Discussion:
Ex-Initiator's Guide to Eckankar Initiations
(too old to reply)
leaf
2005-05-26 19:01:06 UTC
Permalink
When I received the sixth initiation, I had essentially already decided
toleave eckankar. I was still hanging on out of some slight
uncertainty, and also had decided to maintain my membership due to the
fact that my partner still remained loyal to eckankar. A year or two
had passed while I was in this state of serious doubt and skepticism,
when the pink slip for the sixth initiation came. I was surprised to
say the least. Yet I wasn't too surprised. This confirmed what I
already suspected: Initiations are not overseen or approved by a
mahanta or some omniscient being, but by a computer, with the
assistance of initiate reports, and recommendations by the local Resa
and other local high initiates. I remained in eckankar for years after
this, until the day my mate felt as I did, and we both resigned.


Lest there are those in eckankar who don't yet know this, lists are
periodically sent out with names generated by a computer to the state
Resa (regional eck spiritual aid), who confers with local high
initiates/clergy/initiators/eck spiritual aids to either recommend or
not, an initiation (Klemp himself wrote of the computers producing the
initiation lists a while back as I recall). Around the time I left
eckankar, most eckists were automatically placed on the list every four
or five years or so. If for some reason an eckist was denied, they
would usually show up again on the next year's list. Local h.i's in my
area (including myself) would routinely talk over the names on the list
via the telephone, and give their recommendations to the Resa according
to each chela's loyalty and degree of outer service to the org. Those
who were especially "troublesome" could be denied the initiation. The
Resa emphasized loyalty as the most important trait. The results from
the RESA are sent back to Minneapolis HQ where, most likely, assistants
appointed by Harold approve or deny the initiation based on the time
served as a dues paying member, the RESA recommendations, and very
likely, initiate reports. Some, including myself, have observed that
initiate reports (especially those which are positive or are written in
praise of the org) play a role in the initiation approval process.

Despite this, few people were denied an initiation if they were on the
list. Eckankar has a very liberal policy toward initiations. I noticed
that those who followed the disciplines well fared no better or worse
than those who didn't. I noticed people who smoked, drank or never did
their exercises stood just as great a chance of receiving the fifth
initiation as anyone <G>. More than anything, the initiations were
awarded based on time as a member. The rate at which initiations were
received could be accelerated or delayed based on the chelas
relationship with local H.I's and, especially, the state RESA, who has
a great deal of influence in such matters from my experience. And one
thing is clear: Those who do not substantially conform to the
expectations of the group are the ones most likely to be denied an
initiation. Despite this, the H.I.'s or RESA's in different areas may
vary in their tolerance levels, which accounts for the stories heard
about individuals who never received initiations in one local suddenly
begin to receive them after moving to another area. Also, I've
witnessed initiations being approved after three or four H.I's gave
their unsolicited recommendations to Spiritual Services on behalf of
certain chelas who were thought of as exceptionally deserving.

I once had a friend who was extremely devoted to eckankar, who had
lived in a remote area during most of her time as a member, and didn't
realize eckankar's policy that time served as a dues paying member
counted toward initiation. As a result, she didn't receive initiations
for years do to the fact that she kept forgetting to renew her
membership, thinking such things to be of the material worlds! She had
no idea such trivialities mattered to the omniscient mahanta! This
woman had a life membership (at one time you could pay a large one time
fee, $2,000, for a membership for life) but was still required to
notify eckankar of her intent to renew annually, though no additional
fee was required. She didn't think such formalities were all that
important, and as a result, due to a less than exemplary membership
record, received no initiations beyond the second, despite years of
devotion to eckankar. One often may hear eckists parroting that such
outer initiations matter little, yet privately, most eckists seem to
feel very strongly about the initiations they are awarded.

This isn't spoken of very much out in the open in eckankar, but people
such as the woman in the example can become quite disillusioned and
depressed over not keeping up with their peers, feeling left behind,
unwanted, and forgotten by the Mahanta. They see others who are
seemingly less deserving receiving initiations, whereas they, despite
being very devoted to eckankar and the associated disciplines, seem to
fall hopelessly behind. Due to eckankar's policy that one not ever
request initiations, many suffer in silence, sensing justifiably that
something isn't quite right, yet fear to even ask about the possibility
of an error. In many cases, even when they do ask, they face a stony
silence from the org, or are told they are being "tested" spiritually,
when all that is needed is a quick check of the record. This is one of
the way's such a system can inflict undue pain upon its members, and is
one reason I am taking the time to write about this in detail.

Think about the numbers involved in the initiation approval process. If
there are, as claimed, 50,000 members in the org, and each is
considered for an initiation every five years or so, then that would
average 10,000 per year, or 833 per month, or about 40 per day
(excluding weekends), or about one initiation to be approved every 10
to 15 minutes in an average eight hour day. Klemp would have to work
full time on initiations every day for the rest of his life to spend 10
to 15 minutes every five years on the "individual" member. He is said
to check the inner akashic and soul records to make such a choice.
Remember that this would have to be done to merely *consider* a person
for initiation, that is, to give each chela the individual attention
and consideration that is due, whether or not the chela is actually
approved for initiation.

Klemp would have to live out of the body most of his life to accomplish
such a feat. He would have no time for seminars, writing his constant
supply of books, writing his speeches, eating, drinking, sleeping,
going to meetings, running the corporation, etc.
From this I deduce that Klemp has, for the most part, nothing to do
with the initiations, other than, perhaps, performing a perfunctory
blessing of them in the eckankar offices to fool the membership. He
simply doesn't have the time. Remember this key point: It's a fact that
someone would have to act on the physical plane to approve the
initiations and send out pink slips. No matter how you slice it, this
person (or more likely, persons) is not the living eck master.


Thus, the initiations are entirely bogus. They represent nothing more
than organizational status. Observe the behavior of the online clergy.
These are not enlightened beings. They are ordinary people caught up in
the throes of everyday life, like most people are in the rest of the
world.


Food for thought...

Kent
cher
2005-05-26 19:30:58 UTC
Permalink
What a complete load of crap! <chuckle> You sound like a guy who beat
his wife and refused to pay child support talking to friends in a bar
about family court judges! LOL... Sorry kent...but the bias of your
piece is oozing off the screen. You can keep your state of
consciousness... it clearly belongs to you!!!
Post by leaf
When I received the sixth initiation, I had essentially already decided
toleave eckankar. I was still hanging on out of some slight
uncertainty, and also had decided to maintain my membership due to the
fact that my partner still remained loyal to eckankar. A year or two
<snip>
leaf
2005-05-26 20:58:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by leaf
When I received the sixth initiation, I had essentially already decided
toleave eckankar. I was still hanging on out of some slight
uncertainty, and also had decided to maintain my membership due to the
fact that my partner still remained loyal to eckankar. A year or two
had passed while I was in this state of serious doubt and skepticism,
when the pink slip for the sixth initiation came. I was surprised to
say the least. Yet I wasn't too surprised. This confirmed what I
already suspected: Initiations are not overseen or approved by a
mahanta or some omniscient being, but by a computer, with the
assistance of initiate reports, and recommendations by the local Resa
and other local high initiates. I remained in eckankar for years after
this, until the day my mate felt as I did, and we both resigned.
Lest there are those in eckankar who don't yet know this, lists are
periodically sent out with names generated by a computer to the state
Resa (regional eck spiritual aid), who confers with local high
initiates/clergy/initiators/eck spiritual aids to either recommend or
not, an initiation (Klemp himself wrote of the computers producing the
initiation lists a while back as I recall). Around the time I left
eckankar, most eckists were automatically placed on the list every four
or five years or so. If for some reason an eckist was denied, they
would usually show up again on the next year's list. Local h.i's in my
area (including myself) would routinely talk over the names on the list
via the telephone, and give their recommendations to the Resa according
to each chela's loyalty and degree of outer service to the org. Those
who were especially "troublesome" could be denied the initiation. The
Resa emphasized loyalty as the most important trait. The results from
the RESA are sent back to Minneapolis HQ where, most likely, assistants
appointed by Harold approve or deny the initiation based on the time
served as a dues paying member, the RESA recommendations, and very
likely, initiate reports. Some, including myself, have observed that
initiate reports (especially those which are positive or are written in
praise of the org) play a role in the initiation approval process.
Despite this, few people were denied an initiation if they were on the
list. Eckankar has a very liberal policy toward initiations. I noticed
that those who followed the disciplines well fared no better or worse
than those who didn't. I noticed people who smoked, drank or never did
their exercises stood just as great a chance of receiving the fifth
initiation as anyone <G>. More than anything, the initiations were
awarded based on time as a member. The rate at which initiations were
received could be accelerated or delayed based on the chelas
relationship with local H.I's and, especially, the state RESA, who has
a great deal of influence in such matters from my experience. And one
thing is clear: Those who do not substantially conform to the
expectations of the group are the ones most likely to be denied an
initiation. Despite this, the H.I.'s or RESA's in different areas may
vary in their tolerance levels, which accounts for the stories heard
about individuals who never received initiations in one local suddenly
begin to receive them after moving to another area. Also, I've
witnessed initiations being approved after three or four H.I's gave
their unsolicited recommendations to Spiritual Services on behalf of
certain chelas who were thought of as exceptionally deserving.
I once had a friend who was extremely devoted to eckankar, who had
lived in a remote area during most of her time as a member, and didn't
realize eckankar's policy that time served as a dues paying member
counted toward initiation. As a result, she didn't receive initiations
for years do to the fact that she kept forgetting to renew her
membership, thinking such things to be of the material worlds! She had
no idea such trivialities mattered to the omniscient mahanta! This
woman had a life membership (at one time you could pay a large one time
fee, $2,000, for a membership for life) but was still required to
notify eckankar of her intent to renew annually, though no additional
fee was required. She didn't think such formalities were all that
important, and as a result, due to a less than exemplary membership
record, received no initiations beyond the second, despite years of
devotion to eckankar. One often may hear eckists parroting that such
outer initiations matter little, yet privately, most eckists seem to
feel very strongly about the initiations they are awarded.
This isn't spoken of very much out in the open in eckankar, but people
such as the woman in the example can become quite disillusioned and
depressed over not keeping up with their peers, feeling left behind,
unwanted, and forgotten by the Mahanta. They see others who are
seemingly less deserving receiving initiations, whereas they, despite
being very devoted to eckankar and the associated disciplines, seem to
fall hopelessly behind. Due to eckankar's policy that one not ever
request initiations, many suffer in silence, sensing justifiably that
something isn't quite right, yet fear to even ask about the possibility
of an error. In many cases, even when they do ask, they face a stony
silence from the org, or are told they are being "tested" spiritually,
when all that is needed is a quick check of the record. This is one of
the way's such a system can inflict undue pain upon its members, and is
one reason I am taking the time to write about this in detail.
Think about the numbers involved in the initiation approval process. If
there are, as claimed, 50,000 members in the org, and each is
considered for an initiation every five years or so, then that would
average 10,000 per year, or 833 per month, or about 40 per day
(excluding weekends), or about one initiation to be approved every 10
to 15 minutes in an average eight hour day. Klemp would have to work
full time on initiations every day for the rest of his life to spend 10
to 15 minutes every five years on the "individual" member. He is said
to check the inner akashic and soul records to make such a choice.
Remember that this would have to be done to merely *consider* a person
for initiation, that is, to give each chela the individual attention
and consideration that is due, whether or not the chela is actually
approved for initiation.
Klemp would have to live out of the body most of his life to accomplish
such a feat. He would have no time for seminars, writing his constant
supply of books, writing his speeches, eating, drinking, sleeping,
going to meetings, running the corporation, etc.
From this I deduce that Klemp has, for the most part, nothing to do
with the initiations, other than, perhaps, performing a perfunctory
blessing of them in the eckankar offices to fool the membership. He
simply doesn't have the time. Remember this key point: It's a fact that
someone would have to act on the physical plane to approve the
initiations and send out pink slips. No matter how you slice it, this
person (or more likely, persons) is not the living eck master.
Thus, the initiations are entirely bogus. They represent nothing more
than organizational status. Observe the behavior of the online clergy.
These are not enlightened beings. They are ordinary people caught up in
the throes of everyday life, like most people are in the rest of the
world.
Food for thought...
Kent
cher
2005-05-26 21:10:02 UTC
Permalink
What a complete load of crap! <chuckle> You sound like a guy who beat
his wife and refused to pay child support talking to friends in a bar
about family court judges! LOL... Sorry kent...but the bias of your
piece is oozing off the screen. You can keep your state of
consciousness... it clearly belongs to you!!!
Post by leaf
When I received the sixth initiation, I had essentially already decided
toleave eckankar. I was still hanging on out of some slight
uncertainty, and also had decided to maintain my membership due to the
fact that my partner still remained loyal to eckankar. A year or two
<snip>
Mr. Peabody's Buddy
2005-05-27 14:39:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by cher
What a complete load of crap! <chuckle> You sound like a guy who beat
his wife and refused to pay child support talking to friends in a bar
about family court judges! LOL... Sorry kent...but the bias of your
piece is oozing off the screen. You can keep your state of
consciousness... it clearly belongs to you!!!
Isn't it funny and ironic that everytime you or anybody else deals
eekanker a body blow, Cher comes in and gives eekanker a left hook to
the head??!
She's a critic's best friend!

Hey Cher, I got in "on the inner" that your Pink Slip is on the way....

NOT!
Post by cher
Post by leaf
When I received the sixth initiation, I had essentially already decided
toleave eckankar. I was still hanging on out of some slight
uncertainty, and also had decided to maintain my membership due to the
fact that my partner still remained loyal to eckankar. A year or two
<snip>
cher
2005-05-27 15:48:16 UTC
Permalink
So gary, how many burning crosses did you plan this weekend? Hmmm? Is
that hood and robe hot in the desert? <smiling>
Post by Mr. Peabody's Buddy
Post by cher
What a complete load of crap! <chuckle> You sound like a guy who beat
his wife and refused to pay child support talking to friends in a bar
about family court judges! LOL... Sorry kent...but the bias of your
piece is oozing off the screen. You can keep your state of
consciousness... it clearly belongs to you!!!
Isn't it funny and ironic that everytime you or anybody else deals
eekanker a body blow, Cher comes in and gives eekanker a left hook to
the head??!
She's a critic's best friend!
Hey Cher, I got in "on the inner" that your Pink Slip is on the way....
NOT!
Post by cher
Post by leaf
When I received the sixth initiation, I had essentially already decided
toleave eckankar. I was still hanging on out of some slight
uncertainty, and also had decided to maintain my membership due to the
fact that my partner still remained loyal to eckankar. A year or two
<snip>
Mr. Wotan
2005-05-27 01:14:20 UTC
Permalink
Very nice statement, Kent!

the Radha Soamists seem to have it right by granting one "singular"
initiation only when you commit to the master..and none after that.
surmaddream
2005-05-27 06:32:42 UTC
Permalink
I to see the hard love that the children do not see. Thank you much for
sharing, Leaf you are a true brother and are at the heart of the light and
sound of the Saute Surmad, God, Sugmad, whatever. Anything worth saving
needs no defending for what could possibly save it from itself being not
true.

"There is a remarkable incident in connection with Nanak’s visit to Mecca.
At Mecca, Nanak was found sleeping with his feet towards the Kaaba, before
which the Mohammedans prostrated themselves when performing their prayer.
Kazi Rukan-ud-din, who observed this, angrily remarked: "Infidel! How dare
you dishonour God’s place by turning your feet towards Him?" He also
kicked Nanak. Nanak silently replied, "I am tired. Turn my feet in any
direction where the place of God is not". Kazi Rukan-ud-din took hold of
Nanak’s feet angrily and moved them towards the opposite direction. The
inner and outer mosque began to move. The Kazi was struck with the wonder
of Nanak's words. He then recognised the glory of Guru Nanak and the shame
of his words."

*
cher
2005-05-27 13:39:55 UTC
Permalink
LOL.... I can see kent and colleen being comfortable with that! "Hi! I
used to be an H.I. and I want to join your path, so how many initiations
can I trade up for here? One?!!! What???? <chuckle>
Post by Mr. Wotan
Very nice statement, Kent!
the Radha Soamists seem to have it right by granting one "singular"
initiation only when you commit to the master..and none after that.
observer part II
2005-05-27 10:42:55 UTC
Permalink
Just about everything you have written here is true Kent. Others who
have also been higher initiates who were initiators have indicated
similar or the same types of experiences with the initiation process as
you have indicated. Your post is just further corroboration.

I especially liked how you explained the process where disciples beat
themselves up inwardly when they see other people getting initiation
after initiation while they themselves are passed by. It's painful to
experience, it's painful to watch.

But there are some intangibles that might need to be considered as
well.

First off, whether one calls it the "Mahanta" or whether it is because
of the the second initiation where one is connected to the sound
current, there is a protection and guidance that exists for the
disciple in a very direct way that the disciple was not conscious of
very often, prior to this connection. Imho, there is no more important
initiation or connection process than this first connection with the
sound current.

Secondly, those who get initiations based on "recommendations" because
of their popularity or because of who their friends are or because of
who their parents are, or for whatever reason beyond true spiritual
growth, often do not have the spiritual power that their level of
initiation would seem to indicate. This happens quite often, imho,
unfortunately. It's a lesson for all of us not to get too wrapped up in
the social consciousness as concerns the outer initiation statures of
others. One's spiritual practice must be strong and disciplined and
on-going to partake daily of the inner spiritual universes.

Where I disagree with you is with the idea you outline as concerns the
supposedly limited capacities of an omniscient being such as as fully
evolved Soul.

If one is above time and space as Soul, it is possible for that Soul to
check an infinite amount of chelas who are being considered for
initiations. It would not take all day for the Living Master to be in
contemplation making this person unable to attend to any other
responsibilities as you have stated.

As Soul, which is beyond eternity and which is above time and space,
initiation considerations could be done for billions of disciples, if
need be, in what would be mere seconds as we understand time here.

But this begs the question. Why would an Ominescient being need
recommendations from people coming from the human state of
consciousness?

Perhaps in the future only the initial connection with the sound
current will be given like in other light and sound paths. All
initiations thereafter would be given only during one's dreams or in
one's meditations. And hopefully, the practice of accepting
recommendations for initiations will be scrapped once and for all.

Hopefully!
Rich
2005-05-27 12:56:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by observer part II
I especially liked how you explained the process where disciples beat
themselves up inwardly when they see other people getting initiation
after initiation while they themselves are passed by. It's painful to
experience, it's painful to watch.
I agree. No one can change their state of consciousness but themselves,
not us, not Eckankar or even an ECK Master.
Post by observer part II
But there are some intangibles that might need to be considered as
well.
First off, whether one calls it the "Mahanta" or whether it is because
of the the second initiation where one is connected to the sound
current, there is a protection and guidance that exists for the
disciple in a very direct way that the disciple was not conscious of
very often, prior to this connection. Imho, there is no more important
initiation or connection process than this first connection with the
sound current.
Secondly, those who get initiations based on "recommendations" because
of their popularity or because of who their friends are or because of
who their parents are, or for whatever reason beyond true spiritual
growth, often do not have the spiritual power that their level of
initiation would seem to indicate.
I agree. And if that was the only factor, they would not get an
initiation in Eckankar.
Post by observer part II
This happens quite often, imho, unfortunately.
Perhaps, although it has not been my experience. But again
recomendations do not mean they will actually get the initiation.
Post by observer part II
It's a lesson for all of us not to get too wrapped up in
the social consciousness as concerns the outer initiation statures of
others. One's spiritual practice must be strong and disciplined and
on-going to partake daily of the inner spiritual universes.
I agree 100%
Post by observer part II
Where I disagree with you is with the idea you outline as concerns the
supposedly limited capacities of an omniscient being such as as fully
evolved Soul.
If one is above time and space as Soul, it is possible for that Soul to
check an infinite amount of chelas who are being considered for
initiations. It would not take all day for the Living Master to be in
contemplation making this person unable to attend to any other
responsibilities as you have stated.
As Soul, which is beyond eternity and which is above time and space,
initiation considerations could be done for billions of disciples, if
need be, in what would be mere seconds as we understand time here.
But this begs the question. Why would an Ominescient being need
recommendations from people coming from the human state of
consciousness?
Perhaps in the future only the initial connection with the sound
current will be given like in other light and sound paths. All
initiations thereafter would be given only during one's dreams or in
one's meditations. And hopefully, the practice of accepting
recommendations for initiations will be scrapped once and for all.
Initiation status is certainly a challenge for those with an
overinflated ego, or those low self esteem. While having only one
initiation would remove that particular stumbling block, it's a larger
lesson that still must be learned.

I don't believe that Harold Soul travels to look at the personal outer
lives of initiates. While a Soul to Soul observation may show that one
is spiritually developed, that does not signify balance or commitment
outwardly one way or the other. Feedback from the field does.

` o
|
~/|
_/ |\
/ | \
-/ | \
_ /____|___\_
(___________/
Rich~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Sailing the CyberSea~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
observer part II
2005-05-27 14:06:41 UTC
Permalink
Rich Said:

I don't believe that Harold Soul travels to look at the personal outer
lives of initiates.

****>>>>>>>****

There's been a misunderstanding on your part perhaps because of my
so-so writing skills. Sri Harold does not Soul Travel to look at the
personal OUTER lives of disciples. As a Master who has initiated
disciples, via the Soul body he is always with them all the time. He
does not have to Soul Travel over.

However, it is unfortunate that some initiates feel it is their
spiritual service to examine, judge and spy on the personal outer lives
of other initiates and doing so all in the name of the Divine Power.

Rich said:

While a Soul to Soul observation may show that one
is spiritually developed, that does not signify balance or commitment
outwardly one way or the other. Feedback from the field does.

****>>>>****

As Soul, a Living Master does not need "feedback from the field" to
determine commitment, balance or anything else. In the Soul body, the
Mahanta is all powerful, all present and all wise. People making this
"feedback" are not all powerful, all present and all wise. Only a
Master, as Soul, can really know the heart of another.

Depending and relying upon "feedback from the field" creates a
situation that Kent described so well: people not deserving of
initiations getting them for reasons other than spiritual growth. Some
are married or living with or dating the "right" person. Some are very
popular, and or wealthy and or charismatic. Some have parents who are
long time members in good standing. And many, many other reasons having
nothing to do with spiritual growth.

Kent was skeptical for over a year about the teachings but kept up all
outward appearances. Therefore, he received his 6th initiation.
"Feedback from the field" made a mistake, once again. People are
falliable, biased, intolerant. All of us as human beings are to a
greater or lesser extent. We are limited by time and space and
everything else. A Living Master, As Soul has no such limitations.

I wonder how many outer initiations Sri Paul would have received if he
had to participate in this "recommendation" initiation system given his
insatiable and yet commendable need to just be himself and not be part
of what he deemed a very homogenous society. This "recommendation"
system is so heavily controlled by people who in their arrogance think
they are capable and deserving of the right to make judgments about the
commitment to spiritual practice and balance of others.
cher
2005-05-27 15:42:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rich
I don't believe that Harold Soul travels to look at the personal outer
lives of initiates.
****>>>>>>>****
There's been a misunderstanding on your part perhaps because of my
so-so writing skills. Sri Harold does not Soul Travel to look at the
personal OUTER lives of disciples. As a Master who has initiated
disciples, via the Soul body he is always with them all the time. He
does not have to Soul Travel over.
Soul travel over? On my.... <sigh> Actually Sri Harold knows the heart
of his chelas, but how those chela's manage to balance their energies is
not apparent in their heart, only their possiblities and intentions. A
loving heart can become unbalanced.
Post by Rich
However, it is unfortunate that some initiates feel it is their
spiritual service to examine, judge and spy on the personal outer lives
of other initiates and doing so all in the name of the Divine Power.
Well we do have examples such as Kent that this is the intentions of
some. I recall someone named Nathan that was big on this sort of
behavior too. He once stated in a group of ECKists that it was his
mission to make sure I didn't get any more initiations, and I got my
pink slip only a few months later. The test came in my keeping my
balance during his assault. So like it or not... these sorts of people
are "perfect in the moment" where the ECK is concerned. There is an old
saying that the only thing wrong with Eckankar is that it so many
people. <smile>
Post by Rich
While a Soul to Soul observation may show that one
is spiritually developed, that does not signify balance or commitment
outwardly one way or the other. Feedback from the field does.
****>>>>****
As Soul, a Living Master does not need "feedback from the field" to
determine commitment, balance or anything else. In the Soul body, the
Mahanta is all powerful, all present and all wise. People making this
"feedback" are not all powerful, all present and all wise. Only a
Master, as Soul, can really know the heart of another.
No one says that people offering feedback are expected to omnipresent.
That would be you giving them this attribution and it would wrong.
Feedback is only a factor. And I've seen instances where it was
completely ignored and dismissed. We're all here learning together. If
we lean on the Mahanta to do all things for all people, where do we
learn?
Post by Rich
Depending and relying upon "feedback from the field" creates a
situation that Kent described so well: people not deserving of
initiations getting them for reasons other than spiritual growth. Some
are married or living with or dating the "right" person. Some are very
popular, and or wealthy and or charismatic. Some have parents who are
long time members in good standing. And many, many other reasons having
nothing to do with spiritual growth.
Actually that would you again attributing these emotions to these
speculations. In short this is your opinion. You stated that no one can
know the heart of another except the Mahanta.... and frankly just
because I don't like someone personally doesn't mean that my mentalizing
on how they got that pink slip holds any truth. It's just my
shortcomings showing themself. Mind junk. <smile> Feedback is a great
scapegoat for anger and jealousy. <shrug>
Post by Rich
Kent was skeptical for over a year about the teachings but kept up all
outward appearances. Therefore, he received his 6th initiation.
"Feedback from the field" made a mistake, once again. People are
falliable, biased, intolerant. All of us as human beings are to a
greater or lesser extent. We are limited by time and space and
everything else. A Living Master, As Soul has no such limitations.
So now you're telling us that you actually know the heart of kent or his
heart when he was on the path? Oddly enough... doubt doesn't disqualify
one for initiation, but it can point to ones connection with it. Doubt
is a healthy part of the whole. As much as I disagree with kent today,
it would have been my position to see him as Soul working through his
experiences when he was a member. And because this is true in Eckankar,
I've tested it with people who have choosen to leave the path. Guess
what? <smile> Sometimes it takes more than one lifetime to take that
next step. <wink> It's not up to me to attempt to get in the way of
anothers connection with the ECK. I can use discrimination though. And I
can keep in my heart that I am dealing with limitations.
Post by Rich
I wonder how many outer initiations Sri Paul would have received if he
had to participate in this "recommendation" initiation system given his
insatiable and yet commendable need to just be himself and not be part
of what he deemed a very homogenous society. This "recommendation"
system is so heavily controlled by people who in their arrogance think
they are capable and deserving of the right to make judgments about the
commitment to spiritual practice and balance of others.
Wow... do you feel better now?<smile> The faults of others are a
measure of our own humility in reflection. <wink> Paul did receive his
initiations just like the rest of us, all within the same structure.
Like I said... I've seen people who I thought were complete rakes get
their pink slips and I wondered why. Then I saw them actually shine in
an unexpected moment and I realized that their heart was the determining
factor, not my opinions. I don't have to like them, but I can't deny
when I see the ECK working effortlessly though a Soul. <smile>
Rich
2005-05-28 00:36:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rich
I don't believe that Harold Soul travels to look at the personal outer
lives of initiates.
****>>>>>>>****
There's been a misunderstanding on your part perhaps because of my
so-so writing skills.
Aloha Melinda(or is it Jack?),

No misunderstanding, it wasn't you at all. That was solely _my_ take on
the situation.
Post by Rich
Sri Harold does not Soul Travel to look at the
personal OUTER lives of disciples.
Yes...
Post by Rich
As a Master who has initiated
disciples, via the Soul body he is always with them all the time. He
does not have to Soul Travel over.
My point is that Soul Travel only happens in duality, yes? Peoples
outer lives are in duality, yes? The "he" you refer to is actually an
It, Soul, direct perception, yes? However let's not get hung up in
semantics. We agree that Harold in human consciousness doesn't move in
duality to observe initiate candidates.
Post by Rich
However, it is unfortunate that some initiates feel it is their
spiritual service to examine, judge and spy on the personal outer lives
of other initiates and doing so all in the name of the Divine Power.
Unlike Kent's atrocity story, my experience over the years has shown
that not to be a real problem. No doubt there might be individuals like
Kent here and there, that regard it that way, but in fact those that
give input are repeatedly reminded to not do those things.
Post by Rich
While a Soul to Soul observation may show that one
is spiritually developed, that does not signify balance or commitment
outwardly one way or the other. Feedback from the field does.
****>>>>****
As Soul, a Living Master does not need "feedback from the field" to
determine commitment, balance or anything else.
Yes, as Soul. I'm not sure what Living Masters you are referring to,
but Eckankar Masters obviously always have. It's for the very reason
you agreed with. They don't examine people's outer lives by Soul
traveling to their homes, work, Eckankar activities ect. The difference
is subjective vs objective factual information, which is exactly the
kind of input from the field that is asked for. Harold wants to take
_both_ into consideration.
Post by Rich
In the Soul body, the
Mahanta is all powerful, all present and all wise. People making this
"feedback" are not all powerful, all present and all wise. Only a
Master, as Soul, can really know the heart of another.
Which is exactly why these people are charged with not making subjective
judgments. Have you ever been asked for input from the RESA? Have you
personally observed what Kent described? Have you experienced it as
being a common practice in Eckankar? Or are you taking Kent's word for
it?
Post by Rich
Depending and relying upon "feedback from the field" creates a
situation
*IF* the way Kent describes the input from the field is accurate, but
it's not. It's just more strawmen. You've read responses to what he
wrote. Surely you have seen clear examples of how he skillfully uses
strawman to prop up arguments, falsely projecting words, thoughts and
feelings to people on this NG without other support? You have said so
yourself. Why do you think this one is different?

Here's how it often works on some. First he sets up an Eckankar
strawman. Then he cites a scenario that most everyone would agree with,
and even get angry and indignant at the thought of such behavior. Then
that emotional charge is subtly transferred to the strawman. I could
show you a hundred examples in the archives.
Post by Rich
that Kent described so well: people not deserving of
initiations getting them for reasons other than spiritual growth. Some
are married or living with or dating the "right" person. Some are very
popular, and or wealthy and or charismatic. Some have parents who are
long time members in good standing. And many, many other reasons having
nothing to do with spiritual growth.
Yes, that Kent's atrocity story.
http://makeashorterlink.com/?L20F41678
Believe it if you want. I can only tell you that IME almost every
element in that story is exaggerated or simply false. Therefore his
conclusion are way off base even though the strawman has been knocked
down.
Post by Rich
Kent was skeptical for over a year about the teachings but kept up all
outward appearances. Therefore, he received his 6th initiation.
"Feedback from the field" made a mistake, once again.
Really? How would you know that? Seriously.

Think about this possibility. As I understand it input from local HI's
address only objective criteria. He was outwardly lying and faking
commitment and balance... However, in a purely spiritual sense, as
Soul he was ready for a new opportunity. He rejected it. No big deal.
It was always his choice what path to follow.
Post by Rich
People are
falliable, biased, intolerant. All of us as human beings are to a
greater or lesser extent. We are limited by time and space and
everything else. A Living Master, As Soul has no such limitations.
I wonder how many outer initiations Sri Paul would have received if he
had to participate in this "recommendation" initiation system given his
insatiable and yet commendable need to just be himself and not be part
of what he deemed a very homogenous society.
That's a very interesting thought.<G>

However, the fallacy is that input from the field is not the deciding
criteria for initiations. It is as you say, the Mahanta with It's "all
powerful, all present and all wise" POV.
Post by Rich
This "recommendation"
system is so heavily controlled by people who in their arrogance think
they are capable and deserving of the right to make judgments about the
commitment to spiritual practice and balance of others.
IME you are misinformed about that. It is the Living ECK Master that
controls it.
` o
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Rich~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Sailing the CyberSea~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
observer part II
2005-05-28 09:58:21 UTC
Permalink
Cher, Rich,

Thanks for your responses.

A quote from Sri Paul sums it up nicely and allows for patience and
perserverance regardless of whatever is going on or not.

It's from Stranger by the River, on page 62 in the newer hard cover
edition:

The word of God is bread and wine for the struggling. No man can hold
his fellowman under his petty self, for someday God appears and then
all the little desires and willpowers of the lower self are dried up
like a puddle of water in the hot sunlight. Those who have been
withheld from God go forward to Him, and the Soul who had control must
learn a lesson.
leaf
2005-05-28 01:26:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by observer part II
Just about everything you have written here is true Kent. Others who
have also been higher initiates who were initiators have indicated
similar or the same types of experiences with the initiation process as
you have indicated. Your post is just further corroboration.
I especially liked how you explained the process where disciples beat
themselves up inwardly when they see other people getting initiation
after initiation while they themselves are passed by. It's painful to
experience, it's painful to watch.
But there are some intangibles that might need to be considered as
well.
First off, whether one calls it the "Mahanta" or whether it is because
of the the second initiation where one is connected to the sound
current, there is a protection and guidance that exists for the
disciple in a very direct way that the disciple was not conscious of
very often, prior to this connection. Imho, there is no more important
initiation or connection process than this first connection with the
sound current.
Secondly, those who get initiations based on "recommendations" because
of their popularity or because of who their friends are or because of
who their parents are, or for whatever reason beyond true spiritual
growth, often do not have the spiritual power that their level of
initiation would seem to indicate. This happens quite often, imho,
unfortunately. It's a lesson for all of us not to get too wrapped up in
the social consciousness as concerns the outer initiation statures of
others. One's spiritual practice must be strong and disciplined and
on-going to partake daily of the inner spiritual universes.
Where I disagree with you is with the idea you outline as concerns the
supposedly limited capacities of an omniscient being such as as fully
evolved Soul.
If one is above time and space as Soul, it is possible for that Soul to
check an infinite amount of chelas who are being considered for
initiations. It would not take all day for the Living Master to be in
contemplation making this person unable to attend to any other
responsibilities as you have stated.
As Soul, which is beyond eternity and which is above time and space,
initiation considerations could be done for billions of disciples, if
need be, in what would be mere seconds as we understand time here.
Perhaps, but my point was this: Even if such a being could do this on
the inner with such rapidity, it is another thing entirely to convey
the information to the physical world in order to physically send out
the initiation slips. That still would take time. The "master" would
have to convey, either in writing or verbally to an assistant, which
students are on the list.

Another thing: Twitchell and Klemp are on record stating that the
reading the soul records takes HOURS just for one individual. They are
the masters of Eckankar who came up with the initiations, and they say
it takes hours to read soul records, and they say soul records are read
to approve initiations. Twitchell said he stopped his policy of
responding to requests for him to read soul records, since it took up
too much of his time. Do the math. Several hours per student,
multiplied by 50,000 students. By their own terms this would be
impossible. In my own calcualtions, I only used fifteen minutes per
student. By their own terms, it would be much more than that.

And another thing: Why would beings so wonderfully advanced concern
themselves with such a stupid system of initiations? Why not leave it
on the inner? And why would they stop at card carrying members, if
their powers are as unlimited as you say? Clearly there are souls who
are as advanced as say, Cher and Rich (you get the point), out there in
the world. Why wouldn't such beings initiate anyone, anywhere, no
matter what religion they followed? With this last point, I am getting
close to explaining my own views about all of this. I think there are
no bondaries between religions. If there are such advanced beings, they
wouldn't waste their time with just ONE group or religion. They
wouldn't even think twice about Ecklankar. They would serve all life,
everywhere. Religious institutions of man would insignificant to them.
They wouldn't even concieve of the world in such terms. They would see
soul, as it is, not as a member of this group or that group. How silly
that would be!

Leaf
Post by observer part II
But this begs the question. Why would an Ominescient being need
recommendations from people coming from the human state of
consciousness?
Perhaps in the future only the initial connection with the sound
current will be given like in other light and sound paths. All
initiations thereafter would be given only during one's dreams or in
one's meditations. And hopefully, the practice of accepting
recommendations for initiations will be scrapped once and for all.
Hopefully!
cher
2005-05-28 01:58:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by leaf
Post by observer part II
As Soul, which is beyond eternity and which is above time and space,
initiation considerations could be done for billions of disciples, if
need be, in what would be mere seconds as we understand time here.
Perhaps, but my point was this: Even if such a being could do this on
the inner with such rapidity, it is another thing entirely to convey
the information to the physical world in order to physically send out
the initiation slips. That still would take time. The "master" would
have to convey, either in writing or verbally to an assistant, which
students are on the list.
Well as long as you're pretending to be the master here..... this
imaginary master could do what you did, kent. He could just phone it in.
<shrug>
Post by leaf
Another thing: Twitchell and Klemp are on record stating that the
reading the soul records takes HOURS just for one individual. They are
the masters of Eckankar who came up with the initiations, and they say
it takes hours to read soul records, and they say soul records are read
to approve initiations. Twitchell said he stopped his policy of
responding to requests for him to read soul records, since it took up
too much of his time. Do the math. Several hours per student,
multiplied by 50,000 students. By their own terms this would be
impossible. In my own calcualtions, I only used fifteen minutes per
student. By their own terms, it would be much more than that.
You were phoning it in kent! LOL.... And you are sitting here talking
about how the MASTERS do it? <chuckle> Well in your imaginary religion,
who knows. After all, you'd be living in a fairy tale castle that costs
no money or taxes or upkeep. You'd have magical frufru fairies to hand
carry the names from one room to another, no doubt. <smile>
Post by leaf
And another thing: Why would beings so wonderfully advanced concern
themselves with such a stupid system of initiations? Why not leave it
on the inner? And why would they stop at card carrying members, if
their powers are as unlimited as you say? Clearly there are souls who
are as advanced as say, Cher and Rich (you get the point), out there in
the world. Why wouldn't such beings initiate anyone, anywhere, no
matter what religion they followed? With this last point, I am getting
That's up to you kent! You're the one pretending to be a Master tonight!
If you want a generic initiation, buy a box of fortune cookies! I can't
speak for Rich, for I for one am not interested in your fairy tale
religion. Guess you'll just have to keep looking for that perfect master
and his fairy tale teachings, dear. Good luck on that one! <smile>
Post by leaf
close to explaining my own views about all of this. I think there are
no bondaries between religions. If there are such advanced beings, they
wouldn't waste their time with just ONE group or religion. They
wouldn't even think twice about Ecklankar. They would serve all life,
everywhere. Religious institutions of man would insignificant to them.
They wouldn't even concieve of the world in such terms. They would see
soul, as it is, not as a member of this group or that group. How silly
that would be!
You're the one whose making a distinction with lots of insults dear. The
biggest problem with fairy tale religions is that while they include
everyone, they also exclude those that aren't them. You'd be right back
where you started. <smile> But for the record, if you find this fairy
tale religion you're speaking of here please come to the group and tell
us what and where it is! I'm sure everyone would love to know where to
find this religion you detractors keep touting here day after day.
<wink>
Post by leaf
Leaf
Rich
2005-05-28 02:05:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by leaf
Another thing: Twitchell and Klemp are on record stating that the
reading the soul records takes HOURS just for one individual.
Yes, but they were discussing something other than initiations, so this
does not apply to how initiations are approved.

What logical fallacy would that be?
` o
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Rich~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Sailing the CyberSea~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
B***@budweiser.com
2005-05-28 03:51:18 UTC
Permalink
Thank you for posting this. Even without it I could tell that the
Eckankar initiations are as you wrote, bogus. You won't catch me
joining Eckankar. I feel amazed that i even considered joining.
leaf
2005-05-28 19:31:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by B***@budweiser.com
Thank you for posting this. Even without it I could tell that the
Eckankar initiations are as you wrote, bogus. You won't catch me
joining Eckankar. I feel amazed that i even considered joining.
Thanks, Bob. Wise decision! (In my view, anyway...)

leaf

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