Reincarnation & Karma

[Etznab]

Anybody thought about going back to the beginning and looking at how these beliefs formed? Looking at the different stories around them?

Action and reaction seems pretty straightforward for an explanation of karma. It can be observed by science and laws of physics. At it's basic foundation it seems to make sense to me. However, when beliefs come in about people reincarnating as animals and bugs I think that sounds bizarre. Also the idea of a God, or beings who decide what happens to a soul after death.

So may Jewish people and others died in the Holocaust. Since the most of the victims were Jewish, does that mean some Jewish people did something so evil as to condemn the whole race?

So it seems that actions and reactions do correlate in certain respects, but the explanations often grow into bizarre explanations.

There was a book by a well-known Jewish author that suggested the six million Jews gave their lives willingly as if to teach the human race that evil people exist! O.K. I better give a reference here.

Begin quotes ...

Tom speaks of the Holocaust, in which 6 million Jews were exterminated by Hitler, with huge sorrow, yet claims it was an act of self-sacrifice and salvation:

The greatest portion of these six million came at that time to sacrifice self, to make your planet earth aware that there were those who would attempt to rule and control humanity.

Tom also explained that the atrocity of the Holocaust was necessary for the creation of the state of Israel, an important part of the plan for Earth. Essentially the victims chose to be incarnated at this time and place and to be victims of the Holocaust as a selfless act of sacrifice to make us all aware that evil people existed...

... end quotes

https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/7P8_T3oU0bM/m/GYRYechFBQAJ

I could be wrong, but I believe some of this information is found in a book called The Keys of Enoch, by James Hurtak.

https://www.egyptinitiation.com/james-j-hurtak

So this guy explains reincarnation and karma based on a channeled being called Tom? Spokesperson for the Council of Nine? Can't say I agree with his explanations.

In any case, I know it's hard to trace history back beyond a certain point, but if there is time I will try to do some research on the history and the evolution karma and reincarnation ideas. Not to specifically look for the most popular beliefs, but more so to isolate the actual historical truth based on true events. This is not about whether karma and reincarnation are real, or exist. It's about discovering how the beliefs began and what they were based on.

[Etznab]

Post by Etznab
Anybody thought about going back to the beginning and looking at how these beliefs formed? Looking at the different stories around them?
Action and reaction seems pretty straightforward for an explanation of karma. It can be observed by science and laws of physics. At it's basic foundation it seems to make sense to me. However, when beliefs come in about people reincarnating as animals and bugs I think that sounds bizarre. Also the idea of a God, or beings who decide what happens to a soul after death.
So may Jewish people and others died in the Holocaust. Since the most of the victims were Jewish, does that mean some Jewish people did something so evil as to condemn the whole race?
So it seems that actions and reactions do correlate in certain respects, but the explanations often grow into bizarre explanations.
There was a book by a well-known Jewish author that suggested the six million Jews gave their lives willingly as if to teach the human race that evil people exist! O.K. I better give a reference here.
Begin quotes ...
The greatest portion of these six million came at that time to sacrifice self, to make your planet earth aware that there were those who would attempt to rule and control humanity.
Tom also explained that the atrocity of the Holocaust was necessary for the creation of the state of Israel, an important part of the plan for Earth. Essentially the victims chose to be incarnated at this time and place and to be victims of the Holocaust as a selfless act of sacrifice to make us all aware that evil people existed...
... end quotes
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/7P8_T3oU0bM/m/GYRYechFBQAJ
I could be wrong, but I believe some of this information is found in a book called The Keys of Enoch, by James Hurtak.
https://www.egyptinitiation.com/james-j-hurtak
So this guy explains reincarnation and karma based on a channeled being called Tom? Spokesperson for the Council of Nine? Can't say I agree with his explanations.
In any case, I know it's hard to trace history back beyond a certain point, but if there is time I will try to do some research on the history and the evolution karma and reincarnation ideas. Not to specifically look for the most popular beliefs, but more so to isolate the actual historical truth based on true events. This is not about whether karma and reincarnation are real, or exist. It's about discovering how the beliefs began and what they were based on.

Wiki mentions middle of the 1st Millenium B.C. Not sure how true.

"The idea of reincarnation, saṃsāra, did not exist in the early Vedic religions.[32][33] The idea of reincarnation has roots in the Upanishads of the late Vedic period (c. 1100 – c. 500 BCE), predating the Buddha and the Mahavira.[34][35] The concepts of the cycle of birth and death, samsara, and liberation partly derive from ascetic traditions that arose in India around the middle of the 1st millennium BCE.[36] Though no direct evidence of this has been found, the tribes of the Ganges valley or the Dravidian traditions of South India have been proposed as another early source of reincarnation beliefs.[37]

"The early Vedas do not mention the doctrine of Karma and rebirth but mention the belief in an afterlife.[38][3][39][40] It is in the early Upanishads, which are pre-Buddha and pre-Mahavira, where these ideas are developed and described in a general way.[38][41][42] Detailed descriptions first appear around the mid-1st millennium BCE in diverse traditions, including Buddhism, Jainism and various schools of Hindu philosophy, each of which gave unique expression to the general principle.[3]"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reincarnation

Under the section Rationale:

"The earliest layers of Vedic text incorporate the concept of life, followed by an afterlife in heaven and hell based on cumulative virtues (merit) or vices (demerit).[61] However, the ancient Vedic Rishis challenged this idea of afterlife as simplistic, because people do not live equally moral or immoral lives. Between generally virtuous lives, some are more virtuous; while evil too has degrees, and the texts assert that it would be unfair for people, with varying degrees of virtue or vices, to end up in heaven or hell, in "either or" and disproportionate manner irrespective of how virtuous or vicious their lives were.[62][63][64] They introduced the idea of an afterlife in heaven or hell in proportion to one's merit.[65][66][67]"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reincarnation

Ideas of Heaven and Hell are not unique to India, IMHO. Neither beliefs that good people have a good afterlife and bad people a not-so-good one; at least temporarily, or after a purgatory, etc. So all in all, I'm not sure how much Wiki actually contributes except for a time frame, which might be helpful to look at. Will have to check on that.

[Etznab]

Post by Etznab

Post by Etznab
Anybody thought about going back to the beginning and looking at how these beliefs formed? Looking at the different stories around them?
Action and reaction seems pretty straightforward for an explanation of karma. It can be observed by science and laws of physics. At it's basic foundation it seems to make sense to me. However, when beliefs come in about people reincarnating as animals and bugs I think that sounds bizarre. Also the idea of a God, or beings who decide what happens to a soul after death.
So may Jewish people and others died in the Holocaust. Since the most of the victims were Jewish, does that mean some Jewish people did something so evil as to condemn the whole race?
So it seems that actions and reactions do correlate in certain respects, but the explanations often grow into bizarre explanations.
There was a book by a well-known Jewish author that suggested the six million Jews gave their lives willingly as if to teach the human race that evil people exist! O.K. I better give a reference here.
Begin quotes ...
The greatest portion of these six million came at that time to sacrifice self, to make your planet earth aware that there were those who would attempt to rule and control humanity.
Tom also explained that the atrocity of the Holocaust was necessary for the creation of the state of Israel, an important part of the plan for Earth. Essentially the victims chose to be incarnated at this time and place and to be victims of the Holocaust as a selfless act of sacrifice to make us all aware that evil people existed...
... end quotes
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/7P8_T3oU0bM/m/GYRYechFBQAJ
I could be wrong, but I believe some of this information is found in a book called The Keys of Enoch, by James Hurtak.
https://www.egyptinitiation.com/james-j-hurtak
So this guy explains reincarnation and karma based on a channeled being called Tom? Spokesperson for the Council of Nine? Can't say I agree with his explanations.
In any case, I know it's hard to trace history back beyond a certain point, but if there is time I will try to do some research on the history and the evolution karma and reincarnation ideas. Not to specifically look for the most popular beliefs, but more so to isolate the actual historical truth based on true events. This is not about whether karma and reincarnation are real, or exist. It's about discovering how the beliefs began and what they were based on.

Wiki mentions middle of the 1st Millenium B.C. Not sure how true.
"The idea of reincarnation, saṃsāra, did not exist in the early Vedic religions.[32][33] The idea of reincarnation has roots in the Upanishads of the late Vedic period (c. 1100 – c. 500 BCE), predating the Buddha and the Mahavira.[34][35] The concepts of the cycle of birth and death, samsara, and liberation partly derive from ascetic traditions that arose in India around the middle of the 1st millennium BCE.[36] Though no direct evidence of this has been found, the tribes of the Ganges valley or the Dravidian traditions of South India have been proposed as another early source of reincarnation beliefs.[37]
"The early Vedas do not mention the doctrine of Karma and rebirth but mention the belief in an afterlife.[38][3][39][40] It is in the early Upanishads, which are pre-Buddha and pre-Mahavira, where these ideas are developed and described in a general way.[38][41][42] Detailed descriptions first appear around the mid-1st millennium BCE in diverse traditions, including Buddhism, Jainism and various schools of Hindu philosophy, each of which gave unique expression to the general principle.[3]"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reincarnation
"The earliest layers of Vedic text incorporate the concept of life, followed by an afterlife in heaven and hell based on cumulative virtues (merit) or vices (demerit).[61] However, the ancient Vedic Rishis challenged this idea of afterlife as simplistic, because people do not live equally moral or immoral lives. Between generally virtuous lives, some are more virtuous; while evil too has degrees, and the texts assert that it would be unfair for people, with varying degrees of virtue or vices, to end up in heaven or hell, in "either or" and disproportionate manner irrespective of how virtuous or vicious their lives were.[62][63][64] They introduced the idea of an afterlife in heaven or hell in proportion to one's merit.[65][66][67]"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reincarnation
Ideas of Heaven and Hell are not unique to India, IMHO. Neither beliefs that good people have a good afterlife and bad people a not-so-good one; at least temporarily, or after a purgatory, etc. So all in all, I'm not sure how much Wiki actually contributes except for a time frame, which might be helpful to look at. Will have to check on that.

Just looking over the available history.

"[...] The teachings attributed to Yajnavalkya include many that are representative of the break with earlier Vedic ritualism and are distinctive to the new worldview of the Upanishads. They include the first exposition in Sanskrit literature of the doctrine of karma and rebirth, which contends that the individual’s future destiny is determined in accordance with one’s past “knowledge and action” [... .]"

https://www.britannica.com/biography/Yajnavalkya