Post by KinpaPost by EtznabPost by KinpaPost by EtznabYears of discussion about the truth of Eckankar masters. How does paraphrase, plagiarism and copying animate real living masters?
It doesn't. Real living masters are animated by having been born in the flesh and really living. Not by coming to life in people's imaginations. The latter is more along the lines of pulp fiction. The kind of writers that Paul Twitchell and L. Ron Hubbard were before launching their organizations. Including stories about beings from Venus.
Fake masters using beliefs about world history written by New Age authors? What? The masters can't say what they believe? Masters from an ancient unbroken lineage going back millions of years to Gakko from Venus?
My point is that when the masters aren't real, but are fake, that's all they (the person making them up) can do is copy other people's words. Or use their own words, or imaginations to make them look real.
Copied words from other writers doesn't equate with wisdom from ancient masters. It equates with copied material. And if any parts of the copied materials contain untrue information, the untrue information gets copied as well!
Real masters are supposed to help clarify fact from fiction. Especially with regard to world history and the past. Making things up that aren't true is not what testifies of mastership. Master compiler, changing the author and source, stealing credit from the published author, creating a pseudo religion and history in the process is not a truth master, but a writer confusing fiction with fact. A master of deception might have one believe plagiarism animated puppets are real, but how can they be?
Eckankar has to go forward with the truth. Including the truth about fake masters. Eckankar members and clergy have to go forward with the truth as well, if you ask me. And if a religion is not going forward with the truth, then where is it going? Into a world of make believe?
There is no choice anymore about honoring the truth. Especially since the truth is becoming more and more known. Lots of religions and preachers are doing this. Not necessarily because they want to depart from the old ways of doing things, but because they have to. People want the truth, not some cheap pretend imitation of truth like recycled information from library books trying to pass as ancient religion and ancient masters.
Paul Twitchell was a known plagiarist. The leader of Eckankar called him a master compiler. Is this what a master is?
Paul Twitchell "compiled" what a master was. From someone else writing about what they thought a genuine master was. And Paul Twitchell made out that his master taught him this. Describing things many times in the exact same way as was written in a book Paul Twitchell compiled it from.
Here is an example
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/8uMk2FC1cvQ/m/hpGaE0hrAAAJ
Do Kinpa and Fife (if they really are two different people) care about this truth? Can they admit this truth? Let's ask them. Let's ask them and ignore their trying to avoid, or change the subject and personally attack the question. I think this will show us who is moving forward with the truth about Eckankar and who is lost in the old land of make believe.
Which truth is "this truth?" There is no them. There are I and another person that I don't know. You can insist we are the same individual all you'd like, but that can never prove it true, or even likely.
What is it specifically that you'd like to be admitted? Plagiarism? It doesn't bother me and it isn't relevant to the information contained and never could be. Various religions teach the exact same things. That is because they believe (or experience) them to be true and worth teaching. It changes nothing if someone copies a thing from one book and puts it in another. Your insistence that somehow it miraculously does is the thing I've the problem with, but hey, you can view things the way you'd like.
Prove that Rebazar is fiction why don't you? Oh that's right, you don't because you can't. Plagiarism doesn't prove such a thing ever. It is a separate topic. Just because you so obviously find it a means to question PT's honesty, and then proceed to use that excuse to stretch it across everything he ever wrote doesn't make it even slightly true. It only proves that you assume it true, which is a mere belief, not unlike most in every religion on the planet. The thing is your inability to admit that to yourself. If you've ever said that here I haven't seen it.
So, in the end you believe that PT lied by using plagiarism and claiming he was told those passages by a Master, and in your mind that "proves" that no such Master ever existed. Only it does no such thing. At best it might prove the plagiarism, but it prove not one thing about any Master, and you can interchange any of them in Rebazar's place.
I guess you're lucky overall that you are unable to consciously leave the body...you might accidentally run into him somewhere. That also doesn't explain exactly how the numerous non-ECKists that know he exists from interacting with him over years of time were able to, since he is just PT's creation meant only to house some plagiarism. I'd guess that that uncomfortable truth would just be chalked up to being untrue and a lie, because that conclusion obviously fits within your already existing POV.
In the end, it doesn't make any difference to anyone but yourself. Those who are taught by him will continue to be regardless of your suppositions about him. And your disbelief will be the only possibility you'll ever accept as existing in reality, despite that it is merely your own mental non-reality (belief, claim, or any other word that fits). In the end you get exactly nowhere and have no truth. You only accept belief as being truth, as you've been doing here for years. Should you ever actually present evidence to support one of these claims, hey I'll admit it. But you haven't as of yet. Your usage of the word fake in the title of the thread is mere assumption. Purely subjective. It has nothing to do with any truth. You don't actually know much at all that is relevant, but boy do you enjoy hearing yourself talk! No one can deny that fact. Enjoy it while you can as you seem to not have much else to go with these days.
Plagiarism is not another topic when the plagiarist is said to be Rebazar Tarzs.
You don't get it. Do you?
No, it is you who isn't getting it. Prove that Rebazar Tarzs plagiarized anything. You can't because you have no recording of him saying anything, therefore the only "plagiarism" is committed by Paul Twitchell, who wrote the words in a book. End of story, unless you can prove otherwise. To do that you'd need a recording of Rebazar Tarzs. Otherwise you are making an assumption based on the written claim of Paul Twitchell. It can't be any clearer than that.
None of these prove that no such person exists either. As I already stated. Prove your case as if you were in a court of law, and use evidence that would be accepted in one, otherwise you're left with nothing more than an assumptive claim that you can't prove. It isn't complicated at all. I honestly couldn't care less whether you believe Rebazar a fiction or real, or somewhere in between. I am only asking you to prove your claim. Plagiarism doesn't do that, and if you've forgotten, I am speaking of your claim (implied by the thread title) that Rebazar is a fiction and doesn't really exist. I'm not sure how you can not understand what I'm asking for.
Give the empty (ones you've no solid evidence for) claims a rest. I've known for years that you BELIEVE that, but that isn't my concern. I asked you for evidence to support YOUR assertion, nothing more.
If you have evidence then present it, and correct that false claim that Rebazar plagiarized, you meant that Paul Twitchell plagiarized. Even if Rebazar spoke the words without giving whomever credit, that wouldn't necessarily be plagiarism especially since you cannot prove he actually spoke the words. That leaves only the writings to be used.
Have at it.
Mmmmmm, well I proved Rebazar Tarzs is fiction, a fake, not real, and was never real or lived.
Prove me wrong.
Prove rebazar tarzs exists/ever lived and died, beyond a fictional character in twitchells writings or as a thought in someone's mind, beyond a personal belief he exists.
Prove it!
Go on.
Prove your case as if you were in a court of law!
Use evidence that would be accepted in one!
Otherwise you're left with nothing more than an assumptive claim a belief or a knowing LIE that you can't prove.
It isn't complicated at all.
ME, well I honestly couldn't care less whether anyone BELIEVES Rebazar Tarzs is REAL, or a Ghost.
But I am never going to lend them money or believe a word they say on the subject matter at hand or anything else.
PROVE YOU CAN consciously leave the body
PROVE YOU have met rebazar tarzs
Give the empty (ones you've no solid evidence for) claims a rest.
YOUR BELIEFS ARE NOT MY CONCERN
I asked you for evidence to support YOUR assertion, nothing more.
If you have evidence then present it.
YOU HAVE NONE.
That leaves only YOUR BELIEFS OPINIONS AND LIES to be used.
Have at it.
--------
BUT at least he admits this
---- the only "plagiarism" is committed by Paul Twitchell, who wrote the words in a book .....
and --- that Paul Twitchell plagiarized.
yep -- and while doing some of that there plagiarism Twitchell writes that his fake master rebazar tarzs. a fiction he made up, was doing the talking of those words he wrote in the books.
that's called lying about the text [and his talks and discourses] which was plagiarised / copied from other texts.
maybe up to 95% of Twitchell's texts are copied edited material from others. none of his eckankar came from his fictional mythical ECK MASTERS HE SAID SPOKE TO HIM DIRECTLY AND WHICH FALSELY CLAIMED HE RECORDED IN HIS BOOKS/DISCOURSES.
It changes EVERYTHING if someone copies a thing from one book and puts it in another THE WAY TWITCHELL DID IT AND WHAT HE CLAIMED ABOUT IT .... THE FALSEHOODS HE TOLD ABOUT IT ... THE ECKANKAR MYTHS HE MADE UP.
------
E --- the "plagiarist" is said to be Rebazar Tarzs.
AND Twitchell says so himself ....
.... since you cannot prove he actually spoke the words.
..... You can't because you have no recording of him saying anything
BUT THERE IS A "RECORDING" .....................
WELL IT'S A TOTAL FICTION, A LIE, BUT STILL IT'S CLAIMED IN WRITING BY TWITCHELL TO BE A RECORD !!!
Here is 113 pages of evidence proving twitchell was a liar and a plagiarist putting words into fictional rebazar tarzs mouth and many other fictional non-existent fictional eck master characters ......
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B-M0yAR0UPhPSXlQVUwxbTFyenc/view?resourcekey=0-OoZ2qN0FmKH59qePaMZpuQ
eg quoting PAUL TWITCHELL HIMSELF ....
'Dialogues with the Master' Plagiarism by Paul Twitchell
Written and compiled by Etznab and Santim Vah © 2014
This document focuses on plagiarism found in the Paul Twitchell / ECKANKAR book “Dialogues with the Master” (DWTM)
The DWTM content was originally written by Twitchell circa 1956 in rough manuscript form, then redacted, and 'fitted out' for
Eckankar use and published in 1970 by Illuminated Way Press.
In the DWTM Introduction, Paul Twitchell writes: "The DIALOGUES in this book are as
close as possible to the ORIGINAL WORDS as he (Rebazar Tarzs) SPOKE during his nightly visits to give
me advanced training in the secret science of ECKANKAR."
On the Back Cover it states:
The contents of this book was the first real study of the works of ECKANKAR which I did a number
of years ago. It is the record of the spoken words of Rebazar Tarzs, the great Tibetan ECK Master,
who was training me for the future position of the next Mahanta, the Living ECK Master in this world.
The spiritual experiences which he made possible for me and the teachings were a painful
growth but nevertheless it all was necessary. Without such growth it would have never been
possible to accept the responsibility of the spiritual leadership of the ECK works in this modern world.
Rebazar Tarzs dominates the entire text of this book. Therefore it is well to study his words for
each significance which he is trying to tell me as well as the world. He speaks and acts directly at
all times without any wasted motion and effort. It will be found that whatever he has said in the
spoken word is of the highest spiritual endeavor.
It will also be shown that those great ECK Masters with whom he made contact for my benefit
spoke in a most lofty manner, but with the simplicity which all could understand. Each knew that
whatever was said was >>>>> TO BE RECORDED <<<<< for the whole of humanity. Therefore, whatever was said
must be imparted with a common understanding so their words would MEAN ONLY WHAT WAS SAID
and nothing else.
The purpose of putting this manuscript into book form, ACCORDING TO Rebazar Tarzs, was to advance
the cause of ECKANKAR in this world, to bring it out of the invisible worlds, where it was known
only to a few, so that anyone could have access to eternal light and truths. ~~ Paul Twitchell
------
SO it is simple .... IF what Twitchell said was true [it isn't] the SPOKEN WORDS OF REBAZAR TARZS WOULD MAKE HIM THE PLAGIARIST AND COPYRIGHT INFRINGER ..... but given Rebazar tarzs is nothing more than a made up fictional character in a series of FAKE STORIES ... iow a LITERARY DEVICE .... iow a NON-PERSON WHO NEVER EXISTED OR DIED .... it again puts the whole LIE onto TWITCHELL .... AND ANYONE WHO POSITS RT IS REAL ....
NOW, asking someone to prove a negative is an old trick of rhetoric. it is irrational, illogical, a fallacy, a con job, dishonest, manipulative and a lie.
SO PROVE Rebazar Tarzs is REAL
PROVE RT exists/ever lived and died, is a real eck master, beyond a fictional character in twitchells writings or as a thought in someone's mind, beyond a personal belief he exists.
PROVE YOU have ever consciously left the body
PROVE YOU have ever met with a rebazar tarzs or twitchell
Prove it!
Go on.
Prove your case as if you were in a court of law!
Use evidence that would be accepted in one!
YOU CAN'T
YOU GOT NOTHING BUT YOUR OWN DELUSIONS OF GRANDEUR AND NARCISSISM
BUT HEY IF PEOPLE WANT TO BELIEVE IN A PROVEN COMPULSIVE LIAR & A FRAUD, AND TO BELIEVE IN AND SPREAD LIES FOR DECADES NOW IN ORDER TO MANIPULATE OTHER PEOPLE FOR ATTENTION IT'S NOT REALLY MY CONCERN
HAVE AT IT
ROTFLMFAO