Discussion:
REVISITING "THE WHOLE TRUTH" - quotes list
(too old to reply)
Etznab
2021-01-15 15:02:44 UTC
Permalink
1997

"[...] But the bottom line is: So what? What difference does it really make? Lane suggests that if Paul lied about this, then how can you trust anything he says? Well, for one thing, who says you should trust anything Paul said?

"[...] And once you've gained that connection, who cares if it is fiction? It is certainly fiction of a whole different sort. A fiction that is truer than fact.

"[...] The origins of living teachings cannot be found by tracing historical events, but only by making contact with the higher states of consciousness from where they spring.

"[...] As a story of historical fact, Paul's story may not hold up very well. But that is not what it was meant for. It was intended for connecting us to a reality that is more real than any historical fact. [... .]"

https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/MvIbPqSXZNc/m/ZTE7Djvb9zAJ

"[...] The point is not whether these beings were historical personages. The problem Lane has here is that he is trying to use the principles of Logical Deduction to judge spiritual realities. The principles of Logic, as they were established in the 18th and 19th centuries, claim that all statements are either true, false or meaningless. Clearly David is trying to fit Paul's writings into one of these three categories.

"[...] Therefore, it is possible to prove these statements for ourselves inwardly, not publicly, and this is the foundation of the teachings of ECKANKAR. So when we say that we believe this statement is true, we are talking about a truth beyond physical proofs.

"[...] The lesson here, for the spiritual student, is to become aware of the difference between what one knows through one's own personal experience, and what one has accepted on faith from outer teaching. Once you have had inner encounters with the ECK Masters or other spiritual realities, it is important to establish within yourself whether this is a reality or not. If you cannot, you leave yourself open to the challenges of the scientists or the lawyers.

"[...] This means that, when studying the works of ECKANKAR, we should take what we find is useful and not worry about the rest. Remember, the writings of the ECK Masters are aimed at many different states of consciousness. [... .]"

https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/kP7ml_Rh9lY/m/6CaYXfGiC4wJ

"[...] The only area that I don't think looks good is Paul's lack of crediting his sources, to the point of making it look like he, or Rebazar Tarzs, was the original source. This looks especially bad these days, since copyright law has become much more controlled and publicized. However, it doesn't appear to have been much of a problem while Paul was alive. [... .]"

https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/Er0VHRTk_sc/m/NQYn-wQ00FIJ

1998

"Paul fictionalized his accounts, because he was an experienced writer and knew that stories were far more effective than lectures. Paul set himself up as simply a seeker, in The Tiger's Fang, because he knew from experience that people learn very differently from those who come across as authorities, than from someone who they can identify with, who is describing a personal experience. He created the dialog with Rebazar Tarzs, in The Far Country, because this was a much more effective and interesting way of communicating, than simply pontificating."

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.religion.eckankar/cHzE0Cdcfy4/M6ZJAPyvTNsJ

"[...] And no matter what anyone might do, organizations will always look after themselves. Organizations can not act any other way when they are leading.

"This is why the inner connection to Spirit, the ECK, is the only thing that we can rely on. [...]

https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/flPIG63ZhWM/m/8xOvqxhQSasJ

"And if the teaching is sincere about the spiritual path, it needs to point out over and over again its own limitations in its outer form. [... .]"

https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/flPIG63ZhWM/m/8xOvqxhQSasJ

[...] My opinion, Dave, since you have expressed yours above, is that the only person we should try to keep on a hook is our own selves. We should take full responsibility for everything we create, and we should try to be conscious and aware of our own decisions. This leaves us free to continue on with our lives, and not get hung up on how someone else's choices might have affected our lives, which are things of the past. [... .]"

https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/GBwgDKAztbI/m/zAJCPXv-SP8J

"Strange as it may seem today, back when Paul began writing his books, such as The Far Country, the creation of myth was still seen as a necessary requirement of most spiritual paths."

https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/GBwgDKAztbI/m/zAJCPXv-SP8J

"[...] I, for one, love the differences. That we would make different choices, I think is fascinating and makes for interesting discussions and debates. But the painting of each other as if one side is wrong, and the other is right, does surprise me, because I think we all have learned early on in our spiritual search, that the Social Conscience, where the wordly ideas of right and wrong are bandied about, must be abandoned if we are going to find real Truth. [... .]"

https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/XyM6OgFl9zI/m/dHTqQiQmD3wJ
Etznab
2021-01-23 02:10:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Etznab
1997
"[...] But the bottom line is: So what? What difference does it really make? Lane suggests that if Paul lied about this, then how can you trust anything he says? Well, for one thing, who says you should trust anything Paul said?
"[...] And once you've gained that connection, who cares if it is fiction? It is certainly fiction of a whole different sort. A fiction that is truer than fact.
"[...] The origins of living teachings cannot be found by tracing historical events, but only by making contact with the higher states of consciousness from where they spring.
"[...] As a story of historical fact, Paul's story may not hold up very well. But that is not what it was meant for. It was intended for connecting us to a reality that is more real than any historical fact. [... .]"
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/MvIbPqSXZNc/m/ZTE7Djvb9zAJ
"[...] The point is not whether these beings were historical personages. The problem Lane has here is that he is trying to use the principles of Logical Deduction to judge spiritual realities. The principles of Logic, as they were established in the 18th and 19th centuries, claim that all statements are either true, false or meaningless. Clearly David is trying to fit Paul's writings into one of these three categories.
"[...] Therefore, it is possible to prove these statements for ourselves inwardly, not publicly, and this is the foundation of the teachings of ECKANKAR. So when we say that we believe this statement is true, we are talking about a truth beyond physical proofs.
"[...] The lesson here, for the spiritual student, is to become aware of the difference between what one knows through one's own personal experience, and what one has accepted on faith from outer teaching. Once you have had inner encounters with the ECK Masters or other spiritual realities, it is important to establish within yourself whether this is a reality or not. If you cannot, you leave yourself open to the challenges of the scientists or the lawyers.
"[...] This means that, when studying the works of ECKANKAR, we should take what we find is useful and not worry about the rest. Remember, the writings of the ECK Masters are aimed at many different states of consciousness. [... .]"
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/kP7ml_Rh9lY/m/6CaYXfGiC4wJ
"[...] The only area that I don't think looks good is Paul's lack of crediting his sources, to the point of making it look like he, or Rebazar Tarzs, was the original source. This looks especially bad these days, since copyright law has become much more controlled and publicized. However, it doesn't appear to have been much of a problem while Paul was alive. [... .]"
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/Er0VHRTk_sc/m/NQYn-wQ00FIJ
1998
"Paul fictionalized his accounts, because he was an experienced writer and knew that stories were far more effective than lectures. Paul set himself up as simply a seeker, in The Tiger's Fang, because he knew from experience that people learn very differently from those who come across as authorities, than from someone who they can identify with, who is describing a personal experience. He created the dialog with Rebazar Tarzs, in The Far Country, because this was a much more effective and interesting way of communicating, than simply pontificating."
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.religion.eckankar/cHzE0Cdcfy4/M6ZJAPyvTNsJ
"[...] And no matter what anyone might do, organizations will always look after themselves. Organizations can not act any other way when they are leading.
"This is why the inner connection to Spirit, the ECK, is the only thing that we can rely on. [...]
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/flPIG63ZhWM/m/8xOvqxhQSasJ
"And if the teaching is sincere about the spiritual path, it needs to point out over and over again its own limitations in its outer form. [... .]"
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/flPIG63ZhWM/m/8xOvqxhQSasJ
[...] My opinion, Dave, since you have expressed yours above, is that the only person we should try to keep on a hook is our own selves. We should take full responsibility for everything we create, and we should try to be conscious and aware of our own decisions. This leaves us free to continue on with our lives, and not get hung up on how someone else's choices might have affected our lives, which are things of the past. [... .]"
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/GBwgDKAztbI/m/zAJCPXv-SP8J
"Strange as it may seem today, back when Paul began writing his books, such as The Far Country, the creation of myth was still seen as a necessary requirement of most spiritual paths."
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/GBwgDKAztbI/m/zAJCPXv-SP8J
"[...] I, for one, love the differences. That we would make different choices, I think is fascinating and makes for interesting discussions and debates. But the painting of each other as if one side is wrong, and the other is right, does surprise me, because I think we all have learned early on in our spiritual search, that the Social Conscience, where the wordly ideas of right and wrong are bandied about, must be abandoned if we are going to find real Truth. [... .]"
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/XyM6OgFl9zI/m/dHTqQiQmD3wJ
To me, it looks like Doug has known the truth for a long time. And if Doug knows the truth then, IMO Harold Klemp surely knows it too. Knows about what masters are fiction. Doug admits it though and tries to rationalize the practice of making things up for effect. As for Harold, I don't recall him admitting that any masters were fictions animated by Paul Twitchell compiled writings.
Etznab
2021-01-23 21:43:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Etznab
1997
"[...] But the bottom line is: So what? What difference does it really make? Lane suggests that if Paul lied about this, then how can you trust anything he says? Well, for one thing, who says you should trust anything Paul said?
"[...] And once you've gained that connection, who cares if it is fiction? It is certainly fiction of a whole different sort. A fiction that is truer than fact.
"[...] The origins of living teachings cannot be found by tracing historical events, but only by making contact with the higher states of consciousness from where they spring.
"[...] As a story of historical fact, Paul's story may not hold up very well. But that is not what it was meant for. It was intended for connecting us to a reality that is more real than any historical fact. [... .]"
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/MvIbPqSXZNc/m/ZTE7Djvb9zAJ
"[...] The point is not whether these beings were historical personages. The problem Lane has here is that he is trying to use the principles of Logical Deduction to judge spiritual realities. The principles of Logic, as they were established in the 18th and 19th centuries, claim that all statements are either true, false or meaningless. Clearly David is trying to fit Paul's writings into one of these three categories.
"[...] Therefore, it is possible to prove these statements for ourselves inwardly, not publicly, and this is the foundation of the teachings of ECKANKAR. So when we say that we believe this statement is true, we are talking about a truth beyond physical proofs.
"[...] The lesson here, for the spiritual student, is to become aware of the difference between what one knows through one's own personal experience, and what one has accepted on faith from outer teaching. Once you have had inner encounters with the ECK Masters or other spiritual realities, it is important to establish within yourself whether this is a reality or not. If you cannot, you leave yourself open to the challenges of the scientists or the lawyers.
"[...] This means that, when studying the works of ECKANKAR, we should take what we find is useful and not worry about the rest. Remember, the writings of the ECK Masters are aimed at many different states of consciousness. [... .]"
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/kP7ml_Rh9lY/m/6CaYXfGiC4wJ
"[...] The only area that I don't think looks good is Paul's lack of crediting his sources, to the point of making it look like he, or Rebazar Tarzs, was the original source. This looks especially bad these days, since copyright law has become much more controlled and publicized. However, it doesn't appear to have been much of a problem while Paul was alive. [... .]"
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/Er0VHRTk_sc/m/NQYn-wQ00FIJ
1998
"Paul fictionalized his accounts, because he was an experienced writer and knew that stories were far more effective than lectures. Paul set himself up as simply a seeker, in The Tiger's Fang, because he knew from experience that people learn very differently from those who come across as authorities, than from someone who they can identify with, who is describing a personal experience. He created the dialog with Rebazar Tarzs, in The Far Country, because this was a much more effective and interesting way of communicating, than simply pontificating."
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.religion.eckankar/cHzE0Cdcfy4/M6ZJAPyvTNsJ
"[...] And no matter what anyone might do, organizations will always look after themselves. Organizations can not act any other way when they are leading.
"This is why the inner connection to Spirit, the ECK, is the only thing that we can rely on. [...]
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/flPIG63ZhWM/m/8xOvqxhQSasJ
"And if the teaching is sincere about the spiritual path, it needs to point out over and over again its own limitations in its outer form. [... .]"
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/flPIG63ZhWM/m/8xOvqxhQSasJ
[...] My opinion, Dave, since you have expressed yours above, is that the only person we should try to keep on a hook is our own selves. We should take full responsibility for everything we create, and we should try to be conscious and aware of our own decisions. This leaves us free to continue on with our lives, and not get hung up on how someone else's choices might have affected our lives, which are things of the past. [... .]"
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/GBwgDKAztbI/m/zAJCPXv-SP8J
"Strange as it may seem today, back when Paul began writing his books, such as The Far Country, the creation of myth was still seen as a necessary requirement of most spiritual paths."
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/GBwgDKAztbI/m/zAJCPXv-SP8J
"[...] I, for one, love the differences. That we would make different choices, I think is fascinating and makes for interesting discussions and debates. But the painting of each other as if one side is wrong, and the other is right, does surprise me, because I think we all have learned early on in our spiritual search, that the Social Conscience, where the wordly ideas of right and wrong are bandied about, must be abandoned if we are going to find real Truth. [... .]"
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/XyM6OgFl9zI/m/dHTqQiQmD3wJ
"[...] And what do I care if he painted fiction to express Truth, or blurred the facts to create his background scenery? It's like a friend who once had a dream where Jesus told him: 'It's all poetry.' [... .]"

https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/Ojkgn_PP-5Q/m/muTw3THZQ9cJ
Etznab
2021-01-27 00:04:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Etznab
Post by Etznab
1997
"[...] But the bottom line is: So what? What difference does it really make? Lane suggests that if Paul lied about this, then how can you trust anything he says? Well, for one thing, who says you should trust anything Paul said?
"[...] And once you've gained that connection, who cares if it is fiction? It is certainly fiction of a whole different sort. A fiction that is truer than fact.
"[...] The origins of living teachings cannot be found by tracing historical events, but only by making contact with the higher states of consciousness from where they spring.
"[...] As a story of historical fact, Paul's story may not hold up very well. But that is not what it was meant for. It was intended for connecting us to a reality that is more real than any historical fact. [... .]"
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/MvIbPqSXZNc/m/ZTE7Djvb9zAJ
"[...] The point is not whether these beings were historical personages. The problem Lane has here is that he is trying to use the principles of Logical Deduction to judge spiritual realities. The principles of Logic, as they were established in the 18th and 19th centuries, claim that all statements are either true, false or meaningless. Clearly David is trying to fit Paul's writings into one of these three categories.
"[...] Therefore, it is possible to prove these statements for ourselves inwardly, not publicly, and this is the foundation of the teachings of ECKANKAR. So when we say that we believe this statement is true, we are talking about a truth beyond physical proofs.
"[...] The lesson here, for the spiritual student, is to become aware of the difference between what one knows through one's own personal experience, and what one has accepted on faith from outer teaching. Once you have had inner encounters with the ECK Masters or other spiritual realities, it is important to establish within yourself whether this is a reality or not. If you cannot, you leave yourself open to the challenges of the scientists or the lawyers.
"[...] This means that, when studying the works of ECKANKAR, we should take what we find is useful and not worry about the rest. Remember, the writings of the ECK Masters are aimed at many different states of consciousness. [... .]"
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/kP7ml_Rh9lY/m/6CaYXfGiC4wJ
"[...] The only area that I don't think looks good is Paul's lack of crediting his sources, to the point of making it look like he, or Rebazar Tarzs, was the original source. This looks especially bad these days, since copyright law has become much more controlled and publicized. However, it doesn't appear to have been much of a problem while Paul was alive. [... .]"
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/Er0VHRTk_sc/m/NQYn-wQ00FIJ
1998
"Paul fictionalized his accounts, because he was an experienced writer and knew that stories were far more effective than lectures. Paul set himself up as simply a seeker, in The Tiger's Fang, because he knew from experience that people learn very differently from those who come across as authorities, than from someone who they can identify with, who is describing a personal experience. He created the dialog with Rebazar Tarzs, in The Far Country, because this was a much more effective and interesting way of communicating, than simply pontificating."
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.religion.eckankar/cHzE0Cdcfy4/M6ZJAPyvTNsJ
"[...] And no matter what anyone might do, organizations will always look after themselves. Organizations can not act any other way when they are leading.
"This is why the inner connection to Spirit, the ECK, is the only thing that we can rely on. [...]
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/flPIG63ZhWM/m/8xOvqxhQSasJ
"And if the teaching is sincere about the spiritual path, it needs to point out over and over again its own limitations in its outer form. [... .]"
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/flPIG63ZhWM/m/8xOvqxhQSasJ
[...] My opinion, Dave, since you have expressed yours above, is that the only person we should try to keep on a hook is our own selves. We should take full responsibility for everything we create, and we should try to be conscious and aware of our own decisions. This leaves us free to continue on with our lives, and not get hung up on how someone else's choices might have affected our lives, which are things of the past. [... .]"
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/GBwgDKAztbI/m/zAJCPXv-SP8J
"Strange as it may seem today, back when Paul began writing his books, such as The Far Country, the creation of myth was still seen as a necessary requirement of most spiritual paths."
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/GBwgDKAztbI/m/zAJCPXv-SP8J
"[...] I, for one, love the differences. That we would make different choices, I think is fascinating and makes for interesting discussions and debates. But the painting of each other as if one side is wrong, and the other is right, does surprise me, because I think we all have learned early on in our spiritual search, that the Social Conscience, where the wordly ideas of right and wrong are bandied about, must be abandoned if we are going to find real Truth. [... .]"
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/XyM6OgFl9zI/m/dHTqQiQmD3wJ
"[...] And what do I care if he painted fiction to express Truth, or blurred the facts to create his background scenery? It's like a friend who once had a dream where Jesus told him: 'It's all poetry.' [... .]"
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/Ojkgn_PP-5Q/m/muTw3THZQ9cJ
"[...] I, personally, have found I can get along fine with most groups, and can take the good with the bad. And while there are often many moments when I can't find anything special or remarkable about the written materials of ECKANKAR, I still find that special spark in the hearts of many ECKists (and former ECKists as well.) I think, after all these years, I've come to see that the real teachings reside there, in the hearts of the chelas, and their little extra generosity that they show, the little lighter walk they have, the little bit of naivete and desire to share, these are signs something is living and moving between them. And so, I guess, I find I care a great deal about them. [... .]"

https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/Ojkgn_PP-5Q/m/muTw3THZQ9cJ
Henosis Sage
2021-01-27 02:05:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Etznab
Post by Etznab
Post by Etznab
1997
"[...] But the bottom line is: So what? What difference does it really make? Lane suggests that if Paul lied about this, then how can you trust anything he says? Well, for one thing, who says you should trust anything Paul said?
"[...] And once you've gained that connection, who cares if it is fiction? It is certainly fiction of a whole different sort. A fiction that is truer than fact.
"[...] The origins of living teachings cannot be found by tracing historical events, but only by making contact with the higher states of consciousness from where they spring.
"[...] As a story of historical fact, Paul's story may not hold up very well. But that is not what it was meant for. It was intended for connecting us to a reality that is more real than any historical fact. [... .]"
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/MvIbPqSXZNc/m/ZTE7Djvb9zAJ
"[...] The point is not whether these beings were historical personages. The problem Lane has here is that he is trying to use the principles of Logical Deduction to judge spiritual realities. The principles of Logic, as they were established in the 18th and 19th centuries, claim that all statements are either true, false or meaningless. Clearly David is trying to fit Paul's writings into one of these three categories.
"[...] Therefore, it is possible to prove these statements for ourselves inwardly, not publicly, and this is the foundation of the teachings of ECKANKAR. So when we say that we believe this statement is true, we are talking about a truth beyond physical proofs.
"[...] The lesson here, for the spiritual student, is to become aware of the difference between what one knows through one's own personal experience, and what one has accepted on faith from outer teaching. Once you have had inner encounters with the ECK Masters or other spiritual realities, it is important to establish within yourself whether this is a reality or not. If you cannot, you leave yourself open to the challenges of the scientists or the lawyers.
"[...] This means that, when studying the works of ECKANKAR, we should take what we find is useful and not worry about the rest. Remember, the writings of the ECK Masters are aimed at many different states of consciousness. [... .]"
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/kP7ml_Rh9lY/m/6CaYXfGiC4wJ
"[...] The only area that I don't think looks good is Paul's lack of crediting his sources, to the point of making it look like he, or Rebazar Tarzs, was the original source. This looks especially bad these days, since copyright law has become much more controlled and publicized. However, it doesn't appear to have been much of a problem while Paul was alive. [... .]"
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/Er0VHRTk_sc/m/NQYn-wQ00FIJ
1998
"Paul fictionalized his accounts, because he was an experienced writer and knew that stories were far more effective than lectures. Paul set himself up as simply a seeker, in The Tiger's Fang, because he knew from experience that people learn very differently from those who come across as authorities, than from someone who they can identify with, who is describing a personal experience. He created the dialog with Rebazar Tarzs, in The Far Country, because this was a much more effective and interesting way of communicating, than simply pontificating."
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.religion.eckankar/cHzE0Cdcfy4/M6ZJAPyvTNsJ
"[...] And no matter what anyone might do, organizations will always look after themselves. Organizations can not act any other way when they are leading.
"This is why the inner connection to Spirit, the ECK, is the only thing that we can rely on. [...]
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/flPIG63ZhWM/m/8xOvqxhQSasJ
"And if the teaching is sincere about the spiritual path, it needs to point out over and over again its own limitations in its outer form. [... .]"
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/flPIG63ZhWM/m/8xOvqxhQSasJ
[...] My opinion, Dave, since you have expressed yours above, is that the only person we should try to keep on a hook is our own selves. We should take full responsibility for everything we create, and we should try to be conscious and aware of our own decisions. This leaves us free to continue on with our lives, and not get hung up on how someone else's choices might have affected our lives, which are things of the past. [... .]"
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/GBwgDKAztbI/m/zAJCPXv-SP8J
"Strange as it may seem today, back when Paul began writing his books, such as The Far Country, the creation of myth was still seen as a necessary requirement of most spiritual paths."
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/GBwgDKAztbI/m/zAJCPXv-SP8J
"[...] I, for one, love the differences. That we would make different choices, I think is fascinating and makes for interesting discussions and debates. But the painting of each other as if one side is wrong, and the other is right, does surprise me, because I think we all have learned early on in our spiritual search, that the Social Conscience, where the wordly ideas of right and wrong are bandied about, must be abandoned if we are going to find real Truth. [... .]"
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/XyM6OgFl9zI/m/dHTqQiQmD3wJ
"[...] And what do I care if he painted fiction to express Truth, or blurred the facts to create his background scenery? It's like a friend who once had a dream where Jesus told him: 'It's all poetry.' [... .]"
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/Ojkgn_PP-5Q/m/muTw3THZQ9cJ
"[...] I, personally, have found I can get along fine with most groups, and can take the good with the bad. And while there are often many moments when I can't find anything special or remarkable about the written materials of ECKANKAR, I still find that special spark in the hearts of many ECKists (and former ECKists as well.) I think, after all these years, I've come to see that the real teachings reside there, in the hearts of the chelas, and their little extra generosity that they show, the little lighter walk they have, the little bit of naivete and desire to share, these are signs something is living and moving between them. And so, I guess, I find I care a great deal about them. [... .]"
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/Ojkgn_PP-5Q/m/muTw3THZQ9cJ
REGARDING ....."these are signs something is living and moving between them."

LUDICROUS FANCIFUL FICTIONAL OPINIONATED HOGWASH.

AKA SPIN AND DELUSIONAL BELIEFS OF WHAT WHERE WHY AND HOW.
Etznab
2021-01-30 02:18:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Henosis Sage
Post by Etznab
Post by Etznab
Post by Etznab
1997
"[...] But the bottom line is: So what? What difference does it really make? Lane suggests that if Paul lied about this, then how can you trust anything he says? Well, for one thing, who says you should trust anything Paul said?
"[...] And once you've gained that connection, who cares if it is fiction? It is certainly fiction of a whole different sort. A fiction that is truer than fact.
"[...] The origins of living teachings cannot be found by tracing historical events, but only by making contact with the higher states of consciousness from where they spring.
"[...] As a story of historical fact, Paul's story may not hold up very well. But that is not what it was meant for. It was intended for connecting us to a reality that is more real than any historical fact. [... .]"
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/MvIbPqSXZNc/m/ZTE7Djvb9zAJ
"[...] The point is not whether these beings were historical personages. The problem Lane has here is that he is trying to use the principles of Logical Deduction to judge spiritual realities. The principles of Logic, as they were established in the 18th and 19th centuries, claim that all statements are either true, false or meaningless. Clearly David is trying to fit Paul's writings into one of these three categories.
"[...] Therefore, it is possible to prove these statements for ourselves inwardly, not publicly, and this is the foundation of the teachings of ECKANKAR. So when we say that we believe this statement is true, we are talking about a truth beyond physical proofs.
"[...] The lesson here, for the spiritual student, is to become aware of the difference between what one knows through one's own personal experience, and what one has accepted on faith from outer teaching. Once you have had inner encounters with the ECK Masters or other spiritual realities, it is important to establish within yourself whether this is a reality or not. If you cannot, you leave yourself open to the challenges of the scientists or the lawyers.
"[...] This means that, when studying the works of ECKANKAR, we should take what we find is useful and not worry about the rest. Remember, the writings of the ECK Masters are aimed at many different states of consciousness. [... .]"
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/kP7ml_Rh9lY/m/6CaYXfGiC4wJ
"[...] The only area that I don't think looks good is Paul's lack of crediting his sources, to the point of making it look like he, or Rebazar Tarzs, was the original source. This looks especially bad these days, since copyright law has become much more controlled and publicized. However, it doesn't appear to have been much of a problem while Paul was alive. [... .]"
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/Er0VHRTk_sc/m/NQYn-wQ00FIJ
1998
"Paul fictionalized his accounts, because he was an experienced writer and knew that stories were far more effective than lectures. Paul set himself up as simply a seeker, in The Tiger's Fang, because he knew from experience that people learn very differently from those who come across as authorities, than from someone who they can identify with, who is describing a personal experience. He created the dialog with Rebazar Tarzs, in The Far Country, because this was a much more effective and interesting way of communicating, than simply pontificating."
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.religion.eckankar/cHzE0Cdcfy4/M6ZJAPyvTNsJ
"[...] And no matter what anyone might do, organizations will always look after themselves. Organizations can not act any other way when they are leading.
"This is why the inner connection to Spirit, the ECK, is the only thing that we can rely on. [...]
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/flPIG63ZhWM/m/8xOvqxhQSasJ
"And if the teaching is sincere about the spiritual path, it needs to point out over and over again its own limitations in its outer form. [... .]"
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/flPIG63ZhWM/m/8xOvqxhQSasJ
[...] My opinion, Dave, since you have expressed yours above, is that the only person we should try to keep on a hook is our own selves. We should take full responsibility for everything we create, and we should try to be conscious and aware of our own decisions. This leaves us free to continue on with our lives, and not get hung up on how someone else's choices might have affected our lives, which are things of the past. [... .]"
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/GBwgDKAztbI/m/zAJCPXv-SP8J
"Strange as it may seem today, back when Paul began writing his books, such as The Far Country, the creation of myth was still seen as a necessary requirement of most spiritual paths."
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/GBwgDKAztbI/m/zAJCPXv-SP8J
"[...] I, for one, love the differences. That we would make different choices, I think is fascinating and makes for interesting discussions and debates. But the painting of each other as if one side is wrong, and the other is right, does surprise me, because I think we all have learned early on in our spiritual search, that the Social Conscience, where the wordly ideas of right and wrong are bandied about, must be abandoned if we are going to find real Truth. [... .]"
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/XyM6OgFl9zI/m/dHTqQiQmD3wJ
"[...] And what do I care if he painted fiction to express Truth, or blurred the facts to create his background scenery? It's like a friend who once had a dream where Jesus told him: 'It's all poetry.' [... .]"
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/Ojkgn_PP-5Q/m/muTw3THZQ9cJ
"[...] I, personally, have found I can get along fine with most groups, and can take the good with the bad. And while there are often many moments when I can't find anything special or remarkable about the written materials of ECKANKAR, I still find that special spark in the hearts of many ECKists (and former ECKists as well.) I think, after all these years, I've come to see that the real teachings reside there, in the hearts of the chelas, and their little extra generosity that they show, the little lighter walk they have, the little bit of naivete and desire to share, these are signs something is living and moving between them. And so, I guess, I find I care a great deal about them. [... .]"
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/Ojkgn_PP-5Q/m/muTw3THZQ9cJ
REGARDING ....."these are signs something is living and moving between them."
LUDICROUS FANCIFUL FICTIONAL OPINIONATED HOGWASH.
AKA SPIN AND DELUSIONAL BELIEFS OF WHAT WHERE WHY AND HOW.
"[...] The only area that I don't think looks good is Paul's lack of crediting his sources, to the point of making it look like he, or Rebazar Tarzs, was the original source. [... .]"

Oh really Doug? You think so?

Maybe come back here some day, Doug, and tell us WHY that doesn't look good to you. I'll be waiting.
Etznab
2021-01-31 15:41:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Etznab
Post by Henosis Sage
Post by Etznab
Post by Etznab
Post by Etznab
1997
"[...] But the bottom line is: So what? What difference does it really make? Lane suggests that if Paul lied about this, then how can you trust anything he says? Well, for one thing, who says you should trust anything Paul said?
"[...] And once you've gained that connection, who cares if it is fiction? It is certainly fiction of a whole different sort. A fiction that is truer than fact.
"[...] The origins of living teachings cannot be found by tracing historical events, but only by making contact with the higher states of consciousness from where they spring.
"[...] As a story of historical fact, Paul's story may not hold up very well. But that is not what it was meant for. It was intended for connecting us to a reality that is more real than any historical fact. [... .]"
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/MvIbPqSXZNc/m/ZTE7Djvb9zAJ
"[...] The point is not whether these beings were historical personages. The problem Lane has here is that he is trying to use the principles of Logical Deduction to judge spiritual realities. The principles of Logic, as they were established in the 18th and 19th centuries, claim that all statements are either true, false or meaningless. Clearly David is trying to fit Paul's writings into one of these three categories.
"[...] Therefore, it is possible to prove these statements for ourselves inwardly, not publicly, and this is the foundation of the teachings of ECKANKAR. So when we say that we believe this statement is true, we are talking about a truth beyond physical proofs.
"[...] The lesson here, for the spiritual student, is to become aware of the difference between what one knows through one's own personal experience, and what one has accepted on faith from outer teaching. Once you have had inner encounters with the ECK Masters or other spiritual realities, it is important to establish within yourself whether this is a reality or not. If you cannot, you leave yourself open to the challenges of the scientists or the lawyers.
"[...] This means that, when studying the works of ECKANKAR, we should take what we find is useful and not worry about the rest. Remember, the writings of the ECK Masters are aimed at many different states of consciousness. [... .]"
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/kP7ml_Rh9lY/m/6CaYXfGiC4wJ
"[...] The only area that I don't think looks good is Paul's lack of crediting his sources, to the point of making it look like he, or Rebazar Tarzs, was the original source. This looks especially bad these days, since copyright law has become much more controlled and publicized. However, it doesn't appear to have been much of a problem while Paul was alive. [... .]"
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/Er0VHRTk_sc/m/NQYn-wQ00FIJ
1998
"Paul fictionalized his accounts, because he was an experienced writer and knew that stories were far more effective than lectures. Paul set himself up as simply a seeker, in The Tiger's Fang, because he knew from experience that people learn very differently from those who come across as authorities, than from someone who they can identify with, who is describing a personal experience. He created the dialog with Rebazar Tarzs, in The Far Country, because this was a much more effective and interesting way of communicating, than simply pontificating."
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.religion.eckankar/cHzE0Cdcfy4/M6ZJAPyvTNsJ
"[...] And no matter what anyone might do, organizations will always look after themselves. Organizations can not act any other way when they are leading.
"This is why the inner connection to Spirit, the ECK, is the only thing that we can rely on. [...]
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/flPIG63ZhWM/m/8xOvqxhQSasJ
"And if the teaching is sincere about the spiritual path, it needs to point out over and over again its own limitations in its outer form. [... .]"
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/flPIG63ZhWM/m/8xOvqxhQSasJ
[...] My opinion, Dave, since you have expressed yours above, is that the only person we should try to keep on a hook is our own selves. We should take full responsibility for everything we create, and we should try to be conscious and aware of our own decisions. This leaves us free to continue on with our lives, and not get hung up on how someone else's choices might have affected our lives, which are things of the past. [... .]"
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/GBwgDKAztbI/m/zAJCPXv-SP8J
"Strange as it may seem today, back when Paul began writing his books, such as The Far Country, the creation of myth was still seen as a necessary requirement of most spiritual paths."
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/GBwgDKAztbI/m/zAJCPXv-SP8J
"[...] I, for one, love the differences. That we would make different choices, I think is fascinating and makes for interesting discussions and debates. But the painting of each other as if one side is wrong, and the other is right, does surprise me, because I think we all have learned early on in our spiritual search, that the Social Conscience, where the wordly ideas of right and wrong are bandied about, must be abandoned if we are going to find real Truth. [... .]"
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/XyM6OgFl9zI/m/dHTqQiQmD3wJ
"[...] And what do I care if he painted fiction to express Truth, or blurred the facts to create his background scenery? It's like a friend who once had a dream where Jesus told him: 'It's all poetry.' [... .]"
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/Ojkgn_PP-5Q/m/muTw3THZQ9cJ
"[...] I, personally, have found I can get along fine with most groups, and can take the good with the bad. And while there are often many moments when I can't find anything special or remarkable about the written materials of ECKANKAR, I still find that special spark in the hearts of many ECKists (and former ECKists as well.) I think, after all these years, I've come to see that the real teachings reside there, in the hearts of the chelas, and their little extra generosity that they show, the little lighter walk they have, the little bit of naivete and desire to share, these are signs something is living and moving between them. And so, I guess, I find I care a great deal about them. [... .]"
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/Ojkgn_PP-5Q/m/muTw3THZQ9cJ
REGARDING ....."these are signs something is living and moving between them."
LUDICROUS FANCIFUL FICTIONAL OPINIONATED HOGWASH.
AKA SPIN AND DELUSIONAL BELIEFS OF WHAT WHERE WHY AND HOW.
"[...] The only area that I don't think looks good is Paul's lack of crediting his sources, to the point of making it look like he, or Rebazar Tarzs, was the original source. [... .]"
Oh really Doug? You think so?
Maybe come back here some day, Doug, and tell us WHY that doesn't look good to you. I'll be waiting.
And when Doug writes: "the ECK Masters" [PLURAL] ... for example

"[...] Remember, the writings of the ECK Masters are aimed at many different states of consciousness. [... .]"

https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/kP7ml_Rh9lY/m/6CaYXfGiC4wJ

he should surely remember to clarify and explain the difference between a REAL person and an IMAGINARY and / or FICTIONAL character! Not try to lump them all together as if they are somehow equal. They certainly ARE NOT!
Etznab
2021-02-06 15:07:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Etznab
Post by Etznab
Post by Henosis Sage
Post by Etznab
Post by Etznab
Post by Etznab
1997
"[...] But the bottom line is: So what? What difference does it really make? Lane suggests that if Paul lied about this, then how can you trust anything he says? Well, for one thing, who says you should trust anything Paul said?
"[...] And once you've gained that connection, who cares if it is fiction? It is certainly fiction of a whole different sort. A fiction that is truer than fact.
"[...] The origins of living teachings cannot be found by tracing historical events, but only by making contact with the higher states of consciousness from where they spring.
"[...] As a story of historical fact, Paul's story may not hold up very well. But that is not what it was meant for. It was intended for connecting us to a reality that is more real than any historical fact. [... .]"
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/MvIbPqSXZNc/m/ZTE7Djvb9zAJ
"[...] The point is not whether these beings were historical personages. The problem Lane has here is that he is trying to use the principles of Logical Deduction to judge spiritual realities. The principles of Logic, as they were established in the 18th and 19th centuries, claim that all statements are either true, false or meaningless. Clearly David is trying to fit Paul's writings into one of these three categories.
"[...] Therefore, it is possible to prove these statements for ourselves inwardly, not publicly, and this is the foundation of the teachings of ECKANKAR. So when we say that we believe this statement is true, we are talking about a truth beyond physical proofs.
"[...] The lesson here, for the spiritual student, is to become aware of the difference between what one knows through one's own personal experience, and what one has accepted on faith from outer teaching. Once you have had inner encounters with the ECK Masters or other spiritual realities, it is important to establish within yourself whether this is a reality or not. If you cannot, you leave yourself open to the challenges of the scientists or the lawyers.
"[...] This means that, when studying the works of ECKANKAR, we should take what we find is useful and not worry about the rest. Remember, the writings of the ECK Masters are aimed at many different states of consciousness. [... .]"
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/kP7ml_Rh9lY/m/6CaYXfGiC4wJ
"[...] The only area that I don't think looks good is Paul's lack of crediting his sources, to the point of making it look like he, or Rebazar Tarzs, was the original source. This looks especially bad these days, since copyright law has become much more controlled and publicized. However, it doesn't appear to have been much of a problem while Paul was alive. [... .]"
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/Er0VHRTk_sc/m/NQYn-wQ00FIJ
1998
"Paul fictionalized his accounts, because he was an experienced writer and knew that stories were far more effective than lectures. Paul set himself up as simply a seeker, in The Tiger's Fang, because he knew from experience that people learn very differently from those who come across as authorities, than from someone who they can identify with, who is describing a personal experience. He created the dialog with Rebazar Tarzs, in The Far Country, because this was a much more effective and interesting way of communicating, than simply pontificating."
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.religion.eckankar/cHzE0Cdcfy4/M6ZJAPyvTNsJ
"[...] And no matter what anyone might do, organizations will always look after themselves. Organizations can not act any other way when they are leading.
"This is why the inner connection to Spirit, the ECK, is the only thing that we can rely on. [...]
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/flPIG63ZhWM/m/8xOvqxhQSasJ
"And if the teaching is sincere about the spiritual path, it needs to point out over and over again its own limitations in its outer form. [... .]"
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/flPIG63ZhWM/m/8xOvqxhQSasJ
[...] My opinion, Dave, since you have expressed yours above, is that the only person we should try to keep on a hook is our own selves. We should take full responsibility for everything we create, and we should try to be conscious and aware of our own decisions. This leaves us free to continue on with our lives, and not get hung up on how someone else's choices might have affected our lives, which are things of the past. [... .]"
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/GBwgDKAztbI/m/zAJCPXv-SP8J
"Strange as it may seem today, back when Paul began writing his books, such as The Far Country, the creation of myth was still seen as a necessary requirement of most spiritual paths."
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/GBwgDKAztbI/m/zAJCPXv-SP8J
"[...] I, for one, love the differences. That we would make different choices, I think is fascinating and makes for interesting discussions and debates. But the painting of each other as if one side is wrong, and the other is right, does surprise me, because I think we all have learned early on in our spiritual search, that the Social Conscience, where the wordly ideas of right and wrong are bandied about, must be abandoned if we are going to find real Truth. [... .]"
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/XyM6OgFl9zI/m/dHTqQiQmD3wJ
"[...] And what do I care if he painted fiction to express Truth, or blurred the facts to create his background scenery? It's like a friend who once had a dream where Jesus told him: 'It's all poetry.' [... .]"
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/Ojkgn_PP-5Q/m/muTw3THZQ9cJ
"[...] I, personally, have found I can get along fine with most groups, and can take the good with the bad. And while there are often many moments when I can't find anything special or remarkable about the written materials of ECKANKAR, I still find that special spark in the hearts of many ECKists (and former ECKists as well.) I think, after all these years, I've come to see that the real teachings reside there, in the hearts of the chelas, and their little extra generosity that they show, the little lighter walk they have, the little bit of naivete and desire to share, these are signs something is living and moving between them. And so, I guess, I find I care a great deal about them. [... .]"
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/Ojkgn_PP-5Q/m/muTw3THZQ9cJ
REGARDING ....."these are signs something is living and moving between them."
LUDICROUS FANCIFUL FICTIONAL OPINIONATED HOGWASH.
AKA SPIN AND DELUSIONAL BELIEFS OF WHAT WHERE WHY AND HOW.
"[...] The only area that I don't think looks good is Paul's lack of crediting his sources, to the point of making it look like he, or Rebazar Tarzs, was the original source. [... .]"
Oh really Doug? You think so?
Maybe come back here some day, Doug, and tell us WHY that doesn't look good to you. I'll be waiting.
And when Doug writes: "the ECK Masters" [PLURAL] ... for example
"[...] Remember, the writings of the ECK Masters are aimed at many different states of consciousness. [... .]"
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/kP7ml_Rh9lY/m/6CaYXfGiC4wJ
he should surely remember to clarify and explain the difference between a REAL person and an IMAGINARY and / or FICTIONAL character! Not try to lump them all together as if they are somehow equal. They certainly ARE NOT!
"[...] Lurk: 'Okay. What do you consider Harolds responsibilities to be to the students?"

"Doug: 'That he sincerely do his best to help guide his students along the spiritual path. That he try to communicate the importance of where one places one's attention, and the importance of consciously choosing and controlling one's attention. That he try to relate the subtle dangers of the spiritual path, and the personal responsibility that must be taken by every student if they expect to succeed spiritually. How's that for a few responsibilities?

"As for holding Harold accountable, I would never recommend anyone talk about holding anyone accountable for anything, unless you are a parent talking about your child, or a manager talking about your employees, etc.

"If the people you are discussing are not your personal responsibility, how can you discuss holding them accountable? That's the height of hypocrisy.' [... .]"

https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/80FC_-yE4Ts/m/Fzmg9yyd-gAJ
Etznab
2021-02-06 15:14:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Etznab
Post by Etznab
Post by Henosis Sage
Post by Etznab
Post by Etznab
Post by Etznab
1997
"[...] But the bottom line is: So what? What difference does it really make? Lane suggests that if Paul lied about this, then how can you trust anything he says? Well, for one thing, who says you should trust anything Paul said?
"[...] And once you've gained that connection, who cares if it is fiction? It is certainly fiction of a whole different sort. A fiction that is truer than fact.
"[...] The origins of living teachings cannot be found by tracing historical events, but only by making contact with the higher states of consciousness from where they spring.
"[...] As a story of historical fact, Paul's story may not hold up very well. But that is not what it was meant for. It was intended for connecting us to a reality that is more real than any historical fact. [... .]"
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/MvIbPqSXZNc/m/ZTE7Djvb9zAJ
"[...] The point is not whether these beings were historical personages. The problem Lane has here is that he is trying to use the principles of Logical Deduction to judge spiritual realities. The principles of Logic, as they were established in the 18th and 19th centuries, claim that all statements are either true, false or meaningless. Clearly David is trying to fit Paul's writings into one of these three categories.
"[...] Therefore, it is possible to prove these statements for ourselves inwardly, not publicly, and this is the foundation of the teachings of ECKANKAR. So when we say that we believe this statement is true, we are talking about a truth beyond physical proofs.
"[...] The lesson here, for the spiritual student, is to become aware of the difference between what one knows through one's own personal experience, and what one has accepted on faith from outer teaching. Once you have had inner encounters with the ECK Masters or other spiritual realities, it is important to establish within yourself whether this is a reality or not. If you cannot, you leave yourself open to the challenges of the scientists or the lawyers.
"[...] This means that, when studying the works of ECKANKAR, we should take what we find is useful and not worry about the rest. Remember, the writings of the ECK Masters are aimed at many different states of consciousness. [... .]"
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/kP7ml_Rh9lY/m/6CaYXfGiC4wJ
"[...] The only area that I don't think looks good is Paul's lack of crediting his sources, to the point of making it look like he, or Rebazar Tarzs, was the original source. This looks especially bad these days, since copyright law has become much more controlled and publicized. However, it doesn't appear to have been much of a problem while Paul was alive. [... .]"
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/Er0VHRTk_sc/m/NQYn-wQ00FIJ
1998
"Paul fictionalized his accounts, because he was an experienced writer and knew that stories were far more effective than lectures. Paul set himself up as simply a seeker, in The Tiger's Fang, because he knew from experience that people learn very differently from those who come across as authorities, than from someone who they can identify with, who is describing a personal experience. He created the dialog with Rebazar Tarzs, in The Far Country, because this was a much more effective and interesting way of communicating, than simply pontificating."
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.religion.eckankar/cHzE0Cdcfy4/M6ZJAPyvTNsJ
"[...] And no matter what anyone might do, organizations will always look after themselves. Organizations can not act any other way when they are leading.
"This is why the inner connection to Spirit, the ECK, is the only thing that we can rely on. [...]
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/flPIG63ZhWM/m/8xOvqxhQSasJ
"And if the teaching is sincere about the spiritual path, it needs to point out over and over again its own limitations in its outer form. [... .]"
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/flPIG63ZhWM/m/8xOvqxhQSasJ
[...] My opinion, Dave, since you have expressed yours above, is that the only person we should try to keep on a hook is our own selves. We should take full responsibility for everything we create, and we should try to be conscious and aware of our own decisions. This leaves us free to continue on with our lives, and not get hung up on how someone else's choices might have affected our lives, which are things of the past. [... .]"
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/GBwgDKAztbI/m/zAJCPXv-SP8J
"Strange as it may seem today, back when Paul began writing his books, such as The Far Country, the creation of myth was still seen as a necessary requirement of most spiritual paths."
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/GBwgDKAztbI/m/zAJCPXv-SP8J
"[...] I, for one, love the differences. That we would make different choices, I think is fascinating and makes for interesting discussions and debates. But the painting of each other as if one side is wrong, and the other is right, does surprise me, because I think we all have learned early on in our spiritual search, that the Social Conscience, where the wordly ideas of right and wrong are bandied about, must be abandoned if we are going to find real Truth. [... .]"
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/XyM6OgFl9zI/m/dHTqQiQmD3wJ
"[...] And what do I care if he painted fiction to express Truth, or blurred the facts to create his background scenery? It's like a friend who once had a dream where Jesus told him: 'It's all poetry.' [... .]"
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/Ojkgn_PP-5Q/m/muTw3THZQ9cJ
"[...] I, personally, have found I can get along fine with most groups, and can take the good with the bad. And while there are often many moments when I can't find anything special or remarkable about the written materials of ECKANKAR, I still find that special spark in the hearts of many ECKists (and former ECKists as well.) I think, after all these years, I've come to see that the real teachings reside there, in the hearts of the chelas, and their little extra generosity that they show, the little lighter walk they have, the little bit of naivete and desire to share, these are signs something is living and moving between them. And so, I guess, I find I care a great deal about them. [... .]"
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/Ojkgn_PP-5Q/m/muTw3THZQ9cJ
REGARDING ....."these are signs something is living and moving between them."
LUDICROUS FANCIFUL FICTIONAL OPINIONATED HOGWASH.
AKA SPIN AND DELUSIONAL BELIEFS OF WHAT WHERE WHY AND HOW.
"[...] The only area that I don't think looks good is Paul's lack of crediting his sources, to the point of making it look like he, or Rebazar Tarzs, was the original source. [... .]"
Oh really Doug? You think so?
Maybe come back here some day, Doug, and tell us WHY that doesn't look good to you. I'll be waiting.
And when Doug writes: "the ECK Masters" [PLURAL] ... for example
"[...] Remember, the writings of the ECK Masters are aimed at many different states of consciousness. [... .]"
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/kP7ml_Rh9lY/m/6CaYXfGiC4wJ
he should surely remember to clarify and explain the difference between a REAL person and an IMAGINARY and / or FICTIONAL character! Not try to lump them all together as if they are somehow equal. They certainly ARE NOT!
Okay. What do you consider Harolds responsibilities to be to the
students?
What are some criteria in which he can be held accountable?
Doug:

"That he sincerely do his best to help guide his students along the spiritual
path. That he try to communicate the importance of where one places one's
attention, and the importance of consciously choosing and controlling one's
attention. That he try to relate the subtle dangers of the spiritual path, and
the personal responsibility that must be taken by every student if they expect
to succeed spiritually. How's that for a few responsibilities?

"As for holding Harold accountable, I would never recommend anyone talk about
holding anyone accountable for anything, unless you are a parent talking about
your child, or a manager talking about your employees, etc. [... .]"

https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/80FC_-yE4Ts/m/Fzmg9yyd-gAJ
Etznab
2021-02-06 15:16:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Etznab
Post by Etznab
Post by Etznab
Post by Henosis Sage
Post by Etznab
Post by Etznab
Post by Etznab
1997
"[...] But the bottom line is: So what? What difference does it really make? Lane suggests that if Paul lied about this, then how can you trust anything he says? Well, for one thing, who says you should trust anything Paul said?
"[...] And once you've gained that connection, who cares if it is fiction? It is certainly fiction of a whole different sort. A fiction that is truer than fact.
"[...] The origins of living teachings cannot be found by tracing historical events, but only by making contact with the higher states of consciousness from where they spring.
"[...] As a story of historical fact, Paul's story may not hold up very well. But that is not what it was meant for. It was intended for connecting us to a reality that is more real than any historical fact. [... .]"
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/MvIbPqSXZNc/m/ZTE7Djvb9zAJ
"[...] The point is not whether these beings were historical personages. The problem Lane has here is that he is trying to use the principles of Logical Deduction to judge spiritual realities. The principles of Logic, as they were established in the 18th and 19th centuries, claim that all statements are either true, false or meaningless. Clearly David is trying to fit Paul's writings into one of these three categories.
"[...] Therefore, it is possible to prove these statements for ourselves inwardly, not publicly, and this is the foundation of the teachings of ECKANKAR. So when we say that we believe this statement is true, we are talking about a truth beyond physical proofs.
"[...] The lesson here, for the spiritual student, is to become aware of the difference between what one knows through one's own personal experience, and what one has accepted on faith from outer teaching. Once you have had inner encounters with the ECK Masters or other spiritual realities, it is important to establish within yourself whether this is a reality or not. If you cannot, you leave yourself open to the challenges of the scientists or the lawyers.
"[...] This means that, when studying the works of ECKANKAR, we should take what we find is useful and not worry about the rest. Remember, the writings of the ECK Masters are aimed at many different states of consciousness. [... .]"
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/kP7ml_Rh9lY/m/6CaYXfGiC4wJ
"[...] The only area that I don't think looks good is Paul's lack of crediting his sources, to the point of making it look like he, or Rebazar Tarzs, was the original source. This looks especially bad these days, since copyright law has become much more controlled and publicized. However, it doesn't appear to have been much of a problem while Paul was alive. [... .]"
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/Er0VHRTk_sc/m/NQYn-wQ00FIJ
1998
"Paul fictionalized his accounts, because he was an experienced writer and knew that stories were far more effective than lectures. Paul set himself up as simply a seeker, in The Tiger's Fang, because he knew from experience that people learn very differently from those who come across as authorities, than from someone who they can identify with, who is describing a personal experience. He created the dialog with Rebazar Tarzs, in The Far Country, because this was a much more effective and interesting way of communicating, than simply pontificating."
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.religion.eckankar/cHzE0Cdcfy4/M6ZJAPyvTNsJ
"[...] And no matter what anyone might do, organizations will always look after themselves. Organizations can not act any other way when they are leading.
"This is why the inner connection to Spirit, the ECK, is the only thing that we can rely on. [...]
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/flPIG63ZhWM/m/8xOvqxhQSasJ
"And if the teaching is sincere about the spiritual path, it needs to point out over and over again its own limitations in its outer form. [... .]"
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/flPIG63ZhWM/m/8xOvqxhQSasJ
[...] My opinion, Dave, since you have expressed yours above, is that the only person we should try to keep on a hook is our own selves. We should take full responsibility for everything we create, and we should try to be conscious and aware of our own decisions. This leaves us free to continue on with our lives, and not get hung up on how someone else's choices might have affected our lives, which are things of the past. [... .]"
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/GBwgDKAztbI/m/zAJCPXv-SP8J
"Strange as it may seem today, back when Paul began writing his books, such as The Far Country, the creation of myth was still seen as a necessary requirement of most spiritual paths."
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/GBwgDKAztbI/m/zAJCPXv-SP8J
"[...] I, for one, love the differences. That we would make different choices, I think is fascinating and makes for interesting discussions and debates. But the painting of each other as if one side is wrong, and the other is right, does surprise me, because I think we all have learned early on in our spiritual search, that the Social Conscience, where the wordly ideas of right and wrong are bandied about, must be abandoned if we are going to find real Truth. [... .]"
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/XyM6OgFl9zI/m/dHTqQiQmD3wJ
"[...] And what do I care if he painted fiction to express Truth, or blurred the facts to create his background scenery? It's like a friend who once had a dream where Jesus told him: 'It's all poetry.' [... .]"
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/Ojkgn_PP-5Q/m/muTw3THZQ9cJ
"[...] I, personally, have found I can get along fine with most groups, and can take the good with the bad. And while there are often many moments when I can't find anything special or remarkable about the written materials of ECKANKAR, I still find that special spark in the hearts of many ECKists (and former ECKists as well.) I think, after all these years, I've come to see that the real teachings reside there, in the hearts of the chelas, and their little extra generosity that they show, the little lighter walk they have, the little bit of naivete and desire to share, these are signs something is living and moving between them. And so, I guess, I find I care a great deal about them. [... .]"
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/Ojkgn_PP-5Q/m/muTw3THZQ9cJ
REGARDING ....."these are signs something is living and moving between them."
LUDICROUS FANCIFUL FICTIONAL OPINIONATED HOGWASH.
AKA SPIN AND DELUSIONAL BELIEFS OF WHAT WHERE WHY AND HOW.
"[...] The only area that I don't think looks good is Paul's lack of crediting his sources, to the point of making it look like he, or Rebazar Tarzs, was the original source. [... .]"
Oh really Doug? You think so?
Maybe come back here some day, Doug, and tell us WHY that doesn't look good to you. I'll be waiting.
And when Doug writes: "the ECK Masters" [PLURAL] ... for example
"[...] Remember, the writings of the ECK Masters are aimed at many different states of consciousness. [... .]"
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/kP7ml_Rh9lY/m/6CaYXfGiC4wJ
he should surely remember to clarify and explain the difference between a REAL person and an IMAGINARY and / or FICTIONAL character! Not try to lump them all together as if they are somehow equal. They certainly ARE NOT!
Okay. What do you consider Harolds responsibilities to be to the
students?
What are some criteria in which he can be held accountable?
"That he sincerely do his best to help guide his students along the spiritual
path. That he try to communicate the importance of where one places one's
attention, and the importance of consciously choosing and controlling one's
attention. That he try to relate the subtle dangers of the spiritual path, and
the personal responsibility that must be taken by every student if they expect
to succeed spiritually. How's that for a few responsibilities?
"As for holding Harold accountable, I would never recommend anyone talk about
holding anyone accountable for anything, unless you are a parent talking about
your child, or a manager talking about your employees, etc. [... .]"
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/80FC_-yE4Ts/m/Fzmg9yyd-gAJ
accountable (adj.)
"answerable," literally "liable to be called to account," c. 1400 (mid-14c. in Anglo-French), from Old French acontable; see account (v.) + -able. Related: Accountably.

https://www.etymonline.com/search?q=accountable
Etznab
2021-02-11 00:46:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Etznab
Post by Etznab
Post by Etznab
Post by Etznab
Post by Henosis Sage
Post by Etznab
Post by Etznab
Post by Etznab
1997
"[...] But the bottom line is: So what? What difference does it really make? Lane suggests that if Paul lied about this, then how can you trust anything he says? Well, for one thing, who says you should trust anything Paul said?
"[...] And once you've gained that connection, who cares if it is fiction? It is certainly fiction of a whole different sort. A fiction that is truer than fact.
"[...] The origins of living teachings cannot be found by tracing historical events, but only by making contact with the higher states of consciousness from where they spring.
"[...] As a story of historical fact, Paul's story may not hold up very well. But that is not what it was meant for. It was intended for connecting us to a reality that is more real than any historical fact. [... .]"
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/MvIbPqSXZNc/m/ZTE7Djvb9zAJ
"[...] The point is not whether these beings were historical personages. The problem Lane has here is that he is trying to use the principles of Logical Deduction to judge spiritual realities. The principles of Logic, as they were established in the 18th and 19th centuries, claim that all statements are either true, false or meaningless. Clearly David is trying to fit Paul's writings into one of these three categories.
"[...] Therefore, it is possible to prove these statements for ourselves inwardly, not publicly, and this is the foundation of the teachings of ECKANKAR. So when we say that we believe this statement is true, we are talking about a truth beyond physical proofs.
"[...] The lesson here, for the spiritual student, is to become aware of the difference between what one knows through one's own personal experience, and what one has accepted on faith from outer teaching. Once you have had inner encounters with the ECK Masters or other spiritual realities, it is important to establish within yourself whether this is a reality or not. If you cannot, you leave yourself open to the challenges of the scientists or the lawyers.
"[...] This means that, when studying the works of ECKANKAR, we should take what we find is useful and not worry about the rest. Remember, the writings of the ECK Masters are aimed at many different states of consciousness. [... .]"
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/kP7ml_Rh9lY/m/6CaYXfGiC4wJ
"[...] The only area that I don't think looks good is Paul's lack of crediting his sources, to the point of making it look like he, or Rebazar Tarzs, was the original source. This looks especially bad these days, since copyright law has become much more controlled and publicized. However, it doesn't appear to have been much of a problem while Paul was alive. [... .]"
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/Er0VHRTk_sc/m/NQYn-wQ00FIJ
1998
"Paul fictionalized his accounts, because he was an experienced writer and knew that stories were far more effective than lectures. Paul set himself up as simply a seeker, in The Tiger's Fang, because he knew from experience that people learn very differently from those who come across as authorities, than from someone who they can identify with, who is describing a personal experience. He created the dialog with Rebazar Tarzs, in The Far Country, because this was a much more effective and interesting way of communicating, than simply pontificating."
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.religion.eckankar/cHzE0Cdcfy4/M6ZJAPyvTNsJ
"[...] And no matter what anyone might do, organizations will always look after themselves. Organizations can not act any other way when they are leading.
"This is why the inner connection to Spirit, the ECK, is the only thing that we can rely on. [...]
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/flPIG63ZhWM/m/8xOvqxhQSasJ
"And if the teaching is sincere about the spiritual path, it needs to point out over and over again its own limitations in its outer form. [... .]"
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/flPIG63ZhWM/m/8xOvqxhQSasJ
[...] My opinion, Dave, since you have expressed yours above, is that the only person we should try to keep on a hook is our own selves. We should take full responsibility for everything we create, and we should try to be conscious and aware of our own decisions. This leaves us free to continue on with our lives, and not get hung up on how someone else's choices might have affected our lives, which are things of the past. [... .]"
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/GBwgDKAztbI/m/zAJCPXv-SP8J
"Strange as it may seem today, back when Paul began writing his books, such as The Far Country, the creation of myth was still seen as a necessary requirement of most spiritual paths."
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/GBwgDKAztbI/m/zAJCPXv-SP8J
"[...] I, for one, love the differences. That we would make different choices, I think is fascinating and makes for interesting discussions and debates. But the painting of each other as if one side is wrong, and the other is right, does surprise me, because I think we all have learned early on in our spiritual search, that the Social Conscience, where the wordly ideas of right and wrong are bandied about, must be abandoned if we are going to find real Truth. [... .]"
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/XyM6OgFl9zI/m/dHTqQiQmD3wJ
"[...] And what do I care if he painted fiction to express Truth, or blurred the facts to create his background scenery? It's like a friend who once had a dream where Jesus told him: 'It's all poetry.' [... .]"
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/Ojkgn_PP-5Q/m/muTw3THZQ9cJ
"[...] I, personally, have found I can get along fine with most groups, and can take the good with the bad. And while there are often many moments when I can't find anything special or remarkable about the written materials of ECKANKAR, I still find that special spark in the hearts of many ECKists (and former ECKists as well.) I think, after all these years, I've come to see that the real teachings reside there, in the hearts of the chelas, and their little extra generosity that they show, the little lighter walk they have, the little bit of naivete and desire to share, these are signs something is living and moving between them. And so, I guess, I find I care a great deal about them. [... .]"
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/Ojkgn_PP-5Q/m/muTw3THZQ9cJ
REGARDING ....."these are signs something is living and moving between them."
LUDICROUS FANCIFUL FICTIONAL OPINIONATED HOGWASH.
AKA SPIN AND DELUSIONAL BELIEFS OF WHAT WHERE WHY AND HOW.
"[...] The only area that I don't think looks good is Paul's lack of crediting his sources, to the point of making it look like he, or Rebazar Tarzs, was the original source. [... .]"
Oh really Doug? You think so?
Maybe come back here some day, Doug, and tell us WHY that doesn't look good to you. I'll be waiting.
And when Doug writes: "the ECK Masters" [PLURAL] ... for example
"[...] Remember, the writings of the ECK Masters are aimed at many different states of consciousness. [... .]"
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/kP7ml_Rh9lY/m/6CaYXfGiC4wJ
he should surely remember to clarify and explain the difference between a REAL person and an IMAGINARY and / or FICTIONAL character! Not try to lump them all together as if they are somehow equal. They certainly ARE NOT!
Okay. What do you consider Harolds responsibilities to be to the
students?
What are some criteria in which he can be held accountable?
"That he sincerely do his best to help guide his students along the spiritual
path. That he try to communicate the importance of where one places one's
attention, and the importance of consciously choosing and controlling one's
attention. That he try to relate the subtle dangers of the spiritual path, and
the personal responsibility that must be taken by every student if they expect
to succeed spiritually. How's that for a few responsibilities?
"As for holding Harold accountable, I would never recommend anyone talk about
holding anyone accountable for anything, unless you are a parent talking about
your child, or a manager talking about your employees, etc. [... .]"
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/80FC_-yE4Ts/m/Fzmg9yyd-gAJ
accountable (adj.)
"answerable," literally "liable to be called to account," c. 1400 (mid-14c. in Anglo-French), from Old French acontable; see account (v.) + -able. Related: Accountably.
https://www.etymonline.com/search?q=accountable
Is it just me, or does anybody else think Doug was obsessed with the motives and intentions thing? because it seems to me this is his default. IOW (in so many words) "It is not me, not Paul, not Harold or others so much as it is YOU who are wrong because you got the other person's motives and / or intentions wrong." I've seen Doug argue how others didn't / don't know the intentions of Paul Twitchell. And now I find Doug was harping on this kind of thing many, many years ago already when it comes to his very own self!

"[...] Do you really think you know what my motives are better than I do? Do you really think you know me that well that you can say you see my filters? Personally, I can only say you are not even close, but you would get a lot closer if you just accepted what I was saying as I'm saying it. [... .]"

https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/80FC_-yE4Ts/m/tBp6wGp63uIJ

The thing is, it looks to me like if you squeeze Doug really hard, and don't give him any wiggle room, then the truth does come out. (Like the classic case once where he said he didn't do yes or no questions, but then he did.) For example:

"[...] My reason for not wanting to criticize Harold is quite simple. I see Harold as a friend. A dear friend. I treat all of my friends the same way. I have a hard time pointing out their faults, and when I feel that I should, I will do so in private. [... .]"

https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/80FC_-yE4Ts/m/tBp6wGp63uIJ
Etznab
2021-02-21 15:00:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Etznab
Post by Etznab
Post by Etznab
Post by Etznab
Post by Etznab
Post by Henosis Sage
Post by Etznab
Post by Etznab
Post by Etznab
1997
"[...] But the bottom line is: So what? What difference does it really make? Lane suggests that if Paul lied about this, then how can you trust anything he says? Well, for one thing, who says you should trust anything Paul said?
"[...] And once you've gained that connection, who cares if it is fiction? It is certainly fiction of a whole different sort. A fiction that is truer than fact.
"[...] The origins of living teachings cannot be found by tracing historical events, but only by making contact with the higher states of consciousness from where they spring.
"[...] As a story of historical fact, Paul's story may not hold up very well. But that is not what it was meant for. It was intended for connecting us to a reality that is more real than any historical fact. [... .]"
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/MvIbPqSXZNc/m/ZTE7Djvb9zAJ
"[...] The point is not whether these beings were historical personages. The problem Lane has here is that he is trying to use the principles of Logical Deduction to judge spiritual realities. The principles of Logic, as they were established in the 18th and 19th centuries, claim that all statements are either true, false or meaningless. Clearly David is trying to fit Paul's writings into one of these three categories.
"[...] Therefore, it is possible to prove these statements for ourselves inwardly, not publicly, and this is the foundation of the teachings of ECKANKAR. So when we say that we believe this statement is true, we are talking about a truth beyond physical proofs.
"[...] The lesson here, for the spiritual student, is to become aware of the difference between what one knows through one's own personal experience, and what one has accepted on faith from outer teaching. Once you have had inner encounters with the ECK Masters or other spiritual realities, it is important to establish within yourself whether this is a reality or not. If you cannot, you leave yourself open to the challenges of the scientists or the lawyers.
"[...] This means that, when studying the works of ECKANKAR, we should take what we find is useful and not worry about the rest. Remember, the writings of the ECK Masters are aimed at many different states of consciousness. [... .]"
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/kP7ml_Rh9lY/m/6CaYXfGiC4wJ
"[...] The only area that I don't think looks good is Paul's lack of crediting his sources, to the point of making it look like he, or Rebazar Tarzs, was the original source. This looks especially bad these days, since copyright law has become much more controlled and publicized. However, it doesn't appear to have been much of a problem while Paul was alive. [... .]"
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/Er0VHRTk_sc/m/NQYn-wQ00FIJ
1998
"Paul fictionalized his accounts, because he was an experienced writer and knew that stories were far more effective than lectures. Paul set himself up as simply a seeker, in The Tiger's Fang, because he knew from experience that people learn very differently from those who come across as authorities, than from someone who they can identify with, who is describing a personal experience. He created the dialog with Rebazar Tarzs, in The Far Country, because this was a much more effective and interesting way of communicating, than simply pontificating."
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.religion.eckankar/cHzE0Cdcfy4/M6ZJAPyvTNsJ
"[...] And no matter what anyone might do, organizations will always look after themselves. Organizations can not act any other way when they are leading.
"This is why the inner connection to Spirit, the ECK, is the only thing that we can rely on. [...]
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/flPIG63ZhWM/m/8xOvqxhQSasJ
"And if the teaching is sincere about the spiritual path, it needs to point out over and over again its own limitations in its outer form. [... .]"
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/flPIG63ZhWM/m/8xOvqxhQSasJ
[...] My opinion, Dave, since you have expressed yours above, is that the only person we should try to keep on a hook is our own selves. We should take full responsibility for everything we create, and we should try to be conscious and aware of our own decisions. This leaves us free to continue on with our lives, and not get hung up on how someone else's choices might have affected our lives, which are things of the past. [... .]"
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/GBwgDKAztbI/m/zAJCPXv-SP8J
"Strange as it may seem today, back when Paul began writing his books, such as The Far Country, the creation of myth was still seen as a necessary requirement of most spiritual paths."
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/GBwgDKAztbI/m/zAJCPXv-SP8J
"[...] I, for one, love the differences. That we would make different choices, I think is fascinating and makes for interesting discussions and debates. But the painting of each other as if one side is wrong, and the other is right, does surprise me, because I think we all have learned early on in our spiritual search, that the Social Conscience, where the wordly ideas of right and wrong are bandied about, must be abandoned if we are going to find real Truth. [... .]"
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/XyM6OgFl9zI/m/dHTqQiQmD3wJ
"[...] And what do I care if he painted fiction to express Truth, or blurred the facts to create his background scenery? It's like a friend who once had a dream where Jesus told him: 'It's all poetry.' [... .]"
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/Ojkgn_PP-5Q/m/muTw3THZQ9cJ
"[...] I, personally, have found I can get along fine with most groups, and can take the good with the bad. And while there are often many moments when I can't find anything special or remarkable about the written materials of ECKANKAR, I still find that special spark in the hearts of many ECKists (and former ECKists as well.) I think, after all these years, I've come to see that the real teachings reside there, in the hearts of the chelas, and their little extra generosity that they show, the little lighter walk they have, the little bit of naivete and desire to share, these are signs something is living and moving between them. And so, I guess, I find I care a great deal about them. [... .]"
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/Ojkgn_PP-5Q/m/muTw3THZQ9cJ
REGARDING ....."these are signs something is living and moving between them."
LUDICROUS FANCIFUL FICTIONAL OPINIONATED HOGWASH.
AKA SPIN AND DELUSIONAL BELIEFS OF WHAT WHERE WHY AND HOW.
"[...] The only area that I don't think looks good is Paul's lack of crediting his sources, to the point of making it look like he, or Rebazar Tarzs, was the original source. [... .]"
Oh really Doug? You think so?
Maybe come back here some day, Doug, and tell us WHY that doesn't look good to you. I'll be waiting.
And when Doug writes: "the ECK Masters" [PLURAL] ... for example
"[...] Remember, the writings of the ECK Masters are aimed at many different states of consciousness. [... .]"
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/kP7ml_Rh9lY/m/6CaYXfGiC4wJ
he should surely remember to clarify and explain the difference between a REAL person and an IMAGINARY and / or FICTIONAL character! Not try to lump them all together as if they are somehow equal. They certainly ARE NOT!
Okay. What do you consider Harolds responsibilities to be to the
students?
What are some criteria in which he can be held accountable?
"That he sincerely do his best to help guide his students along the spiritual
path. That he try to communicate the importance of where one places one's
attention, and the importance of consciously choosing and controlling one's
attention. That he try to relate the subtle dangers of the spiritual path, and
the personal responsibility that must be taken by every student if they expect
to succeed spiritually. How's that for a few responsibilities?
"As for holding Harold accountable, I would never recommend anyone talk about
holding anyone accountable for anything, unless you are a parent talking about
your child, or a manager talking about your employees, etc. [... .]"
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/80FC_-yE4Ts/m/Fzmg9yyd-gAJ
accountable (adj.)
"answerable," literally "liable to be called to account," c. 1400 (mid-14c. in Anglo-French), from Old French acontable; see account (v.) + -able. Related: Accountably.
https://www.etymonline.com/search?q=accountable
Is it just me, or does anybody else think Doug was obsessed with the motives and intentions thing? because it seems to me this is his default. IOW (in so many words) "It is not me, not Paul, not Harold or others so much as it is YOU who are wrong because you got the other person's motives and / or intentions wrong." I've seen Doug argue how others didn't / don't know the intentions of Paul Twitchell. And now I find Doug was harping on this kind of thing many, many years ago already when it comes to his very own self!
"[...] Do you really think you know what my motives are better than I do? Do you really think you know me that well that you can say you see my filters? Personally, I can only say you are not even close, but you would get a lot closer if you just accepted what I was saying as I'm saying it. [... .]"
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/80FC_-yE4Ts/m/tBp6wGp63uIJ
"[...] My reason for not wanting to criticize Harold is quite simple. I see Harold as a friend. A dear friend. I treat all of my friends the same way. I have a hard time pointing out their faults, and when I feel that I should, I will do so in private. [... .]"
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/80FC_-yE4Ts/m/tBp6wGp63uIJ
"But rather than focusing, again, on whether to blame Paul or not, or to judge what he wrote and whether it was good or bad, when not simply stay focused on the writings themselves? Isn't that the real matter here?"

https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/80FC_-yE4Ts/m/-qKcA_LUBwYJ
Etznab
2021-02-26 13:21:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Etznab
Post by Etznab
Post by Etznab
Post by Etznab
Post by Etznab
Post by Etznab
Post by Henosis Sage
Post by Etznab
Post by Etznab
Post by Etznab
1997
"[...] But the bottom line is: So what? What difference does it really make? Lane suggests that if Paul lied about this, then how can you trust anything he says? Well, for one thing, who says you should trust anything Paul said?
"[...] And once you've gained that connection, who cares if it is fiction? It is certainly fiction of a whole different sort. A fiction that is truer than fact.
"[...] The origins of living teachings cannot be found by tracing historical events, but only by making contact with the higher states of consciousness from where they spring.
"[...] As a story of historical fact, Paul's story may not hold up very well. But that is not what it was meant for. It was intended for connecting us to a reality that is more real than any historical fact. [... .]"
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/MvIbPqSXZNc/m/ZTE7Djvb9zAJ
"[...] The point is not whether these beings were historical personages. The problem Lane has here is that he is trying to use the principles of Logical Deduction to judge spiritual realities. The principles of Logic, as they were established in the 18th and 19th centuries, claim that all statements are either true, false or meaningless. Clearly David is trying to fit Paul's writings into one of these three categories.
"[...] Therefore, it is possible to prove these statements for ourselves inwardly, not publicly, and this is the foundation of the teachings of ECKANKAR. So when we say that we believe this statement is true, we are talking about a truth beyond physical proofs.
"[...] The lesson here, for the spiritual student, is to become aware of the difference between what one knows through one's own personal experience, and what one has accepted on faith from outer teaching. Once you have had inner encounters with the ECK Masters or other spiritual realities, it is important to establish within yourself whether this is a reality or not. If you cannot, you leave yourself open to the challenges of the scientists or the lawyers.
"[...] This means that, when studying the works of ECKANKAR, we should take what we find is useful and not worry about the rest. Remember, the writings of the ECK Masters are aimed at many different states of consciousness. [... .]"
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/kP7ml_Rh9lY/m/6CaYXfGiC4wJ
"[...] The only area that I don't think looks good is Paul's lack of crediting his sources, to the point of making it look like he, or Rebazar Tarzs, was the original source. This looks especially bad these days, since copyright law has become much more controlled and publicized. However, it doesn't appear to have been much of a problem while Paul was alive. [... .]"
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/Er0VHRTk_sc/m/NQYn-wQ00FIJ
1998
"Paul fictionalized his accounts, because he was an experienced writer and knew that stories were far more effective than lectures. Paul set himself up as simply a seeker, in The Tiger's Fang, because he knew from experience that people learn very differently from those who come across as authorities, than from someone who they can identify with, who is describing a personal experience. He created the dialog with Rebazar Tarzs, in The Far Country, because this was a much more effective and interesting way of communicating, than simply pontificating."
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.religion.eckankar/cHzE0Cdcfy4/M6ZJAPyvTNsJ
"[...] And no matter what anyone might do, organizations will always look after themselves. Organizations can not act any other way when they are leading.
"This is why the inner connection to Spirit, the ECK, is the only thing that we can rely on. [...]
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/flPIG63ZhWM/m/8xOvqxhQSasJ
"And if the teaching is sincere about the spiritual path, it needs to point out over and over again its own limitations in its outer form. [... .]"
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/flPIG63ZhWM/m/8xOvqxhQSasJ
[...] My opinion, Dave, since you have expressed yours above, is that the only person we should try to keep on a hook is our own selves. We should take full responsibility for everything we create, and we should try to be conscious and aware of our own decisions. This leaves us free to continue on with our lives, and not get hung up on how someone else's choices might have affected our lives, which are things of the past. [... .]"
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/GBwgDKAztbI/m/zAJCPXv-SP8J
"Strange as it may seem today, back when Paul began writing his books, such as The Far Country, the creation of myth was still seen as a necessary requirement of most spiritual paths."
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/GBwgDKAztbI/m/zAJCPXv-SP8J
"[...] I, for one, love the differences. That we would make different choices, I think is fascinating and makes for interesting discussions and debates. But the painting of each other as if one side is wrong, and the other is right, does surprise me, because I think we all have learned early on in our spiritual search, that the Social Conscience, where the wordly ideas of right and wrong are bandied about, must be abandoned if we are going to find real Truth. [... .]"
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/XyM6OgFl9zI/m/dHTqQiQmD3wJ
"[...] And what do I care if he painted fiction to express Truth, or blurred the facts to create his background scenery? It's like a friend who once had a dream where Jesus told him: 'It's all poetry.' [... .]"
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/Ojkgn_PP-5Q/m/muTw3THZQ9cJ
"[...] I, personally, have found I can get along fine with most groups, and can take the good with the bad. And while there are often many moments when I can't find anything special or remarkable about the written materials of ECKANKAR, I still find that special spark in the hearts of many ECKists (and former ECKists as well.) I think, after all these years, I've come to see that the real teachings reside there, in the hearts of the chelas, and their little extra generosity that they show, the little lighter walk they have, the little bit of naivete and desire to share, these are signs something is living and moving between them. And so, I guess, I find I care a great deal about them. [... .]"
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/Ojkgn_PP-5Q/m/muTw3THZQ9cJ
REGARDING ....."these are signs something is living and moving between them."
LUDICROUS FANCIFUL FICTIONAL OPINIONATED HOGWASH.
AKA SPIN AND DELUSIONAL BELIEFS OF WHAT WHERE WHY AND HOW.
"[...] The only area that I don't think looks good is Paul's lack of crediting his sources, to the point of making it look like he, or Rebazar Tarzs, was the original source. [... .]"
Oh really Doug? You think so?
Maybe come back here some day, Doug, and tell us WHY that doesn't look good to you. I'll be waiting.
And when Doug writes: "the ECK Masters" [PLURAL] ... for example
"[...] Remember, the writings of the ECK Masters are aimed at many different states of consciousness. [... .]"
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/kP7ml_Rh9lY/m/6CaYXfGiC4wJ
he should surely remember to clarify and explain the difference between a REAL person and an IMAGINARY and / or FICTIONAL character! Not try to lump them all together as if they are somehow equal. They certainly ARE NOT!
Okay. What do you consider Harolds responsibilities to be to the
students?
What are some criteria in which he can be held accountable?
"That he sincerely do his best to help guide his students along the spiritual
path. That he try to communicate the importance of where one places one's
attention, and the importance of consciously choosing and controlling one's
attention. That he try to relate the subtle dangers of the spiritual path, and
the personal responsibility that must be taken by every student if they expect
to succeed spiritually. How's that for a few responsibilities?
"As for holding Harold accountable, I would never recommend anyone talk about
holding anyone accountable for anything, unless you are a parent talking about
your child, or a manager talking about your employees, etc. [... .]"
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/80FC_-yE4Ts/m/Fzmg9yyd-gAJ
accountable (adj.)
"answerable," literally "liable to be called to account," c. 1400 (mid-14c. in Anglo-French), from Old French acontable; see account (v.) + -able. Related: Accountably.
https://www.etymonline.com/search?q=accountable
Is it just me, or does anybody else think Doug was obsessed with the motives and intentions thing? because it seems to me this is his default. IOW (in so many words) "It is not me, not Paul, not Harold or others so much as it is YOU who are wrong because you got the other person's motives and / or intentions wrong." I've seen Doug argue how others didn't / don't know the intentions of Paul Twitchell. And now I find Doug was harping on this kind of thing many, many years ago already when it comes to his very own self!
"[...] Do you really think you know what my motives are better than I do? Do you really think you know me that well that you can say you see my filters? Personally, I can only say you are not even close, but you would get a lot closer if you just accepted what I was saying as I'm saying it. [... .]"
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/80FC_-yE4Ts/m/tBp6wGp63uIJ
"[...] My reason for not wanting to criticize Harold is quite simple. I see Harold as a friend. A dear friend. I treat all of my friends the same way. I have a hard time pointing out their faults, and when I feel that I should, I will do so in private. [... .]"
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/80FC_-yE4Ts/m/tBp6wGp63uIJ
"But rather than focusing, again, on whether to blame Paul or not, or to judge what he wrote and whether it was good or bad, when not simply stay focused on the writings themselves? Isn't that the real matter here?"
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/80FC_-yE4Ts/m/-qKcA_LUBwYJ
Since looking back at earlier posts to find Doug Marman's position about plagiarism and pseudo history, I found something interesting. IMO he was an "apologist", appearing not to be, since at least the 1990s. Another example:

"[...] Harold specifically gave a number of talks and wrote a number of articles where he explains that Paul was more of a Compiler than original author of the teachings. That was quite a dramatic statement when he made it. Harold talked about Paul's younger life, his stretching the stories of his own past, and how he was often promoting himself in his career as a writer. Harold may have been more polite than you would have been, but I think the points Harold made were definitely dealing with these issues and not in any way making excuses or offering mystical explanations.

"But, once again, why are we making Paul or Harold the issue? Are they really the issue? Doesn't it make more sense to talk about the impacts of the teachings themselves, rather than trying to turn the spiritual path into a personal matter?

"I've often heard the ECK critics on a.r.e. complain about ECKist trying to make them into the point of the discussion. Well, isn't focusing on Paul's or Harold's personal motivations similar, since it is implying that this is a valid way of judging the teachings themselves? [... .]"

Based on: post from December 23rd, 1998 (last post on page)

https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/80FC_-yE4Ts/m/1-YZdEjoP7QJ
Etznab
2021-03-13 14:14:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Etznab
Post by Etznab
Post by Etznab
Post by Etznab
Post by Etznab
Post by Etznab
Post by Etznab
Post by Henosis Sage
Post by Etznab
Post by Etznab
Post by Etznab
1997
"[...] But the bottom line is: So what? What difference does it really make? Lane suggests that if Paul lied about this, then how can you trust anything he says? Well, for one thing, who says you should trust anything Paul said?
"[...] And once you've gained that connection, who cares if it is fiction? It is certainly fiction of a whole different sort. A fiction that is truer than fact.
"[...] The origins of living teachings cannot be found by tracing historical events, but only by making contact with the higher states of consciousness from where they spring.
"[...] As a story of historical fact, Paul's story may not hold up very well. But that is not what it was meant for. It was intended for connecting us to a reality that is more real than any historical fact. [... .]"
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/MvIbPqSXZNc/m/ZTE7Djvb9zAJ
"[...] The point is not whether these beings were historical personages. The problem Lane has here is that he is trying to use the principles of Logical Deduction to judge spiritual realities. The principles of Logic, as they were established in the 18th and 19th centuries, claim that all statements are either true, false or meaningless. Clearly David is trying to fit Paul's writings into one of these three categories.
"[...] Therefore, it is possible to prove these statements for ourselves inwardly, not publicly, and this is the foundation of the teachings of ECKANKAR. So when we say that we believe this statement is true, we are talking about a truth beyond physical proofs.
"[...] The lesson here, for the spiritual student, is to become aware of the difference between what one knows through one's own personal experience, and what one has accepted on faith from outer teaching. Once you have had inner encounters with the ECK Masters or other spiritual realities, it is important to establish within yourself whether this is a reality or not. If you cannot, you leave yourself open to the challenges of the scientists or the lawyers.
"[...] This means that, when studying the works of ECKANKAR, we should take what we find is useful and not worry about the rest. Remember, the writings of the ECK Masters are aimed at many different states of consciousness. [... .]"
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/kP7ml_Rh9lY/m/6CaYXfGiC4wJ
"[...] The only area that I don't think looks good is Paul's lack of crediting his sources, to the point of making it look like he, or Rebazar Tarzs, was the original source. This looks especially bad these days, since copyright law has become much more controlled and publicized. However, it doesn't appear to have been much of a problem while Paul was alive. [... .]"
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/Er0VHRTk_sc/m/NQYn-wQ00FIJ
1998
"Paul fictionalized his accounts, because he was an experienced writer and knew that stories were far more effective than lectures. Paul set himself up as simply a seeker, in The Tiger's Fang, because he knew from experience that people learn very differently from those who come across as authorities, than from someone who they can identify with, who is describing a personal experience. He created the dialog with Rebazar Tarzs, in The Far Country, because this was a much more effective and interesting way of communicating, than simply pontificating."
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.religion.eckankar/cHzE0Cdcfy4/M6ZJAPyvTNsJ
"[...] And no matter what anyone might do, organizations will always look after themselves. Organizations can not act any other way when they are leading.
"This is why the inner connection to Spirit, the ECK, is the only thing that we can rely on. [...]
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/flPIG63ZhWM/m/8xOvqxhQSasJ
"And if the teaching is sincere about the spiritual path, it needs to point out over and over again its own limitations in its outer form. [... .]"
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/flPIG63ZhWM/m/8xOvqxhQSasJ
[...] My opinion, Dave, since you have expressed yours above, is that the only person we should try to keep on a hook is our own selves. We should take full responsibility for everything we create, and we should try to be conscious and aware of our own decisions. This leaves us free to continue on with our lives, and not get hung up on how someone else's choices might have affected our lives, which are things of the past. [... .]"
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/GBwgDKAztbI/m/zAJCPXv-SP8J
"Strange as it may seem today, back when Paul began writing his books, such as The Far Country, the creation of myth was still seen as a necessary requirement of most spiritual paths."
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/GBwgDKAztbI/m/zAJCPXv-SP8J
"[...] I, for one, love the differences. That we would make different choices, I think is fascinating and makes for interesting discussions and debates. But the painting of each other as if one side is wrong, and the other is right, does surprise me, because I think we all have learned early on in our spiritual search, that the Social Conscience, where the wordly ideas of right and wrong are bandied about, must be abandoned if we are going to find real Truth. [... .]"
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/XyM6OgFl9zI/m/dHTqQiQmD3wJ
"[...] And what do I care if he painted fiction to express Truth, or blurred the facts to create his background scenery? It's like a friend who once had a dream where Jesus told him: 'It's all poetry.' [... .]"
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/Ojkgn_PP-5Q/m/muTw3THZQ9cJ
"[...] I, personally, have found I can get along fine with most groups, and can take the good with the bad. And while there are often many moments when I can't find anything special or remarkable about the written materials of ECKANKAR, I still find that special spark in the hearts of many ECKists (and former ECKists as well.) I think, after all these years, I've come to see that the real teachings reside there, in the hearts of the chelas, and their little extra generosity that they show, the little lighter walk they have, the little bit of naivete and desire to share, these are signs something is living and moving between them. And so, I guess, I find I care a great deal about them. [... .]"
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/Ojkgn_PP-5Q/m/muTw3THZQ9cJ
REGARDING ....."these are signs something is living and moving between them."
LUDICROUS FANCIFUL FICTIONAL OPINIONATED HOGWASH.
AKA SPIN AND DELUSIONAL BELIEFS OF WHAT WHERE WHY AND HOW.
"[...] The only area that I don't think looks good is Paul's lack of crediting his sources, to the point of making it look like he, or Rebazar Tarzs, was the original source. [... .]"
Oh really Doug? You think so?
Maybe come back here some day, Doug, and tell us WHY that doesn't look good to you. I'll be waiting.
And when Doug writes: "the ECK Masters" [PLURAL] ... for example
"[...] Remember, the writings of the ECK Masters are aimed at many different states of consciousness. [... .]"
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/kP7ml_Rh9lY/m/6CaYXfGiC4wJ
he should surely remember to clarify and explain the difference between a REAL person and an IMAGINARY and / or FICTIONAL character! Not try to lump them all together as if they are somehow equal. They certainly ARE NOT!
Okay. What do you consider Harolds responsibilities to be to the
students?
What are some criteria in which he can be held accountable?
"That he sincerely do his best to help guide his students along the spiritual
path. That he try to communicate the importance of where one places one's
attention, and the importance of consciously choosing and controlling one's
attention. That he try to relate the subtle dangers of the spiritual path, and
the personal responsibility that must be taken by every student if they expect
to succeed spiritually. How's that for a few responsibilities?
"As for holding Harold accountable, I would never recommend anyone talk about
holding anyone accountable for anything, unless you are a parent talking about
your child, or a manager talking about your employees, etc. [... .]"
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/80FC_-yE4Ts/m/Fzmg9yyd-gAJ
accountable (adj.)
"answerable," literally "liable to be called to account," c. 1400 (mid-14c. in Anglo-French), from Old French acontable; see account (v.) + -able. Related: Accountably.
https://www.etymonline.com/search?q=accountable
Is it just me, or does anybody else think Doug was obsessed with the motives and intentions thing? because it seems to me this is his default. IOW (in so many words) "It is not me, not Paul, not Harold or others so much as it is YOU who are wrong because you got the other person's motives and / or intentions wrong." I've seen Doug argue how others didn't / don't know the intentions of Paul Twitchell. And now I find Doug was harping on this kind of thing many, many years ago already when it comes to his very own self!
"[...] Do you really think you know what my motives are better than I do? Do you really think you know me that well that you can say you see my filters? Personally, I can only say you are not even close, but you would get a lot closer if you just accepted what I was saying as I'm saying it. [... .]"
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/80FC_-yE4Ts/m/tBp6wGp63uIJ
"[...] My reason for not wanting to criticize Harold is quite simple. I see Harold as a friend. A dear friend. I treat all of my friends the same way. I have a hard time pointing out their faults, and when I feel that I should, I will do so in private. [... .]"
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/80FC_-yE4Ts/m/tBp6wGp63uIJ
"But rather than focusing, again, on whether to blame Paul or not, or to judge what he wrote and whether it was good or bad, when not simply stay focused on the writings themselves? Isn't that the real matter here?"
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/80FC_-yE4Ts/m/-qKcA_LUBwYJ
"[...] Harold specifically gave a number of talks and wrote a number of articles where he explains that Paul was more of a Compiler than original author of the teachings. That was quite a dramatic statement when he made it. Harold talked about Paul's younger life, his stretching the stories of his own past, and how he was often promoting himself in his career as a writer. Harold may have been more polite than you would have been, but I think the points Harold made were definitely dealing with these issues and not in any way making excuses or offering mystical explanations.
"But, once again, why are we making Paul or Harold the issue? Are they really the issue? Doesn't it make more sense to talk about the impacts of the teachings themselves, rather than trying to turn the spiritual path into a personal matter?
"I've often heard the ECK critics on a.r.e. complain about ECKist trying to make them into the point of the discussion. Well, isn't focusing on Paul's or Harold's personal motivations similar, since it is implying that this is a valid way of judging the teachings themselves? [... .]"
Based on: post from December 23rd, 1998 (last post on page)
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/80FC_-yE4Ts/m/1-YZdEjoP7QJ
Doug Marman quotes from May, 1999.

"Paul used a technique known to writers as fictionalization. This is when an author would like to present a bunch of important information but doesn't want to do it in a boring, preaching way, but would rather present the material in a way that not only says something, but also shows something."

"As for the changing of the names, well Paul first offered these manuscripts to Kirpal for him to publish, to help spread the teaching under Kirpal's name. Kirpal rejected them. Paul chose to distance himself from Kirpal, rather than ride on the coattails of Sant Mat. This left Paul free to teach a number of things that are not taught within Sant Mat, and yet teach the ancient truth at the same time."

https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/K4e_6WSB3Ro/m/ZXj5BTxZD7QJ
Henosis Sage
2021-03-14 11:32:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Etznab
Post by Etznab
Post by Etznab
Post by Etznab
Post by Etznab
Post by Etznab
Post by Etznab
Post by Etznab
Post by Henosis Sage
Post by Etznab
Post by Etznab
Post by Etznab
1997
"[...] But the bottom line is: So what? What difference does it really make? Lane suggests that if Paul lied about this, then how can you trust anything he says? Well, for one thing, who says you should trust anything Paul said?
"[...] And once you've gained that connection, who cares if it is fiction? It is certainly fiction of a whole different sort. A fiction that is truer than fact.
"[...] The origins of living teachings cannot be found by tracing historical events, but only by making contact with the higher states of consciousness from where they spring.
"[...] As a story of historical fact, Paul's story may not hold up very well. But that is not what it was meant for. It was intended for connecting us to a reality that is more real than any historical fact. [... .]"
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/MvIbPqSXZNc/m/ZTE7Djvb9zAJ
"[...] The point is not whether these beings were historical personages. The problem Lane has here is that he is trying to use the principles of Logical Deduction to judge spiritual realities. The principles of Logic, as they were established in the 18th and 19th centuries, claim that all statements are either true, false or meaningless. Clearly David is trying to fit Paul's writings into one of these three categories.
"[...] Therefore, it is possible to prove these statements for ourselves inwardly, not publicly, and this is the foundation of the teachings of ECKANKAR. So when we say that we believe this statement is true, we are talking about a truth beyond physical proofs.
"[...] The lesson here, for the spiritual student, is to become aware of the difference between what one knows through one's own personal experience, and what one has accepted on faith from outer teaching. Once you have had inner encounters with the ECK Masters or other spiritual realities, it is important to establish within yourself whether this is a reality or not. If you cannot, you leave yourself open to the challenges of the scientists or the lawyers.
"[...] This means that, when studying the works of ECKANKAR, we should take what we find is useful and not worry about the rest. Remember, the writings of the ECK Masters are aimed at many different states of consciousness. [... .]"
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/kP7ml_Rh9lY/m/6CaYXfGiC4wJ
"[...] The only area that I don't think looks good is Paul's lack of crediting his sources, to the point of making it look like he, or Rebazar Tarzs, was the original source. This looks especially bad these days, since copyright law has become much more controlled and publicized. However, it doesn't appear to have been much of a problem while Paul was alive. [... .]"
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/Er0VHRTk_sc/m/NQYn-wQ00FIJ
1998
"Paul fictionalized his accounts, because he was an experienced writer and knew that stories were far more effective than lectures. Paul set himself up as simply a seeker, in The Tiger's Fang, because he knew from experience that people learn very differently from those who come across as authorities, than from someone who they can identify with, who is describing a personal experience. He created the dialog with Rebazar Tarzs, in The Far Country, because this was a much more effective and interesting way of communicating, than simply pontificating."
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.religion.eckankar/cHzE0Cdcfy4/M6ZJAPyvTNsJ
"[...] And no matter what anyone might do, organizations will always look after themselves. Organizations can not act any other way when they are leading.
"This is why the inner connection to Spirit, the ECK, is the only thing that we can rely on. [...]
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/flPIG63ZhWM/m/8xOvqxhQSasJ
"And if the teaching is sincere about the spiritual path, it needs to point out over and over again its own limitations in its outer form. [... .]"
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/flPIG63ZhWM/m/8xOvqxhQSasJ
[...] My opinion, Dave, since you have expressed yours above, is that the only person we should try to keep on a hook is our own selves. We should take full responsibility for everything we create, and we should try to be conscious and aware of our own decisions. This leaves us free to continue on with our lives, and not get hung up on how someone else's choices might have affected our lives, which are things of the past. [... .]"
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/GBwgDKAztbI/m/zAJCPXv-SP8J
"Strange as it may seem today, back when Paul began writing his books, such as The Far Country, the creation of myth was still seen as a necessary requirement of most spiritual paths."
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/GBwgDKAztbI/m/zAJCPXv-SP8J
"[...] I, for one, love the differences. That we would make different choices, I think is fascinating and makes for interesting discussions and debates. But the painting of each other as if one side is wrong, and the other is right, does surprise me, because I think we all have learned early on in our spiritual search, that the Social Conscience, where the wordly ideas of right and wrong are bandied about, must be abandoned if we are going to find real Truth. [... .]"
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/XyM6OgFl9zI/m/dHTqQiQmD3wJ
"[...] And what do I care if he painted fiction to express Truth, or blurred the facts to create his background scenery? It's like a friend who once had a dream where Jesus told him: 'It's all poetry.' [... .]"
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/Ojkgn_PP-5Q/m/muTw3THZQ9cJ
"[...] I, personally, have found I can get along fine with most groups, and can take the good with the bad. And while there are often many moments when I can't find anything special or remarkable about the written materials of ECKANKAR, I still find that special spark in the hearts of many ECKists (and former ECKists as well.) I think, after all these years, I've come to see that the real teachings reside there, in the hearts of the chelas, and their little extra generosity that they show, the little lighter walk they have, the little bit of naivete and desire to share, these are signs something is living and moving between them. And so, I guess, I find I care a great deal about them. [... .]"
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/Ojkgn_PP-5Q/m/muTw3THZQ9cJ
REGARDING ....."these are signs something is living and moving between them."
LUDICROUS FANCIFUL FICTIONAL OPINIONATED HOGWASH.
AKA SPIN AND DELUSIONAL BELIEFS OF WHAT WHERE WHY AND HOW.
"[...] The only area that I don't think looks good is Paul's lack of crediting his sources, to the point of making it look like he, or Rebazar Tarzs, was the original source. [... .]"
Oh really Doug? You think so?
Maybe come back here some day, Doug, and tell us WHY that doesn't look good to you. I'll be waiting.
And when Doug writes: "the ECK Masters" [PLURAL] ... for example
"[...] Remember, the writings of the ECK Masters are aimed at many different states of consciousness. [... .]"
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/kP7ml_Rh9lY/m/6CaYXfGiC4wJ
he should surely remember to clarify and explain the difference between a REAL person and an IMAGINARY and / or FICTIONAL character! Not try to lump them all together as if they are somehow equal. They certainly ARE NOT!
Okay. What do you consider Harolds responsibilities to be to the
students?
What are some criteria in which he can be held accountable?
"That he sincerely do his best to help guide his students along the spiritual
path. That he try to communicate the importance of where one places one's
attention, and the importance of consciously choosing and controlling one's
attention. That he try to relate the subtle dangers of the spiritual path, and
the personal responsibility that must be taken by every student if they expect
to succeed spiritually. How's that for a few responsibilities?
"As for holding Harold accountable, I would never recommend anyone talk about
holding anyone accountable for anything, unless you are a parent talking about
your child, or a manager talking about your employees, etc. [... .]"
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/80FC_-yE4Ts/m/Fzmg9yyd-gAJ
accountable (adj.)
"answerable," literally "liable to be called to account," c. 1400 (mid-14c. in Anglo-French), from Old French acontable; see account (v.) + -able. Related: Accountably.
https://www.etymonline.com/search?q=accountable
Is it just me, or does anybody else think Doug was obsessed with the motives and intentions thing? because it seems to me this is his default. IOW (in so many words) "It is not me, not Paul, not Harold or others so much as it is YOU who are wrong because you got the other person's motives and / or intentions wrong." I've seen Doug argue how others didn't / don't know the intentions of Paul Twitchell. And now I find Doug was harping on this kind of thing many, many years ago already when it comes to his very own self!
"[...] Do you really think you know what my motives are better than I do? Do you really think you know me that well that you can say you see my filters? Personally, I can only say you are not even close, but you would get a lot closer if you just accepted what I was saying as I'm saying it. [... .]"
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/80FC_-yE4Ts/m/tBp6wGp63uIJ
"[...] My reason for not wanting to criticize Harold is quite simple. I see Harold as a friend. A dear friend. I treat all of my friends the same way. I have a hard time pointing out their faults, and when I feel that I should, I will do so in private. [... .]"
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/80FC_-yE4Ts/m/tBp6wGp63uIJ
"But rather than focusing, again, on whether to blame Paul or not, or to judge what he wrote and whether it was good or bad, when not simply stay focused on the writings themselves? Isn't that the real matter here?"
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/80FC_-yE4Ts/m/-qKcA_LUBwYJ
"[...] Harold specifically gave a number of talks and wrote a number of articles where he explains that Paul was more of a Compiler than original author of the teachings. That was quite a dramatic statement when he made it. Harold talked about Paul's younger life, his stretching the stories of his own past, and how he was often promoting himself in his career as a writer. Harold may have been more polite than you would have been, but I think the points Harold made were definitely dealing with these issues and not in any way making excuses or offering mystical explanations.
"But, once again, why are we making Paul or Harold the issue? Are they really the issue? Doesn't it make more sense to talk about the impacts of the teachings themselves, rather than trying to turn the spiritual path into a personal matter?
"I've often heard the ECK critics on a.r.e. complain about ECKist trying to make them into the point of the discussion. Well, isn't focusing on Paul's or Harold's personal motivations similar, since it is implying that this is a valid way of judging the teachings themselves? [... .]"
Based on: post from December 23rd, 1998 (last post on page)
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/80FC_-yE4Ts/m/1-YZdEjoP7QJ
Doug Marman quotes from May, 1999.
"Paul used a technique known to writers as fictionalization. This is when an author would like to present a bunch of important information but doesn't want to do it in a boring, preaching way, but would rather present the material in a way that not only says something, but also shows something."
"As for the changing of the names, well Paul first offered these manuscripts to Kirpal for him to publish, to help spread the teaching under Kirpal's name. Kirpal rejected them. Paul chose to distance himself from Kirpal, rather than ride on the coattails of Sant Mat. This left Paul free to teach a number of things that are not taught within Sant Mat, and yet teach the ancient truth at the same time."
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/K4e_6WSB3Ro/m/ZXj5BTxZD7QJ
RE: Marman says: "Paul chose to distance himself from Kirpal, rather than ride on the coattails of Sant Mat. "

MEANING: Paul WAS FORCED to distance himself from Kirpal, rather than ride on the coattails of Sant Mat, AFTER HE WAS SUMMARILY REJECTED AND IGNORED BY KIRPAL SINGH WHO REFUSED TO SUPPORT HIM OR HIS IDEAS AND WRITINGS..... OR ALLOW TWITCHELL to MIS-USE HIS NAME without permission IN TWITCHELL'S PUBLIC RELATIONS PROMOTIONAL STUNTS and ADVERTISING of the early mid-1960s.
Etznab
2021-03-27 03:13:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Etznab
Post by Etznab
Post by Etznab
Post by Etznab
Post by Etznab
Post by Etznab
Post by Etznab
Post by Etznab
Post by Henosis Sage
Post by Etznab
Post by Etznab
Post by Etznab
1997
"[...] But the bottom line is: So what? What difference does it really make? Lane suggests that if Paul lied about this, then how can you trust anything he says? Well, for one thing, who says you should trust anything Paul said?
"[...] And once you've gained that connection, who cares if it is fiction? It is certainly fiction of a whole different sort. A fiction that is truer than fact.
"[...] The origins of living teachings cannot be found by tracing historical events, but only by making contact with the higher states of consciousness from where they spring.
"[...] As a story of historical fact, Paul's story may not hold up very well. But that is not what it was meant for. It was intended for connecting us to a reality that is more real than any historical fact. [... .]"
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/MvIbPqSXZNc/m/ZTE7Djvb9zAJ
"[...] The point is not whether these beings were historical personages. The problem Lane has here is that he is trying to use the principles of Logical Deduction to judge spiritual realities. The principles of Logic, as they were established in the 18th and 19th centuries, claim that all statements are either true, false or meaningless. Clearly David is trying to fit Paul's writings into one of these three categories.
"[...] Therefore, it is possible to prove these statements for ourselves inwardly, not publicly, and this is the foundation of the teachings of ECKANKAR. So when we say that we believe this statement is true, we are talking about a truth beyond physical proofs.
"[...] The lesson here, for the spiritual student, is to become aware of the difference between what one knows through one's own personal experience, and what one has accepted on faith from outer teaching. Once you have had inner encounters with the ECK Masters or other spiritual realities, it is important to establish within yourself whether this is a reality or not. If you cannot, you leave yourself open to the challenges of the scientists or the lawyers.
"[...] This means that, when studying the works of ECKANKAR, we should take what we find is useful and not worry about the rest. Remember, the writings of the ECK Masters are aimed at many different states of consciousness. [... .]"
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/kP7ml_Rh9lY/m/6CaYXfGiC4wJ
"[...] The only area that I don't think looks good is Paul's lack of crediting his sources, to the point of making it look like he, or Rebazar Tarzs, was the original source. This looks especially bad these days, since copyright law has become much more controlled and publicized. However, it doesn't appear to have been much of a problem while Paul was alive. [... .]"
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/Er0VHRTk_sc/m/NQYn-wQ00FIJ
1998
"Paul fictionalized his accounts, because he was an experienced writer and knew that stories were far more effective than lectures. Paul set himself up as simply a seeker, in The Tiger's Fang, because he knew from experience that people learn very differently from those who come across as authorities, than from someone who they can identify with, who is describing a personal experience. He created the dialog with Rebazar Tarzs, in The Far Country, because this was a much more effective and interesting way of communicating, than simply pontificating."
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.religion.eckankar/cHzE0Cdcfy4/M6ZJAPyvTNsJ
"[...] And no matter what anyone might do, organizations will always look after themselves. Organizations can not act any other way when they are leading.
"This is why the inner connection to Spirit, the ECK, is the only thing that we can rely on. [...]
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/flPIG63ZhWM/m/8xOvqxhQSasJ
"And if the teaching is sincere about the spiritual path, it needs to point out over and over again its own limitations in its outer form. [... .]"
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/flPIG63ZhWM/m/8xOvqxhQSasJ
[...] My opinion, Dave, since you have expressed yours above, is that the only person we should try to keep on a hook is our own selves. We should take full responsibility for everything we create, and we should try to be conscious and aware of our own decisions. This leaves us free to continue on with our lives, and not get hung up on how someone else's choices might have affected our lives, which are things of the past. [... .]"
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/GBwgDKAztbI/m/zAJCPXv-SP8J
"Strange as it may seem today, back when Paul began writing his books, such as The Far Country, the creation of myth was still seen as a necessary requirement of most spiritual paths."
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/GBwgDKAztbI/m/zAJCPXv-SP8J
"[...] I, for one, love the differences. That we would make different choices, I think is fascinating and makes for interesting discussions and debates. But the painting of each other as if one side is wrong, and the other is right, does surprise me, because I think we all have learned early on in our spiritual search, that the Social Conscience, where the wordly ideas of right and wrong are bandied about, must be abandoned if we are going to find real Truth. [... .]"
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/XyM6OgFl9zI/m/dHTqQiQmD3wJ
"[...] And what do I care if he painted fiction to express Truth, or blurred the facts to create his background scenery? It's like a friend who once had a dream where Jesus told him: 'It's all poetry.' [... .]"
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/Ojkgn_PP-5Q/m/muTw3THZQ9cJ
"[...] I, personally, have found I can get along fine with most groups, and can take the good with the bad. And while there are often many moments when I can't find anything special or remarkable about the written materials of ECKANKAR, I still find that special spark in the hearts of many ECKists (and former ECKists as well.) I think, after all these years, I've come to see that the real teachings reside there, in the hearts of the chelas, and their little extra generosity that they show, the little lighter walk they have, the little bit of naivete and desire to share, these are signs something is living and moving between them. And so, I guess, I find I care a great deal about them. [... .]"
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/Ojkgn_PP-5Q/m/muTw3THZQ9cJ
REGARDING ....."these are signs something is living and moving between them."
LUDICROUS FANCIFUL FICTIONAL OPINIONATED HOGWASH.
AKA SPIN AND DELUSIONAL BELIEFS OF WHAT WHERE WHY AND HOW.
"[...] The only area that I don't think looks good is Paul's lack of crediting his sources, to the point of making it look like he, or Rebazar Tarzs, was the original source. [... .]"
Oh really Doug? You think so?
Maybe come back here some day, Doug, and tell us WHY that doesn't look good to you. I'll be waiting.
And when Doug writes: "the ECK Masters" [PLURAL] ... for example
"[...] Remember, the writings of the ECK Masters are aimed at many different states of consciousness. [... .]"
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/kP7ml_Rh9lY/m/6CaYXfGiC4wJ
he should surely remember to clarify and explain the difference between a REAL person and an IMAGINARY and / or FICTIONAL character! Not try to lump them all together as if they are somehow equal. They certainly ARE NOT!
Okay. What do you consider Harolds responsibilities to be to the
students?
What are some criteria in which he can be held accountable?
"That he sincerely do his best to help guide his students along the spiritual
path. That he try to communicate the importance of where one places one's
attention, and the importance of consciously choosing and controlling one's
attention. That he try to relate the subtle dangers of the spiritual path, and
the personal responsibility that must be taken by every student if they expect
to succeed spiritually. How's that for a few responsibilities?
"As for holding Harold accountable, I would never recommend anyone talk about
holding anyone accountable for anything, unless you are a parent talking about
your child, or a manager talking about your employees, etc. [... .]"
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/80FC_-yE4Ts/m/Fzmg9yyd-gAJ
accountable (adj.)
"answerable," literally "liable to be called to account," c. 1400 (mid-14c. in Anglo-French), from Old French acontable; see account (v.) + -able. Related: Accountably.
https://www.etymonline.com/search?q=accountable
Is it just me, or does anybody else think Doug was obsessed with the motives and intentions thing? because it seems to me this is his default. IOW (in so many words) "It is not me, not Paul, not Harold or others so much as it is YOU who are wrong because you got the other person's motives and / or intentions wrong." I've seen Doug argue how others didn't / don't know the intentions of Paul Twitchell. And now I find Doug was harping on this kind of thing many, many years ago already when it comes to his very own self!
"[...] Do you really think you know what my motives are better than I do? Do you really think you know me that well that you can say you see my filters? Personally, I can only say you are not even close, but you would get a lot closer if you just accepted what I was saying as I'm saying it. [... .]"
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/80FC_-yE4Ts/m/tBp6wGp63uIJ
"[...] My reason for not wanting to criticize Harold is quite simple. I see Harold as a friend. A dear friend. I treat all of my friends the same way. I have a hard time pointing out their faults, and when I feel that I should, I will do so in private. [... .]"
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/80FC_-yE4Ts/m/tBp6wGp63uIJ
"But rather than focusing, again, on whether to blame Paul or not, or to judge what he wrote and whether it was good or bad, when not simply stay focused on the writings themselves? Isn't that the real matter here?"
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/80FC_-yE4Ts/m/-qKcA_LUBwYJ
"[...] Harold specifically gave a number of talks and wrote a number of articles where he explains that Paul was more of a Compiler than original author of the teachings. That was quite a dramatic statement when he made it. Harold talked about Paul's younger life, his stretching the stories of his own past, and how he was often promoting himself in his career as a writer. Harold may have been more polite than you would have been, but I think the points Harold made were definitely dealing with these issues and not in any way making excuses or offering mystical explanations.
"But, once again, why are we making Paul or Harold the issue? Are they really the issue? Doesn't it make more sense to talk about the impacts of the teachings themselves, rather than trying to turn the spiritual path into a personal matter?
"I've often heard the ECK critics on a.r.e. complain about ECKist trying to make them into the point of the discussion. Well, isn't focusing on Paul's or Harold's personal motivations similar, since it is implying that this is a valid way of judging the teachings themselves? [... .]"
Based on: post from December 23rd, 1998 (last post on page)
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/80FC_-yE4Ts/m/1-YZdEjoP7QJ
Doug Marman quotes from May, 1999.
"Paul used a technique known to writers as fictionalization. This is when an author would like to present a bunch of important information but doesn't want to do it in a boring, preaching way, but would rather present the material in a way that not only says something, but also shows something."
"As for the changing of the names, well Paul first offered these manuscripts to Kirpal for him to publish, to help spread the teaching under Kirpal's name. Kirpal rejected them. Paul chose to distance himself from Kirpal, rather than ride on the coattails of Sant Mat. This left Paul free to teach a number of things that are not taught within Sant Mat, and yet teach the ancient truth at the same time."
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/K4e_6WSB3Ro/m/ZXj5BTxZD7QJ
A quote from Doug Marman on the Doug Marman thread called: Its not about logic, its about lies

"I'm not sure it matters what names Paul used as his teachers in his writings."

https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/K4e_6WSB3Ro/m/ZXj5BTxZD7QJ

Not sure it matters to you, Doug!
Etznab
2021-04-17 12:21:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Etznab
Post by Etznab
Post by Etznab
Post by Etznab
Post by Etznab
Post by Etznab
Post by Etznab
Post by Etznab
Post by Etznab
Post by Henosis Sage
Post by Etznab
Post by Etznab
Post by Etznab
1997
"[...] But the bottom line is: So what? What difference does it really make? Lane suggests that if Paul lied about this, then how can you trust anything he says? Well, for one thing, who says you should trust anything Paul said?
"[...] And once you've gained that connection, who cares if it is fiction? It is certainly fiction of a whole different sort. A fiction that is truer than fact.
"[...] The origins of living teachings cannot be found by tracing historical events, but only by making contact with the higher states of consciousness from where they spring.
"[...] As a story of historical fact, Paul's story may not hold up very well. But that is not what it was meant for. It was intended for connecting us to a reality that is more real than any historical fact. [... .]"
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/MvIbPqSXZNc/m/ZTE7Djvb9zAJ
"[...] The point is not whether these beings were historical personages. The problem Lane has here is that he is trying to use the principles of Logical Deduction to judge spiritual realities. The principles of Logic, as they were established in the 18th and 19th centuries, claim that all statements are either true, false or meaningless. Clearly David is trying to fit Paul's writings into one of these three categories.
"[...] Therefore, it is possible to prove these statements for ourselves inwardly, not publicly, and this is the foundation of the teachings of ECKANKAR. So when we say that we believe this statement is true, we are talking about a truth beyond physical proofs.
"[...] The lesson here, for the spiritual student, is to become aware of the difference between what one knows through one's own personal experience, and what one has accepted on faith from outer teaching. Once you have had inner encounters with the ECK Masters or other spiritual realities, it is important to establish within yourself whether this is a reality or not. If you cannot, you leave yourself open to the challenges of the scientists or the lawyers.
"[...] This means that, when studying the works of ECKANKAR, we should take what we find is useful and not worry about the rest. Remember, the writings of the ECK Masters are aimed at many different states of consciousness. [... .]"
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/kP7ml_Rh9lY/m/6CaYXfGiC4wJ
"[...] The only area that I don't think looks good is Paul's lack of crediting his sources, to the point of making it look like he, or Rebazar Tarzs, was the original source. This looks especially bad these days, since copyright law has become much more controlled and publicized. However, it doesn't appear to have been much of a problem while Paul was alive. [... .]"
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/Er0VHRTk_sc/m/NQYn-wQ00FIJ
1998
"Paul fictionalized his accounts, because he was an experienced writer and knew that stories were far more effective than lectures. Paul set himself up as simply a seeker, in The Tiger's Fang, because he knew from experience that people learn very differently from those who come across as authorities, than from someone who they can identify with, who is describing a personal experience. He created the dialog with Rebazar Tarzs, in The Far Country, because this was a much more effective and interesting way of communicating, than simply pontificating."
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.religion.eckankar/cHzE0Cdcfy4/M6ZJAPyvTNsJ
"[...] And no matter what anyone might do, organizations will always look after themselves. Organizations can not act any other way when they are leading.
"This is why the inner connection to Spirit, the ECK, is the only thing that we can rely on. [...]
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/flPIG63ZhWM/m/8xOvqxhQSasJ
"And if the teaching is sincere about the spiritual path, it needs to point out over and over again its own limitations in its outer form. [... .]"
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/flPIG63ZhWM/m/8xOvqxhQSasJ
[...] My opinion, Dave, since you have expressed yours above, is that the only person we should try to keep on a hook is our own selves. We should take full responsibility for everything we create, and we should try to be conscious and aware of our own decisions. This leaves us free to continue on with our lives, and not get hung up on how someone else's choices might have affected our lives, which are things of the past. [... .]"
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/GBwgDKAztbI/m/zAJCPXv-SP8J
"Strange as it may seem today, back when Paul began writing his books, such as The Far Country, the creation of myth was still seen as a necessary requirement of most spiritual paths."
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/GBwgDKAztbI/m/zAJCPXv-SP8J
"[...] I, for one, love the differences. That we would make different choices, I think is fascinating and makes for interesting discussions and debates. But the painting of each other as if one side is wrong, and the other is right, does surprise me, because I think we all have learned early on in our spiritual search, that the Social Conscience, where the wordly ideas of right and wrong are bandied about, must be abandoned if we are going to find real Truth. [... .]"
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/XyM6OgFl9zI/m/dHTqQiQmD3wJ
"[...] And what do I care if he painted fiction to express Truth, or blurred the facts to create his background scenery? It's like a friend who once had a dream where Jesus told him: 'It's all poetry.' [... .]"
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/Ojkgn_PP-5Q/m/muTw3THZQ9cJ
"[...] I, personally, have found I can get along fine with most groups, and can take the good with the bad. And while there are often many moments when I can't find anything special or remarkable about the written materials of ECKANKAR, I still find that special spark in the hearts of many ECKists (and former ECKists as well.) I think, after all these years, I've come to see that the real teachings reside there, in the hearts of the chelas, and their little extra generosity that they show, the little lighter walk they have, the little bit of naivete and desire to share, these are signs something is living and moving between them. And so, I guess, I find I care a great deal about them. [... .]"
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/Ojkgn_PP-5Q/m/muTw3THZQ9cJ
REGARDING ....."these are signs something is living and moving between them."
LUDICROUS FANCIFUL FICTIONAL OPINIONATED HOGWASH.
AKA SPIN AND DELUSIONAL BELIEFS OF WHAT WHERE WHY AND HOW.
"[...] The only area that I don't think looks good is Paul's lack of crediting his sources, to the point of making it look like he, or Rebazar Tarzs, was the original source. [... .]"
Oh really Doug? You think so?
Maybe come back here some day, Doug, and tell us WHY that doesn't look good to you. I'll be waiting.
And when Doug writes: "the ECK Masters" [PLURAL] ... for example
"[...] Remember, the writings of the ECK Masters are aimed at many different states of consciousness. [... .]"
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/kP7ml_Rh9lY/m/6CaYXfGiC4wJ
he should surely remember to clarify and explain the difference between a REAL person and an IMAGINARY and / or FICTIONAL character! Not try to lump them all together as if they are somehow equal. They certainly ARE NOT!
Okay. What do you consider Harolds responsibilities to be to the
students?
What are some criteria in which he can be held accountable?
"That he sincerely do his best to help guide his students along the spiritual
path. That he try to communicate the importance of where one places one's
attention, and the importance of consciously choosing and controlling one's
attention. That he try to relate the subtle dangers of the spiritual path, and
the personal responsibility that must be taken by every student if they expect
to succeed spiritually. How's that for a few responsibilities?
"As for holding Harold accountable, I would never recommend anyone talk about
holding anyone accountable for anything, unless you are a parent talking about
your child, or a manager talking about your employees, etc. [... .]"
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/80FC_-yE4Ts/m/Fzmg9yyd-gAJ
accountable (adj.)
"answerable," literally "liable to be called to account," c. 1400 (mid-14c. in Anglo-French), from Old French acontable; see account (v.) + -able. Related: Accountably.
https://www.etymonline.com/search?q=accountable
Is it just me, or does anybody else think Doug was obsessed with the motives and intentions thing? because it seems to me this is his default. IOW (in so many words) "It is not me, not Paul, not Harold or others so much as it is YOU who are wrong because you got the other person's motives and / or intentions wrong." I've seen Doug argue how others didn't / don't know the intentions of Paul Twitchell. And now I find Doug was harping on this kind of thing many, many years ago already when it comes to his very own self!
"[...] Do you really think you know what my motives are better than I do? Do you really think you know me that well that you can say you see my filters? Personally, I can only say you are not even close, but you would get a lot closer if you just accepted what I was saying as I'm saying it. [... .]"
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/80FC_-yE4Ts/m/tBp6wGp63uIJ
"[...] My reason for not wanting to criticize Harold is quite simple. I see Harold as a friend. A dear friend. I treat all of my friends the same way. I have a hard time pointing out their faults, and when I feel that I should, I will do so in private. [... .]"
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/80FC_-yE4Ts/m/tBp6wGp63uIJ
"But rather than focusing, again, on whether to blame Paul or not, or to judge what he wrote and whether it was good or bad, when not simply stay focused on the writings themselves? Isn't that the real matter here?"
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/80FC_-yE4Ts/m/-qKcA_LUBwYJ
"[...] Harold specifically gave a number of talks and wrote a number of articles where he explains that Paul was more of a Compiler than original author of the teachings. That was quite a dramatic statement when he made it. Harold talked about Paul's younger life, his stretching the stories of his own past, and how he was often promoting himself in his career as a writer. Harold may have been more polite than you would have been, but I think the points Harold made were definitely dealing with these issues and not in any way making excuses or offering mystical explanations.
"But, once again, why are we making Paul or Harold the issue? Are they really the issue? Doesn't it make more sense to talk about the impacts of the teachings themselves, rather than trying to turn the spiritual path into a personal matter?
"I've often heard the ECK critics on a.r.e. complain about ECKist trying to make them into the point of the discussion. Well, isn't focusing on Paul's or Harold's personal motivations similar, since it is implying that this is a valid way of judging the teachings themselves? [... .]"
Based on: post from December 23rd, 1998 (last post on page)
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/80FC_-yE4Ts/m/1-YZdEjoP7QJ
Doug Marman quotes from May, 1999.
"Paul used a technique known to writers as fictionalization. This is when an author would like to present a bunch of important information but doesn't want to do it in a boring, preaching way, but would rather present the material in a way that not only says something, but also shows something."
"As for the changing of the names, well Paul first offered these manuscripts to Kirpal for him to publish, to help spread the teaching under Kirpal's name. Kirpal rejected them. Paul chose to distance himself from Kirpal, rather than ride on the coattails of Sant Mat. This left Paul free to teach a number of things that are not taught within Sant Mat, and yet teach the ancient truth at the same time."
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/K4e_6WSB3Ro/m/ZXj5BTxZD7QJ
A quote from Doug Marman on the Doug Marman thread called: Its not about logic, its about lies
"I'm not sure it matters what names Paul used as his teachers in his writings."
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/K4e_6WSB3Ro/m/ZXj5BTxZD7QJ
Not sure it matters to you, Doug!
"What all of this means is that real learning does not begin until we can start to discriminate what is real from what is not. If we simply accept what some outer authority tells us is true, then we will always be helplessly dependent on them to make our decisions for us, and we will never really learn anything. If however, we hear something from another that rings true with what we know from our own experiences, then we can learn and we can use that information to understand."

- Based on: The Stages of Real Learning, by Doug Marman, 05/02/99.

https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/jcy1k2FMcp0/m/SRvIIzBue3wJ
Etznab
2021-04-24 02:30:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Etznab
Post by Etznab
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Post by Etznab
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Post by Etznab
Post by Etznab
Post by Etznab
Post by Henosis Sage
Post by Etznab
Post by Etznab
Post by Etznab
1997
"[...] But the bottom line is: So what? What difference does it really make? Lane suggests that if Paul lied about this, then how can you trust anything he says? Well, for one thing, who says you should trust anything Paul said?
"[...] And once you've gained that connection, who cares if it is fiction? It is certainly fiction of a whole different sort. A fiction that is truer than fact.
"[...] The origins of living teachings cannot be found by tracing historical events, but only by making contact with the higher states of consciousness from where they spring.
"[...] As a story of historical fact, Paul's story may not hold up very well. But that is not what it was meant for. It was intended for connecting us to a reality that is more real than any historical fact. [... .]"
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/MvIbPqSXZNc/m/ZTE7Djvb9zAJ
"[...] The point is not whether these beings were historical personages. The problem Lane has here is that he is trying to use the principles of Logical Deduction to judge spiritual realities. The principles of Logic, as they were established in the 18th and 19th centuries, claim that all statements are either true, false or meaningless. Clearly David is trying to fit Paul's writings into one of these three categories.
"[...] Therefore, it is possible to prove these statements for ourselves inwardly, not publicly, and this is the foundation of the teachings of ECKANKAR. So when we say that we believe this statement is true, we are talking about a truth beyond physical proofs.
"[...] The lesson here, for the spiritual student, is to become aware of the difference between what one knows through one's own personal experience, and what one has accepted on faith from outer teaching. Once you have had inner encounters with the ECK Masters or other spiritual realities, it is important to establish within yourself whether this is a reality or not. If you cannot, you leave yourself open to the challenges of the scientists or the lawyers.
"[...] This means that, when studying the works of ECKANKAR, we should take what we find is useful and not worry about the rest. Remember, the writings of the ECK Masters are aimed at many different states of consciousness. [... .]"
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/kP7ml_Rh9lY/m/6CaYXfGiC4wJ
"[...] The only area that I don't think looks good is Paul's lack of crediting his sources, to the point of making it look like he, or Rebazar Tarzs, was the original source. This looks especially bad these days, since copyright law has become much more controlled and publicized. However, it doesn't appear to have been much of a problem while Paul was alive. [... .]"
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/Er0VHRTk_sc/m/NQYn-wQ00FIJ
1998
"Paul fictionalized his accounts, because he was an experienced writer and knew that stories were far more effective than lectures. Paul set himself up as simply a seeker, in The Tiger's Fang, because he knew from experience that people learn very differently from those who come across as authorities, than from someone who they can identify with, who is describing a personal experience. He created the dialog with Rebazar Tarzs, in The Far Country, because this was a much more effective and interesting way of communicating, than simply pontificating."
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.religion.eckankar/cHzE0Cdcfy4/M6ZJAPyvTNsJ
"[...] And no matter what anyone might do, organizations will always look after themselves. Organizations can not act any other way when they are leading.
"This is why the inner connection to Spirit, the ECK, is the only thing that we can rely on. [...]
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/flPIG63ZhWM/m/8xOvqxhQSasJ
"And if the teaching is sincere about the spiritual path, it needs to point out over and over again its own limitations in its outer form. [... .]"
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/flPIG63ZhWM/m/8xOvqxhQSasJ
[...] My opinion, Dave, since you have expressed yours above, is that the only person we should try to keep on a hook is our own selves. We should take full responsibility for everything we create, and we should try to be conscious and aware of our own decisions. This leaves us free to continue on with our lives, and not get hung up on how someone else's choices might have affected our lives, which are things of the past. [... .]"
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/GBwgDKAztbI/m/zAJCPXv-SP8J
"Strange as it may seem today, back when Paul began writing his books, such as The Far Country, the creation of myth was still seen as a necessary requirement of most spiritual paths."
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/GBwgDKAztbI/m/zAJCPXv-SP8J
"[...] I, for one, love the differences. That we would make different choices, I think is fascinating and makes for interesting discussions and debates. But the painting of each other as if one side is wrong, and the other is right, does surprise me, because I think we all have learned early on in our spiritual search, that the Social Conscience, where the wordly ideas of right and wrong are bandied about, must be abandoned if we are going to find real Truth. [... .]"
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/XyM6OgFl9zI/m/dHTqQiQmD3wJ
"[...] And what do I care if he painted fiction to express Truth, or blurred the facts to create his background scenery? It's like a friend who once had a dream where Jesus told him: 'It's all poetry.' [... .]"
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/Ojkgn_PP-5Q/m/muTw3THZQ9cJ
"[...] I, personally, have found I can get along fine with most groups, and can take the good with the bad. And while there are often many moments when I can't find anything special or remarkable about the written materials of ECKANKAR, I still find that special spark in the hearts of many ECKists (and former ECKists as well.) I think, after all these years, I've come to see that the real teachings reside there, in the hearts of the chelas, and their little extra generosity that they show, the little lighter walk they have, the little bit of naivete and desire to share, these are signs something is living and moving between them. And so, I guess, I find I care a great deal about them. [... .]"
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/Ojkgn_PP-5Q/m/muTw3THZQ9cJ
REGARDING ....."these are signs something is living and moving between them."
LUDICROUS FANCIFUL FICTIONAL OPINIONATED HOGWASH.
AKA SPIN AND DELUSIONAL BELIEFS OF WHAT WHERE WHY AND HOW.
"[...] The only area that I don't think looks good is Paul's lack of crediting his sources, to the point of making it look like he, or Rebazar Tarzs, was the original source. [... .]"
Oh really Doug? You think so?
Maybe come back here some day, Doug, and tell us WHY that doesn't look good to you. I'll be waiting.
And when Doug writes: "the ECK Masters" [PLURAL] ... for example
"[...] Remember, the writings of the ECK Masters are aimed at many different states of consciousness. [... .]"
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/kP7ml_Rh9lY/m/6CaYXfGiC4wJ
he should surely remember to clarify and explain the difference between a REAL person and an IMAGINARY and / or FICTIONAL character! Not try to lump them all together as if they are somehow equal. They certainly ARE NOT!
Okay. What do you consider Harolds responsibilities to be to the
students?
What are some criteria in which he can be held accountable?
"That he sincerely do his best to help guide his students along the spiritual
path. That he try to communicate the importance of where one places one's
attention, and the importance of consciously choosing and controlling one's
attention. That he try to relate the subtle dangers of the spiritual path, and
the personal responsibility that must be taken by every student if they expect
to succeed spiritually. How's that for a few responsibilities?
"As for holding Harold accountable, I would never recommend anyone talk about
holding anyone accountable for anything, unless you are a parent talking about
your child, or a manager talking about your employees, etc. [... .]"
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/80FC_-yE4Ts/m/Fzmg9yyd-gAJ
accountable (adj.)
"answerable," literally "liable to be called to account," c. 1400 (mid-14c. in Anglo-French), from Old French acontable; see account (v.) + -able. Related: Accountably.
https://www.etymonline.com/search?q=accountable
Is it just me, or does anybody else think Doug was obsessed with the motives and intentions thing? because it seems to me this is his default. IOW (in so many words) "It is not me, not Paul, not Harold or others so much as it is YOU who are wrong because you got the other person's motives and / or intentions wrong." I've seen Doug argue how others didn't / don't know the intentions of Paul Twitchell. And now I find Doug was harping on this kind of thing many, many years ago already when it comes to his very own self!
"[...] Do you really think you know what my motives are better than I do? Do you really think you know me that well that you can say you see my filters? Personally, I can only say you are not even close, but you would get a lot closer if you just accepted what I was saying as I'm saying it. [... .]"
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/80FC_-yE4Ts/m/tBp6wGp63uIJ
"[...] My reason for not wanting to criticize Harold is quite simple. I see Harold as a friend. A dear friend. I treat all of my friends the same way. I have a hard time pointing out their faults, and when I feel that I should, I will do so in private. [... .]"
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/80FC_-yE4Ts/m/tBp6wGp63uIJ
"But rather than focusing, again, on whether to blame Paul or not, or to judge what he wrote and whether it was good or bad, when not simply stay focused on the writings themselves? Isn't that the real matter here?"
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/80FC_-yE4Ts/m/-qKcA_LUBwYJ
"[...] Harold specifically gave a number of talks and wrote a number of articles where he explains that Paul was more of a Compiler than original author of the teachings. That was quite a dramatic statement when he made it. Harold talked about Paul's younger life, his stretching the stories of his own past, and how he was often promoting himself in his career as a writer. Harold may have been more polite than you would have been, but I think the points Harold made were definitely dealing with these issues and not in any way making excuses or offering mystical explanations.
"But, once again, why are we making Paul or Harold the issue? Are they really the issue? Doesn't it make more sense to talk about the impacts of the teachings themselves, rather than trying to turn the spiritual path into a personal matter?
"I've often heard the ECK critics on a.r.e. complain about ECKist trying to make them into the point of the discussion. Well, isn't focusing on Paul's or Harold's personal motivations similar, since it is implying that this is a valid way of judging the teachings themselves? [... .]"
Based on: post from December 23rd, 1998 (last post on page)
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/80FC_-yE4Ts/m/1-YZdEjoP7QJ
Doug Marman quotes from May, 1999.
"Paul used a technique known to writers as fictionalization. This is when an author would like to present a bunch of important information but doesn't want to do it in a boring, preaching way, but would rather present the material in a way that not only says something, but also shows something."
"As for the changing of the names, well Paul first offered these manuscripts to Kirpal for him to publish, to help spread the teaching under Kirpal's name. Kirpal rejected them. Paul chose to distance himself from Kirpal, rather than ride on the coattails of Sant Mat. This left Paul free to teach a number of things that are not taught within Sant Mat, and yet teach the ancient truth at the same time."
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/K4e_6WSB3Ro/m/ZXj5BTxZD7QJ
A quote from Doug Marman on the Doug Marman thread called: Its not about logic, its about lies
"I'm not sure it matters what names Paul used as his teachers in his writings."
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/K4e_6WSB3Ro/m/ZXj5BTxZD7QJ
Not sure it matters to you, Doug!
"What all of this means is that real learning does not begin until we can start to discriminate what is real from what is not. If we simply accept what some outer authority tells us is true, then we will always be helplessly dependent on them to make our decisions for us, and we will never really learn anything. If however, we hear something from another that rings true with what we know from our own experiences, then we can learn and we can use that information to understand."
- Based on: The Stages of Real Learning, by Doug Marman, 05/02/99.
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/jcy1k2FMcp0/m/SRvIIzBue3wJ
"[...] Therefore challenges presented to our religious beliefs or religious organizations must be dealt with mainly on a personal basis. [... .]"

https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/uMYdE7ODgNY/m/NvKZXAV-3_8J
Etznab
2021-05-08 13:14:48 UTC
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Post by Etznab
Post by Etznab
Post by Etznab
Post by Etznab
Post by Etznab
Post by Etznab
Post by Etznab
Post by Etznab
Post by Etznab
Post by Etznab
Post by Etznab
Post by Henosis Sage
Post by Etznab
Post by Etznab
Post by Etznab
1997
"[...] But the bottom line is: So what? What difference does it really make? Lane suggests that if Paul lied about this, then how can you trust anything he says? Well, for one thing, who says you should trust anything Paul said?
"[...] And once you've gained that connection, who cares if it is fiction? It is certainly fiction of a whole different sort. A fiction that is truer than fact.
"[...] The origins of living teachings cannot be found by tracing historical events, but only by making contact with the higher states of consciousness from where they spring.
"[...] As a story of historical fact, Paul's story may not hold up very well. But that is not what it was meant for. It was intended for connecting us to a reality that is more real than any historical fact. [... .]"
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/MvIbPqSXZNc/m/ZTE7Djvb9zAJ
"[...] The point is not whether these beings were historical personages. The problem Lane has here is that he is trying to use the principles of Logical Deduction to judge spiritual realities. The principles of Logic, as they were established in the 18th and 19th centuries, claim that all statements are either true, false or meaningless. Clearly David is trying to fit Paul's writings into one of these three categories.
"[...] Therefore, it is possible to prove these statements for ourselves inwardly, not publicly, and this is the foundation of the teachings of ECKANKAR. So when we say that we believe this statement is true, we are talking about a truth beyond physical proofs.
"[...] The lesson here, for the spiritual student, is to become aware of the difference between what one knows through one's own personal experience, and what one has accepted on faith from outer teaching. Once you have had inner encounters with the ECK Masters or other spiritual realities, it is important to establish within yourself whether this is a reality or not. If you cannot, you leave yourself open to the challenges of the scientists or the lawyers.
"[...] This means that, when studying the works of ECKANKAR, we should take what we find is useful and not worry about the rest. Remember, the writings of the ECK Masters are aimed at many different states of consciousness. [... .]"
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/kP7ml_Rh9lY/m/6CaYXfGiC4wJ
"[...] The only area that I don't think looks good is Paul's lack of crediting his sources, to the point of making it look like he, or Rebazar Tarzs, was the original source. This looks especially bad these days, since copyright law has become much more controlled and publicized. However, it doesn't appear to have been much of a problem while Paul was alive. [... .]"
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/Er0VHRTk_sc/m/NQYn-wQ00FIJ
1998
"Paul fictionalized his accounts, because he was an experienced writer and knew that stories were far more effective than lectures. Paul set himself up as simply a seeker, in The Tiger's Fang, because he knew from experience that people learn very differently from those who come across as authorities, than from someone who they can identify with, who is describing a personal experience. He created the dialog with Rebazar Tarzs, in The Far Country, because this was a much more effective and interesting way of communicating, than simply pontificating."
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.religion.eckankar/cHzE0Cdcfy4/M6ZJAPyvTNsJ
"[...] And no matter what anyone might do, organizations will always look after themselves. Organizations can not act any other way when they are leading.
"This is why the inner connection to Spirit, the ECK, is the only thing that we can rely on. [...]
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/flPIG63ZhWM/m/8xOvqxhQSasJ
"And if the teaching is sincere about the spiritual path, it needs to point out over and over again its own limitations in its outer form. [... .]"
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/flPIG63ZhWM/m/8xOvqxhQSasJ
[...] My opinion, Dave, since you have expressed yours above, is that the only person we should try to keep on a hook is our own selves. We should take full responsibility for everything we create, and we should try to be conscious and aware of our own decisions. This leaves us free to continue on with our lives, and not get hung up on how someone else's choices might have affected our lives, which are things of the past. [... .]"
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/GBwgDKAztbI/m/zAJCPXv-SP8J
"Strange as it may seem today, back when Paul began writing his books, such as The Far Country, the creation of myth was still seen as a necessary requirement of most spiritual paths."
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/GBwgDKAztbI/m/zAJCPXv-SP8J
"[...] I, for one, love the differences. That we would make different choices, I think is fascinating and makes for interesting discussions and debates. But the painting of each other as if one side is wrong, and the other is right, does surprise me, because I think we all have learned early on in our spiritual search, that the Social Conscience, where the wordly ideas of right and wrong are bandied about, must be abandoned if we are going to find real Truth. [... .]"
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/XyM6OgFl9zI/m/dHTqQiQmD3wJ
"[...] And what do I care if he painted fiction to express Truth, or blurred the facts to create his background scenery? It's like a friend who once had a dream where Jesus told him: 'It's all poetry.' [... .]"
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/Ojkgn_PP-5Q/m/muTw3THZQ9cJ
"[...] I, personally, have found I can get along fine with most groups, and can take the good with the bad. And while there are often many moments when I can't find anything special or remarkable about the written materials of ECKANKAR, I still find that special spark in the hearts of many ECKists (and former ECKists as well.) I think, after all these years, I've come to see that the real teachings reside there, in the hearts of the chelas, and their little extra generosity that they show, the little lighter walk they have, the little bit of naivete and desire to share, these are signs something is living and moving between them. And so, I guess, I find I care a great deal about them. [... .]"
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/Ojkgn_PP-5Q/m/muTw3THZQ9cJ
REGARDING ....."these are signs something is living and moving between them."
LUDICROUS FANCIFUL FICTIONAL OPINIONATED HOGWASH.
AKA SPIN AND DELUSIONAL BELIEFS OF WHAT WHERE WHY AND HOW.
"[...] The only area that I don't think looks good is Paul's lack of crediting his sources, to the point of making it look like he, or Rebazar Tarzs, was the original source. [... .]"
Oh really Doug? You think so?
Maybe come back here some day, Doug, and tell us WHY that doesn't look good to you. I'll be waiting.
And when Doug writes: "the ECK Masters" [PLURAL] ... for example
"[...] Remember, the writings of the ECK Masters are aimed at many different states of consciousness. [... .]"
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/kP7ml_Rh9lY/m/6CaYXfGiC4wJ
he should surely remember to clarify and explain the difference between a REAL person and an IMAGINARY and / or FICTIONAL character! Not try to lump them all together as if they are somehow equal. They certainly ARE NOT!
Okay. What do you consider Harolds responsibilities to be to the
students?
What are some criteria in which he can be held accountable?
"That he sincerely do his best to help guide his students along the spiritual
path. That he try to communicate the importance of where one places one's
attention, and the importance of consciously choosing and controlling one's
attention. That he try to relate the subtle dangers of the spiritual path, and
the personal responsibility that must be taken by every student if they expect
to succeed spiritually. How's that for a few responsibilities?
"As for holding Harold accountable, I would never recommend anyone talk about
holding anyone accountable for anything, unless you are a parent talking about
your child, or a manager talking about your employees, etc. [... .]"
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/80FC_-yE4Ts/m/Fzmg9yyd-gAJ
accountable (adj.)
"answerable," literally "liable to be called to account," c. 1400 (mid-14c. in Anglo-French), from Old French acontable; see account (v.) + -able. Related: Accountably.
https://www.etymonline.com/search?q=accountable
Is it just me, or does anybody else think Doug was obsessed with the motives and intentions thing? because it seems to me this is his default. IOW (in so many words) "It is not me, not Paul, not Harold or others so much as it is YOU who are wrong because you got the other person's motives and / or intentions wrong." I've seen Doug argue how others didn't / don't know the intentions of Paul Twitchell. And now I find Doug was harping on this kind of thing many, many years ago already when it comes to his very own self!
"[...] Do you really think you know what my motives are better than I do? Do you really think you know me that well that you can say you see my filters? Personally, I can only say you are not even close, but you would get a lot closer if you just accepted what I was saying as I'm saying it. [... .]"
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/80FC_-yE4Ts/m/tBp6wGp63uIJ
"[...] My reason for not wanting to criticize Harold is quite simple. I see Harold as a friend. A dear friend. I treat all of my friends the same way. I have a hard time pointing out their faults, and when I feel that I should, I will do so in private. [... .]"
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/80FC_-yE4Ts/m/tBp6wGp63uIJ
"But rather than focusing, again, on whether to blame Paul or not, or to judge what he wrote and whether it was good or bad, when not simply stay focused on the writings themselves? Isn't that the real matter here?"
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/80FC_-yE4Ts/m/-qKcA_LUBwYJ
"[...] Harold specifically gave a number of talks and wrote a number of articles where he explains that Paul was more of a Compiler than original author of the teachings. That was quite a dramatic statement when he made it. Harold talked about Paul's younger life, his stretching the stories of his own past, and how he was often promoting himself in his career as a writer. Harold may have been more polite than you would have been, but I think the points Harold made were definitely dealing with these issues and not in any way making excuses or offering mystical explanations.
"But, once again, why are we making Paul or Harold the issue? Are they really the issue? Doesn't it make more sense to talk about the impacts of the teachings themselves, rather than trying to turn the spiritual path into a personal matter?
"I've often heard the ECK critics on a.r.e. complain about ECKist trying to make them into the point of the discussion. Well, isn't focusing on Paul's or Harold's personal motivations similar, since it is implying that this is a valid way of judging the teachings themselves? [... .]"
Based on: post from December 23rd, 1998 (last post on page)
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/80FC_-yE4Ts/m/1-YZdEjoP7QJ
Doug Marman quotes from May, 1999.
"Paul used a technique known to writers as fictionalization. This is when an author would like to present a bunch of important information but doesn't want to do it in a boring, preaching way, but would rather present the material in a way that not only says something, but also shows something."
"As for the changing of the names, well Paul first offered these manuscripts to Kirpal for him to publish, to help spread the teaching under Kirpal's name. Kirpal rejected them. Paul chose to distance himself from Kirpal, rather than ride on the coattails of Sant Mat. This left Paul free to teach a number of things that are not taught within Sant Mat, and yet teach the ancient truth at the same time."
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/K4e_6WSB3Ro/m/ZXj5BTxZD7QJ
A quote from Doug Marman on the Doug Marman thread called: Its not about logic, its about lies
"I'm not sure it matters what names Paul used as his teachers in his writings."
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/K4e_6WSB3Ro/m/ZXj5BTxZD7QJ
Not sure it matters to you, Doug!
"What all of this means is that real learning does not begin until we can start to discriminate what is real from what is not. If we simply accept what some outer authority tells us is true, then we will always be helplessly dependent on them to make our decisions for us, and we will never really learn anything. If however, we hear something from another that rings true with what we know from our own experiences, then we can learn and we can use that information to understand."
- Based on: The Stages of Real Learning, by Doug Marman, 05/02/99.
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/jcy1k2FMcp0/m/SRvIIzBue3wJ
"[...] Therefore challenges presented to our religious beliefs or religious organizations must be dealt with mainly on a personal basis. [... .]"
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/uMYdE7ODgNY/m/NvKZXAV-3_8J
This thread is now one of a three-part group (see links). It mainly catalogs quotes by Doug Marman about Eckankar fictions (beginning in the latter 1990s) and Doug's stated positions about them.

https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/68QiScz6NZI/m/D0v9TVkTAwAJ

https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/rahQ1kNyB38/m/obqhqXedAQAJ

https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/4ysJK655x2I/m/TRHKGwtNCQAJ

My observation has been that Doug Marman already knew about so many fictions even years before the Internet chat groups focused on "the whole truth" about Paul Twitchell & Eckankar.

Since I was not actively reading and posting within this group in the distant past, I am mostly familiar with Doug's later writings here; and before he stopped writing here. After learning about his admissions regarding certain fictions and plagiarism I wanted to see how far back it went. I found that Doug knew and talked about these things since at least the 1990s!

A couple examples:

1997

"[...] But the bottom line is: So what? What difference does it really make? Lane suggests that if Paul lied about this, then how can you trust anything he says? Well, for one thing, who says you should trust anything Paul said?

"[...] And once you've gained that connection, who cares if it is fiction? It is certainly fiction of a whole different sort. A fiction that is truer than fact.

https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/4ysJK655x2I/m/TRHKGwtNCQAJ

And by the time Doug wrote his "Dialogues in The Age of Criticism" and "The Whole Truth" book - where he nitpicked historical facts, plagiarisms and fictions mentioned by Prof. David Lane, it now looks curious to me what was his agenda.

For one thing, if (according to Doug) facts don't really matter so much then why did he spend so much time pointing out the difference between facts and fiction? And why, OH WHY, did he evidently later on - after giving multiple written positions about Paul Twitchell & Eckankar fictions - begin to elevate his own personal "fictions" over the "facts"?

Kinda looks to me like something an Eckankar P.R. person might do. That group "Bright Future", btw, was Doug a part of that?

All that past effort by Doug, all the posts and the books, where did it get him in a.r.e.? And with all of his "groupies" raving about his books, etc. Why didn't all that succeed at spinning the actual historical facts about fictional, or made up masters? About fictional, or made up facets of religion?

Maybe some people still care about the REAL whole truth, or the real, actual, provable in court truth that not only David Lane got a few things WRONG!
Etznab
2021-05-08 13:19:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Etznab
Post by Etznab
Post by Etznab
Post by Etznab
Post by Etznab
Post by Etznab
Post by Etznab
Post by Etznab
Post by Etznab
Post by Etznab
Post by Etznab
Post by Etznab
Post by Henosis Sage
Post by Etznab
Post by Etznab
Post by Etznab
1997
"[...] But the bottom line is: So what? What difference does it really make? Lane suggests that if Paul lied about this, then how can you trust anything he says? Well, for one thing, who says you should trust anything Paul said?
"[...] And once you've gained that connection, who cares if it is fiction? It is certainly fiction of a whole different sort. A fiction that is truer than fact.
"[...] The origins of living teachings cannot be found by tracing historical events, but only by making contact with the higher states of consciousness from where they spring.
"[...] As a story of historical fact, Paul's story may not hold up very well. But that is not what it was meant for. It was intended for connecting us to a reality that is more real than any historical fact. [... .]"
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/MvIbPqSXZNc/m/ZTE7Djvb9zAJ
"[...] The point is not whether these beings were historical personages. The problem Lane has here is that he is trying to use the principles of Logical Deduction to judge spiritual realities. The principles of Logic, as they were established in the 18th and 19th centuries, claim that all statements are either true, false or meaningless. Clearly David is trying to fit Paul's writings into one of these three categories.
"[...] Therefore, it is possible to prove these statements for ourselves inwardly, not publicly, and this is the foundation of the teachings of ECKANKAR. So when we say that we believe this statement is true, we are talking about a truth beyond physical proofs.
"[...] The lesson here, for the spiritual student, is to become aware of the difference between what one knows through one's own personal experience, and what one has accepted on faith from outer teaching. Once you have had inner encounters with the ECK Masters or other spiritual realities, it is important to establish within yourself whether this is a reality or not. If you cannot, you leave yourself open to the challenges of the scientists or the lawyers.
"[...] This means that, when studying the works of ECKANKAR, we should take what we find is useful and not worry about the rest. Remember, the writings of the ECK Masters are aimed at many different states of consciousness. [... .]"
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/kP7ml_Rh9lY/m/6CaYXfGiC4wJ
"[...] The only area that I don't think looks good is Paul's lack of crediting his sources, to the point of making it look like he, or Rebazar Tarzs, was the original source. This looks especially bad these days, since copyright law has become much more controlled and publicized. However, it doesn't appear to have been much of a problem while Paul was alive. [... .]"
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/Er0VHRTk_sc/m/NQYn-wQ00FIJ
1998
"Paul fictionalized his accounts, because he was an experienced writer and knew that stories were far more effective than lectures. Paul set himself up as simply a seeker, in The Tiger's Fang, because he knew from experience that people learn very differently from those who come across as authorities, than from someone who they can identify with, who is describing a personal experience. He created the dialog with Rebazar Tarzs, in The Far Country, because this was a much more effective and interesting way of communicating, than simply pontificating."
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.religion.eckankar/cHzE0Cdcfy4/M6ZJAPyvTNsJ
"[...] And no matter what anyone might do, organizations will always look after themselves. Organizations can not act any other way when they are leading.
"This is why the inner connection to Spirit, the ECK, is the only thing that we can rely on. [...]
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/flPIG63ZhWM/m/8xOvqxhQSasJ
"And if the teaching is sincere about the spiritual path, it needs to point out over and over again its own limitations in its outer form. [... .]"
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/flPIG63ZhWM/m/8xOvqxhQSasJ
[...] My opinion, Dave, since you have expressed yours above, is that the only person we should try to keep on a hook is our own selves. We should take full responsibility for everything we create, and we should try to be conscious and aware of our own decisions. This leaves us free to continue on with our lives, and not get hung up on how someone else's choices might have affected our lives, which are things of the past. [... .]"
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/GBwgDKAztbI/m/zAJCPXv-SP8J
"Strange as it may seem today, back when Paul began writing his books, such as The Far Country, the creation of myth was still seen as a necessary requirement of most spiritual paths."
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/GBwgDKAztbI/m/zAJCPXv-SP8J
"[...] I, for one, love the differences. That we would make different choices, I think is fascinating and makes for interesting discussions and debates. But the painting of each other as if one side is wrong, and the other is right, does surprise me, because I think we all have learned early on in our spiritual search, that the Social Conscience, where the wordly ideas of right and wrong are bandied about, must be abandoned if we are going to find real Truth. [... .]"
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/XyM6OgFl9zI/m/dHTqQiQmD3wJ
"[...] And what do I care if he painted fiction to express Truth, or blurred the facts to create his background scenery? It's like a friend who once had a dream where Jesus told him: 'It's all poetry.' [... .]"
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/Ojkgn_PP-5Q/m/muTw3THZQ9cJ
"[...] I, personally, have found I can get along fine with most groups, and can take the good with the bad. And while there are often many moments when I can't find anything special or remarkable about the written materials of ECKANKAR, I still find that special spark in the hearts of many ECKists (and former ECKists as well.) I think, after all these years, I've come to see that the real teachings reside there, in the hearts of the chelas, and their little extra generosity that they show, the little lighter walk they have, the little bit of naivete and desire to share, these are signs something is living and moving between them. And so, I guess, I find I care a great deal about them. [... .]"
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/Ojkgn_PP-5Q/m/muTw3THZQ9cJ
REGARDING ....."these are signs something is living and moving between them."
LUDICROUS FANCIFUL FICTIONAL OPINIONATED HOGWASH.
AKA SPIN AND DELUSIONAL BELIEFS OF WHAT WHERE WHY AND HOW.
"[...] The only area that I don't think looks good is Paul's lack of crediting his sources, to the point of making it look like he, or Rebazar Tarzs, was the original source. [... .]"
Oh really Doug? You think so?
Maybe come back here some day, Doug, and tell us WHY that doesn't look good to you. I'll be waiting.
And when Doug writes: "the ECK Masters" [PLURAL] ... for example
"[...] Remember, the writings of the ECK Masters are aimed at many different states of consciousness. [... .]"
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/kP7ml_Rh9lY/m/6CaYXfGiC4wJ
he should surely remember to clarify and explain the difference between a REAL person and an IMAGINARY and / or FICTIONAL character! Not try to lump them all together as if they are somehow equal. They certainly ARE NOT!
Okay. What do you consider Harolds responsibilities to be to the
students?
What are some criteria in which he can be held accountable?
"That he sincerely do his best to help guide his students along the spiritual
path. That he try to communicate the importance of where one places one's
attention, and the importance of consciously choosing and controlling one's
attention. That he try to relate the subtle dangers of the spiritual path, and
the personal responsibility that must be taken by every student if they expect
to succeed spiritually. How's that for a few responsibilities?
"As for holding Harold accountable, I would never recommend anyone talk about
holding anyone accountable for anything, unless you are a parent talking about
your child, or a manager talking about your employees, etc. [... .]"
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/80FC_-yE4Ts/m/Fzmg9yyd-gAJ
accountable (adj.)
"answerable," literally "liable to be called to account," c. 1400 (mid-14c. in Anglo-French), from Old French acontable; see account (v.) + -able. Related: Accountably.
https://www.etymonline.com/search?q=accountable
Is it just me, or does anybody else think Doug was obsessed with the motives and intentions thing? because it seems to me this is his default. IOW (in so many words) "It is not me, not Paul, not Harold or others so much as it is YOU who are wrong because you got the other person's motives and / or intentions wrong." I've seen Doug argue how others didn't / don't know the intentions of Paul Twitchell. And now I find Doug was harping on this kind of thing many, many years ago already when it comes to his very own self!
"[...] Do you really think you know what my motives are better than I do? Do you really think you know me that well that you can say you see my filters? Personally, I can only say you are not even close, but you would get a lot closer if you just accepted what I was saying as I'm saying it. [... .]"
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/80FC_-yE4Ts/m/tBp6wGp63uIJ
"[...] My reason for not wanting to criticize Harold is quite simple. I see Harold as a friend. A dear friend. I treat all of my friends the same way. I have a hard time pointing out their faults, and when I feel that I should, I will do so in private. [... .]"
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/80FC_-yE4Ts/m/tBp6wGp63uIJ
"But rather than focusing, again, on whether to blame Paul or not, or to judge what he wrote and whether it was good or bad, when not simply stay focused on the writings themselves? Isn't that the real matter here?"
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/80FC_-yE4Ts/m/-qKcA_LUBwYJ
"[...] Harold specifically gave a number of talks and wrote a number of articles where he explains that Paul was more of a Compiler than original author of the teachings. That was quite a dramatic statement when he made it. Harold talked about Paul's younger life, his stretching the stories of his own past, and how he was often promoting himself in his career as a writer. Harold may have been more polite than you would have been, but I think the points Harold made were definitely dealing with these issues and not in any way making excuses or offering mystical explanations.
"But, once again, why are we making Paul or Harold the issue? Are they really the issue? Doesn't it make more sense to talk about the impacts of the teachings themselves, rather than trying to turn the spiritual path into a personal matter?
"I've often heard the ECK critics on a.r.e. complain about ECKist trying to make them into the point of the discussion. Well, isn't focusing on Paul's or Harold's personal motivations similar, since it is implying that this is a valid way of judging the teachings themselves? [... .]"
Based on: post from December 23rd, 1998 (last post on page)
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/80FC_-yE4Ts/m/1-YZdEjoP7QJ
Doug Marman quotes from May, 1999.
"Paul used a technique known to writers as fictionalization. This is when an author would like to present a bunch of important information but doesn't want to do it in a boring, preaching way, but would rather present the material in a way that not only says something, but also shows something."
"As for the changing of the names, well Paul first offered these manuscripts to Kirpal for him to publish, to help spread the teaching under Kirpal's name. Kirpal rejected them. Paul chose to distance himself from Kirpal, rather than ride on the coattails of Sant Mat. This left Paul free to teach a number of things that are not taught within Sant Mat, and yet teach the ancient truth at the same time."
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/K4e_6WSB3Ro/m/ZXj5BTxZD7QJ
A quote from Doug Marman on the Doug Marman thread called: Its not about logic, its about lies
"I'm not sure it matters what names Paul used as his teachers in his writings."
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/K4e_6WSB3Ro/m/ZXj5BTxZD7QJ
Not sure it matters to you, Doug!
"What all of this means is that real learning does not begin until we can start to discriminate what is real from what is not. If we simply accept what some outer authority tells us is true, then we will always be helplessly dependent on them to make our decisions for us, and we will never really learn anything. If however, we hear something from another that rings true with what we know from our own experiences, then we can learn and we can use that information to understand."
- Based on: The Stages of Real Learning, by Doug Marman, 05/02/99.
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/jcy1k2FMcp0/m/SRvIIzBue3wJ
"[...] Therefore challenges presented to our religious beliefs or religious organizations must be dealt with mainly on a personal basis. [... .]"
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/uMYdE7ODgNY/m/NvKZXAV-3_8J
This thread is now one of a three-part group (see links). It mainly catalogs quotes by Doug Marman about Eckankar fictions (beginning in the latter 1990s) and Doug's stated positions about them.
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/68QiScz6NZI/m/D0v9TVkTAwAJ
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/rahQ1kNyB38/m/obqhqXedAQAJ
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/4ysJK655x2I/m/TRHKGwtNCQAJ
My observation has been that Doug Marman already knew about so many fictions even years before the Internet chat groups focused on "the whole truth" about Paul Twitchell & Eckankar.
Since I was not actively reading and posting within this group in the distant past, I am mostly familiar with Doug's later writings here; and before he stopped writing here. After learning about his admissions regarding certain fictions and plagiarism I wanted to see how far back it went. I found that Doug knew and talked about these things since at least the 1990s!
1997
"[...] But the bottom line is: So what? What difference does it really make? Lane suggests that if Paul lied about this, then how can you trust anything he says? Well, for one thing, who says you should trust anything Paul said?
"[...] And once you've gained that connection, who cares if it is fiction? It is certainly fiction of a whole different sort. A fiction that is truer than fact.
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/4ysJK655x2I/m/TRHKGwtNCQAJ
And by the time Doug wrote his "Dialogues in The Age of Criticism" and "The Whole Truth" book - where he nitpicked historical facts, plagiarisms and fictions mentioned by Prof. David Lane, it now looks curious to me what was his agenda.
For one thing, if (according to Doug) facts don't really matter so much then why did he spend so much time pointing out the difference between facts and fiction? And why, OH WHY, did he evidently later on - after giving multiple written positions about Paul Twitchell & Eckankar fictions - begin to elevate his own personal "fictions" over the "facts"?
Kinda looks to me like something an Eckankar P.R. person might do. That group "Bright Future", btw, was Doug a part of that?
All that past effort by Doug, all the posts and the books, where did it get him in a.r.e.? And with all of his "groupies" raving about his books, etc. Why didn't all that succeed at spinning the actual historical facts about fictional, or made up masters? About fictional, or made up facets of religion?
Maybe some people still care about the REAL whole truth, or the real, actual, provable in court truth that not only David Lane got a few things WRONG!
A fiction that is truer than fact? Talk about an upcoming court case mentioned psych evaluations for certain individuals.
Etznab
2021-02-11 00:48:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Etznab
Post by Etznab
Post by Etznab
Post by Etznab
Post by Henosis Sage
Post by Etznab
Post by Etznab
Post by Etznab
1997
"[...] But the bottom line is: So what? What difference does it really make? Lane suggests that if Paul lied about this, then how can you trust anything he says? Well, for one thing, who says you should trust anything Paul said?
"[...] And once you've gained that connection, who cares if it is fiction? It is certainly fiction of a whole different sort. A fiction that is truer than fact.
"[...] The origins of living teachings cannot be found by tracing historical events, but only by making contact with the higher states of consciousness from where they spring.
"[...] As a story of historical fact, Paul's story may not hold up very well. But that is not what it was meant for. It was intended for connecting us to a reality that is more real than any historical fact. [... .]"
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/MvIbPqSXZNc/m/ZTE7Djvb9zAJ
"[...] The point is not whether these beings were historical personages. The problem Lane has here is that he is trying to use the principles of Logical Deduction to judge spiritual realities. The principles of Logic, as they were established in the 18th and 19th centuries, claim that all statements are either true, false or meaningless. Clearly David is trying to fit Paul's writings into one of these three categories.
"[...] Therefore, it is possible to prove these statements for ourselves inwardly, not publicly, and this is the foundation of the teachings of ECKANKAR. So when we say that we believe this statement is true, we are talking about a truth beyond physical proofs.
"[...] The lesson here, for the spiritual student, is to become aware of the difference between what one knows through one's own personal experience, and what one has accepted on faith from outer teaching. Once you have had inner encounters with the ECK Masters or other spiritual realities, it is important to establish within yourself whether this is a reality or not. If you cannot, you leave yourself open to the challenges of the scientists or the lawyers.
"[...] This means that, when studying the works of ECKANKAR, we should take what we find is useful and not worry about the rest. Remember, the writings of the ECK Masters are aimed at many different states of consciousness. [... .]"
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/kP7ml_Rh9lY/m/6CaYXfGiC4wJ
"[...] The only area that I don't think looks good is Paul's lack of crediting his sources, to the point of making it look like he, or Rebazar Tarzs, was the original source. This looks especially bad these days, since copyright law has become much more controlled and publicized. However, it doesn't appear to have been much of a problem while Paul was alive. [... .]"
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/Er0VHRTk_sc/m/NQYn-wQ00FIJ
1998
"Paul fictionalized his accounts, because he was an experienced writer and knew that stories were far more effective than lectures. Paul set himself up as simply a seeker, in The Tiger's Fang, because he knew from experience that people learn very differently from those who come across as authorities, than from someone who they can identify with, who is describing a personal experience. He created the dialog with Rebazar Tarzs, in The Far Country, because this was a much more effective and interesting way of communicating, than simply pontificating."
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.religion.eckankar/cHzE0Cdcfy4/M6ZJAPyvTNsJ
"[...] And no matter what anyone might do, organizations will always look after themselves. Organizations can not act any other way when they are leading.
"This is why the inner connection to Spirit, the ECK, is the only thing that we can rely on. [...]
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/flPIG63ZhWM/m/8xOvqxhQSasJ
"And if the teaching is sincere about the spiritual path, it needs to point out over and over again its own limitations in its outer form. [... .]"
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/flPIG63ZhWM/m/8xOvqxhQSasJ
[...] My opinion, Dave, since you have expressed yours above, is that the only person we should try to keep on a hook is our own selves. We should take full responsibility for everything we create, and we should try to be conscious and aware of our own decisions. This leaves us free to continue on with our lives, and not get hung up on how someone else's choices might have affected our lives, which are things of the past. [... .]"
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/GBwgDKAztbI/m/zAJCPXv-SP8J
"Strange as it may seem today, back when Paul began writing his books, such as The Far Country, the creation of myth was still seen as a necessary requirement of most spiritual paths."
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/GBwgDKAztbI/m/zAJCPXv-SP8J
"[...] I, for one, love the differences. That we would make different choices, I think is fascinating and makes for interesting discussions and debates. But the painting of each other as if one side is wrong, and the other is right, does surprise me, because I think we all have learned early on in our spiritual search, that the Social Conscience, where the wordly ideas of right and wrong are bandied about, must be abandoned if we are going to find real Truth. [... .]"
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/XyM6OgFl9zI/m/dHTqQiQmD3wJ
"[...] And what do I care if he painted fiction to express Truth, or blurred the facts to create his background scenery? It's like a friend who once had a dream where Jesus told him: 'It's all poetry.' [... .]"
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/Ojkgn_PP-5Q/m/muTw3THZQ9cJ
"[...] I, personally, have found I can get along fine with most groups, and can take the good with the bad. And while there are often many moments when I can't find anything special or remarkable about the written materials of ECKANKAR, I still find that special spark in the hearts of many ECKists (and former ECKists as well.) I think, after all these years, I've come to see that the real teachings reside there, in the hearts of the chelas, and their little extra generosity that they show, the little lighter walk they have, the little bit of naivete and desire to share, these are signs something is living and moving between them. And so, I guess, I find I care a great deal about them. [... .]"
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/Ojkgn_PP-5Q/m/muTw3THZQ9cJ
REGARDING ....."these are signs something is living and moving between them."
LUDICROUS FANCIFUL FICTIONAL OPINIONATED HOGWASH.
AKA SPIN AND DELUSIONAL BELIEFS OF WHAT WHERE WHY AND HOW.
"[...] The only area that I don't think looks good is Paul's lack of crediting his sources, to the point of making it look like he, or Rebazar Tarzs, was the original source. [... .]"
Oh really Doug? You think so?
Maybe come back here some day, Doug, and tell us WHY that doesn't look good to you. I'll be waiting.
And when Doug writes: "the ECK Masters" [PLURAL] ... for example
"[...] Remember, the writings of the ECK Masters are aimed at many different states of consciousness. [... .]"
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/kP7ml_Rh9lY/m/6CaYXfGiC4wJ
he should surely remember to clarify and explain the difference between a REAL person and an IMAGINARY and / or FICTIONAL character! Not try to lump them all together as if they are somehow equal. They certainly ARE NOT!
Okay. What do you consider Harolds responsibilities to be to the
students?
What are some criteria in which he can be held accountable?
"That he sincerely do his best to help guide his students along the spiritual
path. That he try to communicate the importance of where one places one's
attention, and the importance of consciously choosing and controlling one's
attention. That he try to relate the subtle dangers of the spiritual path, and
the personal responsibility that must be taken by every student if they expect
to succeed spiritually. How's that for a few responsibilities?
"As for holding Harold accountable, I would never recommend anyone talk about
holding anyone accountable for anything, unless you are a parent talking about
your child, or a manager talking about your employees, etc. [... .]"
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/80FC_-yE4Ts/m/Fzmg9yyd-gAJ
accountable (adj.)
"answerable," literally "liable to be called to account," c. 1400 (mid-14c. in Anglo-French), from Old French acontable; see account (v.) + -able. Related: Accountably.
https://www.etymonline.com/search?q=accountable
"[...] My reason for not wanting to criticize Harold is quite simple. I see Harold as a friend. A dear friend. I treat all of my friends the same way. I have a hard time pointing out their faults, and when I feel that I should, I will do so in private. [... .]"

https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/80FC_-yE4Ts/m/tBp6wGp63uIJ
Etznab
2021-06-15 12:38:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Etznab
1997
"[...] But the bottom line is: So what? What difference does it really make? Lane suggests that if Paul lied about this, then how can you trust anything he says? Well, for one thing, who says you should trust anything Paul said?
"[...] And once you've gained that connection, who cares if it is fiction? It is certainly fiction of a whole different sort. A fiction that is truer than fact.
"[...] The origins of living teachings cannot be found by tracing historical events, but only by making contact with the higher states of consciousness from where they spring.
"[...] As a story of historical fact, Paul's story may not hold up very well. But that is not what it was meant for. It was intended for connecting us to a reality that is more real than any historical fact. [... .]"
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/MvIbPqSXZNc/m/ZTE7Djvb9zAJ
"[...] The point is not whether these beings were historical personages. The problem Lane has here is that he is trying to use the principles of Logical Deduction to judge spiritual realities. The principles of Logic, as they were established in the 18th and 19th centuries, claim that all statements are either true, false or meaningless. Clearly David is trying to fit Paul's writings into one of these three categories.
"[...] Therefore, it is possible to prove these statements for ourselves inwardly, not publicly, and this is the foundation of the teachings of ECKANKAR. So when we say that we believe this statement is true, we are talking about a truth beyond physical proofs.
"[...] The lesson here, for the spiritual student, is to become aware of the difference between what one knows through one's own personal experience, and what one has accepted on faith from outer teaching. Once you have had inner encounters with the ECK Masters or other spiritual realities, it is important to establish within yourself whether this is a reality or not. If you cannot, you leave yourself open to the challenges of the scientists or the lawyers.
"[...] This means that, when studying the works of ECKANKAR, we should take what we find is useful and not worry about the rest. Remember, the writings of the ECK Masters are aimed at many different states of consciousness. [... .]"
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/kP7ml_Rh9lY/m/6CaYXfGiC4wJ
"[...] The only area that I don't think looks good is Paul's lack of crediting his sources, to the point of making it look like he, or Rebazar Tarzs, was the original source. This looks especially bad these days, since copyright law has become much more controlled and publicized. However, it doesn't appear to have been much of a problem while Paul was alive. [... .]"
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/Er0VHRTk_sc/m/NQYn-wQ00FIJ
1998
"Paul fictionalized his accounts, because he was an experienced writer and knew that stories were far more effective than lectures. Paul set himself up as simply a seeker, in The Tiger's Fang, because he knew from experience that people learn very differently from those who come across as authorities, than from someone who they can identify with, who is describing a personal experience. He created the dialog with Rebazar Tarzs, in The Far Country, because this was a much more effective and interesting way of communicating, than simply pontificating."
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.religion.eckankar/cHzE0Cdcfy4/M6ZJAPyvTNsJ
"[...] And no matter what anyone might do, organizations will always look after themselves. Organizations can not act any other way when they are leading.
"This is why the inner connection to Spirit, the ECK, is the only thing that we can rely on. [...]
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/flPIG63ZhWM/m/8xOvqxhQSasJ
"And if the teaching is sincere about the spiritual path, it needs to point out over and over again its own limitations in its outer form. [... .]"
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/flPIG63ZhWM/m/8xOvqxhQSasJ
[...] My opinion, Dave, since you have expressed yours above, is that the only person we should try to keep on a hook is our own selves. We should take full responsibility for everything we create, and we should try to be conscious and aware of our own decisions. This leaves us free to continue on with our lives, and not get hung up on how someone else's choices might have affected our lives, which are things of the past. [... .]"
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/GBwgDKAztbI/m/zAJCPXv-SP8J
"Strange as it may seem today, back when Paul began writing his books, such as The Far Country, the creation of myth was still seen as a necessary requirement of most spiritual paths."
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/GBwgDKAztbI/m/zAJCPXv-SP8J
"[...] I, for one, love the differences. That we would make different choices, I think is fascinating and makes for interesting discussions and debates. But the painting of each other as if one side is wrong, and the other is right, does surprise me, because I think we all have learned early on in our spiritual search, that the Social Conscience, where the wordly ideas of right and wrong are bandied about, must be abandoned if we are going to find real Truth. [... .]"
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/XyM6OgFl9zI/m/dHTqQiQmD3wJ
Did I miss this one?

April 1997

"As a story of historical fact, Paul's story may not hold up very well. But that is not what it was meant for. It was intended for connecting us to a reality that is more real than any historical fact."

https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/MjYZWtvIOvk/m/yOT69_X5CAAJ

Looks to me like Doug Marman "BARGAINING STAGE" 101.
Etznab
2021-06-15 13:21:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Etznab
Post by Etznab
1997
"[...] But the bottom line is: So what? What difference does it really make? Lane suggests that if Paul lied about this, then how can you trust anything he says? Well, for one thing, who says you should trust anything Paul said?
"[...] And once you've gained that connection, who cares if it is fiction? It is certainly fiction of a whole different sort. A fiction that is truer than fact.
"[...] The origins of living teachings cannot be found by tracing historical events, but only by making contact with the higher states of consciousness from where they spring.
"[...] As a story of historical fact, Paul's story may not hold up very well. But that is not what it was meant for. It was intended for connecting us to a reality that is more real than any historical fact. [... .]"
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/MvIbPqSXZNc/m/ZTE7Djvb9zAJ
"[...] The point is not whether these beings were historical personages. The problem Lane has here is that he is trying to use the principles of Logical Deduction to judge spiritual realities. The principles of Logic, as they were established in the 18th and 19th centuries, claim that all statements are either true, false or meaningless. Clearly David is trying to fit Paul's writings into one of these three categories.
"[...] Therefore, it is possible to prove these statements for ourselves inwardly, not publicly, and this is the foundation of the teachings of ECKANKAR. So when we say that we believe this statement is true, we are talking about a truth beyond physical proofs.
"[...] The lesson here, for the spiritual student, is to become aware of the difference between what one knows through one's own personal experience, and what one has accepted on faith from outer teaching. Once you have had inner encounters with the ECK Masters or other spiritual realities, it is important to establish within yourself whether this is a reality or not. If you cannot, you leave yourself open to the challenges of the scientists or the lawyers.
"[...] This means that, when studying the works of ECKANKAR, we should take what we find is useful and not worry about the rest. Remember, the writings of the ECK Masters are aimed at many different states of consciousness. [... .]"
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/kP7ml_Rh9lY/m/6CaYXfGiC4wJ
"[...] The only area that I don't think looks good is Paul's lack of crediting his sources, to the point of making it look like he, or Rebazar Tarzs, was the original source. This looks especially bad these days, since copyright law has become much more controlled and publicized. However, it doesn't appear to have been much of a problem while Paul was alive. [... .]"
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/Er0VHRTk_sc/m/NQYn-wQ00FIJ
1998
"Paul fictionalized his accounts, because he was an experienced writer and knew that stories were far more effective than lectures. Paul set himself up as simply a seeker, in The Tiger's Fang, because he knew from experience that people learn very differently from those who come across as authorities, than from someone who they can identify with, who is describing a personal experience. He created the dialog with Rebazar Tarzs, in The Far Country, because this was a much more effective and interesting way of communicating, than simply pontificating."
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.religion.eckankar/cHzE0Cdcfy4/M6ZJAPyvTNsJ
"[...] And no matter what anyone might do, organizations will always look after themselves. Organizations can not act any other way when they are leading.
"This is why the inner connection to Spirit, the ECK, is the only thing that we can rely on. [...]
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/flPIG63ZhWM/m/8xOvqxhQSasJ
"And if the teaching is sincere about the spiritual path, it needs to point out over and over again its own limitations in its outer form. [... .]"
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/flPIG63ZhWM/m/8xOvqxhQSasJ
[...] My opinion, Dave, since you have expressed yours above, is that the only person we should try to keep on a hook is our own selves. We should take full responsibility for everything we create, and we should try to be conscious and aware of our own decisions. This leaves us free to continue on with our lives, and not get hung up on how someone else's choices might have affected our lives, which are things of the past. [... .]"
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/GBwgDKAztbI/m/zAJCPXv-SP8J
"Strange as it may seem today, back when Paul began writing his books, such as The Far Country, the creation of myth was still seen as a necessary requirement of most spiritual paths."
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/GBwgDKAztbI/m/zAJCPXv-SP8J
"[...] I, for one, love the differences. That we would make different choices, I think is fascinating and makes for interesting discussions and debates. But the painting of each other as if one side is wrong, and the other is right, does surprise me, because I think we all have learned early on in our spiritual search, that the Social Conscience, where the wordly ideas of right and wrong are bandied about, must be abandoned if we are going to find real Truth. [... .]"
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/XyM6OgFl9zI/m/dHTqQiQmD3wJ
Did I miss this one?
April 1997
"As a story of historical fact, Paul's story may not hold up very well. But that is not what it was meant for. It was intended for connecting us to a reality that is more real than any historical fact."
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/MjYZWtvIOvk/m/yOT69_X5CAAJ
Looks to me like Doug Marman "BARGAINING STAGE" 101.
Oh. I see. Already listed that quote.
Etznab
2022-01-31 23:41:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Etznab
Post by Etznab
Post by Etznab
1997
"[...] But the bottom line is: So what? What difference does it really make? Lane suggests that if Paul lied about this, then how can you trust anything he says? Well, for one thing, who says you should trust anything Paul said?
"[...] And once you've gained that connection, who cares if it is fiction? It is certainly fiction of a whole different sort. A fiction that is truer than fact.
"[...] The origins of living teachings cannot be found by tracing historical events, but only by making contact with the higher states of consciousness from where they spring.
"[...] As a story of historical fact, Paul's story may not hold up very well. But that is not what it was meant for. It was intended for connecting us to a reality that is more real than any historical fact. [... .]"
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/MvIbPqSXZNc/m/ZTE7Djvb9zAJ
"[...] The point is not whether these beings were historical personages. The problem Lane has here is that he is trying to use the principles of Logical Deduction to judge spiritual realities. The principles of Logic, as they were established in the 18th and 19th centuries, claim that all statements are either true, false or meaningless. Clearly David is trying to fit Paul's writings into one of these three categories.
"[...] Therefore, it is possible to prove these statements for ourselves inwardly, not publicly, and this is the foundation of the teachings of ECKANKAR. So when we say that we believe this statement is true, we are talking about a truth beyond physical proofs.
"[...] The lesson here, for the spiritual student, is to become aware of the difference between what one knows through one's own personal experience, and what one has accepted on faith from outer teaching. Once you have had inner encounters with the ECK Masters or other spiritual realities, it is important to establish within yourself whether this is a reality or not. If you cannot, you leave yourself open to the challenges of the scientists or the lawyers.
"[...] This means that, when studying the works of ECKANKAR, we should take what we find is useful and not worry about the rest. Remember, the writings of the ECK Masters are aimed at many different states of consciousness. [... .]"
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/kP7ml_Rh9lY/m/6CaYXfGiC4wJ
"[...] The only area that I don't think looks good is Paul's lack of crediting his sources, to the point of making it look like he, or Rebazar Tarzs, was the original source. This looks especially bad these days, since copyright law has become much more controlled and publicized. However, it doesn't appear to have been much of a problem while Paul was alive. [... .]"
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/Er0VHRTk_sc/m/NQYn-wQ00FIJ
1998
"Paul fictionalized his accounts, because he was an experienced writer and knew that stories were far more effective than lectures. Paul set himself up as simply a seeker, in The Tiger's Fang, because he knew from experience that people learn very differently from those who come across as authorities, than from someone who they can identify with, who is describing a personal experience. He created the dialog with Rebazar Tarzs, in The Far Country, because this was a much more effective and interesting way of communicating, than simply pontificating."
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.religion.eckankar/cHzE0Cdcfy4/M6ZJAPyvTNsJ
"[...] And no matter what anyone might do, organizations will always look after themselves. Organizations can not act any other way when they are leading.
"This is why the inner connection to Spirit, the ECK, is the only thing that we can rely on. [...]
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/flPIG63ZhWM/m/8xOvqxhQSasJ
"And if the teaching is sincere about the spiritual path, it needs to point out over and over again its own limitations in its outer form. [... .]"
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/flPIG63ZhWM/m/8xOvqxhQSasJ
[...] My opinion, Dave, since you have expressed yours above, is that the only person we should try to keep on a hook is our own selves. We should take full responsibility for everything we create, and we should try to be conscious and aware of our own decisions. This leaves us free to continue on with our lives, and not get hung up on how someone else's choices might have affected our lives, which are things of the past. [... .]"
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/GBwgDKAztbI/m/zAJCPXv-SP8J
"Strange as it may seem today, back when Paul began writing his books, such as The Far Country, the creation of myth was still seen as a necessary requirement of most spiritual paths."
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/GBwgDKAztbI/m/zAJCPXv-SP8J
"[...] I, for one, love the differences. That we would make different choices, I think is fascinating and makes for interesting discussions and debates. But the painting of each other as if one side is wrong, and the other is right, does surprise me, because I think we all have learned early on in our spiritual search, that the Social Conscience, where the wordly ideas of right and wrong are bandied about, must be abandoned if we are going to find real Truth. [... .]"
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/XyM6OgFl9zI/m/dHTqQiQmD3wJ
Did I miss this one?
April 1997
"As a story of historical fact, Paul's story may not hold up very well. But that is not what it was meant for. It was intended for connecting us to a reality that is more real than any historical fact."
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/MjYZWtvIOvk/m/yOT69_X5CAAJ
Looks to me like Doug Marman "BARGAINING STAGE" 101.
Oh. I see. Already listed that quote.
"What your opinion is, and what my opinion is, really isn't that important. They might be important to us, but why is it important for us to broadcast what our opinion is?" - Doug Marman

https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/uMYdE7ODgNY/m/kH0CNEiiMT4J
Henosis Sage
2022-02-10 04:32:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Etznab
Post by Etznab
Post by Etznab
Post by Etznab
1997
"[...] But the bottom line is: So what? What difference does it really make? Lane suggests that if Paul lied about this, then how can you trust anything he says? Well, for one thing, who says you should trust anything Paul said?
"[...] And once you've gained that connection, who cares if it is fiction? It is certainly fiction of a whole different sort. A fiction that is truer than fact.
"[...] The origins of living teachings cannot be found by tracing historical events, but only by making contact with the higher states of consciousness from where they spring.
"[...] As a story of historical fact, Paul's story may not hold up very well. But that is not what it was meant for. It was intended for connecting us to a reality that is more real than any historical fact. [... .]"
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/MvIbPqSXZNc/m/ZTE7Djvb9zAJ
"[...] The point is not whether these beings were historical personages. The problem Lane has here is that he is trying to use the principles of Logical Deduction to judge spiritual realities. The principles of Logic, as they were established in the 18th and 19th centuries, claim that all statements are either true, false or meaningless. Clearly David is trying to fit Paul's writings into one of these three categories.
"[...] Therefore, it is possible to prove these statements for ourselves inwardly, not publicly, and this is the foundation of the teachings of ECKANKAR. So when we say that we believe this statement is true, we are talking about a truth beyond physical proofs.
"[...] The lesson here, for the spiritual student, is to become aware of the difference between what one knows through one's own personal experience, and what one has accepted on faith from outer teaching. Once you have had inner encounters with the ECK Masters or other spiritual realities, it is important to establish within yourself whether this is a reality or not. If you cannot, you leave yourself open to the challenges of the scientists or the lawyers.
"[...] This means that, when studying the works of ECKANKAR, we should take what we find is useful and not worry about the rest. Remember, the writings of the ECK Masters are aimed at many different states of consciousness. [... .]"
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/kP7ml_Rh9lY/m/6CaYXfGiC4wJ
"[...] The only area that I don't think looks good is Paul's lack of crediting his sources, to the point of making it look like he, or Rebazar Tarzs, was the original source. This looks especially bad these days, since copyright law has become much more controlled and publicized. However, it doesn't appear to have been much of a problem while Paul was alive. [... .]"
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/Er0VHRTk_sc/m/NQYn-wQ00FIJ
1998
"Paul fictionalized his accounts, because he was an experienced writer and knew that stories were far more effective than lectures. Paul set himself up as simply a seeker, in The Tiger's Fang, because he knew from experience that people learn very differently from those who come across as authorities, than from someone who they can identify with, who is describing a personal experience. He created the dialog with Rebazar Tarzs, in The Far Country, because this was a much more effective and interesting way of communicating, than simply pontificating."
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.religion.eckankar/cHzE0Cdcfy4/M6ZJAPyvTNsJ
"[...] And no matter what anyone might do, organizations will always look after themselves. Organizations can not act any other way when they are leading.
"This is why the inner connection to Spirit, the ECK, is the only thing that we can rely on. [...]
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/flPIG63ZhWM/m/8xOvqxhQSasJ
"And if the teaching is sincere about the spiritual path, it needs to point out over and over again its own limitations in its outer form. [... .]"
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/flPIG63ZhWM/m/8xOvqxhQSasJ
[...] My opinion, Dave, since you have expressed yours above, is that the only person we should try to keep on a hook is our own selves. We should take full responsibility for everything we create, and we should try to be conscious and aware of our own decisions. This leaves us free to continue on with our lives, and not get hung up on how someone else's choices might have affected our lives, which are things of the past. [... .]"
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/GBwgDKAztbI/m/zAJCPXv-SP8J
"Strange as it may seem today, back when Paul began writing his books, such as The Far Country, the creation of myth was still seen as a necessary requirement of most spiritual paths."
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/GBwgDKAztbI/m/zAJCPXv-SP8J
"[...] I, for one, love the differences. That we would make different choices, I think is fascinating and makes for interesting discussions and debates. But the painting of each other as if one side is wrong, and the other is right, does surprise me, because I think we all have learned early on in our spiritual search, that the Social Conscience, where the wordly ideas of right and wrong are bandied about, must be abandoned if we are going to find real Truth. [... .]"
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/XyM6OgFl9zI/m/dHTqQiQmD3wJ
Did I miss this one?
April 1997
"As a story of historical fact, Paul's story may not hold up very well. But that is not what it was meant for. It was intended for connecting us to a reality that is more real than any historical fact."
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/MjYZWtvIOvk/m/yOT69_X5CAAJ
Looks to me like Doug Marman "BARGAINING STAGE" 101.
Oh. I see. Already listed that quote.
"What your opinion is, and what my opinion is, really isn't that important. They might be important to us, but why is it important for us to broadcast what our opinion is?" - Doug Marman
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/uMYdE7ODgNY/m/kH0CNEiiMT4J
Says that deluded Hypocrite Doug Marman who wrote a fucking 800 page book full to the brim with his precious opinions and guesses and assumptions INCLUDING UNTRUTHS AND LIES & MANIPULATION from his disrupted irrational thinking to broadcast all that to the world are 25 years of doing the same thing in other forums and here.
Etznab
2022-03-22 23:29:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Henosis Sage
Post by Etznab
Post by Etznab
Post by Etznab
Post by Etznab
1997
"[...] But the bottom line is: So what? What difference does it really make? Lane suggests that if Paul lied about this, then how can you trust anything he says? Well, for one thing, who says you should trust anything Paul said?
"[...] And once you've gained that connection, who cares if it is fiction? It is certainly fiction of a whole different sort. A fiction that is truer than fact.
"[...] The origins of living teachings cannot be found by tracing historical events, but only by making contact with the higher states of consciousness from where they spring.
"[...] As a story of historical fact, Paul's story may not hold up very well. But that is not what it was meant for. It was intended for connecting us to a reality that is more real than any historical fact. [... .]"
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/MvIbPqSXZNc/m/ZTE7Djvb9zAJ
"[...] The point is not whether these beings were historical personages. The problem Lane has here is that he is trying to use the principles of Logical Deduction to judge spiritual realities. The principles of Logic, as they were established in the 18th and 19th centuries, claim that all statements are either true, false or meaningless. Clearly David is trying to fit Paul's writings into one of these three categories.
"[...] Therefore, it is possible to prove these statements for ourselves inwardly, not publicly, and this is the foundation of the teachings of ECKANKAR. So when we say that we believe this statement is true, we are talking about a truth beyond physical proofs.
"[...] The lesson here, for the spiritual student, is to become aware of the difference between what one knows through one's own personal experience, and what one has accepted on faith from outer teaching. Once you have had inner encounters with the ECK Masters or other spiritual realities, it is important to establish within yourself whether this is a reality or not. If you cannot, you leave yourself open to the challenges of the scientists or the lawyers.
"[...] This means that, when studying the works of ECKANKAR, we should take what we find is useful and not worry about the rest. Remember, the writings of the ECK Masters are aimed at many different states of consciousness. [... .]"
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/kP7ml_Rh9lY/m/6CaYXfGiC4wJ
"[...] The only area that I don't think looks good is Paul's lack of crediting his sources, to the point of making it look like he, or Rebazar Tarzs, was the original source. This looks especially bad these days, since copyright law has become much more controlled and publicized. However, it doesn't appear to have been much of a problem while Paul was alive. [... .]"
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/Er0VHRTk_sc/m/NQYn-wQ00FIJ
1998
"Paul fictionalized his accounts, because he was an experienced writer and knew that stories were far more effective than lectures. Paul set himself up as simply a seeker, in The Tiger's Fang, because he knew from experience that people learn very differently from those who come across as authorities, than from someone who they can identify with, who is describing a personal experience. He created the dialog with Rebazar Tarzs, in The Far Country, because this was a much more effective and interesting way of communicating, than simply pontificating."
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.religion.eckankar/cHzE0Cdcfy4/M6ZJAPyvTNsJ
"[...] And no matter what anyone might do, organizations will always look after themselves. Organizations can not act any other way when they are leading.
"This is why the inner connection to Spirit, the ECK, is the only thing that we can rely on. [...]
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/flPIG63ZhWM/m/8xOvqxhQSasJ
"And if the teaching is sincere about the spiritual path, it needs to point out over and over again its own limitations in its outer form. [... .]"
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/flPIG63ZhWM/m/8xOvqxhQSasJ
[...] My opinion, Dave, since you have expressed yours above, is that the only person we should try to keep on a hook is our own selves. We should take full responsibility for everything we create, and we should try to be conscious and aware of our own decisions. This leaves us free to continue on with our lives, and not get hung up on how someone else's choices might have affected our lives, which are things of the past. [... .]"
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/GBwgDKAztbI/m/zAJCPXv-SP8J
"Strange as it may seem today, back when Paul began writing his books, such as The Far Country, the creation of myth was still seen as a necessary requirement of most spiritual paths."
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/GBwgDKAztbI/m/zAJCPXv-SP8J
"[...] I, for one, love the differences. That we would make different choices, I think is fascinating and makes for interesting discussions and debates. But the painting of each other as if one side is wrong, and the other is right, does surprise me, because I think we all have learned early on in our spiritual search, that the Social Conscience, where the wordly ideas of right and wrong are bandied about, must be abandoned if we are going to find real Truth. [... .]"
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/XyM6OgFl9zI/m/dHTqQiQmD3wJ
Did I miss this one?
April 1997
"As a story of historical fact, Paul's story may not hold up very well. But that is not what it was meant for. It was intended for connecting us to a reality that is more real than any historical fact."
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/MjYZWtvIOvk/m/yOT69_X5CAAJ
Looks to me like Doug Marman "BARGAINING STAGE" 101.
Oh. I see. Already listed that quote.
"What your opinion is, and what my opinion is, really isn't that important. They might be important to us, but why is it important for us to broadcast what our opinion is?" - Doug Marman
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/uMYdE7ODgNY/m/kH0CNEiiMT4J
Says that deluded Hypocrite Doug Marman who wrote a fucking 800 page book full to the brim with his precious opinions and guesses and assumptions INCLUDING UNTRUTHS AND LIES & MANIPULATION from his disrupted irrational thinking to broadcast all that to the world are 25 years of doing the same thing in other forums and here.
I'd hoped to list Doug's posts chronologically, but the sheer amount makes that overly tedious. Nonetheless, I'll add more as I come across them. For example:

"... Paul started copying when he started as a journalist. In the field of journalism at that time, copying was considered proper and was encouraged. This might surprise us today, but it was true back then. I saw this back in his writings in the 1940's, over 20 years before he met Gail. So, Paul didn't start copying to make Gail rich. [... .]"

https://groups.google.com/g/alt.religion.eckankar/c/oVPyrb930yk/m/GPZumrRRbewJ
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