Post by EtznabPost by KinpaPost by c***@gmail.comHi Ben, long time no hear. I notice a few names but let me ask you, why is this newsgroup still around? seriously, I think everything has been said and done about the plagiarism and Paul's birth date and yada yada...what else is left?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
SEAN and ETZNOB, PAY ATTENTION TO THIS SENTENCE ABOVE!
Post by c***@gmail.comI was pretty much a wiseass on this newsgroup and it was more an exercise in anger than really hating Eckankar. I never think about it anymore but I thought I'd just drop by and say hello to whoever is left. Anyway, hope all is well with you and Sean and Etznab and werntrp (sp)! Life is good. Retired and had a grandson a few months ago. Still playing music and enjoying life here in Princeton NJ.
Alf
Post by Ben DouglassHi Alfie
I also heard that Nathan Zafran (Swordsman of the Sugmad)passed. however, I could be wrong. Second-hand info. Was friends on Facebook five years ago but lost track. He had also left Eckankar.
Ben Douglass, A.K.A., Swami mocha, Benji, et al.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
There is no further affect to be gained from endlessly attaching oneself to plagiarisms. But by all means, feel free to waste as much of your time as YOU feel is necessary, just don't be angry that it amounts to nothing...you CHOSE to spend your time and attention on it....
Many, many more examples of copying and plagiarism have surfaced since the old days when people wrongly suggested the amount was 2%. That some people haven't been around here for years and are looking at an outdated picture of things is their viewpoint. Each and every new example of appropriated material and plagiarized text adds more to the picture. Do you honestly think that the recent visitors have all of a sudden read years of posts in the brief time they've been back.
(1) " 'To show where a lot of the ECK writings on earth came from,
[... .]" - Based on Doug Marman's version in his 2000 online book.
http://www.littleknownpubs.com/Dialog_Ch_Ten.htm
(2) "[...] For ... from where a lot of the writings ... Eck writings
on Earth came from [... .]" - Version based on 1984 (April) Eckankar
International Youth Conference, audiotape 4312, copyright 1984, side
two (near the end).
(3) "[...] For a lot of the ECK writings to be done on earth, [... .]"
- Based on: Eckankar transcript version in Harold's book and on the
official Eckankar website.
http://www.eckankar.org/Masters/Peddar/writings.html
*********
Apparently, both Doug Marman's version and the Eckankar transcript version are not exactly the words Harold Klemp spoke in April 1984; concerning Harold's encounter with the late Paul Twitchell at the astral plane library, what have you.
I never before noticed that three different versions existed. And while it is common for the transcript and book versions of talks to differ from the actual talk, with this particular sentence I see a remarkable difference.
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.religion.eckankar/8_wBxuhcsJg/ehjUgrTGwzQJ
"In doing all this, Paul was bringing to ECKANKAR a freedom from past traditions while incorporating the elements from them that were vital. The concept of spiritual lineage was important, but the restrictions, traditions and worship that go along with physical lineage was not. Therefore, Paul described the spiritual line of ECK Masters, not for its historical accuracy based upon historical records, but to show that as the Sufis say there is always one who is the spiritual Pole of the world, and this light has passed from continent to continent, from race to race, from culture to culture,
down through time.
"Therefore, when Kirpal changed his attitude toward Paul, and Paul began to remove Kirpal's name from his writings, replacing it with Sudar Singh or Rebazar Tarzs, Paul also began to see a whole new direction for his teaching of ECKANKAR. It was one wholly connected to an inner source, not tied to history or tradition, or even his own past. [... .]"
http://www.littleknownpubs.com/Dialog_Ch_Five.htm
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.religion.eckankar/8_wBxuhcsJg/Qy1UcDrM5asJ
"[...] its surprising how many people do not care in the least, at this point in time, about Paul Twitchell's plagiarisms, being that every spiritual path on the planet took from previous teachings and then propelled them into further development and evolution....great stuff! [... .]"
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.religion.eckankar/A6-M2o6FDeM/6avOAVYTHEsJ
I think you and Doug are similar in your attempt to condone the rewriting of history and rewriting of other people's text. This "rewriting" thing seems very popular as if somehow the words "inner" and "spiritual" naturally eclipse the actual events of history.
Rebazar Tarzs was supposed to be real remember? As is "LIVING" master. Someone who actually lived, or is still alive. So why then do we see this name Rebazar Tarzs eclipsing earlier names of real living people and how can the name be as if credited to so many plagiarized and copied texts? Perhaps when the vital and living element is taken out of the picture?
"3. Did Paul Twitchell copy other writers works?"
How did Doug answer?
"Yes. Well, I guess I can give yes or no answers sometimes."
"4. Did Paul Twitchell use other writers words and put his Eck masters names on them as if the Eck Master were saying them?"
How did Doug answer?
He answered: "Yes."
Based on: - A Few Responses - Doug Marman - February 8th, 2004
http://www.thetruth-seeker.com/dispBB.aspx?st=268&page=168#m264
What does that look like to you? And can you see why I have researched and asked many times about What was / is Rebazar Tarzs really?
Take a look at how many real living people and historical figures were changed and replaced with other names in the following list. It might be evolution and development, freedom from tradition, etc. but it also is FICTION and pseudo man-made history / religion.
Now all of the findings based on evidence that you and others can't stand to look at and acknowledge as noteworthy can be brought here because there are REAL reasons for it to be brought here. And then you and others since you can't stand to look at and acknowledge it as noteworthy paint a dark picture of it and those who discuss these things by projecting your fears about what it means and placing blame on the messenger. These, IMO, are attempts to detract, deflect, to bob and weave from the truth. I've been in this group a long time and have seen the tactics used to dismiss all of these things that I have shown examples of, but did not create to begin with. Iow, I did not copy, plagiarize and paraphrase a whole host of new age authors, etc., and weave a mythology, or dogma around it that countless individuals took to be literally true. Nor is it a requirement for a religious follower of Eckankar to accept the unproven and imaginary claims of others. This is why I learned long ago it was useless to try and debate the issues raised without providing examples and evidence. Now with that said, I challenge you to deny that Paul Twitchell and Eckankar made money by publishing of many books and that many of those books contained copied and recycled text from real people, but that was instead credited to Eck Masters.
I think there is a limit that a person can go to with creating fictions and so some clarification is necessary for that purpose. So you, Doug and others can use the "play dough" of spirit to form any shape or imagining that you want and it doesn't automatically make a living person. You can use the "silly puddy" of fabrication to copy any text you so choose and it doesn't mean that you were the originator of the copied words.
Does Kinpa care to answer this post?
"... Your not the Eckankar P.R. person are you?"
And after that Kinpa had nothing further to say on this thread?
Why did Etznab ask whether Kinpa was the Eckankar P.R. person?
Look at the posts on this thread and the words that Kinpa used.
So that is why.
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.religion.eckankar/A6-M2o6FDeM/8eCVCH3rBQAJ
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.religion.eckankar/A6-M2o6FDeM/cbvbr0LTIF4J
Did those beings also tell you to write about poop and start a poop collection?
The "list" that I referred to.
Of the several articles reprinted in Introduction to Eckankar, most have undergone name replacements. A total of at least eight names have been edited out and replaced with a hierarchy of Eck masters. The list of names edited out includes Sawan Singh, Kirpal Singh, and Swami Premananda. Each guru has either been replaced by "Sudar Singh" or "Rebazar Tarzs," while the main text remains untouched. Although Twitchell attempted to do a scrupulous job of redacting, he made one slight error in the index to Introduction to Eckankar. The editor lists the name "Sawan Singh" as occurring on page five of the text; yet, on page five, it reads "Sudar Singh." The first four editions of the booklet carried the error; the fifth edition finally corrected it. The original article from which the mistake was made was published in the September 1965 issue of Search Magazine. It reads in part:
"From Kabir's day those who have helped spread the doctrine of bilocation were mainly, the leader of the Sikh order, especially Nanka Guru [sic], the founder. Others have been the Sufi saints, e.g., Hafiz, Jalal din Rumi, Shamus Tabriz, and Sawan Singh, Kirpal Singh, St. Anthony of Padua, and the contemporary clergyman, Padre Pie [sic], to name a few."
The reprinted, "Can You Be in Two Places At The Same Time," in the booklet Introduction to Eckankar, reads:
"From Kabir's day, those who have helped spread the doctrine of Soul Travel were mainly the leaders of the Sikh order, especially Nanka Guru [sic], the founder. Others have been the Sufi saints, e.g., Hafiz, Jalal din'l Rumi, Shamus Tabriz, Sudar Singh, St. Anthony of Padua, and the contemporary clergyman, Padre Pio, to name a few." [5]
[5] Paul Twitchell, Introduction to Eckankar (Las Vegas: Illuminated Way Press, 1966), pages 2-6.]
In the original article, Twitchell had mentioned Kirpal Singh three times; in the revised edition his name has been changed to read "Sudar Singh." The original reads:
"Kirpal Singh who is still at his own ashram in India, has the ability to appear to his own people, in his Nuri Sarup body, no matter where they may be. A skill which almost anybody can learn who gets the knack of bilocation. Among my numerous discourses from many gurus in the flesh and those on the inner planes, are those taken down when Kirpal Singh appeared in my apartment in Washington, D.C., in his light body, although his flesh self was six-thousand miles away in India."
The revised article, with name replacements, reads:
"Sudar Singh, who lived in his ashram in India, had the ability to appear to his own people in his Atma Sarup body, no matter where they might be. A skill almost anyone can learn who gets the knack of Soul Travel. . . Among my numerous discourses from many gurus in the flesh and those on the inner planes, are taken down when Sudar Singh appeared in my apartment in New York City, in his light body, although his flesh self was six thousand miles away in India."
Not only had Twitchell changed the name Kirpal Singh to "Sudar Singh," he also altered certain factors in his past to fit in with his "new" biography. Writes Woodrow Nichols:
"This holy cover-up was nothing new in the previous experience of Paul Twitchell. If we go back to Singh's accusation that there were some facts (descriptions) in The Tiger's Fang that were inaccurate, it should become apparent that Twitchell had a long history of rewriting history." [6]
[6] Woodrow Nichols and Mark Albrecht, "Eckankar: The Ancient Science of Deception," op. cit.
The Flute of God: A Case Study of Re-Editing
Twitchell's enormous editing of names reached a pinnacle when he decided to publish in book form The Flute of God. The work was originally printed in installments in Orion Magazine, from 1965 to 1967. The first six chapters of the text profusely mention the names of Kirpal Singh, Sawan Singh, and Jesus Christ. When Twitchell had the book republished, however, he redacted every single mention of Kirpal Singh, Sawan Singh, and Swami Premananda. In some cases, he even edited out the name Jesus and replaced it with "Gopal Das" or other Eckankar Masters. And, although he quotes from the Christian Bible, he even changes the name of his source (to that of the Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad) while retaining the same biblical quote. Below is a comparison study of the two versions. Remember that the Orion version is the earliest, and that Twitchell's editing is primarily "name replacements."
The Flute Of God by Paul Twitchell as it appeared in installments in Orion Magazine. Chapter I - "In The Beginning" (March-April, 1966):
Par. 3: "I remember very well when Swami Premananda, of India, who has a Yoga church in Washington, D. C., said, 'When someone asked Bertrand Russell what his philosophy of Life was, he wrote several volumes of books on the subject."
The Flute Of God by Paul Twitchell as published by Illuminated Way Press (1970). Chapter I - "In The Beginning":
Par. 3: "I remember very well when Sudar Singh, the great Eck Master said, 'When someone asked Bertrand Russell what his philosophy of Life was, he wrote several volumes of books on the subject."
The Flute Of God by Paul Twitchell as it appeared in installments in Orion Magazine. Chapter I - "In The Beginning" (March-April, 1966):
Par. 15: "I have studied under many teacher [sic], and may yet have to study under more. Like Meher Baba, the Indian saint, who was said to have nineteen teachers to help him gain his place in the universe, I have so far had seven, some outstanding ones, including Sri Kirpal Singh, of Delhi, India."
The Flute Of God by Paul Twitchell as published by Illuminated Way Press (1970). Chapter I - "In The Beginning":
Par. 16: "I have studied under many ECK Masters only they have led me to the highest truth. Like Fubbi Quantz, the ECK saint, who was said to have nineteen teachers to help him gain his place in the universe, I have also had several, each outstanding, one being Sudar Singh of India."
The Flute Of God by Paul Twitchell as it appeared in installments in Orion Magazine. Chapter I - "In The Beginning" (March-April, 1966):
Par. 16: "Each has had a place in my growth toward the spiritual goal; each are equally great in their work for mankind. However, I have felt a closer kinship and friendliness to Kirpal Singh, who has shown me a lot of the other work during my first year or so under him. Since we have parted he keeps an impartial view toward me and my research. Therefore, if I quote him in these pages it is because I feel that he is sympathetic and interested in my work."
The Flute Of God by Paul Twitchell as published by Illuminated Way Press (1970). Chapter I - "In The Beginning":
Par. 17: "Each has had a place in my growth toward the spiritual goal; each is equally great in his work for mankind. However, I have felt a closer kinship and friendliness to Sudar Singh, who showed me a lot of the other work, during my first year or so under him. Since we have parted he has retained an impartial view toward me and my research. If I quote him in these pages it is because I feel that he is sympathetic and interested in my work and led me to Rebazar Tarzs."
The Flute Of God by Paul Twitchell as it appeared in installments in Orion Magazine. Chapter I - "In The Beginning" (March-April, 1966):
Par. 32: "Life fascinates me. Certain details of life to be worked out are strange. Lying on the bed late at night I watch the pattern of shadows weaving about the room. In the presence of familiar night visitors like Kirpal Singh, or Rebazar Tarzs, a Tibetan Lama, who come often in their Nuri-Sarup, or others, some strangers, some friends, I wonder about life."
The Flute Of God by Paul Twitchell as published by Illuminated Way Press (1970). Chapter I - "In The Beginning":
Par. 34: "Life fascinates me. Certain details of life that have to be worked out are strange. Lying on the bed late at night I watch the pattern of shadows weaving about the room. In the presence of familiar night visitors like Sudar Singh, or Rebazar Tarzs, the ECK Masters who come often in their Nuri-Sarup bodies, or others, some strangers, some friends, I wonder about life."
The Flute Of God by Paul Twitchell as it appeared in installments in Orion Magazine. Chapter II - "The Symbol of The Princes":
Par. 12: "Therefore, the principal (sic) involved here is: `We live and have our being in the Supreme Being.' Jesus said it in another way as `we move and have our being in God.' Other savants e.g., Jalalddin Maulana Rumi put it another way, `Divine Grace is not limited by the conditions of ability, but ability, in fact, is conditioned by Divine Grace.'"
The Flute Of God by Paul Twitchell as published by Illuminated Way Press (1970). Chapter II - "The Symbol of The Princes":
Par. 11: "Therefore, the principle involved here is,`We live and have our being in the Supreme Being.' Lai Tsi, the Chinese ECK Master, said it this way, `We live and move and have our being in the SUGMAD.' Other savants state it in a slightly different vein. For instance, Jalaluddin Maulana Rumi said, `Divine Grace is not limited by the conditions of ability - -but ability, in fact, is conditioned by Divine Grace.'"
The Flute Of God by Paul Twitchell as it appeared in installments in Orion Magazine. Chapter II - "The Symbol of The Princes":
Par. 48: "This is what Kirpal Singh speaks of in his discourses. `We must become the conscious co-worker of God.' Meaning, of course, that once man is freed of his imbalances he inherits the throne and does his work for the whole."
The Flute Of God by Paul Twitchell as published by Illuminated Way Press (1970). Chapter II - "The Symbol of the Princes":
Par. 45: "This is what Sudar Singh spoke of in his dialogues. `We must become the conscious co-workers of God.'"
The Flute Of God by Paul Twitchell as it appeared in installments in Orion Magazine. Chapter III - "Purification of the Princes" (Sept.-Oct. 1966):
Par. 37: "All masters of earlier days, to name a few: Buddha, Gura Nanak (sic), Christ, Mohammed, Zoroaster, Lao Tse, George Fox, Sawan Singh, Confucius, Krishna and Shankhacharya exhorted us to know ourselves. Kabir says the same thing `Learn to die a hundred times daily, not once.'"
The Flute Of God by Paul Twitchell as published by Illuminated Way Press (1970). Chapter III - "Purification of the Princes":
Par. 37: "All ECK Masters of earlier days exhorted us to know ourselves. . .Gopal Das says the same thing, `Learn to die a hundred times daily, not once.'"
The Flute Of God by Paul Twitchell as it appeared in installments in Orion Magazine. Chapter III - "Purification of the Princes" (Sept.-Oct. 1966):
Par. 38: "Christ said, 'Blessed are the pure in heart for they shall see God.' Guru Nanak said, 'Be pure that truth may be realized.'"
The Flute Of God by Paul Twitchell as published by Illuminated Way Press (1970). Chapter III - "Purification of the Princes":
Par. 38: "Jesus said, 'Blessed are the pure in heart for they shall see God.' Rebazar Tarzs said, 'Be pure so that truth may be known.'"
The Flute Of God by Paul Twitchell as it appeared in installment in Orion Magazine. Ch. I, Par. 41:
"When Jesus looked upon His people and said, `I cannot tell you more because you cannot hear the whole truth.' He was saying that they were so far down the spiral of life they could not grasp His meaning. To tell them all would bring disorder into their lives, for once exposed to Truth, those not understanding develop hostility."
The Flute Of God by Paul Twitchell as published by Illuminated Way Press (1970). Ch. I, Par. 42:
"When the ECK Master, Gopal Das, looked upon his people and said, `I cannot tell you more because you cannot hear the whole ECK,' he was saying that they were so far down the spiral of life they could not grasp his meaning. To tell them would bring disorder into their lives, for once exposed to Truth, those not understanding develop hostility."
The Flute Of God by Paul Twitchell as it appeared in installments in Orion Magazine. Ch. I, Par. 44:
"One of my experiences while serving under the Yoga Satsang line of masters, was that I found one of the masters in the guise of a beggar. I had been in difficulty for sometime, and very unhappy over the fact that nothing could be found to solve my problem."
The Flute Of God by Paul Twitchell as published by Illuminated Way Press (1970). Ch. I, Par. 45:
"One of my experiences, while serving under Rebazar Tarzs, was that I found one of the ECK Masters in the guise of a beggar. I had been in difficulty for some time, and was very unhappy over the fact that nothing could be found to solve my problem."
Postscript: The Last Letter
"I have never recognized you as a master, or that you give initiations, and that your work is not in the best interest of spirituality. Your teachings are orthodox, and as a preacher you are not capable of assisting anyone spiritually."
--Paul Twitchell, 1971
(Personal letter to Kirpal Singh of Delhi, India) [7]
"My Saints are Kabir. . . Rumi, Hafiz, Shamusi-Tabriz ...and Kirpal Singh of India." --Paul Twitchell, 1964 [8]
"Master Kirpal Singh spoke briefly of these masters when he took me through the several invisible worlds in 1957." --Paul Twitchell, 1964 [9]
"Kirpal Singh who is still living in his own ashram in India, has the ability to appear to his own people, in his Nuri Sarup body, no matter where they might be." --Paul Twitchell, 1965 [10]
"I have studied under many teacher [sic]. I have so far had seven, some outstanding ones, including Sri Kirpal Singh, of Delhi, India." --Paul Twitchell, 1966 [11]
As Paul Twitchell edited out the name Kirpal Singh in every rewrite he undertook, his cover-up grew by the late 1960's to such proportions that he even denied he was once initiated by Kirpal Singh. To many who knew him earlier, Twitchell had gone too far. Several, if not many, disciples of Kirpal Singh had attended satsangs with him; some had even been present at his initiation ceremony in 1955. Yet, Twitchell persisted: he continued to deny that he had any spiritual link with Kirpal Singh. He even went so far as to openly refute on tape that Kirpal Singh was the successor to Sawan Singh of Radhasoami Satsang Beas (who died in 1948), though it contradicted what he had stated previously in 1965. Claimed Twitchell:
"Guru Nanak became the founder of the Sikh order. Sawan Singh was the last of the Swami group of Masters. . . and Kirpal Singh claimed to become a follower in the same line of masters, and also Charan Singh who was a nephew [sic: Charan Singh is a grandson] of Sawan Singh, but neither one are masters because the mastership of this line stopped at Sawan Singh." [12]
[7] Dorothe Ross, "All That Glistens is Not Gold," Leadership in Eck (July-August-September, 1976).
[8] Paul Twitchell, "The Cliff Hanger," Psychic Observer, op. cit.
[9] Paul Twitchell, "The God Eaters," Psychic Observer, op cit.
[10] Paul Twitchell, "Can You Be In Two Places At The Same Time," Search (September 1965), page 22.
[11] Paul Twitchell, "The Flute of God," Orion Magazine (March-April 1966), page 32.
[12] Bernadine Burlin, personal letter to the author, dated April 5, 1977.
Yet only five years previously, Twitchell wrote:
"These few who are following the ancient science do so loosely. However, Kirpal Singh, a living Guru, teaches the art (as) closely to the ancient teachings (as) possible, at his ashram in Old Delhi, India." ....
http://webspace.webring.com/people/de/eckcult/chapters/tmsm5.html
