"The Whole Truth To Me"

Discussion:

(too old to reply)

Etznab

2021-05-28 12:12:04 UTC

"[...] Well, I bought this book, "The Whole Truth" by Doug Marman and having only gotten it last week, found patches here and there reading through that didn't gel with things the book was publicized as: as a book that would be a blessing in some way to clearing many things up. It would have been that had he stuck just with the David Lane collections. But the book didn't, it began to make sweeping explanations over the Eckankar fallout that did not fit what we actually know of what happened. The dirty laundry and in fighting of the fallout is very serious. It is publicized everywhere. Things will not ever be able to be seen or respected ever again the same way they were. It was an absolute death of whatever was real and trusted.

"[...] Written across the front of your book should have been 'The Whole
Truth To Me' with a truthful picture of yourself somewhere to be respectful to Paul. That is what the essence of the book is. It cannot be presented as a fact-based production (The Whole Truth), there are contradictions in the author's personal claims on its contents.

"[...] And, as Doug Marman says about Eckankar 'being turned into a religion foundation by Harold Klemp,' that 'it was probably just time for something like that to happen. . .' Well, time and tide does in fact lead to many things as the existence of 'life' continues, but in his comments 'it was probably just time', that information is spiritually wrong and insensible on so many natural levels. That is not true. You can't take something that went so wrong and say that. It is like saying because the holocaust killed so many, it was just time. It is not lost that WHATEVER happened, it was very unconscionably selfishly
done. It hurt some of us terribly, unbelievably deeply in so many ways. You would not believe what it did. It is terrible. If someone can't see that, they have some more investigation to do on what that fallout has done. [... .]"

https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/9pqDK6wlQB0/m/-3WRZv-EJGMJ

Etznab

2021-05-28 12:16:26 UTC

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Post by Etznab
"[...] Well, I bought this book, "The Whole Truth" by Doug Marman and having only gotten it last week, found patches here and there reading through that didn't gel with things the book was publicized as: as a book that would be a blessing in some way to clearing many things up. It would have been that had he stuck just with the David Lane collections. But the book didn't, it began to make sweeping explanations over the Eckankar fallout that did not fit what we actually know of what happened. The dirty laundry and in fighting of the fallout is very serious. It is publicized everywhere. Things will not ever be able to be seen or respected ever again the same way they were. It was an absolute death of whatever was real and trusted.
"[...] Written across the front of your book should have been 'The Whole
Truth To Me' with a truthful picture of yourself somewhere to be respectful to Paul. That is what the essence of the book is. It cannot be presented as a fact-based production (The Whole Truth), there are contradictions in the author's personal claims on its contents.
"[...] And, as Doug Marman says about Eckankar 'being turned into a religion foundation by Harold Klemp,' that 'it was probably just time for something like that to happen. . .' Well, time and tide does in fact lead to many things as the existence of 'life' continues, but in his comments 'it was probably just time', that information is spiritually wrong and insensible on so many natural levels. That is not true. You can't take something that went so wrong and say that. It is like saying because the holocaust killed so many, it was just time. It is not lost that WHATEVER happened, it was very unconscionably selfishly
done. It hurt some of us terribly, unbelievably deeply in so many ways. You would not believe what it did. It is terrible. If someone can't see that, they have some more investigation to do on what that fallout has done. [... .]"
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/9pqDK6wlQB0/m/-3WRZv-EJGMJ

" It was an absolute death of whatever was real and trusted."

Death of an ideal perhaps? If even an imaginary ideal.

Now what? Defend the "imaginary ideal" as Doug and so many others have done? As so many other converts from so many other religions have done?

How about defending the truth? And the whole truth? And nothing but? Probably is time for that :)

Henosis Sage

2021-05-29 06:46:58 UTC

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Post by Etznab

" It was an absolute death of whatever was real and trusted."
Death of an ideal perhaps? If even an imaginary ideal.
Now what? Defend the "imaginary ideal" as Doug and so many others have done? As so many other converts from so many other religions have done?
How about defending the truth? And the whole truth? And nothing but? Probably is time for that :)

edit ...'it was probably just NOT the time for something like that to happen. . .' <g>

fwiw I dont recall this thread. 'It's good to see how little I knew at the time. In hindsight i know why that is so.

I think the long comments by the chap quoted above is really *telling* .... in hindsight, and it's no wonder I didn't see it or understand his pov at the time.

as to JerryCs comments aka EXCUSES vapid EXPLANATIONS ..... Those are of the kind that I find the most disturbing [ and dangerous and ludicrous ] next to Marman's and Klemps and a few others.

at the time, I stupidly assumed he 'knew' something I didn't. He didn't. He was a bigger fool than I all the time.

But as they say ... shit happens. (shrug)

Henosis Sage

2021-05-29 07:27:39 UTC

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Post by Etznab

" It was an absolute death of whatever was real and trusted."
Death of an ideal perhaps? If even an imaginary ideal.
Now what? Defend the "imaginary ideal" as Doug and so many others have done? As so many other converts from so many other religions have done?
How about defending the truth? And the whole truth? And nothing but? Probably is time for that :)

edit ...'it was probably just NOT the time for something like that to happen. . .' <g>
fwiw I dont recall this thread. 'It's good to see how little I knew at the time. In hindsight i know why that is so.
I think the long comments by the chap quoted above is really *telling* .... in hindsight, and it's no wonder I didn't see it or understand his pov at the time.
as to JerryCs comments aka EXCUSES vapid EXPLANATIONS ..... Those are of the kind that I find the most disturbing [ and dangerous and ludicrous ] next to Marman's and Klemps and a few others.
at the time, I stupidly assumed he 'knew' something I didn't. He didn't. He was a bigger fool than I all the time.
But as they say ... shit happens. (shrug)

ref fwiw ,,,,

In Australia, she convinced a Perth family she was a Russian gymnast named Emily whose entire family had been killed in a murder-suicide in France. In Sydney she passed herself off as a schoolgirl more than half her age.

Azzopardi has criminal convictions for dishonesty offences in Queensland, Western Australia and New South Wales, as well as for commonwealth offences.

Experts told the court Azzopardi had experienced a highly traumatic upbringing including emotional neglect and physical abuse. Psychiatrist Jacqueline Rakov assessed her this year and found she had a severe personality disorder and pseudologia fantastica, a “rare but dramatic” psychiatric disorder involving an “extreme type of lying”.

Rakov found Azzopardi was at high risk of reoffending if left to her own devices, but low risk if she willingly engaged in long-term and ongoing therapy.

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2021/may/29/disturbed-au-pair-who-created-false-identities-given-two-years-jail-in-victoria

remind you of anyone?

Etznab

2021-05-31 12:44:51 UTC

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Post by Etznab

" It was an absolute death of whatever was real and trusted."
Death of an ideal perhaps? If even an imaginary ideal.
Now what? Defend the "imaginary ideal" as Doug and so many others have done? As so many other converts from so many other religions have done?
How about defending the truth? And the whole truth? And nothing but? Probably is time for that :)

Was contemplating the mindset of an individual, or individuals who knowingly make / made up false information to sell a spiritual teaching / religion. And trying to imagine the justification in their minds for doing those things.

Paul Twitchell, for example. His Rebazar Tarzs and other questionable statements. It was explained long ago that Paul simply changed names for his sources; from Premananda and Kirpal Singh to others, etc. I think Doug Marman's lame rationalization was as if Eckankar had to do this to stand on its own feet, so to speak.

However, it's not just Paul that I wonder about. It's everybody else who knew / knows that Paul had made things up and people who also try to justify the acts. Marman piped that people can't necessarily know what were Paul Twitchell's intentions / motivations. Lane thought that money was part of it. Bluth suggested that a young woman, Gail, was a part of it; part of the motivations for why Paul did what he did.

If one looks upon Paul as a God, then I think there is a natural tendency to defend that ideal image. However, Harold Klemp tried to shatter that image with his 1980s talks, including stages for death of an ideal. Yet it's not just Paul. There are other ideals woven into the mix, including eck masters wisdom temples, spiritual hierarchy, etc, etc.

Did Paul Twitchell conjure up an ideal spiritual path? Even if he had to stretch the truth to do it? As I understand it, this was a fad in the 1960s. Still, I'm still trying to imagine the mind state of people who did / do this; and I wouldn't discount money as one possible motive.

I like a lot of the writings, the group and people. IOW I like a lot of the things Eckankar. However, I do think it time to disembark from the "magical mystery tour" facets and become grounded in actual historical facts about Eckankar. The main reason being that a myriad of mutations are possible for any factual truth after people's imaginations get to work at changing it; for whatever purposes. And instead of some special mutation I have been trying to emphasize the plain truth. It will show up naturally after removing all of the bunk first. This latter thing though is the great obstacle as people refuse to surrender their personal imaginary ideals and delusions. I think we have seen these so-called defenders of the Sugmad, or riders for the eck brand right here at a.r.e. over the years. They are still running amuck today, and if you wait long enough you just might get to see one of these clowns and their latest circus trick.

Etznab

2021-05-31 12:55:15 UTC

Permalink

Post by Etznab

" It was an absolute death of whatever was real and trusted."
Death of an ideal perhaps? If even an imaginary ideal.
Now what? Defend the "imaginary ideal" as Doug and so many others have done? As so many other converts from so many other religions have done?
How about defending the truth? And the whole truth? And nothing but? Probably is time for that :)

Was contemplating the mindset of an individual, or individuals who knowingly make / made up false information to sell a spiritual teaching / religion. And trying to imagine the justification in their minds for doing those things.
Paul Twitchell, for example. His Rebazar Tarzs and other questionable statements. It was explained long ago that Paul simply changed names for his sources; from Premananda and Kirpal Singh to others, etc. I think Doug Marman's lame rationalization was as if Eckankar had to do this to stand on its own feet, so to speak.
However, it's not just Paul that I wonder about. It's everybody else who knew / knows that Paul had made things up and people who also try to justify the acts. Marman piped that people can't necessarily know what were Paul Twitchell's intentions / motivations. Lane thought that money was part of it. Bluth suggested that a young woman, Gail, was a part of it; part of the motivations for why Paul did what he did.
If one looks upon Paul as a God, then I think there is a natural tendency to defend that ideal image. However, Harold Klemp tried to shatter that image with his 1980s talks, including stages for death of an ideal. Yet it's not just Paul. There are other ideals woven into the mix, including eck masters wisdom temples, spiritual hierarchy, etc, etc.
Did Paul Twitchell conjure up an ideal spiritual path? Even if he had to stretch the truth to do it? As I understand it, this was a fad in the 1960s. Still, I'm still trying to imagine the mind state of people who did / do this; and I wouldn't discount money as one possible motive.
I like a lot of the writings, the group and people. IOW I like a lot of the things Eckankar. However, I do think it time to disembark from the "magical mystery tour" facets and become grounded in actual historical facts about Eckankar. The main reason being that a myriad of mutations are possible for any factual truth after people's imaginations get to work at changing it; for whatever purposes. And instead of some special mutation I have been trying to emphasize the plain truth. It will show up naturally after removing all of the bunk first. This latter thing though is the great obstacle as people refuse to surrender their personal imaginary ideals and delusions. I think we have seen these so-called defenders of the Sugmad, or riders for the eck brand right here at a.r.e. over the years. They are still running amuck today, and if you wait long enough you just might get to see one of these clowns and their latest circus trick.

I also think some people go off the deep end a little, tottering between fact and fiction. IOW, in their attempts to desperately have the plain truth when the clergy won't give it, they make up their own in the form of demons. The Duane gang have their tap-lining aliens, etc. Others have some other dark sinister Darth Vader-like forces; maybe like what haunted Harold Klemp in the psychiatric ward many years ago. But are fictional superheros to fight fictional boogeymen (and women) the way to go? Does the world need a posse of fictional spiritual master avatars and avengers to go after the "shadows" of ungrounded, insincere religions?

Alexi Grahame

2021-06-05 16:48:47 UTC

Permalink

Post by Etznab

" It was an absolute death of whatever was real and trusted."
Death of an ideal perhaps? If even an imaginary ideal.
Now what? Defend the "imaginary ideal" as Doug and so many others have done? As so many other converts from so many other religions have done?
How about defending the truth? And the whole truth? And nothing but? Probably is time for that :)

Was contemplating the mindset of an individual, or individuals who knowingly make / made up false information to sell a spiritual teaching / religion. And trying to imagine the justification in their minds for doing those things.
Paul Twitchell, for example. His Rebazar Tarzs and other questionable statements. It was explained long ago that Paul simply changed names for his sources; from Premananda and Kirpal Singh to others, etc. I think Doug Marman's lame rationalization was as if Eckankar had to do this to stand on its own feet, so to speak.
However, it's not just Paul that I wonder about. It's everybody else who knew / knows that Paul had made things up and people who also try to justify the acts. Marman piped that people can't necessarily know what were Paul Twitchell's intentions / motivations. Lane thought that money was part of it. Bluth suggested that a young woman, Gail, was a part of it; part of the motivations for why Paul did what he did.
If one looks upon Paul as a God, then I think there is a natural tendency to defend that ideal image. However, Harold Klemp tried to shatter that image with his 1980s talks, including stages for death of an ideal. Yet it's not just Paul. There are other ideals woven into the mix, including eck masters wisdom temples, spiritual hierarchy, etc, etc.
Did Paul Twitchell conjure up an ideal spiritual path? Even if he had to stretch the truth to do it? As I understand it, this was a fad in the 1960s. Still, I'm still trying to imagine the mind state of people who did / do this; and I wouldn't discount money as one possible motive.
I like a lot of the writings, the group and people. IOW I like a lot of the things Eckankar. However, I do think it time to disembark from the "magical mystery tour" facets and become grounded in actual historical facts about Eckankar. The main reason being that a myriad of mutations are possible for any factual truth after people's imaginations get to work at changing it; for whatever purposes. And instead of some special mutation I have been trying to emphasize the plain truth. It will show up naturally after removing all of the bunk first. This latter thing though is the great obstacle as people refuse to surrender their personal imaginary ideals and delusions. I think we have seen these so-called defenders of the Sugmad, or riders for the eck brand right here at a.r.e. over the years. They are still running amuck today, and if you wait long enough you just might get to see one of these clowns and their latest circus trick.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The only smear in the mirror is YOU, D. Richard Devoli. (aka Etznab)

Paul Twitchell covered your parochial smear quite reasonably in The Flute of God.

Have you read it? Did you read it more than once if you sincerely believe you comprehend Paul Twitchell?

Please, no more gibberish.

CJ

Henosis Sage

2021-06-06 11:19:27 UTC

Permalink

Post by Etznab

" It was an absolute death of whatever was real and trusted."
Death of an ideal perhaps? If even an imaginary ideal.
Now what? Defend the "imaginary ideal" as Doug and so many others have done? As so many other converts from so many other religions have done?
How about defending the truth? And the whole truth? And nothing but? Probably is time for that :)

Was contemplating the mindset of an individual, or individuals who knowingly make / made up false information to sell a spiritual teaching / religion. And trying to imagine the justification in their minds for doing those things.
Paul Twitchell, for example. His Rebazar Tarzs and other questionable statements. It was explained long ago that Paul simply changed names for his sources; from Premananda and Kirpal Singh to others, etc. I think Doug Marman's lame rationalization was as if Eckankar had to do this to stand on its own feet, so to speak.
However, it's not just Paul that I wonder about. It's everybody else who knew / knows that Paul had made things up and people who also try to justify the acts. Marman piped that people can't necessarily know what were Paul Twitchell's intentions / motivations. Lane thought that money was part of it. Bluth suggested that a young woman, Gail, was a part of it; part of the motivations for why Paul did what he did.
If one looks upon Paul as a God, then I think there is a natural tendency to defend that ideal image. However, Harold Klemp tried to shatter that image with his 1980s talks, including stages for death of an ideal. Yet it's not just Paul. There are other ideals woven into the mix, including eck masters wisdom temples, spiritual hierarchy, etc, etc.
Did Paul Twitchell conjure up an ideal spiritual path? Even if he had to stretch the truth to do it? As I understand it, this was a fad in the 1960s. Still, I'm still trying to imagine the mind state of people who did / do this; and I wouldn't discount money as one possible motive.
I like a lot of the writings, the group and people. IOW I like a lot of the things Eckankar. However, I do think it time to disembark from the "magical mystery tour" facets and become grounded in actual historical facts about Eckankar. The main reason being that a myriad of mutations are possible for any factual truth after people's imaginations get to work at changing it; for whatever purposes. And instead of some special mutation I have been trying to emphasize the plain truth. It will show up naturally after removing all of the bunk first. This latter thing though is the great obstacle as people refuse to surrender their personal imaginary ideals and delusions. I think we have seen these so-called defenders of the Sugmad, or riders for the eck brand right here at a.r.e. over the years. They are still running amuck today, and if you wait long enough you just might get to see one of these clowns and their latest circus trick.

yes, all good points. I like the quotes from that guy back in 2008. "the whole truth to me"... by D.M.

i thought it interesting how Jerry C replied. in that thread.
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/9pqDK6wlQB0/m/-3WRZv-EJGMJ

another thread i dont remember. and i think went right over my head at the time.

good past comments worth sharing today. good stuff Etz.

and yes people do go off the deep end.

curious how Jprdan Petersen mentions that very thing [ i quote some of what he says in the Bible video] . having one's äxioms"pushed.

ok take care.