"some of us"

[Etznab]

In the 1980s and since, Harold Klemp (as Doug Marman admits) talked about plagiarism (using different words instead) and other things. However, he stopped short of admitting that Paul made up fictional masters. Personally I think he hinted at it. I think he hinted at it a lot, but expected each individual to accept the truth on their own.

BIG PROBLEM!

Some people don't want to accept that Paul fictionalized things. Don't want to accept fictional masters. They will dig in their heels and absolutely refuse and will fight you for trying to make them accept it. Haven't a.r.e. and other online groups testified to as much?

And some people who try to accept it might have a breakdown and become schizophrenic, or worse. People who will target you personally for daring to tell the truth and wanting to research and investigate the extent of it.

[Maplin]

Post by Etznab
In the 1980s and since, Harold Klemp (as Doug Marman admits) talked about plagiarism (using different words instead) and other things. However, he stopped short of admitting that Paul made up fictional masters. Personally I think he hinted at it. I think he hinted at it a lot, but expected each individual to accept the truth on their own.
BIG PROBLEM!
Some people don't want to accept that Paul fictionalized things. Don't want to accept fictional masters. They will dig in their heels and absolutely refuse and will fight you for trying to make them accept it. Haven't a.r.e. and other online groups testified to as much?
And some people who try to accept it might have a breakdown and become schizophrenic, or worse. People who will target you personally for daring to tell the truth and wanting to research and investigate the extent of it.

Sorry to be over 2 weeks late replying to this, finding time to post has
been difficult. But, yes I think you have summed up the situation
nicely. I've been watching you post the results of your investigation
into the plagiarism issue and it's certainly thorough, lucid and well
presented. I don't know the issue myself but I don't have any reason to
dispute what you've posted.

It's also true that a.r.e really could testify to the fact that some
people really don't want to hear about it and will resist it, to the
point that they really don't even want anyone else talking about it. I
find that strange, but familiar. I can think of other religious figures
and institutions who have put a lot of effort into controlling such
conversations, and will even go to some remarkable lengths to shut them
down altogether. I wonder just what would be the furthest anyone out
there would go to deny and silence these revelations of plagiarism.

You're doing a good thing. Truth will out, as they say. Repressing and
denying simple fact is never a good idea and can't end well. I applaud
what you've done and I'm sure it has helped someone, somewhere.

[Etznab]

Post by Maplin

Post by Etznab
In the 1980s and since, Harold Klemp (as Doug Marman admits) talked about plagiarism (using different words instead) and other things. However, he stopped short of admitting that Paul made up fictional masters. Personally I think he hinted at it. I think he hinted at it a lot, but expected each individual to accept the truth on their own.
BIG PROBLEM!
Some people don't want to accept that Paul fictionalized things. Don't want to accept fictional masters. They will dig in their heels and absolutely refuse and will fight you for trying to make them accept it. Haven't a.r.e. and other online groups testified to as much?
And some people who try to accept it might have a breakdown and become schizophrenic, or worse. People who will target you personally for daring to tell the truth and wanting to research and investigate the extent of it.

Sorry to be over 2 weeks late replying to this, finding time to post has
been difficult. But, yes I think you have summed up the situation
nicely. I've been watching you post the results of your investigation
into the plagiarism issue and it's certainly thorough, lucid and well
presented. I don't know the issue myself but I don't have any reason to
dispute what you've posted.
It's also true that a.r.e really could testify to the fact that some
people really don't want to hear about it and will resist it, to the
point that they really don't even want anyone else talking about it. I
find that strange, but familiar. I can think of other religious figures
and institutions who have put a lot of effort into controlling such
conversations, and will even go to some remarkable lengths to shut them
down altogether. I wonder just what would be the furthest anyone out
there would go to deny and silence these revelations of plagiarism.
You're doing a good thing. Truth will out, as they say. Repressing and
denying simple fact is never a good idea and can't end well. I applaud
what you've done and I'm sure it has helped someone, somewhere.

With the reviewing of history I've found that some things are made up and simply not true. Wanting to know the difference between true and false is just plain natural, IMO.

For example, Paul Twitchell, the founder of Eckankar, was reportedly poisoned in 1970; or so the story goes. Maybe I can find some 1970s trivia for you:

"Reportedly, after taking the poison, Paul Twitchell was knocked out for about four days."

[Based on: Paul Twitchell, ECK World Wide Seminar, Las Vegas NV, October, 1970]

BTW. I listened to the audiotape and Paul Twitchell tell the story. IMO he was not happy about it. Nor did he sound like Buddha who ate the tainted rice. Read on.

"A very significant event in Paul's spiritual evolution took place in the summer of 1970. During a trip to Spain, he was poisoned. A young man, under the influence of the Kal Niranjan, slipped an extremely potent poison into Paul's citrus drink. Paul had walked into this individual's home with complete openness and an abounding love, and when he was handed the juice, he drank it. But he knew it would harm him, in the same way that Buddha did when he ate the tainted rice."

[Based on: Article: (Paul's Last Year), by Harold Klemp - 1984

https://web.archive.org/web/20060620145346/http://www.eckankar.org/Masters/Peddar/writings.html]

According to the book entitled: Paulji A Memoir [2nd printing, 1986, original copyright 1985, by Patti Simpson] - Paul Twitchell's schedule for 1970 included: Consultations in Madrid, Spain, August 11th-15th [p.99]. In her book, Patti mentions going to see a doctor [p.103]: 'I visited him the last week in August.' who told her: 'When Paul was in Spain, someone poisoned him. He is in very bad condition.' [p.104] "

"[....] Except for a few members of the Inner Circle, Paulji's poisoning was not known to the world or to his followers. From August [1970] until the World Wide Seminar [October, 1970], no word was spoken of his condition. [....]"

[Based on: Paulji, A Memoir, by Patti Simpson, 2nd printing: 1986, p. 108; Original Copyright: 1985]

"[....] The question has been raised, if Paulji [Paul Twitchell] had such special powers, why did he not detect that the juice drink in Spain was poisoned? There is no need to go into this in depth here, as that will be covered in his biography that I [Patti Simpson] am assembling next, and will detail all he had to say about the experience. Basically, though, I will say that he had a foreknowledge of the poisoning, but that he would not avoid it for special reasons. [....]"

[Based on: Paulji A Memoir, by Patti Simpson, 2nd Printing: 1986, p. 127]

"Paul was a man given a most difficult mission. As evidenced by the fact that a disturbed person attempted to kill him with poison in September 1970 and the resulting illness he experienced in the final year of his life, Paul had little to gain materially from this mission. Yet right to the end, he continued to gather together and put out the teachings of truth."

[Based on: Article: (A Difficult Mission), by Harold Klemp - 1985?]

https://web.archive.org/web/20060929165029/http://www.eckankar.org/Masters/Peddar/man.html

"[....] On the advice of Paul's attorneys, in 1970 Eckankar was established as a nonprofit organization. This would provide financial stability, continuity of the ECK teachings, and insure the future of Eckankar. [....]"

[Based on: Article: (The Future of ECK), by Harold Klemp - 1985?]

https://web.archive.org/web/20060929165029/http://www.eckankar.org/Masters/Peddar/man.html

"Paul was a man given a most difficult mission. As evidenced by the fact that a disturbed person attempted to kill him with poison in September 1970 and the resulting illness he experienced in the final year of his life, Paul had little to gain materially from this mission. Yet right to the end, he continued to gather together and put out the teachings of truth."

[Etznab]

Post by Etznab

Post by Maplin

Post by Etznab
In the 1980s and since, Harold Klemp (as Doug Marman admits) talked about plagiarism (using different words instead) and other things. However, he stopped short of admitting that Paul made up fictional masters. Personally I think he hinted at it. I think he hinted at it a lot, but expected each individual to accept the truth on their own.
BIG PROBLEM!
Some people don't want to accept that Paul fictionalized things. Don't want to accept fictional masters. They will dig in their heels and absolutely refuse and will fight you for trying to make them accept it. Haven't a.r.e. and other online groups testified to as much?
And some people who try to accept it might have a breakdown and become schizophrenic, or worse. People who will target you personally for daring to tell the truth and wanting to research and investigate the extent of it.

Sorry to be over 2 weeks late replying to this, finding time to post has
been difficult. But, yes I think you have summed up the situation
nicely. I've been watching you post the results of your investigation
into the plagiarism issue and it's certainly thorough, lucid and well
presented. I don't know the issue myself but I don't have any reason to
dispute what you've posted.
It's also true that a.r.e really could testify to the fact that some
people really don't want to hear about it and will resist it, to the
point that they really don't even want anyone else talking about it. I
find that strange, but familiar. I can think of other religious figures
and institutions who have put a lot of effort into controlling such
conversations, and will even go to some remarkable lengths to shut them
down altogether. I wonder just what would be the furthest anyone out
there would go to deny and silence these revelations of plagiarism.
You're doing a good thing. Truth will out, as they say. Repressing and
denying simple fact is never a good idea and can't end well. I applaud
what you've done and I'm sure it has helped someone, somewhere.

With the reviewing of history I've found that some things are made up and simply not true. Wanting to know the difference between true and false is just plain natural, IMO.
"Reportedly, after taking the poison, Paul Twitchell was knocked out for about four days."
[Based on: Paul Twitchell, ECK World Wide Seminar, Las Vegas NV, October, 1970]
BTW. I listened to the audiotape and Paul Twitchell tell the story. IMO he was not happy about it. Nor did he sound like Buddha who ate the tainted rice. Read on.
"A very significant event in Paul's spiritual evolution took place in the summer of 1970. During a trip to Spain, he was poisoned. A young man, under the influence of the Kal Niranjan, slipped an extremely potent poison into Paul's citrus drink. Paul had walked into this individual's home with complete openness and an abounding love, and when he was handed the juice, he drank it. But he knew it would harm him, in the same way that Buddha did when he ate the tainted rice."
[Based on: Article: (Paul's Last Year), by Harold Klemp - 1984
https://web.archive.org/web/20060620145346/http://www.eckankar.org/Masters/Peddar/writings.html]
According to the book entitled: Paulji A Memoir [2nd printing, 1986, original copyright 1985, by Patti Simpson] - Paul Twitchell's schedule for 1970 included: Consultations in Madrid, Spain, August 11th-15th [p.99]. In her book, Patti mentions going to see a doctor [p.103]: 'I visited him the last week in August.' who told her: 'When Paul was in Spain, someone poisoned him. He is in very bad condition.' [p.104] "
"[....] Except for a few members of the Inner Circle, Paulji's poisoning was not known to the world or to his followers. From August [1970] until the World Wide Seminar [October, 1970], no word was spoken of his condition. [....]"
[Based on: Paulji, A Memoir, by Patti Simpson, 2nd printing: 1986, p. 108; Original Copyright: 1985]
"[....] The question has been raised, if Paulji [Paul Twitchell] had such special powers, why did he not detect that the juice drink in Spain was poisoned? There is no need to go into this in depth here, as that will be covered in his biography that I [Patti Simpson] am assembling next, and will detail all he had to say about the experience. Basically, though, I will say that he had a foreknowledge of the poisoning, but that he would not avoid it for special reasons. [....]"
[Based on: Paulji A Memoir, by Patti Simpson, 2nd Printing: 1986, p. 127]
"Paul was a man given a most difficult mission. As evidenced by the fact that a disturbed person attempted to kill him with poison in September 1970 and the resulting illness he experienced in the final year of his life, Paul had little to gain materially from this mission. Yet right to the end, he continued to gather together and put out the teachings of truth."
[Based on: Article: (A Difficult Mission), by Harold Klemp - 1985?]
https://web.archive.org/web/20060929165029/http://www.eckankar.org/Masters/Peddar/man.html
"[....] On the advice of Paul's attorneys, in 1970 Eckankar was established as a nonprofit organization. This would provide financial stability, continuity of the ECK teachings, and insure the future of Eckankar. [....]"
[Based on: Article: (The Future of ECK), by Harold Klemp - 1985?]
https://web.archive.org/web/20060929165029/http://www.eckankar.org/Masters/Peddar/man.html
"Paul was a man given a most difficult mission. As evidenced by the fact that a disturbed person attempted to kill him with poison in September 1970 and the resulting illness he experienced in the final year of his life, Paul had little to gain materially from this mission. Yet right to the end, he continued to gather together and put out the teachings of truth."

I wrote a post on this subject years ago as I was researching it. A quote:

The doctor mentioned in Patti's book - the one who told her that Paul had been poisoned - I am assuming that was Dr. Louis Bluth. Apparently, he was also one of the individuals (if not THE individual) who claimed a person (the one who gave the drink to Paul, I assume) had heard voices in his head that told him he had to destroy the man.

""He heard voices in his head that told him he had to destroy the man." (Paulji A Memoir, 2nd Printing 1986 p. 104)

https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/dzPWEcxiqws/m/i7zI1lsia-kJ

To be clear, Paul Twitchell - when forming Eckankar, had a friend by the name of Dr. Louis Bluth. This same Dr. Louis Bluth?

"[...] if we tear something down, we should have something equally good to put in its place; [... .]" - Drs. Louis and Dorothy Bluth, Berrien Springs, Mich.

Loading Image...

https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/D6c3nKsqwTU/m/vVe4hU3LAwAJ

In any case, besides personal friend, a Dr. Louis Bluth (from Michigan and who had a wife named Dorothy, BTW) reportedly was Paul Twitchell's personal doctor, became the 1st President of Eckankar, was instrumental when arguing to make Eckankar into a non-profit religion, and believed he might succeed Paul Twitchell as leader of Eckankar.

What is true with all of the details for this poisoning story??? After all, Paul Twitchell was known for making things up.

Regardless the details, the basic story appears to stem from a one Dr. Louis Bluth; if Patti Simpson can be believed. IOW, Bluth seemed to know enough about the person to suggest he heard voices in his head and had to destroy the man. How did Dr. Bluth know this if he didn't go to Spain with Paul Twitchell? but remained behind in the states? (I'm not certain, but I don't think Bluth had gone to Spain with Paul and Gail.)

So somewhere this story came to light and, according to Patti Simpson, it was told to her by a doctor. She didn't say that Paul Twitchell told her. She said the Dr. did. However, to date I know of no empirical evidence (haven't personally seen any) for a poisoning incident in Spain. No police report. No hospital report. No exact day and month for the event. No name for a suspect. No trial or prosecution, etc., etc. Only a story that stems from a Dr. that Patti wrote about, that Harold Klemp and others have echoed years after the event reportedly occurred.

And what was the fault of Paul Twitchell that even Doug Marman didn't think looked good? Using copied / plagiarized material and crediting eck masters instead? IOW ... stuff made up that wasn't true? Well the poisoning story, if true, also suggests stuff made up that wasn't true; "He heard voices in his head that told him he had to destroy the man."

This was why I started researching Eckankar history many years ago, just in case over the years anybody missed it! (I mentioned it repeatedly) IOW, I wanted to know more details about this story. What parts were true and what parts were false. (And why did Patti Simpson dawn a disguise and start driving around wearing a wig?)

"For some reason that I didn't understand then, and don't to this day, I put on a wig, a different color than my hair, and dark sunglasses. Wherever I was going, it was incognito."

https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/8FcQBHzIjEo/m/8D2AoI8QdYAJ

[Etznab]

Post by Maplin

Post by Etznab
In the 1980s and since, Harold Klemp (as Doug Marman admits) talked about plagiarism (using different words instead) and other things. However, he stopped short of admitting that Paul made up fictional masters. Personally I think he hinted at it. I think he hinted at it a lot, but expected each individual to accept the truth on their own.
BIG PROBLEM!
Some people don't want to accept that Paul fictionalized things. Don't want to accept fictional masters. They will dig in their heels and absolutely refuse and will fight you for trying to make them accept it. Haven't a.r.e. and other online groups testified to as much?
And some people who try to accept it might have a breakdown and become schizophrenic, or worse. People who will target you personally for daring to tell the truth and wanting to research and investigate the extent of it.

Sorry to be over 2 weeks late replying to this, finding time to post has
been difficult. But, yes I think you have summed up the situation
nicely. I've been watching you post the results of your investigation
into the plagiarism issue and it's certainly thorough, lucid and well
presented. I don't know the issue myself but I don't have any reason to
dispute what you've posted.
It's also true that a.r.e really could testify to the fact that some
people really don't want to hear about it and will resist it, to the
point that they really don't even want anyone else talking about it. I
find that strange, but familiar. I can think of other religious figures
and institutions who have put a lot of effort into controlling such
conversations, and will even go to some remarkable lengths to shut them
down altogether. I wonder just what would be the furthest anyone out
there would go to deny and silence these revelations of plagiarism.
You're doing a good thing. Truth will out, as they say. Repressing and
denying simple fact is never a good idea and can't end well. I applaud
what you've done and I'm sure it has helped someone, somewhere.

"[...] I wonder just what would be the furthest anyone out there would go to deny and silence these revelations of plagiarism. [... .]"

"Sensing the damage that the publication of David Lane's research would have on Eckankar, its lawyer, Alan Nichols, attempted to refute the charge that Paul [Paul Twitchell] had plagiarized the works of Julian Johnson. He wrote in a letter to Lane in 1977:

"With a wide background of study you will find many similarities both approximate and exact in many religious statements, history and mythology. [...] How did you know Johnson didn't obtain his information from Twitchell or Rebazar Tarzs [sic] or some other common source? Don't be surprised that many people find the same truths and even in the same words, commandments, etc., whether they are concepts, stories of events, or levels of God Worlds or consciousness."

[See: Confessions of a God Seeker, A Journey to Higher Consciousness, by Ford Johnson, p. 124]

A little trivia for you. When Twitchell copied part of a speech by Swami Vivekananda (illustrated by Julian Johnson in his book, who duly credited Vivekananda) and credited it to Rebazar Tarzs, the speech in question (1893) happened at a time when Paul Twitchell wasn't even born!

Johnson didn't get his information from Twitchell! And Twitchell reportedly hadn't met Rebazar Tarzs until 1951!

"[....] My sole purpose was to find the elusive Tibetan lama, known as Rebazar Tarzs, of whom I had heard much from the late Sudar Singh at Allahabad. [....] It was a hot summer afternoon in 1951. [....]"

[Based on: ECKANKAR, Compiled Writings Volume 1, Paul Twitchell (Copyright 1975 by Gail T. Gross), p. 32 - Compiled from Introduction to Eckankar, Copyright 1966]

Julian Johnson wrote his book in the 1930s!

IMHO, that lawyer was jacked!