the Eck writings. I know Paul said it was an ancient Chinese name for
God...at other places I've read that it's Persian.
I've done extensive and productive Inet-research on "Hu"...but I'm wondering
if anyone can spare me some re-invention of the wheel...what have you found?
Where does "Sugmad" come from? For example, is it borrowed from the Sufi's?
[I think not. But I did find alot of HU there, for example]
Appreciate any links or guidance....thanx!
Blessings,
_g

hullo MHN here,Eckist 46 years. in reading Paul's book, " The Far Country, I find early in Chapter 1 he says simply that SUGMAD is the name of God in the Far Country.. "Take this brother may it serve you well"

Assuming as true what Paul Twitchell wrote in a book can be problematic because Paul Twitchell evidently copied from several sources and just plain made some things up. This is what I have found, at least.

When writing as a Ruhani Satsang Initiate under Kirpal Singh, Paul Twitchell did NOT use the word Sugmad. When he rewrote that article for Eckankar, however, the word Sugmad appears.

Examples:

1956 - Ananai-Kyo quotes:

"[...] The name we give to this Deity, in Ruhani Satsang, is SAT NAM. [... .]"

"[...] This is what we love at this stage of our development. Call it God, Reality or Radha Soami. Anything for the sake of identification. [... .]"

1968 - I.M.S.I.A.F. quotes:

"[...] The name we give to this deity in Eckankar is the Sugmad. [... .]" [Sugmad in italics]

"[...] This is what we love at this stage of our development. Call it God, reality, or the Sugmad - anything for the sake of identification. [... .]" [Sugmad in italics]

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.religion.eckankar/AQw2u6632Kc/spt_9RmPpRgJ

The writer [MHN] spoke about Paul Twitchell's book The Far Country. This is evidently a book with the most copied / plagiarized material. Example, Ekankar changed to Eckankar, etc.

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.religion.eckankar/q-ZMPeLApug/sZWDK5twAAAJ

So not sure how reliable is everything Paul Twitchell wrote. Iow, if he copied pseudo history and / or something that wasn't really true then the facts remain untrue whether he credits an Eck Master or some other name besides the author who wrote it. What I mean to say is that fiction can get copied and republished a number of times. Changing the source does not necessarily make fiction any more true, except perhaps in the imaginations of some readers who interpret a fiction as literally true. People not only copy false information, but they also sometimes create false information like science fiction writers do.

[Etznab]

Post by Etznab

Post by m***@sbcglobal.net

I'm searching/researching on the origin/source of the name "Sugmad" used in
the Eck writings. I know Paul said it was an ancient Chinese name for
God...at other places I've read that it's Persian.
I've done extensive and productive Inet-research on "Hu"...but I'm wondering
if anyone can spare me some re-invention of the wheel...what have you found?
Where does "Sugmad" come from? For example, is it borrowed from the Sufi's?
[I think not. But I did find alot of HU there, for example]
Appreciate any links or guidance....thanx!
Blessings,
_g

hullo MHN here,Eckist 46 years. in reading Paul's book, " The Far Country, I find early in Chapter 1 he says simply that SUGMAD is the name of God in the Far Country.. "Take this brother may it serve you well"

Assuming as true what Paul Twitchell wrote in a book can be problematic because Paul Twitchell evidently copied from several sources and just plain made some things up. This is what I have found, at least.
When writing as a Ruhani Satsang Initiate under Kirpal Singh, Paul Twitchell did NOT use the word Sugmad. When he rewrote that article for Eckankar, however, the word Sugmad appears.
"[...] The name we give to this Deity, in Ruhani Satsang, is SAT NAM. [... .]"
"[...] This is what we love at this stage of our development. Call it God, Reality or Radha Soami. Anything for the sake of identification. [... .]"
"[...] The name we give to this deity in Eckankar is the Sugmad. [... .]" [Sugmad in italics]
"[...] This is what we love at this stage of our development. Call it God, reality, or the Sugmad - anything for the sake of identification. [... .]" [Sugmad in italics]
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.religion.eckankar/AQw2u6632Kc/spt_9RmPpRgJ
The writer [MHN] spoke about Paul Twitchell's book The Far Country. This is evidently a book with the most copied / plagiarized material. Example, Ekankar changed to Eckankar, etc.
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.religion.eckankar/q-ZMPeLApug/sZWDK5twAAAJ
So not sure how reliable is everything Paul Twitchell wrote. Iow, if he copied pseudo history and / or something that wasn't really true then the facts remain untrue whether he credits an Eck Master or some other name besides the author who wrote it. What I mean to say is that fiction can get copied and republished a number of times. Changing the source does not necessarily make fiction any more true, except perhaps in the imaginations of some readers who interpret a fiction as literally true. People not only copy false information, but they also sometimes create false information like science fiction writers do.

Btw, the credit goes to Sean and Artemis for finding that old article by Paul that he wrote as a Ruhani Satsang Initiate. I'd say that was one of the best finds that I ever saw. It not only confirms Paul Twitchell as a Ruhani Satsang Initiate (at the time), but it showed how he recycled (or rewrote) material for Eckankar.

[Etznab]

Post by Etznab

Post by Etznab

Post by m***@sbcglobal.net

I'm searching/researching on the origin/source of the name "Sugmad" used in
the Eck writings. I know Paul said it was an ancient Chinese name for
God...at other places I've read that it's Persian.
I've done extensive and productive Inet-research on "Hu"...but I'm wondering
if anyone can spare me some re-invention of the wheel...what have you found?
Where does "Sugmad" come from? For example, is it borrowed from the Sufi's?
[I think not. But I did find alot of HU there, for example]
Appreciate any links or guidance....thanx!
Blessings,
_g

hullo MHN here,Eckist 46 years. in reading Paul's book, " The Far Country, I find early in Chapter 1 he says simply that SUGMAD is the name of God in the Far Country.. "Take this brother may it serve you well"

Assuming as true what Paul Twitchell wrote in a book can be problematic because Paul Twitchell evidently copied from several sources and just plain made some things up. This is what I have found, at least.
When writing as a Ruhani Satsang Initiate under Kirpal Singh, Paul Twitchell did NOT use the word Sugmad. When he rewrote that article for Eckankar, however, the word Sugmad appears.
"[...] The name we give to this Deity, in Ruhani Satsang, is SAT NAM. [... .]"
"[...] This is what we love at this stage of our development. Call it God, Reality or Radha Soami. Anything for the sake of identification. [... .]"
"[...] The name we give to this deity in Eckankar is the Sugmad. [... .]" [Sugmad in italics]
"[...] This is what we love at this stage of our development. Call it God, reality, or the Sugmad - anything for the sake of identification. [... .]" [Sugmad in italics]
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.religion.eckankar/AQw2u6632Kc/spt_9RmPpRgJ
The writer [MHN] spoke about Paul Twitchell's book The Far Country. This is evidently a book with the most copied / plagiarized material. Example, Ekankar changed to Eckankar, etc.
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.religion.eckankar/q-ZMPeLApug/sZWDK5twAAAJ
So not sure how reliable is everything Paul Twitchell wrote. Iow, if he copied pseudo history and / or something that wasn't really true then the facts remain untrue whether he credits an Eck Master or some other name besides the author who wrote it. What I mean to say is that fiction can get copied and republished a number of times. Changing the source does not necessarily make fiction any more true, except perhaps in the imaginations of some readers who interpret a fiction as literally true. People not only copy false information, but they also sometimes create false information like science fiction writers do.

Btw, the credit goes to Sean and Artemis for finding that old article by Paul that he wrote as a Ruhani Satsang Initiate. I'd say that was one of the best finds that I ever saw. It not only confirms Paul Twitchell as a Ruhani Satsang Initiate (at the time), but it showed how he recycled (or rewrote) material for Eckankar.

More reference links:

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.religion.eckankar/eYNRXPjJvJQ/iYNeietiBgAJ

The Ananai article was written in the 1950s while Paul Twitchell was a member of Ruhani Satsang, and an initiate under Kirpal Singh. The article not only appeared "outfitted for Eckankar" in the 1968 Brad Steiger book In My Soul I Am Free, but - like with a number of Paul's other articles - was evidently rewritten as if having come from Rebazar Tarzs.

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.religion.eckankar/gaFFxCUhQqc/__OIwRdyBgAJ

[m***@sbcglobal.net]

I'm searching/researching on the origin/source of the name "Sugmad" used in
the Eck writings. I know Paul said it was an ancient Chinese name for
God...at other places I've read that it's Persian.
I've done extensive and productive Inet-research on "Hu"...but I'm wondering
if anyone can spare me some re-invention of the wheel...what have you found?
Where does "Sugmad" come from? For example, is it borrowed from the Sufi's?
[I think not. But I did find alot of HU there, for example]
Appreciate any links or guidance....thanx!
Blessings,
_g

Hiya/SUGMAD is the name for God in the Far Country, From paulji's book Chapter One, The Far Country/ Eck member since 1971

[m***@sbcglobal.net]

I'm searching/researching on the origin/source of the name "Sugmad" used in
the Eck writings. I know Paul said it was an ancient Chinese name for
God...at other places I've read that it's Persian.
I've done extensive and productive Inet-research on "Hu"...but I'm wondering
if anyone can spare me some re-invention of the wheel...what have you found?
Where does "Sugmad" come from? For example, is it borrowed from the Sufi's?
[I think not. But I did find alot of HU there, for example]
Appreciate any links or guidance....thanx!
Blessings,
_g

[j***@gmail.com]

The word Suglad is an abbreviation of four words Su GA MA Da(Di)with it's original in root sounds That represents the manifested Worlds which,when experienced in our lives will allow us to transcend to the Source of our Beingness

[Henosis Sage]

Post by j***@gmail.com
The word Suglad is an abbreviation of four words Su GA MA Da(Di)with it's original in root sounds That represents the manifested Worlds which,when experienced in our lives will allow us to transcend to the Source of our Beingness

Is it really?

Curious about the basis for this comment. If some kind of 'inner guidance/insight' or something else.

also ... The word Suglad ... a typo for Sugmad, yes?

Anyway, there's an obvious issue here.

In Eckankar they say Sugmad is a "name for god", the ulitmate supreme being aka ocean of love and mercy in the "inner worlds/higher planes'.

Here the person is suggesting they think it is "the manifested Worlds" aka the lower worlds below the Soul 5th plane (according to eckankar).

Can't be both, can it?

Would the poster explain this "apparent" contradiction please.

[Henosis Sage]

Post by j***@gmail.com
The word Suglad is an abbreviation of four words Su GA MA Da(Di)with it's original in root sounds That represents the manifested Worlds which,when experienced in our lives will allow us to transcend to the Source of our Beingness

and wondering in which context this is being said as an eckist member, a follower of paul's in some form, or some other linage of thought/belief?

[j***@gmail.com]

I'm searching/researching on the origin/source of the name "Sugmad" used in
the Eck writings. I know Paul said it was an ancient Chinese name for
God...at other places I've read that it's Persian.
I've done extensive and productive Inet-research on "Hu"...but I'm wondering
if anyone can spare me some re-invention of the wheel...what have you found?
Where does "Sugmad" come from? For example, is it borrowed from the Sufi's?
[I think not. But I did find alot of HU there, for example]
Appreciate any links or guidance....thanx!
Blessings,
_g

the name of our God Creator is YHWH but it says in the Bible that in the end times only the chosen ones will know the new name of God so maybe is Sugmad but as far as I've read that name is an ancient chinese name of Him. It also says that their's going to be a religion so brilliant that it will confuse even the chosen ones, but they will be devils clothe in light, i oughta ve careful with this one, is to shiny for my taste jijijjiii.

[Etznab]

Post by j***@gmail.com

I'm searching/researching on the origin/source of the name "Sugmad" used in
the Eck writings. I know Paul said it was an ancient Chinese name for
God...at other places I've read that it's Persian.
I've done extensive and productive Inet-research on "Hu"...but I'm wondering
if anyone can spare me some re-invention of the wheel...what have you found?
Where does "Sugmad" come from? For example, is it borrowed from the Sufi's?
[I think not. But I did find alot of HU there, for example]
Appreciate any links or guidance....thanx!
Blessings,
_g

the name of our God Creator is YHWH but it says in the Bible that in the end times only the chosen ones will know the new name of God so maybe is Sugmad but as far as I've read that name is an ancient chinese name of Him. It also says that their's going to be a religion so brilliant that it will confuse even the chosen ones, but they will be devils clothe in light, i oughta ve careful with this one, is to shiny for my taste jijijjiii.

"... Sugmad ... far as I've read that name is an ancient chinese name of Him."

Where did you read that?

Did you read it in alt.religion.eckankar?

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.religion.eckankar/vqaYcjK_5_s/FZiWHev1JGwJ

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.religion.eckankar/QXTCSkcDw3M/V7TgNq8Rs_AJ

Perhaps you can show us the ancient Chinese or Japanese characters (since they didn't use Roman letters) for this alleged ancient Chinese name for God?

I read this:

"and I suspect that Paul lifted the transliteration 'sugMD' from the Granth, and turned it into SUGMAD."

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.religion.eckankar/0KWr5kY_i40/yDyat4ja_hoJ

In case you were not aware of it, Paul Twitchell didn't always tell the truth. Perhaps because he was a pulp fiction writer like Hubbard and they both made stuff up. Paul evidently went so far as to paraphrase and plagiarize numerous authors and their writings; changing names for the sources and adding his own names instead. So I would make the point that one would be wise not to all that Paul wrote, or said to be literally true. Wise not to take any writer or book literally without checking to verify the source of the information. This is why I ask about the Chinese characters.

[Etznab]

Post by j***@gmail.com

I'm searching/researching on the origin/source of the name "Sugmad" used in
the Eck writings. I know Paul said it was an ancient Chinese name for
God...at other places I've read that it's Persian.
I've done extensive and productive Inet-research on "Hu"...but I'm wondering
if anyone can spare me some re-invention of the wheel...what have you found?
Where does "Sugmad" come from? For example, is it borrowed from the Sufi's?
[I think not. But I did find alot of HU there, for example]
Appreciate any links or guidance....thanx!
Blessings,
_g

the name of our God Creator is YHWH but it says in the Bible that in the end times only the chosen ones will know the new name of God so maybe is Sugmad but as far as I've read that name is an ancient chinese name of Him. It also says that their's going to be a religion so brilliant that it will confuse even the chosen ones, but they will be devils clothe in light, i oughta ve careful with this one, is to shiny for my taste jijijjiii.

In another place I read:

[...]
Experience That Drunkenness. From books and words come fantasy, and sometimes, from fantasy comes UNION. - Rumi

"We Are Three" Translated by Coleman Barks

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.religion.eckankar/0KWr5kY_i40/Pr12IKTA7GsJ

The Sanskrit word for "pleasantly intoxicating" is what?

How about "sukhamada". Look it up here.

http://www.sanskrit-lexicon.uni-koeln.de/cgi-bin/tamil/recherche

or here

http://spokensanskrit.org/index.php?tran_input=sukhamada&direct=se&script=ia&link=yes&mode=3

or here

https://educalingo.com/en/dic-hi/sukhamada

or here

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.religion.eckankar/o4eqR6t0obE/ibp5gSb6x6wJ

We (do you?) know that Paul Twitchell took the word Ekankar and created a word spelled Eckankar instead. Like when he plagiarized the word Ekankar and then changed it to Eckankar.

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.religion.eckankar/z6iWg-areYo/aTnbDqiaAwAJ

Paul even told people the original was Ekankar.

FROM: 1966 Audio Tape by Paul Twitchell: Names, Places and Sounds in the Discourses.

"Eckankar is the Science of Total Awareness because it is dealing with the upper planes, and it can go quite deeply into the life of the upper planes. You'll find that the word of itself is a mispronounced or corrupted spelling that came out of the word E-k-a-n-k-a-r (Paul verbally spells the word out), which means the One Supreme All-inclusiveness of God, or the Co-Worker of God." Exact Quote 2011-11-09 by D.M. a.r.e. post

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.religion.eckankar/5N8hhdDSJ64/5ecSw-HGYKMJ

By the way:

"Paul fictionalized his accounts, because he was an experienced writer and knew
that stories were far more effective than lectures. Paul set himself up as
simply a seeker, in The Tiger's Fang, because he knew from experience that people learn very differently from those who come across as authorities, than
from someone who they can identify with, who is describing a personal experience. He created the dialog with Rebazar Tarzs, in The Far Country,
because this was a much more effective and interesting way of communicating,
than simply pontificating."

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.religion.eckankar/8UcxJy25v7c/hf3BLVT6CQAJ

That book, The Far Country, was where the Ekankar word came from that Paul's paraphrased / plagiarized version changed to "Eckankar".

So it is my guess there is a high probability Paul created the word "Sugmad" from something he had read, or seen. Whether it was an ancient Chinese word remains to be seen.

I followed this thread from its inception and it included another name for God, or HU. And this word appeared in a book that Paul also evidently plagiarized.

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.religion.eckankar/q0PBKMguKac/dZUolaxmN_AJ

More about the sound here:

In most all of his poems, in the original language every other line ends with a HOO, for example:

akkheen surkh te mooheen zardee,
har wallon dil aaheen HOO
Muhaa muhaar khushboi waalaa,
pahuntaa vanj kadaaeen HOO
Ishq mushk na chhuppe raihnde,
zaahir theen uthaaeen HOO
Naam faqeer tinhaan daa Baahoo,
jin laamakaanee jaaeen HOO

The name "Bahu" means, "with God."

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.religion.eckankar/0KWr5kY_i40/Pr12IKTA7GsJ

And near the bottom of this thread one can see how Paul evidently rewrote an early article and added "Eckankar" terms in the process. (It was very common and many examples can be found where Paul changed words, or names as he rewrote his materials.)

Harold Klemp and Eckankar did not tell people about that Ananai-Kyo article in which Paul had written as a Ruhani Satsang initiate. Not to my knowledge. Doug Marman didn't tell us and neither did David Lane or Ford Johnson, not as far as I can tell. Knowledge about it first appeared right here in this newsgroup when people sought to research and verify information for themselves. In my opinion it was an historic find and one of the most revolutionary since parts of it were later written as if coming from the mouth of Rebazar Tarzs!

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.religion.eckankar/eYNRXPjJvJQ/iYNeietiBgAJ

How many "identities" did Paul Twitchell use to sell his books and what has come from people literally believing in Rebazar Tarzs when the same name was attached to texts created not by a Rebazar Tarzs and not by a Paul Twitchell?

[M***@yahoo.com]

I'm searching/researching on the origin/source of the name "Sugmad" used in
the Eck writings. I know Paul said it was an ancient Chinese name for
God...at other places I've read that it's Persian.
I've done extensive and productive Inet-research on "Hu"...but I'm wondering
if anyone can spare me some re-invention of the wheel...what have you found?
Where does "Sugmad" come from? For example, is it borrowed from the Sufi's?
[I think not. But I did find alot of HU there, for example]
Appreciate any links or guidance....thanx!
Blessings,
_g

"Sugmad" is also phonetically similar to the Sufi "Hu-Wah". You can visualize the "Oooo" sound as a focus of the attention within, and the "aaaahhhh" sound as an expansion as you pierce the veil.

[n***@gmail.com]

I'm searching/researching on the origin/source of the name "Sugmad" used in
the Eck writings. I know Paul said it was an ancient Chinese name for
God...at other places I've read that it's Persian.
I've done extensive and productive Inet-research on "Hu"...but I'm wondering
if anyone can spare me some re-invention of the wheel...what have you found?
Where does "Sugmad" come from? For example, is it borrowed from the Sufi's?
[I think not. But I did find alot of HU there, for example]
Appreciate any links or guidance....thanx!
Blessings,
_g

Spirit says: "Sug-" comes from the hindi/urdu word "sukh" meaning happiness. The ending "mad" is an abbreviation of "mand," a common ending in urdu/persian, together forming "bearer of happiness" or a supremely joyful being!
With reference to the book written by Twitchell, "Shariyat ki Sugmad," "shriyat" comes from "shariya" which means laws.

[Tisra Til]

So what is it? Hindi, Urdu, or Persian? Or is it just another Twitchell "invention"? For copyright purposes?

[n***@gmail.com]

I'm searching/researching on the origin/source of the name "Sugmad" used in
the Eck writings. I know Paul said it was an ancient Chinese name for
God...at other places I've read that it's Persian.
I've done extensive and productive Inet-research on "Hu"...but I'm wondering
if anyone can spare me some re-invention of the wheel...what have you found?
Where does "Sugmad" come from? For example, is it borrowed from the Sufi's?
[I think not. But I did find alot of HU there, for example]
Appreciate any links or guidance....thanx!
Blessings,
_g

Possibly this is how Twitchell heard, interpreted or expressed the words he was influenced by, just as "Eckankar" is derived from the Sikh "Ek Onkar." In the scheme of things, he melded together a myriad of languages, cultures and faith traditions, to give it an original twist. Being a published and prolific writer, there may have been copyright considerations as well..

[Henosis Sage]

Post by n***@gmail.com

I'm searching/researching on the origin/source of the name "Sugmad" used in
the Eck writings. I know Paul said it was an ancient Chinese name for
God...at other places I've read that it's Persian.
I've done extensive and productive Inet-research on "Hu"...but I'm wondering
if anyone can spare me some re-invention of the wheel...what have you found?
Where does "Sugmad" come from? For example, is it borrowed from the Sufi's?
[I think not. But I did find alot of HU there, for example]
Appreciate any links or guidance....thanx!
Blessings,
_g

Possibly this is how Twitchell heard, interpreted or expressed the words he was influenced by, just as "Eckankar" is derived from the Sikh "Ek Onkar." In the scheme of things, he melded together a myriad of languages, cultures and faith traditions, to give it an original twist. Being a published and prolific writer, there may have been copyright considerations as well..

RE:.........."Eckankar" is derived from the Sikh "Ek Onkar."

That's not correct - it's a belief, a myth.

It's actually based on the 'hindu & Sikh' orientated word EKANKAR via Kirpal Singh's teachings

KIRPAL SINGH & EKANKAR & EK-ANKAR
https://www.google.com.au/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=site:www.ruhanisatsangusa.org+ek-ankar

the Unmanifest-Manifested (Ekankar),

SPIRITUALITY: A Peep Inside - Ruhani Satsang USA
https://www.ruhanisatsangusa.org/swii/swii-X.htm

All of them, of course, derive their authority from Sat-purush or Sat Naam, or Dayal or Ekankar, the highest Region.

ETC.


Twitchell quote - July 1963 ECKankar (a spelling mistake) plus the Philosophy of the Cliff Hanger in SP-I newspaper

If you want a reference then ask... or see the lnks ijn the various ref'd posts

---
"Ekankar became Oankar whose one vibration spread as the creation."

2014-01 Origins of the word Ekankar and the HU by James Bean

From Sant Mat Radhasoami Blogspot Friday, January 17, 2014
See http://SantMatRadhasoami.Blogspot.com
---


Ik Onkar/Ek Ong Kaar/Ekankar

Ik Onkar is also the first phrase in the Mool Mantra,

The Brahm have no control over the Saints. Saints by initiating persons into the
mystery of the Name of God, take them direct to Sat Purush. Ekankar is different
from the Onkar of the Vedas.

Onkar is the ruler of the three worlds, and his domains extend up to and include
Trikuti, the second spiritual region.

------

Sant Kirpal Singh of Ruhani Satsang goes further:

"The sages and the saints have described God in
innumerable terms, as for instance Swami or Soami,
meaning Lord God; Nirala (peerless or without a
compeer); Anami (the nameless); Har Rai, Agam or Alakh
(the incomprehensible or the ineffable); Ram Rai or Sat
Purush (the eternal Truth or unchangeable permanence);
Ek Ankar (the one life breath or live principle); Puran
Chetan Purush (complete consciousness); Akal (timeless or
the deathless one).

"All these are just attributive or qualitative names -
names signifying one or another of God's attributes. Such
names simply describe any one aspect or facet of God as
appealed foremost to someone's individual liking.

"Thousands of such names appear in holy scriptures: Ram
(all-pervading), Rahim (gracious or merciful), Girdhari
(encompassing), Murari, Allah, Khuda, Wah-i-Guru, and
the like. The Jews call Him Yahweh or Jehovah. All these
names are worthy of our adoration for each one of them
tries to single out some aspect of the Beloved.
I revere each one of Thy names, O God! 2"

http://www.ruhanisatsangusa.org/naam/naam_b1_intro1.htm

and the Ruhani Glossary says:

EK-ANKAR -- The Unmanifest-Manifested, God-in-expression power, the
holy Word, the primal manifestation of Godhead by which and in which all live,
move and have their being and by which all find a way back to Absolute God.
http://www.ruhanisatsangusa.org/gloss.htm

-------


Guru Nanak Ekankar search Ik Oankar

Oankar is a variation of the mystic monosyllable Om (also known as anahata nada,
the unstruck sound) first set forth in the Upanisads as the transcendent object of
profound religious meditation.

Guru Nanak prefixed the numeral one (ik) to it making it Ik Oankar or Ekankar to
stress GOD's oneness. GOD is named and known only through GOD's Own immanent
nature.
http://www.sikhiwiki.org/index.php/God_in_Sikhism


Ikonkaar Satigur Prasaadi
One Oankar, the primal energy, realized through the grace of divine preceptor
http://searchgurbani.com/bhai_gurdas_vaaran/vaar/39/pauri/1


-----

"Twitchell's eckankar does EQUAL Ik Oankaar nor Ek Onkar

Ek Onkar is the symbol that represents the "One Supreme Reality" or "One God."
http://www.sikhiwiki.org/index.php/Ek_Onkar

Twitchell's ECKankar [ with wrong speeling and a new meaning ] means coworker with god.

FROM: 1966 Audio Tape by Paul Twitchell: Names, Places and Sounds in the Discourses.

"Eckankar is the Science of Total Awareness because it is dealing with the upper planes, and it
can go quite deeply into the life of the upper planes. You'll find that the word of itself is a
mispronounced or corrupted spelling that came out of the word E-k-a-n-k-a-r (Paul verbally
spells the word out), which means the One Supreme All-inclusiveness of God, or the Co-Worker
of God." Exact Quote 2011-11-09 by D.M. a.r.e. post


= DM continuing the MYTHS - but at elast correcting the record that eckankar was a TYPO misspelling by twitchell - shows how "unimportant" it really was what he called it.
----


Paul Twitchell brings new techniques to those interested in

bilocation. Taking the old and putting together new ideas he

has codified a system called Eckankar, for those concerned with

out-of-the-body experiences, by making use of their natural

faculties as the modus operandi. Be has developed a complete

new philosophy around this.

1964-12 Ancient Teachings of Bilocation - Eckankar Promotion Course Info San Diego [SCP Text]
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B-M0yAR0UPhPSlZFblViSTdHWEU/view?usp=sharing


Misc refs found here
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.religion.eckankar/5N8hhdDSJ64/5ecSw-HGYKMJ


=======

Ek Oankaar ੴ: Together, these two words, or Gurmukhi symbols, blend into
the one idea: "One Universal Creator God – or - There is only One God."

The other common use of the term "Ek Oankaar" etc., is as a NAME FOR GOD


CONTRARY to THIS the Term ECKANKAR, according to Twitchell, means:

ECKANKAR (ehk'-ahn-kahr)
"One Supreme All-inclusiveness of God";
"Co-worker with God";
The Path of Total Awareness;
Teaching of both the Light and Sound (ECK);
The Ancient Science of Soul Travel;
Eckankar is a codified system concerned with bilocation,
soul travel & out-of-the-body experiences, by making use
of natural faculties as the modus operandi.

In Eckankar, ECK means Spirit, the light and sound.

In Sikhism, EK means one. They are not the same things.

As Paul said, it's semantics. Words do mean different things to different people.

--------------------

However, Julian Johnson notes in his PotM book 1939:

Pg 136 "As intimated above, the content of the Sikh religion is so nearly
identical with that of Sant Mat that there is but little reason to
attempt a separate analysis. Guru Nanak and his spiritual succes-
sors were saints, Satgurus in the true sense of the word, and conse-
quently their teachings coincide with those of all other saints. There
can never be any difference between the teachings in any age of
the world."

iow there are strong ties between traditional Hindu Sant Mat, Kabir, Nanak,
the Sikh Gurus and religion, and Radhasoami which started in 1861 with Shiv
Dayal Singh in the Punjab the home of Sikhism in India.

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.religion.eckankar/5N8hhdDSJ64/mg03b21eEzIJ


SO ... either Eckankar AND ECK MASTERS ARE TOTALLY DIFFERENT or it is warmed over copied version of RADHA SOAMI & KIRPAL'S RUHANI SATSANG and the SIKHISM

[Tisra Til]

This sounds like a description of the panentheistic philosophy. God has an imminent side and transcendent side and pervades both.

Ik Oankar
Oankar is a variation of the mystic monosyllable Om (also known as anahata nada, the unstruck sound) first set forth in the Upanisads as the transcendent object of profound religious meditation.
Guru Nanak prefixed the numeral one (ik) to it making it Ik Oankar or Ekankar to stress GOD's oneness. GOD is named and known only through GOD's Own immanent nature. Almost all names are attributive. The only name which can be said to truly fit GOD's transcendent state is Sati or Satinam (Sanskrit 'satya' meaning TRUTH ), the changeless and timeless Reality. GOD is transcendent and all-pervasive at the same time. Transcendence and immanence are two aspects of the same single Supreme Reality. The Reality is immanent in the entire creation, but the creation as a whole fails to contain GOD fully. As says Guru Tegh Bahadur, Nanak IX, "He has himself spread out His Own maya which He Himself oversees; many different forms He assumes in many colours, yet he stays independent of all" (GG, 537).
God is Karta Purakh, the Creator-Person. He created the spatio-temporal universe not from some pre-existing physical element, but from His own Self. Universe is His own emanation. It is not maya or illusion but is real (sati) because, as say Guru Arjan, “True is He and true is His creation [because] all has emanated from God Himself” (GG 294). But God is not identical with the universe. The latter exists and is contained in Him and not vice versa. God is immanent in the created world, but is not limited by it. “Many times He expands Himself into such worlds but He ever remains the same One Ekankar" (GG, 276). Even at one time "there are hundreds of thousands of skies and nether regions" (GG, 5). Included in Sach Khand, the figurative abode of God, there are countless regions and universes" (GG, 8). Creation is "His sport which He Himself witnesses, and when He rolls up the sport, He is His sole Self again" (GG, 292). He Himself is the Creator, Sustainer and the Destroyer.
What is the Creator's purpose in creating the universe? It is not for man to enquire or judge the purpose of His Creator. To quote Guru Arjan again, "The created cannot have a measure of the Creator; what He wills, O Nanak, happens" (GG, 285). For the Sikhs, the Creation is His pleasure and play "When the showman beat His drum, the whole creation came out to witness the show; and when He puts aside his disguise, He rejoices in His original solitude" (GG, 174, 291, 655, 736).

[fife]

I like the 1964 promotion that Sean included in his post. It's only circumstantial evidence but it supports what I've always believed. That it was always only about bilocation and the attempt to support bilocation with a codified system and philosophy.

[fife]

In other words "In the beginning was bilocation" and everything else, God and what have you, is just an accessory to support it. Like a car loaded down with too much chrome and too many accessories. With everyone wanting all that junk to "mean" something and (inevitably) what they want that junk to mean, their interperetation, their desires, the fulfillment of their own very personal wishes and desires.

[Henosis Sage]

Post by fife
In other words "In the beginning was bilocation" and everything else, God and what have you, is just an accessory to support it. Like a car loaded down with too much chrome and too many accessories. With everyone wanting all that junk to "mean" something and (inevitably) what they want that junk to mean, their interperetation, their desires, the fulfillment of their own very personal wishes and desires.

Yes that's a fair observation imo.

It could be said that for twitchell OOBEs, soul travel, bilocation etc etc solved every puzzle he had about life.

It was what he was "chasing" and this makes sense if he did have an OOBE when sick as a 3 yo ... one day he found some writings about these kinds of things .... and he kept searching for more and more ... and that's how he ended up looking into Kriya yoga, Radhasoami, Scientology etc ... the going out of body, being above body consciousness as Kirpal singh put it was his desire to know about ...

and the rest is fluff. Basically.

It's all compiled anyway so it makes sense - and contradictory ... and of little import.

iow he had no genuine self-generated ideas of his own about values or philosophy or ethics. Jeez, he was basically a misogynist too.

[Etznab]

Post by fife
I like the 1964 promotion that Sean included in his post. It's only circumstantial evidence but it supports what I've always believed. That it was always only about bilocation and the attempt to support bilocation with a codified system and philosophy.

What we've always believed?

[Etznab]

Post by fife
I like the 1964 promotion that Sean included in his post. It's only circumstantial evidence but it supports what I've always believed. That it was always only about bilocation and the attempt to support bilocation with a codified system and philosophy.

Supports what you've always believed?

[fife]

Post by fife
I like the 1964 promotion that Sean included in his post. It's only circumstantial evidence but it supports what I've always believed. That it was always only about bilocation and the attempt to support bilocation with a codified system and philosophy.

Supports what you've always believed?

Yes.
Before everything went pear shaped we all agreed that was it.

[Henosis Sage]

Post by Etznab

Post by fife
I like the 1964 promotion that Sean included in his post. It's only circumstantial evidence but it supports what I've always believed. That it was always only about bilocation and the attempt to support bilocation with a codified system and philosophy.

Supports what you've always believed?
Yes.
Before everything went pear shaped we all agreed that was it.

"we all agreed that was it."

WE?

ALL?

AGREED?

before it went pear-shaped?

aka sweeping statements



OK, so then Eckankar is nothing to do with self-realization ... etc?

The twitch copied that from others to merely fill out his codified philosophy ?

[Henosis Sage]

On Monday, 8 July 2019 17:20:12 UTC+10, Henosis Sage wrote:

I wish to lodge an informal formal complaint about the Thread Titles on this site ... seriously takes a man hours to find anything here lately. (smile)

I knew somewhere we talked about the Mool Mantra Ik Oankar etc and here it is under the SUGMAD thread ... sheesh goodness me Dooreen!

OK, I feel better now. I hope you dudes lift your game !!!! LOL

Now this is very good imho .... beautiful.

Mul Mantra (w_ Lyrics & Meaning) ft Sant Kirpal Singh Ji Maharaj

I found in my downloads folder from back in Feb 2018.

I am in the process of reinventing myself as the Living DJ Music Master - long story :-)

Feel free to send me your super all time favourite songs list via email .....

or should that be the Living DJ Song Master?

Aaaaah damn it's not easy to come up with a title. ROTFLOL

[Henosis Sage]

Post by Henosis Sage
I wish to lodge an informal formal complaint about the Thread Titles on this site ... seriously takes a man hours to find anything here lately. (smile)
I knew somewhere we talked about the Mool Mantra Ik Oankar etc and here it is under the SUGMAD thread ... sheesh goodness me Dooreen!
OK, I feel better now. I hope you dudes lift your game !!!! LOL
Now this is very good imho .... beautiful.
Mul Mantra (w_ Lyrics & Meaning) ft Sant Kirpal Singh Ji Maharaj
http://youtu.be/9WiWZJVRmfo
I found in my downloads folder from back in Feb 2018.
I am in the process of reinventing myself as the Living DJ Music Master - long story :-)
Feel free to send me your super all time favourite songs list via email .....
or should that be the Living DJ Song Master?
Aaaaah damn it's not easy to come up with a title. ROTFLOL

and PS

Can I again emphasise that EK ONG KAAR aka IK OAN KAAR does NOT mean either

Kirpal's / RS / Hindu EKANKAR nor Twitchell's ECKANKAR


three very different words and meanings ..... my god it's hard.

Nirbhao

Nirvair

Gur-Prasad

Jap!

(smile)

[Etznab]

Post by Henosis Sage

Post by Henosis Sage
I wish to lodge an informal formal complaint about the Thread Titles on this site ... seriously takes a man hours to find anything here lately. (smile)
I knew somewhere we talked about the Mool Mantra Ik Oankar etc and here it is under the SUGMAD thread ... sheesh goodness me Dooreen!
OK, I feel better now. I hope you dudes lift your game !!!! LOL
Now this is very good imho .... beautiful.
Mul Mantra (w_ Lyrics & Meaning) ft Sant Kirpal Singh Ji Maharaj
http://youtu.be/9WiWZJVRmfo
I found in my downloads folder from back in Feb 2018.
I am in the process of reinventing myself as the Living DJ Music Master - long story :-)
Feel free to send me your super all time favourite songs list via email .....
or should that be the Living DJ Song Master?
Aaaaah damn it's not easy to come up with a title. ROTFLOL

and PS
Can I again emphasise that EK ONG KAAR aka IK OAN KAAR does NOT mean either
Kirpal's / RS / Hindu EKANKAR nor Twitchell's ECKANKAR
three very different words and meanings ..... my god it's hard.
Nirbhao
Nirvair
Gur-Prasad
Jap!
(smile)

IMO, the problem is with the age of the history. The farther back one goes the greater the tendency for misinformation; because there's been more time and more people to alter it. Nanak? Kabir? Is there an accurate history as to what either actually said / wrote? Because didn't somebody write "for" Nanak?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guru_Arjan

And not everybody even agrees about the history of him.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guru_Arjan#Historical_revisionism,_reconstruction_and_disputes

So this resulted from something gathered up / compiled?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mul_Mantar

And how long after Nanak died? How long after he died were the Adi Granth made?

The descriptions of Nanak at an early age are similar to those of Jesus. And people who wrote about Jesus also lived many years after he reportedly died. Just saying that I think it wise to be skeptical unless one has better proof about what happened so many years ago.

If the world, the Internet and a.r.e. survive for hundreds and thousands of years, and if the texts in a.r.e. remain true and unedited, the there should not be any dispute about why someone would question Eckankar history, dogma, or the masters. People question because what people claim to know is what does not match the actual truth. Clearly there is something going on when a person's writings reflect compiled / copied words from the library to which they credited ancient masters like Rebazar Tarzs in a long unbroken lineage.

The investigations need not stop, IMHO, because what is done now is what will spare people in the future a very daunting task. Because we have technology and hard copy now, maybe there will not be the same problems as with past world history. Still, the actual witnesses ... Where are they? What are they doing? Charlie Wallace? David P.? Gail? Etc., etc.?

It is understandable those who are still members who won't come out. However, I do think there are people with inside knowledge, facts and evidence that can present a huge challenge to the popular history that many take for granted?

Consider this. What does it amount to when a person / group / organization has a problem with history to the extent they choose to discourage people from looking at it? I mean, such as the history of a religion? The masters, the living Eck masters are supposed to clarify and correct history are they not? Yet going back before Paul Twitchell (to Rebazar Tarzs, Sudar Singh, etc.?), What history can they correct if, in fact, they were not / are not even real people? What history can they correct if they amount to words copied from a book? IMO they have to be, or have had to be living and had actual senses to witness things. Things like history!

Years will pass by and the stories will change. And some day the history of the Eckankar religion / corporation could change (look at the spin-off paths and how they already started changing things), but it's not like nobody ever did some work, attempted an investigation and made it public. It was done by people not in Eckankar BUT also done by people who were members of Eckankar and people who are members of Eckankar. This group, a.r.e., is one of a list of groups where people tried to research history in a collaborative group effort. It is one of the sole surviving records that amounts to more than what just David Lane, Doug Marman and Ford Johnson shared. There was something I see as quite the miracle that happened here.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B-M0yAR0UPhPbUJSVUhCck11UG8/view

That is a miracle!!! And IMHO we should all be thankful for a.r.e. and what it helped to inspire.

Including:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B-M0yAR0UPhPSmpNTm5mSkllLU0/view


And Guru Nanak wrote in his book about Eckankar?

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B-M0yAR0UPhPaHJMVDRjMjV4S2s/view

[Henosis Sage]

Post by Etznab

Post by Henosis Sage

Post by Henosis Sage
I wish to lodge an informal formal complaint about the Thread Titles on this site ... seriously takes a man hours to find anything here lately. (smile)
I knew somewhere we talked about the Mool Mantra Ik Oankar etc and here it is under the SUGMAD thread ... sheesh goodness me Dooreen!
OK, I feel better now. I hope you dudes lift your game !!!! LOL
Now this is very good imho .... beautiful.
Mul Mantra (w_ Lyrics & Meaning) ft Sant Kirpal Singh Ji Maharaj
http://youtu.be/9WiWZJVRmfo
I found in my downloads folder from back in Feb 2018.
I am in the process of reinventing myself as the Living DJ Music Master - long story :-)
Feel free to send me your super all time favourite songs list via email .....
or should that be the Living DJ Song Master?
Aaaaah damn it's not easy to come up with a title. ROTFLOL

and PS
Can I again emphasise that EK ONG KAAR aka IK OAN KAAR does NOT mean either
Kirpal's / RS / Hindu EKANKAR nor Twitchell's ECKANKAR
three very different words and meanings ..... my god it's hard.
Nirbhao
Nirvair
Gur-Prasad
Jap!
(smile)

IMO, the problem is with the age of the history. The farther back one goes the greater the tendency for misinformation; because there's been more time and more people to alter it. Nanak? Kabir? Is there an accurate history as to what either actually said / wrote? Because didn't somebody write "for" Nanak?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guru_Arjan
And not everybody even agrees about the history of him.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guru_Arjan#Historical_revisionism,_reconstruction_and_disputes
So this resulted from something gathered up / compiled?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mul_Mantar
And how long after Nanak died? How long after he died were the Adi Granth made?
The descriptions of Nanak at an early age are similar to those of Jesus. And people who wrote about Jesus also lived many years after he reportedly died. Just saying that I think it wise to be skeptical unless one has better proof about what happened so many years ago.
If the world, the Internet and a.r.e. survive for hundreds and thousands of years, and if the texts in a.r.e. remain true and unedited, the there should not be any dispute about why someone would question Eckankar history, dogma, or the masters. People question because what people claim to know is what does not match the actual truth. Clearly there is something going on when a person's writings reflect compiled / copied words from the library to which they credited ancient masters like Rebazar Tarzs in a long unbroken lineage.
The investigations need not stop, IMHO, because what is done now is what will spare people in the future a very daunting task. Because we have technology and hard copy now, maybe there will not be the same problems as with past world history. Still, the actual witnesses ... Where are they? What are they doing? Charlie Wallace? David P.? Gail? Etc., etc.?
It is understandable those who are still members who won't come out. However, I do think there are people with inside knowledge, facts and evidence that can present a huge challenge to the popular history that many take for granted?
Consider this. What does it amount to when a person / group / organization has a problem with history to the extent they choose to discourage people from looking at it? I mean, such as the history of a religion? The masters, the living Eck masters are supposed to clarify and correct history are they not? Yet going back before Paul Twitchell (to Rebazar Tarzs, Sudar Singh, etc.?), What history can they correct if, in fact, they were not / are not even real people? What history can they correct if they amount to words copied from a book? IMO they have to be, or have had to be living and had actual senses to witness things. Things like history!
Years will pass by and the stories will change. And some day the history of the Eckankar religion / corporation could change (look at the spin-off paths and how they already started changing things), but it's not like nobody ever did some work, attempted an investigation and made it public. It was done by people not in Eckankar BUT also done by people who were members of Eckankar and people who are members of Eckankar. This group, a.r.e., is one of a list of groups where people tried to research history in a collaborative group effort. It is one of the sole surviving records that amounts to more than what just David Lane, Doug Marman and Ford Johnson shared. There was something I see as quite the miracle that happened here.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B-M0yAR0UPhPbUJSVUhCck11UG8/view
That is a miracle!!! And IMHO we should all be thankful for a.r.e. and what it helped to inspire.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B-M0yAR0UPhPSmpNTm5mSkllLU0/view
And Guru Nanak wrote in his book about Eckankar?
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B-M0yAR0UPhPaHJMVDRjMjV4S2s/view

Aaah yes, it hasn't been a total waste of time. This is is very useful legacy for us to leave behind. And al those who have also contributed here on a.r.e. and elsewhere who have done their little bit, unheard of unheralded and unacknowledged. Which is just fine and probably the best way for it to BE.

[fife]

Henosis Sage wrote:

Nirbhao

Nirvair

Gur-Prasad

Jap!

😀 That would be...
Without fear
Without hate
By favor of the Guru
Chant!

For all us ignorant types. The statement of intentionality ("sacred four") of Sikhism. With this in common with a hundred other statements of intentionality of a hundred other paths... all are four words or statements (different words, different statements for different paths) but all stating that path's intentionality in a nutshell.

[Henosis Sage]

Post by Henosis Sage
Nirbhao
Nirvair
Gur-Prasad
Jap!
😀 That would be...
Without fear
Without hate
By favor of the Guru
Chant!
For all us ignorant types. The statement of intentionality ("sacred four") of Sikhism. With this in common with a hundred other statements of intentionality of a hundred other paths... all are four words or statements (different words, different statements for different paths) but all stating that path's intentionality in a nutshell.

Cheers.

btw did you ever look into Eka-Sarana Hari-Nāma Dharma, 1500s from Assam?
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B-M0yAR0UPhPczM0azhXWEdMNUk

and
Madhavadeva : Reformer Non-pareil

In the history of every religious movement, it is observed that as soon as the master-mind of the
founder is removed, the new path degenerates into unseemly disputes and schisms and is not able to
preserve itself unsullied by newer currents of thought that, more often than not, run counter to its
original principles.
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B-M0yAR0UPhPcEE5b0J6cWJkM3M

Very big on Rama

ram ram ram

I found it quite fascinating .. Hindu Sanatana Dharma lineage but a little different.

[fife]

Post by Henosis Sage

Post by Henosis Sage
Nirbhao
Nirvair
Gur-Prasad
Jap!
😀 That would be...
Without fear
Without hate
By favor of the Guru
Chant!
For all us ignorant types. The statement of intentionality ("sacred four") of Sikhism. With this in common with a hundred other statements of intentionality of a hundred other paths... all are four words or statements (different words, different statements for different paths) but all stating that path's intentionality in a nutshell.

Cheers.
btw did you ever look into Eka-Sarana Hari-Nāma Dharma, 1500s from Assam?
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B-M0yAR0UPhPczM0azhXWEdMNUk
and
Madhavadeva : Reformer Non-pareil
In the history of every religious movement, it is observed that as soon as the master-mind of the
founder is removed, the new path degenerates into unseemly disputes and schisms and is not able to
preserve itself unsullied by newer currents of thought that, more often than not, run counter to its
original principles.
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B-M0yAR0UPhPcEE5b0J6cWJkM3M
Very big on Rama
ram ram ram
I found it quite fascinating .. Hindu Sanatana Dharma lineage but a little different.

Hi. No I hadn't come across this before. It is interesting. I like the quote from the Mahabarata in the first link. "I tell you this, the secret of the Brahman; there is nothing higher than man." Ha ha ha. That says it all, doesn't it? The rest is all opinion, inspiration, jealousy, belief.

[wernertrp]

Post by fife

Post by Henosis Sage

Post by Henosis Sage
Nirbhao
Nirvair
Gur-Prasad
Jap!
😀 That would be...
Without fear
Without hate
By favor of the Guru
Chant!
For all us ignorant types. The statement of intentionality ("sacred four") of Sikhism. With this in common with a hundred other statements of intentionality of a hundred other paths... all are four words or statements (different words, different statements for different paths) but all stating that path's intentionality in a nutshell.

Cheers.
btw did you ever look into Eka-Sarana Hari-Nāma Dharma, 1500s from Assam?
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B-M0yAR0UPhPczM0azhXWEdMNUk
and
Madhavadeva : Reformer Non-pareil
In the history of every religious movement, it is observed that as soon as the master-mind of the
founder is removed, the new path degenerates into unseemly disputes and schisms and is not able to
preserve itself unsullied by newer currents of thought that, more often than not, run counter to its
original principles.
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B-M0yAR0UPhPcEE5b0J6cWJkM3M
Very big on Rama
ram ram ram
I found it quite fascinating .. Hindu Sanatana Dharma lineage but a little different.

Hi. No I hadn't come across this before. It is interesting. I like the quote from the Mahabarata in the first link. "I tell you this, the secret of the Brahman; there is nothing higher than man." Ha ha ha. That says it all, doesn't it? The rest is all opinion, inspiration, jealousy, belief.

"I tell you this, the secret of the Brahman; there is nothing higher than man."


Is there something higher than man ?
please use this ladder:

"man"
man
demiurg
kosmisches individuum
Trogoautoegokrat
soleil absolut

The difference between "man" and man is to be studied in a Gurdieff group.

[Henosis Sage]

Post by Henosis Sage
Nirbhao
Nirvair
Gur-Prasad
Jap!
😀 That would be...
Without fear
Without hate
By favor of the Guru
Chant!
For all us ignorant types. The statement of intentionality ("sacred four") of Sikhism. With this in common with a hundred other statements of intentionality of a hundred other paths... all are four words or statements (different words, different statements for different paths) but all stating that path's intentionality in a nutshell.

I got more :-)

Don't underestimate the GREEKS!

The Four Horsemen from Aphrodite's Child's 666 LP. 666 was recorded during 1970 / 71, and
released in 1972. Video footage of Demis Roussos, lead singer and bass guitarist with
Aphrodite's Child, taken in 1971 Demis Roussos & Vangelis Papathanasiou in the same band. You
can't make this shit up.
The Four Horsemen - Aphrodite's Child (1972)
2,434,252 views

I'm going a bit nuts on music lately .... don't mind me.

[wernertrp]

Post by Henosis Sage

Post by Henosis Sage
Nirbhao
Nirvair
Gur-Prasad
Jap!
😀 That would be...
Without fear
Without hate
By favor of the Guru
Chant!
For all us ignorant types. The statement of intentionality ("sacred four") of Sikhism. With this in common with a hundred other statements of intentionality of a hundred other paths... all are four words or statements (different words, different statements for different paths) but all stating that path's intentionality in a nutshell.

I got more :-)
Don't underestimate the GREEKS!
The Four Horsemen from Aphrodite's Child's 666 LP. 666 was recorded during 1970 / 71, and
released in 1972. Video footage of Demis Roussos, lead singer and bass guitarist with
Aphrodite's Child, taken in 1971 Demis Roussos & Vangelis Papathanasiou in the same band. You
can't make this shit up.
The Four Horsemen - Aphrodite's Child (1972)
2,434,252 views
http://youtu.be/3KCbqhJt16k
I'm going a bit nuts on music lately .... don't mind me.

Don't underestimate the GREEKS!





The shortest shortcut into the greeks religion:

There is no heaven for man.
There is heaven only for the gods.
The underworld "hades" is for the dead man.
How do you escape the hades ?
Orpheus und Eurydike

[Henosis Sage]

Post by n***@gmail.com

I'm searching/researching on the origin/source of the name "Sugmad" used in
the Eck writings. I know Paul said it was an ancient Chinese name for
God...at other places I've read that it's Persian.
I've done extensive and productive Inet-research on "Hu"...but I'm wondering
if anyone can spare me some re-invention of the wheel...what have you found?
Where does "Sugmad" come from? For example, is it borrowed from the Sufi's?
[I think not. But I did find alot of HU there, for example]
Appreciate any links or guidance....thanx!
Blessings,
_g

Possibly this is how Twitchell heard, interpreted or expressed the words he was influenced by, just as "Eckankar" is derived from the Sikh "Ek Onkar." In the scheme of things, he melded together a myriad of languages, cultures and faith traditions, to give it an original twist. Being a published and prolific writer, there may have been copyright considerations as well..

RE..............Being a published and prolific writer, there may have been copyright considerations as well..

It's clear and imho beyond any doubt that Paul Twichell had ZERO consideration or CARED about "copyright status" of the material he copied verbatim (page after page after page) or that parts he edited slightly by changing the leaders/writers/gurus names and a few words here and there into "eckankar lingo".

[Etznab]

I like this definition best.


EK-ANKAR - The Unmanifest-Manifested, God-in-expression power, the
holy Word, the primal manifestation of Godhead by which and in which all live,
move and have their being and by which all find a way back to Absolute God.

http://www.ruhanisatsangusa.org/gloss.htm

[fife]

T.T.
The truth is that no one knows anything about the word "SUGMAD". It's all speculation. The only person who could say for sure has been dead for 48 years. And even if he were alive (given his track record) I don't know that he could be trusted to be forthright and truthful about it. I assumed Sanskrit roots so that's what my analysis is based on. But again, that's based on my assumption. There's really nothing definitive that anyone can rely on and there never will be.

[n***@gmail.com]

I'm searching/researching on the origin/source of the name "Sugmad" used in
the Eck writings. I know Paul said it was an ancient Chinese name for
God...at other places I've read that it's Persian.
I've done extensive and productive Inet-research on "Hu"...but I'm wondering
if anyone can spare me some re-invention of the wheel...what have you found?
Where does "Sugmad" come from? For example, is it borrowed from the Sufi's?
[I think not. But I did find alot of HU there, for example]
Appreciate any links or guidance....thanx!
Blessings,
_g

To further clarify, the etymological basis of many of the obviously non-English favored words and terms Twitchell took from other sources do not correspond with their meaning, pronunciation and function in the Eckankar religion. Agreed... in this respect, Eckankar does not mean Ek/Ik Onkar, though it is clearly borrowed from the Gurmukhi and appears mispronounced when compared with the original. However, this phonological difference must have been intentional on the part of Twitchell, as it would make sense to do so, since he had a totally different application in mind. True to form, the unique language of his religion was based on his life experiences.

[fife]

ninas...
They don't even mean the same thing all across the Punjab in the various faith-based practices there. So what do you think their purpose is in Eckankar? A smoke screen? Or to further reduce someone's intellectual capacity to see through Eckankar for what it is?

[wernertrp]

Post by fife
ninas...
They don't even mean the same thing all across the Punjab in the various faith-based practices there. So what do you think their purpose is in Eckankar? A smoke screen? Or to further reduce someone's intellectual capacity to see through Eckankar for what it is?

ob Twitchell mein Gedicht über Suck-Mad gefallen hätte ?


Sugmad
Suck Mad


Am Anfang stand das große Saugen
nach der Geburt ihr könnt es glauben
wuchs ich heran zu voller Größe
und wilden lauten Kampfgetöse
erschuf ein Kosmos mich.

Ich wirke ein auf alle Teile
die damals flogen aus dem Nichts,
sie fliegen weiter, immer weiter
bis jedes Teil vergangen ist.

Ich kann sie nicht mehr seh'n noch sammeln
ich glaub' sie sind jetzt winzig klein,
sie lassen sich nicht mehr verbinden
und treiben tief ins Nichts hinein.

So steht der Allerhalter Vater
vor einer Schöpfung fein und klein,
denn jedes seiner Teile teilt sich
in die Unendlichkeit hinein.

[Henosis Sage]

Post by n***@gmail.com

I'm searching/researching on the origin/source of the name "Sugmad" used in
the Eck writings. I know Paul said it was an ancient Chinese name for
God...at other places I've read that it's Persian.
I've done extensive and productive Inet-research on "Hu"...but I'm wondering
if anyone can spare me some re-invention of the wheel...what have you found?
Where does "Sugmad" come from? For example, is it borrowed from the Sufi's?
[I think not. But I did find alot of HU there, for example]
Appreciate any links or guidance....thanx!
Blessings,
_g

To further clarify, the etymological basis of many of the obviously non-English favored words and terms Twitchell took from other sources do not correspond with their meaning, pronunciation and function in the Eckankar religion. Agreed... in this respect, Eckankar does not mean Ek/Ik Onkar, though it is clearly borrowed from the Gurmukhi and appears mispronounced when compared with the original.

RE.........."However, this phonological difference must have been intentional on the part of Twitchell, as it would make sense to do so, since he had a totally different application in mind."

It makes no sense to do so. Create a word that has the application desired.
Leave the sanskrit and the Sikhs alone.



RE:........."True to form, the unique language of his religion was based on his life experiences."

In some ways that is definitely true ... but in others it makes no sense at all. It's a contradiction in terms.

It does not fit with the life he led, nor the obvious 90% of his teachings based on texts produced by others.

All he had to do was WRITE about his Life Experiences and explain his "inner journeys" and write out what Sudar Singh and Rebazar Tarzs et al actually said to him ... instead of filing their mouths with other peoples religious texts and fiction novels.

Paul Twitchell was and still is his own biggest problem.

[n***@gmail.com]

I'm searching/researching on the origin/source of the name "Sugmad" used in
the Eck writings. I know Paul said it was an ancient Chinese name for
God...at other places I've read that it's Persian.
I've done extensive and productive Inet-research on "Hu"...but I'm wondering
if anyone can spare me some re-invention of the wheel...what have you found?
Where does "Sugmad" come from? For example, is it borrowed from the Sufi's?
[I think not. But I did find alot of HU there, for example]
Appreciate any links or guidance....thanx!
Blessings,
_g

It is what it is, all you erudite people. We need to keep separating the wheat from the chaff (ie pulp fiction).

[fife]

ninas...
Hi.
😊 Hmmm.
Surely not "it is what it is". Is the object not to challenge that assumption if you doubt it or if it appears to be illegitimate to you?

[n***@gmail.com]

I'm searching/researching on the origin/source of the name "Sugmad" used in
the Eck writings. I know Paul said it was an ancient Chinese name for
God...at other places I've read that it's Persian.
I've done extensive and productive Inet-research on "Hu"...but I'm wondering
if anyone can spare me some re-invention of the wheel...what have you found?
Where does "Sugmad" come from? For example, is it borrowed from the Sufi's?
[I think not. But I did find alot of HU there, for example]
Appreciate any links or guidance....thanx!
Blessings,
_g

fife: yes, in the process of challenging, you "separate the wheat from the chaff" (quoted in my next sentence).

[fife]

[Etznab]

😊 Yes, indeed.

I had some thoughts.

What is to stop anybody from making up whatever fictions, lies, propaganda they so choose and then selling it to people en masse?

And if the person be a charismatic preacher/guru-like individual claiming to be a mouthpiece for God, etc?

If not the public. If not the congregations then who?

Would you let crazy people run loose in a shopping mall where they could affect the well-being of many, many people?

So who is going to protect people from the myth makers, the charlatans and the plagiarists? Not to mention the unhinged whose fictions cause others to also become unhinged?

I think the Eckankar membership are not mindless robots, but people who should know the difference between right and wrong. Especially when seeing it in black and white. Example (Watch for the names Jesus and Rebazar Tarzs.):

"[...] When the great Buddha was a poor hungry beggar in pursuit of his spiritual objectives, his true nobility stood out far more than it did when he was in the midst of his father's royal splendors. When Jesus, who might have commanded any army — so great was his mental energy — walked the dusty streets, tired and hungry in order that he might carry the bread of life to the multitudes, his greatness eclipsed all the splendors of Rome. [... .]"

https://archive.org/stream/ThePathOfTheMasters/ThePathOfTheMasters_djvu.txt

"[...] When the great Buddha was a poor hungry beggar in pursuit of his spiritual objectives, his true nobility stood out far more than it did when he was in the midst of his father's royal splendors. When Jesus, who might have commanded any army — so great was his mental energy — walked the dusty streets, tired and hungry in order that he might carry the bread of life to the multitudes, his greatness eclipsed all the splendors of Rome. [....]"

Based on: The Path Of The Masters - THE GREAT WORK OF THE MASTERS, p.
432, 2nd paragraph.

http://www.archive.org/stream/ThePathOfTheMasters/ThePathOfTheMasters_djvu.txt

"[...] When Buddha was a poor, hungry beggar in pursuit of his spiritual objectives, his true nobility stood out far more than it did when he was in the midst of his father's royal splendors. When Rebazar Tarzs might have commanded any army, so great was his mental energy, walked the dusty streets when in his youth, tired and hungry, in order that he might carry the spiritual message to the multitudes, his greatness eclipsed all the splendors of this world. [....]"

Based on: Letters to Gail, Volume 1, by Paul Twitchell, 5th Printing-1983, p. 117, 2nd paragraph.

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.religion.eckankar/K_KHjXD6I28/kkJmfFZwAAAJ

How did Jesus (or how many other names) turn into Rebazar Tarzs?

[fife]

I understand your frustration. There's no opportunity to present the entire mountain of circumstantial evidence to the entire membership of Eckankar. But be careful. The Nanny State that makes decisions for people, decides what they need, and what's good for them, is not better than the Deep State you want to undermine.
They're both evil.

[Henosis Sage]

Post by Etznab

😊 Yes, indeed.

I had some thoughts.
What is to stop anybody from making up whatever fictions, lies, propaganda they so choose and then selling it to people en masse?
And if the person be a charismatic preacher/guru-like individual claiming to be a mouthpiece for God, etc?
If not the public. If not the congregations then who?
Would you let crazy people run loose in a shopping mall where they could affect the well-being of many, many people?
So who is going to protect people from the myth makers, the charlatans and the plagiarists? Not to mention the unhinged whose fictions cause others to also become unhinged?
"[...] When the great Buddha was a poor hungry beggar in pursuit of his spiritual objectives, his true nobility stood out far more than it did when he was in the midst of his father's royal splendors. When Jesus, who might have commanded any army — so great was his mental energy — walked the dusty streets, tired and hungry in order that he might carry the bread of life to the multitudes, his greatness eclipsed all the splendors of Rome. [... .]"
https://archive.org/stream/ThePathOfTheMasters/ThePathOfTheMasters_djvu.txt
"[...] When the great Buddha was a poor hungry beggar in pursuit of his spiritual objectives, his true nobility stood out far more than it did when he was in the midst of his father's royal splendors. When Jesus, who might have commanded any army — so great was his mental energy — walked the dusty streets, tired and hungry in order that he might carry the bread of life to the multitudes, his greatness eclipsed all the splendors of Rome. [....]"
Based on: The Path Of The Masters - THE GREAT WORK OF THE MASTERS, p.
432, 2nd paragraph.
http://www.archive.org/stream/ThePathOfTheMasters/ThePathOfTheMasters_djvu.txt
"[...] When Buddha was a poor, hungry beggar in pursuit of his spiritual objectives, his true nobility stood out far more than it did when he was in the midst of his father's royal splendors. When Rebazar Tarzs might have commanded any army, so great was his mental energy, walked the dusty streets when in his youth, tired and hungry, in order that he might carry the spiritual message to the multitudes, his greatness eclipsed all the splendors of this world. [....]"
Based on: Letters to Gail, Volume 1, by Paul Twitchell, 5th Printing-1983, p. 117, 2nd paragraph.
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.religion.eckankar/K_KHjXD6I28/kkJmfFZwAAAJ
How did Jesus (or how many other names) turn into Rebazar Tarzs?

RE:............"So who is going to protect people from the myth makers, the charlatans and the plagiarists?"

Essentially no one. Occasionally there's a team effort, but one can't put a wise head on dumb shoulders.

RE......"And if the person be a charismatic preacher/guru-like individual claiming to be a mouthpiece for God, etc? "

This seems to be par for the course for most religions.

Joseph smith. L Ron Hubbard. Paul Twichell.

ST Paul who started Christianity (if the history is correct)

Hazur Maharaj who started Radhsoami and all the other splits that came after.

Whoever split the orthodox from the catholics, and Luther the trigger who split protestants off.

Mohammed who was supposedly taught by Angel Gabriel and taken on soul travel journeys to places like Jerusalem.

Christian science by Mary baker Eddy, it's a long long list.

Not all religions are the same, their histories are different too, in different times, where does one begin to try to "protect" people and from what?

Not sure there is an answer to be had.

[fife]

Yes, there's always someone who decides that their truth trumps someone else's choice and when they want to go ahead and save them (from themselves?) without asking that's always the first step into the pitfall.

[fife]

But Etznab, what's really going on here isn't a matter of policy/choice and changing the rules. It's about not putting your attention on heartlessness and indifference and dwelling on them so that sucks you down into a state of unhappiness, upset, and depression.

[Henosis Sage]

Post by fife
Yes, there's always someone who decides that their truth trumps someone else's choice and when they want to go ahead and save them (from themselves?) without asking that's always the first step into the pitfall.

Yes, the other aspect that comes to mind is that in the 50s and 60s in the west there was a huge shift away from traditional religions to the obscure, new and oriental. It wasn't only "eckankar" that arose in that space.

as per Wanda Sue parrots' reflections, I think she said it well.

I hear today a lot about the lack of "freddom" and social controls in places like Iran .. to me the things I ahve seen there it's no different than growing up in the 60s in the west. Where "fundamentalist religions" controlled alomost all aspects of accepted society rules.

It was not common and rarely acceptable that a teen in the 60s' early 70s had a girlfriend/boyfriend when still at school. Holding hands was not allowed at schol dances in my day. Dress expectations were imposed despite the new mini-skirt for 20 somethings, The bealtes hung out with Indian Gurus, long hair was anti-social, divorce was totally frowned upon in my country then. Gays were excluded from society and bashed often even by the Police.

Is iran or china that bad relative to living in the 'liberal' west the last 50-70 years?

Sport could not be played on a Sunday, hotels were not allowed to open either.
For me and those of my teenage era being a Catholic, Anglican or Presbyterian etc was like living in a police state.

The Hutterites (eg Sam Hofer days growing up as one) , the 7th day Adventists, the Jehovah witnesses, the mormons etc are no different today than they were in the 1960s imho.

anyway whatever. Eckankar has issues because WE know about them, we've lived them and we've looked more deeply at it than most have. So what? Eckankar is no different than all the others --- swings and roundabouts they all have their issues.

[Henosis Sage]

Post by Henosis Sage

Post by fife
Yes, there's always someone who decides that their truth trumps someone else's choice and when they want to go ahead and save them (from themselves?) without asking that's always the first step into the pitfall.

Yes, the other aspect that comes to mind is that in the 50s and 60s in the west there was a huge shift away from traditional religions to the obscure, new and oriental. It wasn't only "eckankar" that arose in that space.
as per Wanda Sue parrots' reflections, I think she said it well.
I hear today a lot about the lack of "freddom" and social controls in places like Iran .. to me the things I ahve seen there it's no different than growing up in the 60s in the west. Where "fundamentalist religions" controlled alomost all aspects of accepted society rules.
It was not common and rarely acceptable that a teen in the 60s' early 70s had a girlfriend/boyfriend when still at school. Holding hands was not allowed at schol dances in my day. Dress expectations were imposed despite the new mini-skirt for 20 somethings, The bealtes hung out with Indian Gurus, long hair was anti-social, divorce was totally frowned upon in my country then. Gays were excluded from society and bashed often even by the Police.
Is iran or china that bad relative to living in the 'liberal' west the last 50-70 years?
Sport could not be played on a Sunday, hotels were not allowed to open either.
For me and those of my teenage era being a Catholic, Anglican or Presbyterian etc was like living in a police state.
The Hutterites (eg Sam Hofer days growing up as one) , the 7th day Adventists, the Jehovah witnesses, the mormons etc are no different today than they were in the 1960s imho.
anyway whatever. Eckankar has issues because WE know about them, we've lived them and we've looked more deeply at it than most have. So what? Eckankar is no different than all the others --- swings and roundabouts they all have their issues.

another comparison?

I cannot for the life of me see that teaching the kiddies all the historical BS and brainwashing social expectations and norms laid upon those born as Jews (especially the extreme fundamentalists) being any different than what Scientology lays on their kiddies. Or Mormons, or Catholics, or baptists or Muslims or Hindus or Sikhs or Eckists.

[fife]

Yes. It's all true about social and emotional change and intellectual, social, emotional, and personal freedom. But I'm thinking we haven't engaged the way paranoia drives schizophrenia and schizophrenia drives paranoia in the same way we've faced depression and mania (bipolar disorder) over the last four or five decades. These are really the four horsemen of our disordered life. Schizophrenia, paranoia, depression, and mania. I don't mean the irresistible forms that require medical management (drugs) and talking therapy. I mean the common or garden variety that people think they can use, and get away with using, to get what they want. Think in terms of threats, intimidation, coersion. They're not just part of every drama they are every drama, what's "dramatic".

[fife]

What I'm thinking of (imagewise) is the double dorje of Tibetan Buddhism. But forget that. Try this. A vertical line with a horizontal line crossing it at its center. We know about the vertical line and we watch out for it. High and low, mania and depression. But we're paying no attention to the horizontal line - schizophrenia and paranoia - that fills the void.

Its a power symbol. A symbol of power. Power. People still think they can use power to get what they want. Think they can manipulate schizophrenia, mania, paranoia, and depression to get what they want. And they just screw themselves up, and screw everyone else up by doing that. By using power, and by thinking that they're smart enough to do that and get away with it. That anyone can do that, manipulate the four horsemen of disorder without harming themselves, others, or tainting whatever the project, agenda, or undertaking is.

[fife]

Ms. Parrot was right. In the 40s, 50s, and 60s the talk was about "freedom". But that quickly morphed into "empowerment". Yeah. Power. Like that's not the problem in the first place, that everyone bitches about nonstop.

[fife]

Ms. Parrot was right. In the 40s, 50s, and 60s the talk was of "freedom" but that quickly morphed into "empowerment" in the 70s didn't it? And everything has been screwed up ever since. But maybe this is the only way anyone is ever going to look the love affair with mental, emotional, and sensational disorder in the face and see through it for what it really is. Who knows?

[fife]

"Aren't we all... " Yeah. That's right there with "We're all one... " Our excuses for complacency. And complacency has killed more people than all the bullets and bombs ever manufactured. Because it keeps them "right there", "in place" to be the perfect targets, the perfect victims for all the bullets, bombs, politics, policies, guilt, prejudice, and every other weapon that can be aimed and fired at them.

[fife]

And, where is complacency? Why, it's right there. At the dead center of the crosshairs, so to speak. Right there, where manic depression and paranoid schizophrenia intersect. Think about it. No? Don't want to? Hell, neither do I but there it is.

[fife]

Were in LOVE with complacency. But look at what we put up with to have it. Look at what we put up with to enjoy it.

[Etznab]

So go out and find some more plagiarisms, paraphrase and copied text. Let us all know who the eck masters really were. Their real names, history and religion.

[fife]

Post by Etznab
So go out and find some more plagiarisms, paraphrase and copied text. Let us all know who the eck masters really were. Their real names, history and religion.

Ah, yes. Well, I have no intention of doing the former and as to the latter, there are no ECK masters because there is no ECK. It's a load of codswallop. There are no ECK masters so there is no history and no history means no lineage. Just because Paul Twitchell stole someone's material doesn't make them an ECK master. Just because Paul Twitchell stole people's names and altered those names, doesn't make the original people ECK masters. And just because Paul Twitchell named some historical figures (Socrates, Pythagoras, Plato) doesn't make them ECK masters either.

Sorry to disappoint, Etznab, but there's nothing there.

The plagiarism? Yes. If you want to continue with your forensic examination of Paul Twitchell's material, his life, and his person. But the other? There's nothing to it. No history. Just the lie that there is a history.

[Etznab]

Post by fife

Post by Etznab
So go out and find some more plagiarisms, paraphrase and copied text. Let us all know who the eck masters really were. Their real names, history and religion.

Ah, yes. Well, I have no intention of doing the former and as to the latter, there are no ECK masters because there is no ECK. It's a load of codswallop. There are no ECK masters so there is no history and no history means no lineage. Just because Paul Twitchell stole someone's material doesn't make them an ECK master. Just because Paul Twitchell stole people's names and altered those names, doesn't make the original people ECK masters. And just because Paul Twitchell named some historical figures (Socrates, Pythagoras, Plato) doesn't make them ECK masters either.
Sorry to disappoint, Etznab, but there's nothing there.
The plagiarism? Yes. If you want to continue with your forensic examination of Paul Twitchell's material, his life, and his person. But the other? There's nothing to it. No history. Just the lie that there is a history.

There is a history. It can be divided into at least three parts.

1.) History based on true events.
2.) Pseudo man(and woman)-made history.
3.) History that Paul Twitchell completely made up.

The thing is, Paul Twitchell (and by extension Eckankar Inc., Eckankar members, etc.) may have copied and disseminated pseudo history. Furthermore complicating things by crediting the information to fictional non-real characters. And one of the ways to uncomplicate matters is to pair up the text with the author. With the true (having written and published the book / speech) author! IMHO that can help a lot because it prevents things from becoming more complicated and feeding the propaganda machines.

[fife]

Yes it's very complicated. Like a ball of string wound around and around itself. But when you unwind all the string, all you have is a handful of string. There's nothing at the center.

[Henosis Sage]

Post by fife
Yes it's very complicated. Like a ball of string wound around and around itself. But when you unwind all the string, all you have is a handful of string. There's nothing at the center.

AND on top of what you said previously....."The plagiarism? Yes. If you want to continue with your forensic examination of Paul Twitchell's material, his life, and his person. But the other? There's nothing to it. No history. Just the lie that there is a history."


I laughed out loud at that. Good one. I think you've hit the nail on the head there. :-)

[Henosis Sage]

Post by Etznab

Post by fife

Post by Etznab
So go out and find some more plagiarisms, paraphrase and copied text. Let us all know who the eck masters really were. Their real names, history and religion.

Ah, yes. Well, I have no intention of doing the former and as to the latter, there are no ECK masters because there is no ECK. It's a load of codswallop. There are no ECK masters so there is no history and no history means no lineage. Just because Paul Twitchell stole someone's material doesn't make them an ECK master. Just because Paul Twitchell stole people's names and altered those names, doesn't make the original people ECK masters. And just because Paul Twitchell named some historical figures (Socrates, Pythagoras, Plato) doesn't make them ECK masters either.
Sorry to disappoint, Etznab, but there's nothing there.
The plagiarism? Yes. If you want to continue with your forensic examination of Paul Twitchell's material, his life, and his person. But the other? There's nothing to it. No history. Just the lie that there is a history.

There is a history. It can be divided into at least three parts.
1.) History based on true events.
2.) Pseudo man(and woman)-made history.
3.) History that Paul Twitchell completely made up.
The thing is, Paul Twitchell (and by extension Eckankar Inc., Eckankar members, etc.) may have copied and disseminated pseudo history. Furthermore complicating things by crediting the information to fictional non-real characters. And one of the ways to uncomplicate matters is to pair up the text with the author. With the true (having written and published the book / speech) author! IMHO that can help a lot because it prevents things from becoming more complicated and feeding the propaganda machines.

Yes, and that's true too. Although it;s going to take each individual to rise above the 'propaganda' and disinfo, and false histories, to see it for what it is. And come clean to themselves about the faulty 'product' too.

I surely cannot ever see 'eckankar as an org' coming clean; nor a Marman or anyone else. eg when I look back and see what Ford Johnson attempted to achieve, well it helped many but at the end of the day he never landed a single punch - did not change a single thing inside eckankar itself.

c'est la vie. Who is going to step and claim Joseph Smith was a rank liar about his golden plates of text and being spoken to by god? :-)

[Henosis Sage]

Post by fife
And, where is complacency? Why, it's right there. At the dead center of the crosshairs, so to speak. Right there, where manic depression and paranoid schizophrenia intersect. Think about it. No? Don't want to? Hell, neither do I but there it is.

Well well, you sure go hard on this psychological stuff, that was a good series of hard hitting comments there. You put things "crosshairs" in a way I haven't heard before - and it kind of makes sense (but am niot really sure why)


such as this bit...."Its a power symbol. A symbol of power. Power. People still think they can use power to get what they want. Think they can manipulate schizophrenia, mania, paranoia, and depression to get what they want. And they just screw themselves up, and screw everyone else up by doing that. By using power, and by thinking that they're smart enough to do that and get away with it. That anyone can do that, manipulate the four horsemen of disorder without harming themselves, others, or tainting whatever the project, agenda, or undertaking is. "

Gee, ok then. four horsemen of disorder? thinking I wonder if that four horsemen of the apocalypse was an allegory speaking about just that kind of thing?

or could narcissism be at the dead centre of the crosshairs?

To me along the way I have figured myself that psychology has much to do with religions and spiritual paths and the like.... it's what kicks in people;s beliefs and some people are much better at manipulating others to THINK a particular way than most people.

Unfortunately it;s equally possible for some individual psychologists and psychiatrists and medicos to be as manipulative as your nearest new age guru. Thankfully Cognitive science and linguistics and ethics studies and history insights might be able to succeed long term (or combine in some positive way for the masses) and bring truth to power anyway.

It would be god for people to know that Jung had his "own" inner spiritual guide like a RT character ... in his life. and if people were taught Joseph Campbell at the nedof primary school before all the hormones kicked in.

I don;t know the answer. I really do not. Except the answer that suits me ... = relax and enjoy yourself best you can. Do not worry, it's all a game and then you die and get a do over somewhere sometime. cheers

[fife]

I hesitate to even attempt a comment. What can I say but your instincts are very good? That you're right on target and haven't missed a thing.

[fife]

😊 Except the "do over" part. There will be things we won't have to do after this. Think of all the cognitive science, linguistics, ethics, and history you've learned. That will all be working for you from now on, predispose the next situation (whatever it is), and give you an advantage starting out you didn't have this time. 😊

[fife]

Etznab wrote:
1.) History based on true events.
2.) Pseudo man(and woman)-made history.
3.) History that Paul Twitchell completely made up.

Do you by any chance see those as the opportunity to broaden your

1.) intellectual
2.) emotional
3.) sensational

skills? Because we're all here to develop something that's going to help us now and help us even more later on.

[Etznab]

Four horsemen could be the four seasons. That is my guess.

[Etznab]

https://www.wakingtimes.com/2013/12/16/astrology-four-horsemen-revelations/

[Henosis Sage]

Post by Etznab
https://www.wakingtimes.com/2013/12/16/astrology-four-horsemen-revelations/

Gosh, never heard that one before either.

maybe Fife's 4 horseman is somewhat connected ot the idea of the 4 parts of the mind too? Manas chitta etc.

(not that I see checking into the eck texts as being helpful, but that just me these days. )


hey btw, did you know the scientists say Mercury had an orbit close to Mars, but was hit by another body which knocked it into the current orbit and led to it;s whole crust peeling off in the process.

in regard "astrology" and being where it is now.

[Henosis Sage]

Post by fife
I hesitate to even attempt a comment. What can I say but your instincts are very good? That you're right on target and haven't missed a thing.

OK thanks for that. So rare for me lately I needed a lay down for a few days before replying. :-)

and fwiw I don;t recall anything about 4 grand divisions as planes in eckankar.
I thought there was like only one ... ala the 5th spiritual worlds vs physical-psycho worlds.

See how much I paid attention ... someone should have kept be down a few grades .. oh, that's right they DID!!! lol

[n***@gmail.com]

I'm searching/researching on the origin/source of the name "Sugmad" used in
the Eck writings. I know Paul said it was an ancient Chinese name for
God...at other places I've read that it's Persian.
I've done extensive and productive Inet-research on "Hu"...but I'm wondering
if anyone can spare me some re-invention of the wheel...what have you found?
Where does "Sugmad" come from? For example, is it borrowed from the Sufi's?
[I think not. But I did find alot of HU there, for example]
Appreciate any links or guidance....thanx!
Blessings,
_g

The Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad Book One by Paul Twitchell describes "Sugmad" as having "two parts." The following quote (page 14) supports the theory that "Sug-" in the name Sugmad is derived from the Hindi-Punjabi word 'sukh,' meaning happiness or joy.
"The outside is called Saguna, which is to say that It may be considered as eternal reality, consciousness and joy. This is the part that man knows and remembers after experiencing the God-Realization state. Because of Its joy in reaching this state, Soul is capable of enjoying Itself in play." Twitchell goes on to state that God is also known by the image of the divine bird "Hamsa" - where again the original Hindi word is "Hans(a)" meaning swan. So this is a frequently occurring case in point and pattern in his writing.

[fife]

[fife]

[Henosis Sage]

Post by n***@gmail.com

I'm searching/researching on the origin/source of the name "Sugmad" used in
the Eck writings. I know Paul said it was an ancient Chinese name for
God...at other places I've read that it's Persian.
I've done extensive and productive Inet-research on "Hu"...but I'm wondering
if anyone can spare me some re-invention of the wheel...what have you found?
Where does "Sugmad" come from? For example, is it borrowed from the Sufi's?
[I think not. But I did find alot of HU there, for example]
Appreciate any links or guidance....thanx!
Blessings,
_g

The Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad Book One by Paul Twitchell describes "Sugmad" as having "two parts." The following quote (page 14) supports the theory that "Sug-" in the name Sugmad is derived from the Hindi-Punjabi word 'sukh,' meaning happiness or joy.
"The outside is called Saguna, which is to say that It may be considered as eternal reality, consciousness and joy. This is the part that man knows and remembers after experiencing the God-Realization state. Because of Its joy in reaching this state, Soul is capable of enjoying Itself in play." Twitchell goes on to state that God is also known by the image of the divine bird "Hamsa" - where again the original Hindi word is "Hans(a)" meaning swan. So this is a frequently occurring case in point and pattern in his writing.

Well, trying to analyse what Paul was saying, what it meant, and why it was that way, is a lifelong activity that likely would never end and have no answer one could hang their hat on anyway.

What I would really like to know today is, why you are responding to the very same posts every time?