Post by EtznabPost by EtznabPost by EtznabHow about a reality check experiment? Imagine someone looking at history of Rebazar Tarzs for the first time. Or, imagine a child doing a book report for school. Let's see ... Where to look?
https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q=Rebazar+Tarzs
Images for Rebazar Tarzs
ECK Master Rebazar Tarzs - Eckankar
An Appearance by the Tibetan ECK Master Rebazar Tarzs
Rebazar Tarzs - The Amazing Truth About Paul Twitchell ...
Who?, or What? is Rebazar Tarzs Really? - Google Groups
Rebazar Tarzs | Facebook
Atom.org - Rebazar Tarzs
Etc., etc, etc.
How about a researcher wanting to explore the beginnings of Rebazar Tarzs? Like before so many Eckankar spin-off groups started to use his name and picture? Or started to copy, paraphrase and plagiarize copied, paraphrased and plagiarized texts?
Would it be normal to investigate the words that Rebazar Tarzs allegedly said? His dictations to Paul Twitchell, perhaps? An investigator might go there?
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None would because the fact of the plagiarizing is already well known. Any investigator worth his salt would know that that could not possibly be an angle that could or would bear fruit. That question is a very simple one, but you seem to be unable to frame it the way YOU want it to speak to others....we shall see I guess...
Post by EtznabPost by EtznabPost by EtznabUmm ... Hey! But people already have researched and investigated Rebazar Tarzs and what he allegedly dictated / said. Some were members of Eckankar who, after the viewing of previously less known information - including plagiarism - then decided to leave the organization. Some members may have chosen to leave for other reasons. James Davis, etc.
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/alt.religion.eckankar/pvbEg1H9P1Y
Some members may have followed a splinter group, but one in which many of the "core" teachings remained; including pictures for some of the same Eckankar masters, etc.
Some members probably looked at the controversy and remained; continuing to research, investigate and explore further. I can't say they were / are many, but it's a fair assumption IMO.
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Why do you misrepresent the truth when you have absolutely NO figures for any of these groups? You cannot say that those who stayed were many, but neither can you say that they were few, you simply have absolutely no idea how many they actually were/are, just as you have no realistic figures as to now many left due to David Lane's book or the things brought forth from it. You and sean have postulated many times that the majority left, however there is nothing to support that conclusion other than that it is the more comfortable one for the both of you, because it happens to agree with your own views. Here ou are being outright dishonest by implying that ANY of your assumptions have any degree of accuracy or value to anyone but yourself.
Post by EtznabPost by EtznabPost by EtznabTo continue the experiment, try putting all of the members and previous members in the same room (including those from Eckankar splinter groups) and let the researcher begin asking questions. Would all the members agree and all members share the same opinions? I hardly think so.
So where does the investigator go to discover the truth say ... about Rebazar Tarzs, for example? Maybe they go to their imagination, or invite Rebazar Tarzs for a visit? However, How reliable the results? How to test whether the inner visions are not simply imaginations?
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And likewise, how to determine that YOUR conclusions are not simply the same thing? You cannot ask for one without also including the other, otherwise you are once again using a double standard, and any reader is going to find that biased and useless by its very nature...
Post by EtznabPost by EtznabPost by EtznabSo here is one avenue to explore. Maybe go to a discussion group like a.r.e., one that is still active where others are not, and take advantage of years of archived files all in one place. Also take advantage of discussions with other real people (including members of Eckankar) claiming to know things about the beginnings and history and when this whole thing began? It would probably not be a complete investigation, but it would be a start. While here, one could also use the experiment to look at the ways certain members of Eckankar, former and current, go about discussing their differences. Even to the extreme of one member TELLING another member they are not. Iow, a "my way or the highway" attitude.
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Why do you lie about this group claiming that it has NOT died out dues to there being no other activity than for yourself and mainly one other? Then let us also not forget to include YOU with the "My way or the highway" attitude, as you have just demonstrated it in your words above, and that being the case, by what right do you accuse and judge any others simply because you do not like or agree with what they say? As for one member versus another, you would be better off proving that before making anymore claims about it, because it is nothing more than talk, and for that reason, if for no other, I can certainly state that you are no longer a member if I want to, and while you will never have to like that or agree with it, you cannot stop it from being said without showing proof. A simple concept really, but still one you continually avoid and complain about, even to the extent of wishing that you were protected from my saying these things by a law!
You could see all kinds of accusations back and forth, name calling, personal attacks and lies, etc. ... things like "bring it", "my lawyer" and "your lawyer" ... "see you in court", etc., etc.
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Yes, all things that you have also done, as well as your friend, as well as threatening to do things that you simply never intended to do, like contacting Eckankar....have you written them yet? Why not? You made the threat several times, as did sean, so why have neither of you taken the step of doing that? Scared of something?
Post by EtznabPost by EtznabPost by EtznabDon't forget to include in your files books like The Making of a Spiritual Movement, Dialogue in the Age of Criticism, The Whole Truth, Confessions of a God Seeker, etc. along with your own personal research. And don't forget to keep updated with the latest new information about Rebazar Tarzs.
https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q=Rebazar+Tarzs
Note the three blue heads in upper right corner. (Paul, Darwin, Paul)
http://www.dhunami.org/home.html
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The books you mention are widely available, so I can't claim that everyone who reads this hasn't read them, however I find it strange that you refuse to believe that ECKists have these things hidden from them...why is that? I also notice that you have never shown even the least bit of evidence to support that, other than degrading Harold Klemp's talks on the subject of Paul Twitchell....as always you are welcomed to having your own opinion, but why then IF you are so in search of truth, do you constantly deny the things that disagree with your views? That can never remove those things from existence, and if you ever want to be considered an actual and unbiased researcher of truth, you will need to begin including even the uncomfortable things that don't support your point of view, that is just the way truth is, regardless of one's spiritual or religious experiences, beliefs, or point of view...
Post by EtznabPost by Etznab***
Quoting ...
WHERE IS THE MAHANTA?
After Paul Twitchell translated,there was no one ready to receive the ROD OF POWER,not until Duane Heppner,who received the ROD OF POWER for the first time,on august 3rd 2001. [... .]
http://theuniversalfiles.blogspot.com/2012/09/where-is-mahanta.html
This person received the ROD OF POWER from whom? Could it be ... Rebazar Tarzs?
"The unaware people of the earth are very fortunate to have the assistance of Rebazar Tarzs and The Real Universal Guides whom they do not really know as of yet, but that is where I come in as THE NUMAN."
http://theuniversalfiles.blogspot.com/2012/09/where-is-mahanta.html
Another site that claimed affiliation with Rebazar Tarzs? Maybe they have changed some things.
There is also the Darwin Gross Trust, etc.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darwin_Gross
Notice the picture of Rebazar Tarzs
http://www.atom.org/
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Many different entities now claim affiliation with Rebazar Tarzs. Maybe they even use recycled plagiarized texts? How are people able to do this? How can they all be speaking for Rebazar Tarzs?
And why hasn't Eckankar been able to stop them? Because Rebazar Tarzs has not come forth to prove them wrong?
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Why would he?? And how is it that you bring this up as if it is supposed to serve as a sort of evidence? Can you prove that he is unable to show up IF he wanted to? What if he actually considers it a useless expectation of YOURS, and cares not in the least how many groups claim to have his guidance? Why do you not mention the many groups that also speak of being guided by Rumi and Shams-i Tabrizi? You always refer to Rebazar Tarzs, but would you recognize or admit to yourself, if ANY Master came to you, whether in the physical or otherwise? You have made a great number of comments that display that you do not believe such a thing possible unless a person has a mental illness, and yet you expect anyone to believe that you are also an actual card carrying ECKist? The two do not coincide, nor do they coexist. You can claim this, but why don't you instead introduce me to ANY other "ECKists" who have the same opinions as you have? Or are you too scared to? If the actual truth is REALLY as important to you as you claim it to be, then how can such contradictory things coexist in you? And are there any others that agree with you about them?
Post by EtznabThis whole thread is suggesting that people are probably at liberty to speak for Rebazar Tarzs because the latter is not going to step into a court of law and prove them wrong.
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A purposeful assumption on your part, and one meant to mislead, but let's go in another direction with it...if Rebazar Tarzs showed up in court, or at an ECK seminar, are you saying that you wouldn't immediately claim him to be a fake? An imposter? How would you prove that IF that is the action you would take? If it isn't the thing you'd think, believe, or the action you'd take, please correct me as to what WOULD be your actual thoughts and/or opinions on the matter?
Post by EtznabAlso, if so much of the texts (and reported words of Rebazar Tarzs) actually came not from a Rebazar Tarzs, but from library books and writings of others, then one could ask: What recourse does Eckankar (or any member thereof) have to stop the spread of Rebazar Tarzs memes as if it were a self-replicating virus?
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First I would ask, WHY should Eckankar or any other person attempt to stop said "memes"? Doing so would remove free-will, and the idea of it being a "self-replicating virus" is your own conclusion, so what is it that makes you believe that Eckankar, or anyone else would agree with your assertion? Have you ANY evidence of yours being the correct and accurate one??
Post by EtznabMy point from many years ago has been that only the truth can bring peace to the endless chaos born by religions creating pseudo man-made history & religion then subsequently fighting over who is right and who is wrong.
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Another assumption, and this "fighting" is merely your own opinion, it is not necessarily shared by anyone other than your partner...without evidence you will have a hard time convincing anyone that any of this is viable or worthy of one's time and/or efforts...but do as you will...
Post by EtznabI say that truth doesn't always amount to what people claim, because people can and do embellish the truth. What can be proven about Rebazar Tarzs? Other than the fact this "character" has been used like a "puppet" by many different people and groups. However, is Rebazar Tarzs a real living being? One that could step into a breach and serve as a LIVING Eck Master? I think such questions have been asked repeatedly and will continue to be for good reason.
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Okay then....
Post by EtznabIMHO it is not anti-Eckankar to seek the truth. In fact, I could say it is a very real part of the path as I understand it. Furthermore, I don't think any memeber of a religion should have to accept unproven claims as if they were literally true. And if members seek the truth they should have the protection of of the law against members of religion who publicly state that they are no member.
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That is your opinion...which is fine, but, does anyone else really care? And you will have to include your own unproven claims as being not literally true as well, IF you intend to demand that condition from any group. As for my saying that you are not a current member of Eckankar, you ought to stop crying, there will be no law that will give you what you're asking for, but if you want to try to get one passed, go for it. You claim you are "seeking truth" but I have met others that do not agree with you about that, especially because you insist that you are proving things that ou have as yet been completely unable to prove, so stop crying about the fact that I won't accept your circumstantial "evidence" as proving things it simply cannot prove. Get DIRECT evidence and try again, but until that day, you have nothing but your delusion, like it or lump it, I care not one bit!