Discussion:
Communication, truth and stuff .... kind of related
(too old to reply)
Henosis Sage
2021-07-17 11:34:28 UTC
Permalink
(by someone in climate coms)

This is a re-post from Yale Climate Connections by James Hoggan

In the world of environmental communication, we are learning as we go. For years, we thought facts and outrage changed minds in ways we now know they don’t. We need to explore reliable new ways to speak, listen, and connect in the face of environmental disinformation and polarization.

For that we need ongoing research that helps educate us as it explores and advances the principles of effective science communication and highlights the harms of anti-environmentalism.
[...]

Speaking truth … ‘but not to punish’

Sometimes, according to San Francisco attorney and psychotherapist Bryant Welch, the best strategy is to simply not engage because doing so undercuts the “projective devices that adversaries use to justify their aggression.” If the victim remains silent rather than responding aggressively, it is harder to sustain the aggression, and the perpetrator is left to stew in their own ugliness. We all like to view ourselves as justified in what we say and do. Perpetrators who are denied the self-justification that comes with an angry response are slowed in their aggression.

David Suzuki and I in August 2011 had tea with the renowned Vietnamese monk Thich Nhat Hanh at The University of British Columbia. We were speaking about species extinction when Thich Nhat Hanh said we should bring a spiritual dimension to the work of protecting the environment. “You’re not saying we shouldn’t be activists, are you?” I asked. He looked at me in a quiet, piercing way and said slowly, “Speak the truth, but not to punish.”

I’ve been thinking about this advice ever since. It was one of the most profound moments of this entire journey of research and writing, the seminal moment, because it gathered together the deepest voices and most profound threads of this long book into one elegant sentence.

As I was finishing the book, someone sent me a Public Broadcasting Service special in which Bill Moyers and Harvard’s Marshall Ganz discussed how to achieve political change. Ganz said we should never be afraid of the controversy that arises from speaking the truth. There is nothing wrong with a good fight over injustice. He said he has no time for people who criticize polarization and say, “Let’s just get along better.” He argued that polarization can have positive outcomes.

I was puzzled by this, so I called him. He told me that taking a conciliatory stance in the face of wrongdoing is a strategic and moral mistake that severely compromises what he calls the “adversarial mechanisms” that citizens rely on to bring out the truth. We live in a democracy in which leaders are expected to raise the level of debate in pursuit of the truth. In his view, contention lies at the heart of democracy. Ganz recommended I read Rabbi Hillel, who lived at the time of Jesus and taught that conflict falls into two categories: arguments for the sake of heaven and arguments for the sake of victory. The goal of argument and public debate should not be to crush someone who disagrees with you, but to bring forward the truth. Argument is necessary and people should be encouraged to hold different opinions, to challenge issues, to question motivations and points of view, and to take part in passionate discussion. Paralysis is what’s bad.

Ganz added that many of his students slip into conflict avoidance too often and easily. They have a mistaken idea that if everyone talks things out, everyone will eventually agree and we can all move forward with consensus. But, Ganz argues, the illusion of agreement is for authoritarian regimes. Democracies are made healthier when citizens are free to loudly and actively challenge injustices. He was quick to note that while he believes contention lies at the heart of democracy, it must ultimately be constructive. In an argument for the sake of heaven, Hillel explains that each side listens willingly and seriously to the other’s views and analyzes those points using reason, logic, and respect. Debate used for power rather than truth leads to gridlock.
Diffusing, not exacerbating, polarization

Of the many interviews I conducted for I’m Right and You’re an Idiot, my conversation with the Dalai Lama at the Mind & Life Conference on Ecology, Ethics and Interdependence in Dharamshala stands out. The Dalai Lama believes our destructive emotions are the real troublemakers and that we must learn to deal with them. As the interview ended, the Dalai Lama pointed at my forehead and told me many people think the western mind is more sophisticated. “But in Tibet we operate from the heart and this is very strong. So combine these two, Tibetan heart and Western mind, and then we will have real success. Real success.” We need more warm-heartedness, more compassion. Valuable advice for a public square polluted with unyielding one-sidedness.

Feelings play a powerful role in public discourse. Ganz called it a dialogue of the heart. We participate in emotional dialogue through stories, so we need to be careful about the narratives we create. We want to defuse, not exacerbate polarization. It’s through pluralistic, empathetic narrative that more people will come to care about the right things. Environmental advocates, educators, and scientists need to excel at emotional dialogue. We need to replace narratives that divide us with those that bring us together. That’s how we avoid being drawn into the polarization strategy of propaganda.

Empathy and evidence need to replace disinformation and division. This is a challenge. The science of how to mislead people about science is advanced and muscular. The well-funded propaganda machines fighting environmental regulation know far more about stoking division than environmental scientists know about persuading us to support science-based public policies to protect the environment.

The 70-plus interviews I did for I’m Right and You’re an Idiot convinced me we need to be careful not to be duped into fuelling the polarization that gives propaganda its sting. We need to speak up for what’s right while we self-police and ask ourselves if we are intensifying or defusing polarization.

As George Orwell wrote, “It appears to me, that one defeats the fanatic precisely by not being a fanatic oneself, but on the contrary by using one’s intelligence.”
Etznab
2021-07-17 13:34:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Henosis Sage
(by someone in climate coms)
This is a re-post from Yale Climate Connections by James Hoggan
In the world of environmental communication, we are learning as we go. For years, we thought facts and outrage changed minds in ways we now know they don’t. We need to explore reliable new ways to speak, listen, and connect in the face of environmental disinformation and polarization.
For that we need ongoing research that helps educate us as it explores and advances the principles of effective science communication and highlights the harms of anti-environmentalism.
[...]
Speaking truth … ‘but not to punish’
Sometimes, according to San Francisco attorney and psychotherapist Bryant Welch, the best strategy is to simply not engage because doing so undercuts the “projective devices that adversaries use to justify their aggression.” If the victim remains silent rather than responding aggressively, it is harder to sustain the aggression, and the perpetrator is left to stew in their own ugliness. We all like to view ourselves as justified in what we say and do. Perpetrators who are denied the self-justification that comes with an angry response are slowed in their aggression.
David Suzuki and I in August 2011 had tea with the renowned Vietnamese monk Thich Nhat Hanh at The University of British Columbia. We were speaking about species extinction when Thich Nhat Hanh said we should bring a spiritual dimension to the work of protecting the environment. “You’re not saying we shouldn’t be activists, are you?” I asked. He looked at me in a quiet, piercing way and said slowly, “Speak the truth, but not to punish.”
I’ve been thinking about this advice ever since. It was one of the most profound moments of this entire journey of research and writing, the seminal moment, because it gathered together the deepest voices and most profound threads of this long book into one elegant sentence.
As I was finishing the book, someone sent me a Public Broadcasting Service special in which Bill Moyers and Harvard’s Marshall Ganz discussed how to achieve political change. Ganz said we should never be afraid of the controversy that arises from speaking the truth. There is nothing wrong with a good fight over injustice. He said he has no time for people who criticize polarization and say, “Let’s just get along better.” He argued that polarization can have positive outcomes.
I was puzzled by this, so I called him. He told me that taking a conciliatory stance in the face of wrongdoing is a strategic and moral mistake that severely compromises what he calls the “adversarial mechanisms” that citizens rely on to bring out the truth. We live in a democracy in which leaders are expected to raise the level of debate in pursuit of the truth. In his view, contention lies at the heart of democracy. Ganz recommended I read Rabbi Hillel, who lived at the time of Jesus and taught that conflict falls into two categories: arguments for the sake of heaven and arguments for the sake of victory. The goal of argument and public debate should not be to crush someone who disagrees with you, but to bring forward the truth. Argument is necessary and people should be encouraged to hold different opinions, to challenge issues, to question motivations and points of view, and to take part in passionate discussion. Paralysis is what’s bad.
Ganz added that many of his students slip into conflict avoidance too often and easily. They have a mistaken idea that if everyone talks things out, everyone will eventually agree and we can all move forward with consensus. But, Ganz argues, the illusion of agreement is for authoritarian regimes. Democracies are made healthier when citizens are free to loudly and actively challenge injustices. He was quick to note that while he believes contention lies at the heart of democracy, it must ultimately be constructive. In an argument for the sake of heaven, Hillel explains that each side listens willingly and seriously to the other’s views and analyzes those points using reason, logic, and respect. Debate used for power rather than truth leads to gridlock.
Diffusing, not exacerbating, polarization
Of the many interviews I conducted for I’m Right and You’re an Idiot, my conversation with the Dalai Lama at the Mind & Life Conference on Ecology, Ethics and Interdependence in Dharamshala stands out. The Dalai Lama believes our destructive emotions are the real troublemakers and that we must learn to deal with them. As the interview ended, the Dalai Lama pointed at my forehead and told me many people think the western mind is more sophisticated. “But in Tibet we operate from the heart and this is very strong. So combine these two, Tibetan heart and Western mind, and then we will have real success. Real success.” We need more warm-heartedness, more compassion. Valuable advice for a public square polluted with unyielding one-sidedness.
Feelings play a powerful role in public discourse. Ganz called it a dialogue of the heart. We participate in emotional dialogue through stories, so we need to be careful about the narratives we create. We want to defuse, not exacerbate polarization. It’s through pluralistic, empathetic narrative that more people will come to care about the right things. Environmental advocates, educators, and scientists need to excel at emotional dialogue. We need to replace narratives that divide us with those that bring us together. That’s how we avoid being drawn into the polarization strategy of propaganda.
Empathy and evidence need to replace disinformation and division. This is a challenge. The science of how to mislead people about science is advanced and muscular. The well-funded propaganda machines fighting environmental regulation know far more about stoking division than environmental scientists know about persuading us to support science-based public policies to protect the environment.
The 70-plus interviews I did for I’m Right and You’re an Idiot convinced me we need to be careful not to be duped into fuelling the polarization that gives propaganda its sting. We need to speak up for what’s right while we self-police and ask ourselves if we are intensifying or defusing polarization.
As George Orwell wrote, “It appears to me, that one defeats the fanatic precisely by not being a fanatic oneself, but on the contrary by using one’s intelligence.”
If I could choose but one post to add to the legacy of a.r.e., I think it would be that one. Great job!

I especially liked these quotes.

"[...] We live in a democracy in which leaders are expected to raise the level of debate in pursuit of the truth. [...] Empathy and evidence need to replace disinformation and division. [... .]"

And I see many parallels. If only all Eckists, including the leader and clergy, would take these things to heart. Maybe then truth will become as valuable (or moreso) than a well-written fantasy.
Henosis Sage
2021-07-19 09:16:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Henosis Sage
(by someone in climate coms)
This is a re-post from Yale Climate Connections by James Hoggan
In the world of environmental communication, we are learning as we go. For years, we thought facts and outrage changed minds in ways we now know they don’t. We need to explore reliable new ways to speak, listen, and connect in the face of environmental disinformation and polarization.
For that we need ongoing research that helps educate us as it explores and advances the principles of effective science communication and highlights the harms of anti-environmentalism.
[...]
Speaking truth … ‘but not to punish’
Sometimes, according to San Francisco attorney and psychotherapist Bryant Welch, the best strategy is to simply not engage because doing so undercuts the “projective devices that adversaries use to justify their aggression.” If the victim remains silent rather than responding aggressively, it is harder to sustain the aggression, and the perpetrator is left to stew in their own ugliness. We all like to view ourselves as justified in what we say and do. Perpetrators who are denied the self-justification that comes with an angry response are slowed in their aggression.
David Suzuki and I in August 2011 had tea with the renowned Vietnamese monk Thich Nhat Hanh at The University of British Columbia. We were speaking about species extinction when Thich Nhat Hanh said we should bring a spiritual dimension to the work of protecting the environment. “You’re not saying we shouldn’t be activists, are you?” I asked. He looked at me in a quiet, piercing way and said slowly, “Speak the truth, but not to punish.”
I’ve been thinking about this advice ever since. It was one of the most profound moments of this entire journey of research and writing, the seminal moment, because it gathered together the deepest voices and most profound threads of this long book into one elegant sentence.
As I was finishing the book, someone sent me a Public Broadcasting Service special in which Bill Moyers and Harvard’s Marshall Ganz discussed how to achieve political change. Ganz said we should never be afraid of the controversy that arises from speaking the truth. There is nothing wrong with a good fight over injustice. He said he has no time for people who criticize polarization and say, “Let’s just get along better.” He argued that polarization can have positive outcomes.
I was puzzled by this, so I called him. He told me that taking a conciliatory stance in the face of wrongdoing is a strategic and moral mistake that severely compromises what he calls the “adversarial mechanisms” that citizens rely on to bring out the truth. We live in a democracy in which leaders are expected to raise the level of debate in pursuit of the truth. In his view, contention lies at the heart of democracy. Ganz recommended I read Rabbi Hillel, who lived at the time of Jesus and taught that conflict falls into two categories: arguments for the sake of heaven and arguments for the sake of victory. The goal of argument and public debate should not be to crush someone who disagrees with you, but to bring forward the truth. Argument is necessary and people should be encouraged to hold different opinions, to challenge issues, to question motivations and points of view, and to take part in passionate discussion. Paralysis is what’s bad.
Ganz added that many of his students slip into conflict avoidance too often and easily. They have a mistaken idea that if everyone talks things out, everyone will eventually agree and we can all move forward with consensus. But, Ganz argues, the illusion of agreement is for authoritarian regimes. Democracies are made healthier when citizens are free to loudly and actively challenge injustices. He was quick to note that while he believes contention lies at the heart of democracy, it must ultimately be constructive. In an argument for the sake of heaven, Hillel explains that each side listens willingly and seriously to the other’s views and analyzes those points using reason, logic, and respect. Debate used for power rather than truth leads to gridlock.
Diffusing, not exacerbating, polarization
Of the many interviews I conducted for I’m Right and You’re an Idiot, my conversation with the Dalai Lama at the Mind & Life Conference on Ecology, Ethics and Interdependence in Dharamshala stands out. The Dalai Lama believes our destructive emotions are the real troublemakers and that we must learn to deal with them. As the interview ended, the Dalai Lama pointed at my forehead and told me many people think the western mind is more sophisticated. “But in Tibet we operate from the heart and this is very strong. So combine these two, Tibetan heart and Western mind, and then we will have real success. Real success.” We need more warm-heartedness, more compassion. Valuable advice for a public square polluted with unyielding one-sidedness.
Feelings play a powerful role in public discourse. Ganz called it a dialogue of the heart. We participate in emotional dialogue through stories, so we need to be careful about the narratives we create. We want to defuse, not exacerbate polarization. It’s through pluralistic, empathetic narrative that more people will come to care about the right things. Environmental advocates, educators, and scientists need to excel at emotional dialogue. We need to replace narratives that divide us with those that bring us together. That’s how we avoid being drawn into the polarization strategy of propaganda.
Empathy and evidence need to replace disinformation and division. This is a challenge. The science of how to mislead people about science is advanced and muscular. The well-funded propaganda machines fighting environmental regulation know far more about stoking division than environmental scientists know about persuading us to support science-based public policies to protect the environment.
The 70-plus interviews I did for I’m Right and You’re an Idiot convinced me we need to be careful not to be duped into fuelling the polarization that gives propaganda its sting. We need to speak up for what’s right while we self-police and ask ourselves if we are intensifying or defusing polarization.
As George Orwell wrote, “It appears to me, that one defeats the fanatic precisely by not being a fanatic oneself, but on the contrary by using one’s intelligence.”
If I could choose but one post to add to the legacy of a.r.e., I think it would be that one. Great job!
I especially liked these quotes.
"[...] We live in a democracy in which leaders are expected to raise the level of debate in pursuit of the truth. [...] Empathy and evidence need to replace disinformation and division. [... .]"
And I see many parallels. If only all Eckists, including the leader and clergy, would take these things to heart. Maybe then truth will become as valuable (or moreso) than a well-written fantasy.
Thanks for that, so the relevance was fairly clear?


‘It’s chilling what is happening’: a rightwing backlash to Biden takes root in Republican states

eg
For Jacob Hacker, a political scientist at Yale, the attack on elections and the very machinery of democracy sets the current Republican fury apart. “This is different. Republicans at state level have moved from pursuing conservative economic policies to pushing measures designed to cripple the opposition and undermine democracy.”

Hacker added: “The Republican party used to be anti-Democratic, now it’s anti-democratic.”

The rocket fuel propelling the emergence of a fundamentally anti-democratic strain in Republican politics is Trump and his big lie that the election was stolen from him. The defeated president continues to peddle the falsehood, inciting his supporters with the potent belief that the current occupant of the White House is an impostor.
Either you believe, or pretend to believe, that Trump won the election, or you will be destroyed. Jacob Hacker
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/jul/19/joe-biden-republicans-polarization-us-politics-texas

sure TG newspaper is left leaning, still, check out some of the things reported in the Atlantic and other links in that article. Being more and more extreme is now the norm, the ordinary.

I was reading some thing about saturn-uranus squares in 2021, and the pluto major transits the last few years. Now there's covid19 dramas, and climate change challenges all round, and loads of other stuff going on. The news laws being passed in repub states though is scary stuff. 'While nothing is perfect here, I am so glad I am not there.

and looking back over 20 years on and off a.r.e. here this quote you emphasied is very telling now (in hindsight)

"... raise the level of debate in pursuit of the truth. "

and now we are here? Wow. shaking my head in disbelief and surprise. I always felt I was doing something useful here, over time, and the many topics I raised here, be it israel or climate change, or eckankar history and the media/politcs, war etc... , in the pursuit of truth (and justice and decency) and life. How did we get here, today. seems very strange weird and unexpected. and dare I say it, depressing and disappointing overall. Maybe I;m not looking at it right yet, but it sure feels like such a waste of time and effort.

Oh well, William the Silent(?!), of the Netherlands who said something like “It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere.”

???

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