The Problem Today

[Etznab]

People reacting in fear to liars instead of counteracting the lies and those who tell them.

IMHO.

Whether it's a boss, politician or preacher, media giant, or just plain "leader of the pack" who controls a majority, fear can cause a person to react in ways that avoid the problem. The lying narcissists.

Many have frequented a.r.e. in the past, many more than today. People jealous of truth (a liar's arch enemy) and who couldn't "handle" it.

Not so much liars in a.r.e. today though. And why? Because people challenged the lies and the liars. The liars have less ground on which to stand if not grounded in the truth.

"Eckankar" is no exception when it comes to actual, historical, events-that-really-happened truth vs. fabulous, imaginary pseudo event fictions.

Insane, dangerous and mentally unstable individuals perhaps suffer most after confusing fiction with fact. IMO the solution is to face the problem of misinformation supported by pseudo history / religion by targeting the dark forces.

"Saints, devils and credulous fools are made of the same identical stuff. They all have vision. They see the same truth from different aspects. Devils exploit stupidity. They create blinding fear that gives them power over others. It inflates the devils' feeling of importance; and it makes the fools think the devils are the only safe leaders to follow. But the vision of saints acts, by its own nature -- to use a feeble illustration -- like a prism letting light into the darkness. It diffuses the material fog -- the fog that blinds the best of us and makes us victims of want, and disease and crime. The vision of saints lets in affluence and magnanimity and vigor. Naturally, the devils hate it. If they can't pervert saints' vision to their own ends, they try to destroy it."

[Based on: Old Ugly Face, by Talbot Mundy (1940), p. 16]

https://web.archive.org/web/20110424123922/http://arthursclassicnovels.com/mundy/ugfa10.html

Rebazar Tarzs smiled. "Saints, devils and credulous fools are made of the same identical stuff. They all have vision. They see the same truth from different aspects. Devils exploit stupidity. They create blinding fear that gives them power over others, inflates the devils' feelings of importance, and makes the fools think the devils are the only safe leaders to follow. But, to use a feeble illustration, the vision of saints acts like a prism, letting Light into the darkness. It diffuses the material fog that blinds the best of men and makes them victims of want, disease and crime. The vision of saints lets in affluence, magnanimity, and vigor. Naturally, the devils hate it. If they cannot pervert the saints' vision to their own end, they try to destroy it."

[Based on Rebazar Tarzs in: The Key to Eckankar, by Paul Twitchell (1968), bottom paragraph on p. 14 (of the book).]

Letting light into the darkness. I'll say. Light a little light on Rebazar Tarzs and plagiarism!

Now I've been demonized in so many ways by trolls and others in a.r.e. for years. Just like people generally are demonized by lying narcissists.

I think "we" (people in general) don't have to take it. Not from anybody. And that "we" (people in general) are not the problem for sharing truth over fiction. Not a problem for letting "light" into the "darkness". Rather, perhaps the problem is individual fear and passivity about the darkness of mixing fiction with fact?

For the purpose of a.r.e., if Eckankar (the religion) appears to advance pseudo history over actual history, individuals can look at that and the reasons, the causes for that. In order to become a non-profit religion, Eckankar had to answer certain questions perhaps. had to fill out certain forms in order to qualify.

Who is the leader of Eckankar? Who was the leader before them? And before them? Etc.? These are questions that serve to define a religious teaching, or a religion. And whether any of such questions figured into the qualification of Eckankar as a non-profit religion, Why did the founder reportedly say: "THEY'LL BE SORRY." [my large caps)

Keyword search "got it all wrong"

"[...] Now, a lot of the impressions that I first set out in my first work, I'm
having to go back and redo these things and try to correct them.

"And I'm like the fellow who felt his way along in a college course and they
told him he had to write a book in order to keep in the work, and he didn't
know what to say and he had to go, and he had to do something, and when he did, he got it all wrong. [... .]"

https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/OQLAnwV6XOY/m/G72JUGZ_7S8J

I've seen that quote a lot of times over the years and this time I see it a little differently. Especially since they were some of his last words before he died. That is, I wonder now if he was of the mind to "DO SOMETHING" but never got the chance.

[Etznab]

Post by Etznab
People reacting in fear to liars instead of counteracting the lies and those who tell them.
IMHO.
Whether it's a boss, politician or preacher, media giant, or just plain "leader of the pack" who controls a majority, fear can cause a person to react in ways that avoid the problem. The lying narcissists.
Many have frequented a.r.e. in the past, many more than today. People jealous of truth (a liar's arch enemy) and who couldn't "handle" it.
Not so much liars in a.r.e. today though. And why? Because people challenged the lies and the liars. The liars have less ground on which to stand if not grounded in the truth.
"Eckankar" is no exception when it comes to actual, historical, events-that-really-happened truth vs. fabulous, imaginary pseudo event fictions.
Insane, dangerous and mentally unstable individuals perhaps suffer most after confusing fiction with fact. IMO the solution is to face the problem of misinformation supported by pseudo history / religion by targeting the dark forces.
"Saints, devils and credulous fools are made of the same identical stuff. They all have vision. They see the same truth from different aspects. Devils exploit stupidity. They create blinding fear that gives them power over others. It inflates the devils' feeling of importance; and it makes the fools think the devils are the only safe leaders to follow. But the vision of saints acts, by its own nature -- to use a feeble illustration -- like a prism letting light into the darkness. It diffuses the material fog -- the fog that blinds the best of us and makes us victims of want, and disease and crime. The vision of saints lets in affluence and magnanimity and vigor. Naturally, the devils hate it. If they can't pervert saints' vision to their own ends, they try to destroy it."
[Based on: Old Ugly Face, by Talbot Mundy (1940), p. 16]
https://web.archive.org/web/20110424123922/http://arthursclassicnovels.com/mundy/ugfa10.html
Rebazar Tarzs smiled. "Saints, devils and credulous fools are made of the same identical stuff. They all have vision. They see the same truth from different aspects. Devils exploit stupidity. They create blinding fear that gives them power over others, inflates the devils' feelings of importance, and makes the fools think the devils are the only safe leaders to follow. But, to use a feeble illustration, the vision of saints acts like a prism, letting Light into the darkness. It diffuses the material fog that blinds the best of men and makes them victims of want, disease and crime. The vision of saints lets in affluence, magnanimity, and vigor. Naturally, the devils hate it. If they cannot pervert the saints' vision to their own end, they try to destroy it."
[Based on Rebazar Tarzs in: The Key to Eckankar, by Paul Twitchell (1968), bottom paragraph on p. 14 (of the book).]
Letting light into the darkness. I'll say. Light a little light on Rebazar Tarzs and plagiarism!
Now I've been demonized in so many ways by trolls and others in a.r.e. for years. Just like people generally are demonized by lying narcissists.
I think "we" (people in general) don't have to take it. Not from anybody. And that "we" (people in general) are not the problem for sharing truth over fiction. Not a problem for letting "light" into the "darkness". Rather, perhaps the problem is individual fear and passivity about the darkness of mixing fiction with fact?
For the purpose of a.r.e., if Eckankar (the religion) appears to advance pseudo history over actual history, individuals can look at that and the reasons, the causes for that. In order to become a non-profit religion, Eckankar had to answer certain questions perhaps. had to fill out certain forms in order to qualify.
Who is the leader of Eckankar? Who was the leader before them? And before them? Etc.? These are questions that serve to define a religious teaching, or a religion. And whether any of such questions figured into the qualification of Eckankar as a non-profit religion, Why did the founder reportedly say: "THEY'LL BE SORRY." [my large caps)
Keyword search "got it all wrong"
"[...] Now, a lot of the impressions that I first set out in my first work, I'm
having to go back and redo these things and try to correct them.
"And I'm like the fellow who felt his way along in a college course and they
told him he had to write a book in order to keep in the work, and he didn't
know what to say and he had to go, and he had to do something, and when he did, he got it all wrong. [... .]"
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/OQLAnwV6XOY/m/G72JUGZ_7S8J
I've seen that quote a lot of times over the years and this time I see it a little differently. Especially since they were some of his last words before he died. That is, I wonder now if he was of the mind to "DO SOMETHING" but never got the chance.

Ever witness countless examples daily where priests, politicians and media puppets muster a posse of believers to attack anyone who questions their pseudo narrative of events?

People in Ukraine were told: "The Russians are not going to invade."

Based on what evidence?

Surely not the thousands of soldiers and equipment surrounding them. Or maybe the status of the chief person who kept saying it?

Later, millions couldn't get out of the country fast enough. Many fled for their lives!

In Eckankar there is a person believed to hold status who "says" things. His name is Rebazar Tarzs.

"Paul fictionalized his accounts, because he was an experienced writer and knew that stories were far more effective than lectures. Paul set himself up as simply a seeker, in The Tiger's Fang, because he knew from experience that people learn very differently from those who come across as authorities, than from someone who they can identify with, who is describing a personal experience. He created the dialog with Rebazar Tarzs, in The Far Country, because this was a much more effective and interesting way of communicating, than simply pontificating."

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.religion.eckankar/cHzE0Cdcfy4/M6ZJAPyvTNsJ

"[...] As a story of historical fact, Paul's story may not hold up very well. But that is not what it was meant for. It was intended for connecting us to a reality that is more real than any historical fact. [... .]"

https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/MvIbPqSXZNc/m/ZTE7Djvb9zAJ

My comment:

Lies can seem more real than historical fact too. Not only lies, but imaginations and fictions as well.

"[...] The only area that I don't think looks good is Paul's lack of crediting his sources, to the point of making it look like he, or Rebazar Tarzs, was the original source. [... .]"

https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/Er0VHRTk_sc/m/NQYn-wQ00FIJ

I think this is why it's hard to trace the history.

""[...] The point is not whether these beings were historical personages. [... .]"

https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/4ysJK655x2I/m/TRHKGwtNCQAJ

My comment.

Yes. It is, Doug. A point that sends people to La, La land and in the wrong direction.

Paul Twitchell and Eckankar could have cited sources and still communicated a lot of good information instead of wanting to own and sell it via the avenue of religion.

And all the people mislead who suffered? For what? For other people's La, La Land imaginations?

I don't think that equals freedom of religion. I tend to think that equals THE CURSE of a religion.

[Henosis Sage]

Post by Etznab

Post by Etznab
People reacting in fear to liars instead of counteracting the lies and those who tell them.
IMHO.
Whether it's a boss, politician or preacher, media giant, or just plain "leader of the pack" who controls a majority, fear can cause a person to react in ways that avoid the problem. The lying narcissists.
Many have frequented a.r.e. in the past, many more than today. People jealous of truth (a liar's arch enemy) and who couldn't "handle" it.
Not so much liars in a.r.e. today though. And why? Because people challenged the lies and the liars. The liars have less ground on which to stand if not grounded in the truth.
"Eckankar" is no exception when it comes to actual, historical, events-that-really-happened truth vs. fabulous, imaginary pseudo event fictions.
Insane, dangerous and mentally unstable individuals perhaps suffer most after confusing fiction with fact. IMO the solution is to face the problem of misinformation supported by pseudo history / religion by targeting the dark forces.
"Saints, devils and credulous fools are made of the same identical stuff. They all have vision. They see the same truth from different aspects. Devils exploit stupidity. They create blinding fear that gives them power over others. It inflates the devils' feeling of importance; and it makes the fools think the devils are the only safe leaders to follow. But the vision of saints acts, by its own nature -- to use a feeble illustration -- like a prism letting light into the darkness. It diffuses the material fog -- the fog that blinds the best of us and makes us victims of want, and disease and crime. The vision of saints lets in affluence and magnanimity and vigor. Naturally, the devils hate it. If they can't pervert saints' vision to their own ends, they try to destroy it."
[Based on: Old Ugly Face, by Talbot Mundy (1940), p. 16]
https://web.archive.org/web/20110424123922/http://arthursclassicnovels.com/mundy/ugfa10.html
Rebazar Tarzs smiled. "Saints, devils and credulous fools are made of the same identical stuff. They all have vision. They see the same truth from different aspects. Devils exploit stupidity. They create blinding fear that gives them power over others, inflates the devils' feelings of importance, and makes the fools think the devils are the only safe leaders to follow. But, to use a feeble illustration, the vision of saints acts like a prism, letting Light into the darkness. It diffuses the material fog that blinds the best of men and makes them victims of want, disease and crime. The vision of saints lets in affluence, magnanimity, and vigor. Naturally, the devils hate it. If they cannot pervert the saints' vision to their own end, they try to destroy it."
[Based on Rebazar Tarzs in: The Key to Eckankar, by Paul Twitchell (1968), bottom paragraph on p. 14 (of the book).]
Letting light into the darkness. I'll say. Light a little light on Rebazar Tarzs and plagiarism!
Now I've been demonized in so many ways by trolls and others in a.r.e. for years. Just like people generally are demonized by lying narcissists.
I think "we" (people in general) don't have to take it. Not from anybody. And that "we" (people in general) are not the problem for sharing truth over fiction. Not a problem for letting "light" into the "darkness". Rather, perhaps the problem is individual fear and passivity about the darkness of mixing fiction with fact?
For the purpose of a.r.e., if Eckankar (the religion) appears to advance pseudo history over actual history, individuals can look at that and the reasons, the causes for that. In order to become a non-profit religion, Eckankar had to answer certain questions perhaps. had to fill out certain forms in order to qualify.
Who is the leader of Eckankar? Who was the leader before them? And before them? Etc.? These are questions that serve to define a religious teaching, or a religion. And whether any of such questions figured into the qualification of Eckankar as a non-profit religion, Why did the founder reportedly say: "THEY'LL BE SORRY." [my large caps)
Keyword search "got it all wrong"
"[...] Now, a lot of the impressions that I first set out in my first work, I'm
having to go back and redo these things and try to correct them.
"And I'm like the fellow who felt his way along in a college course and they
told him he had to write a book in order to keep in the work, and he didn't
know what to say and he had to go, and he had to do something, and when he did, he got it all wrong. [... .]"
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/OQLAnwV6XOY/m/G72JUGZ_7S8J
I've seen that quote a lot of times over the years and this time I see it a little differently. Especially since they were some of his last words before he died. That is, I wonder now if he was of the mind to "DO SOMETHING" but never got the chance.

Ever witness countless examples daily where priests, politicians and media puppets muster a posse of believers to attack anyone who questions their pseudo narrative of events?
People in Ukraine were told: "The Russians are not going to invade."
Based on what evidence?
Surely not the thousands of soldiers and equipment surrounding them. Or maybe the status of the chief person who kept saying it?
Later, millions couldn't get out of the country fast enough. Many fled for their lives!
In Eckankar there is a person believed to hold status who "says" things. His name is Rebazar Tarzs.
"Paul fictionalized his accounts, because he was an experienced writer and knew that stories were far more effective than lectures. Paul set himself up as simply a seeker, in The Tiger's Fang, because he knew from experience that people learn very differently from those who come across as authorities, than from someone who they can identify with, who is describing a personal experience. He created the dialog with Rebazar Tarzs, in The Far Country, because this was a much more effective and interesting way of communicating, than simply pontificating."
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.religion.eckankar/cHzE0Cdcfy4/M6ZJAPyvTNsJ
"[...] As a story of historical fact, Paul's story may not hold up very well. But that is not what it was meant for. It was intended for connecting us to a reality that is more real than any historical fact. [... .]"
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/MvIbPqSXZNc/m/ZTE7Djvb9zAJ
Lies can seem more real than historical fact too. Not only lies, but imaginations and fictions as well.
"[...] The only area that I don't think looks good is Paul's lack of crediting his sources, to the point of making it look like he, or Rebazar Tarzs, was the original source. [... .]"
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/Er0VHRTk_sc/m/NQYn-wQ00FIJ
I think this is why it's hard to trace the history.
""[...] The point is not whether these beings were historical personages. [... .]"
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/4ysJK655x2I/m/TRHKGwtNCQAJ
My comment.
Yes. It is, Doug. A point that sends people to La, La land and in the wrong direction.
Paul Twitchell and Eckankar could have cited sources and still communicated a lot of good information instead of wanting to own and sell it via the avenue of religion.
And all the people mislead who suffered? For what? For other people's La, La Land imaginations?
I don't think that equals freedom of religion. I tend to think that equals THE CURSE of a religion.

Doug Marman and many many more are evil creeps.

really good thread contents, i think you've nailed it. fits harold klemp in particular too .... and all who follow/followed him.

you said -- "Now I've [AND MYSELF] been demonized [ ie BULLIED HARASSED INSULTED ABUSED LIED ABOUT SLANDERED ] in so many ways by trolls and others in a.r.e. for years. Just like people generally are demonized by lying narcissists. "
-- this is so true too such as by JR CLARK (now aka opus dei) , MATT SHARPE (kinpa ) , FIFE and ROB and many many more

I'D add to this comment of yours in the beginning --
-- "People reacting in fear to liars [ AND BEING DRIVEN TO GREAT UNFOUNDED ARROGANCE AND EXTREME MANIPULATIVE LYING THEMSELVES ] instead of counteracting the lies and those who tell them.

This fits both Eckankar/religions and the Ukraine / the media political think tank capitalist bullshitters as well ... haughty self centred egotistical uncaring arrogant lying narcissists in general are toxic lowlifes imho - they come in all shapes and sizes and appearances ...